Marcus Shapiro is a pioneer in the online fitness coaching space. In 2009, he launched FitForTrips.com to provide custom fitness programs specifically for hikers and backpackers. Since then, he has helped thousands of clients conquer hundreds of different trails all over the world including Kilimanjaro, Everest Base Camp, Rim to Rim Grand Canyon, Inca Trail, 13ers, 14ers, and more.

He believes that any hiker who executes his unique training strategy called the “Fit For Trips Big 5” can complete any trail safely and confidently.

Marcus holds a B.S. in Athletic Training from the University of Alabama and a CSCS from the National Strength and Conditioning Association and has over 30 years of personal training experience.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Marcus Shapiro about fitness tips for hikers.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How walking stairs is important for developing strength and endurance and people should focus less on time and more on elevation gain.

– Why the eccentric loading during downhill hikes requires proper foot placement and control.

– How proper foot placement and knee bending should be practiced to avoid overstriding when walking or running downhill reducing effort and main

– How incline training decreases the risk of developing acute tendonitis when hitting the trail.

– Why running on a treadmill is different than running outdoors.

 

Connect with Marcus:

Guest Contact Info

Instagram
@fitfortrips

Facebook
facebook.com/groups/HikingTrainingSolutions

Links Mentioned:
FitForTrips.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Xeroshoes.com

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

If you are not a hiker because you feel a little nervous, you don’t know what you’re going to encounter, you don’t know if you’re fit enough, you don’t know how to prepare, you don’t know what shoes to wear, anything like that, you are going to love this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first.

You know those things at the end of your legs that are your foundation? That’s what we focus on. That’s what I focus on.

Here, we also break down the propaganda, the mythology, and the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do, and to do that enjoyably effectively, efficiently.

Did I say enjoyably? It’s a trick question and anyone listening to this knows that because I know that you know that if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to keep it up. So make sure you’re doing something you enjoy. Otherwise, what’s the point? You know what I’m saying?

And I call this The MOVEMENT Movement podcast because we, and that includes me. I’m Steven Sashen, co-CEO and co-founder of Xero Shoes. Here’s the T-shirt to prove it.

And The MOVEMENT Movement is a thing that… Again, we are creating to move the idea about natural movement out into the real world. Natural movement. It’s just letting your body do what it’s made to do. Not getting in the way of that, just helping it.

And the way we do that is really simple. You can go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. There’s nothing you need to do to join. There’s no secret handshake, there’s no song, there’s no money involved. That’s just a site where you can find the previous episodes, how to find us on social media. And if you’re not happy with where you found this podcast, a new place to find this podcast, if you’re in for that.

And all you need to do to help is give us a good review or give us a thumbs up or a like, or hit the bell icon on YouTube or subscribe to get hear about new episodes, you know the drill. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe.

So let us get started. Marcus, first of all, hey, how are you? Secondly, tell people who you are and what you’re doing here.

Marcus Shapiro:

Good. I’m doing great.

So Marcus Shapiro, I am a hiking strength and conditioning coach. I founded fitfortrips.com back in 2009. And I also think of myself as a hiking evangelist.

My current business model since 2009 is I wait for people to come to me who want to hike iconic destinations, whether it’s summiting Kilimanjaro or Rim-to-Rim, Grand Canyon, Inca Trail, wherever it is, they come to me and they ask if I can help them get in shape, which of course I can.

But as of late, I’m very confident with the formula and the philosophy after all of these years to train people and get them in shape for hiking that I really want to reach out to people who are sitting there listening, your listeners, and say, “Hey, if you want to go on an iconic hike, whether you’ve thought it was too challenging, I want to assure you that you can do it and I have the tools,” and hopefully, that’s what we’ll get into very shortly.

Steven Sashen:

What the hell? Why not?

So for people who are not looking for an iconic hike, who are just trying to get into hiking because it’s all the rage since COVID. That’s when people realized they had nothing else to do but go outside and if they could get a hike and they could do it. Some people did that. Some people were again anxious about doing that for whatever reason.

I know around here, some people get anxious because we’ve got wildlife and they don’t know which bear you run from and which bear you fight from, or which thing you try to be big for and which thing you’re trying to be small for.

And my God, I was actually in Park City, Utah just last week and I couldn’t sleep and I got up at 4:00 in the morning and started taking a walk. And the number of times where I turned around just to make sure there was nothing behind me was pretty hot because there’s a lot of wildlife up there too. And I’m walking around during their daytime. So people need to know what to do about that.

But before we get into all of that, or actually, let me just leave… That was really a long way of asking the question. So we’re going to be talking about things that are relevant for humans, not looking for an iconic hike as well, correct?

Marcus Shapiro:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Perfect.

Marcus Shapiro:

We’re talking… I don’t care if it’s local, I don’t care if it’s domestic, I don’t care if it’s international, it doesn’t matter. And oftentimes, you bring up a good point, you just want to start in your backyard and just start there. Sure.

Steven Sashen:

I would like to walk on the moon. Just say.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay.

Steven Sashen:

So we’re-

Marcus Shapiro:

Well, I don’t know that I can help you with that, but…

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s nice having you on the podcast. Really good luck going.

Marcus Shapiro:

All right. Great.

Steven Sashen:

All right. So, so, so. I’ve got to ask this question. Where are you living that you are a hiking person? Does that really happen with someone living in Manhattan?

Marcus Shapiro:

It would be tough, but a lot of people in Manhattan also dream of doing big hikes like summiting Kilimanjaro and that can be done. And that’s something we can talk about that if you don’t live where I live and that’s in just north of Atlanta, so we have the North Georgia Mountains not too far from here. And there’s some great hikes also along the Chattahoochee River, not too far from here, but people in Manhattan who are busy do not have access to hiking trails could be very successful on even some of the most challenging-

Steven Sashen:

Well-

Marcus Shapiro:

… hikes.

Steven Sashen:

I lived in Manhattan for 10 years. My wife had never been until very recently. And I think on our second to last trip, we spent the entire day doing Central Park and there’s parts of the north end of Central Park that you can make a serious hike out of those. It’s really, really fun.

And I think it’s so cute having grown up on the East Coast and now living in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains that we use the word mountains for the Rockies and for those little things near where you live that never use that word.

Marcus Shapiro:

Are you saying something bad about our North Georgia Mountains? Oh.

Steven Sashen:

I am. That-

Marcus Shapiro:

Just kidding. I love the Rockies. I love the Rockies-

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. No. I absolutely am.

Marcus Shapiro:

I was just out there.

Steven Sashen:

It’s like I have friends who live in upstate New York who have a couple of “skiing mountains” near them and then they come out here and realize they had no idea what they were talking about.

Marcus Shapiro:

I get it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, so then… But I’m curious personally, just for the fun of that, before we get into the specifics for helping people learn what they need to do to prep and have a successful and enjoyable time, what’s your hiking history? How did this happen for you?

Marcus Shapiro:

So let’s go back to I guess… Let’s actually go back to the late eighties. Okay? Because I think that’s where the story begins.

Steven Sashen:

If we’re going to go back, we have to do it Wayne’s World style.

Marcus Shapiro:

You got the hair for it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, no… That’s true. We got to do it Wayne’s World style. And I go, “Doo, doo, doo. Doo, doo, doo. Doo, doo, doo.”

Marcus Shapiro:

I think that’s it.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. So now we’re back in the late eighties.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. So let’s go back to there.

So in high school, I was fascinated with bodybuilding, working out. We had… Think of Arnold Schwarzenegger. He had just won Mr. Olympia in 1980 and so there was this influence that he still had all the way through the eighties and of course, beyond that. I was just fascinated with working out. But not just that, but also the science behind it, the rigor, the discipline. So when I graduated from high school, I went to University of Alabama and I wanted to continue that journey, I guess let’s just call it in human performance.

Bodybuilding was fun. It was a hobby, but now it’s time to think about what I was going to do for a living.

So I go to University of Alabama and I study athletic training, which is a misnomer. Athletic training is really… We are the first responders, whether it’s on the basketball court, the football field, the baseball diamond, whatever it is. So our jobs is more injury prevention, number one, and treatment and rehabilitation was another. So that was interesting to me. So that started putting the pieces of the puzzle together.

So then let’s fast forward to let’s say ’98, ’99, 2000, I meet my wife, my current wife in ’97, and she had the travel bug which I hadn’t yet had. So we traveled to Africa, we did safaris, which I’m sorry to say, nothing will ever compare to the African safari. So I’ve already peaked in terms of my travel. But anyway, we went to Costa Rica and we did Galapagos, we did a lot of things.

So go back one second to ’93. So ’93 is when I graduate, I start doing personal training. So that’s about seven years to ’93 to 2000. At that point, it’s time that ambitious bug kicked in. It’s like, “What am I going to do? I can keep doing personal training, I love it, but I’m going to broaden what it is that I do.”

So I could have done more what I was trained for, working with football players and basketball players and tennis players, more of the traditional sports. But having traveled, I thought to myself, “I bet there’s really a void in this space for people who want to get in shape for these trips.” Although our trips weren’t that physical, it was something that I was actually interested in getting more into.

So back in the day… Okay, so imagine, let’s go back now to let’s say 2000. Let’s fast forward, let’s go to 2006, and if I lose you, let me know. Okay?

Steven Sashen:

Okay. Well, I don’t know the Wayne’s World thing to go forward. I only know going backwards, so we won’t make any sound effects.

Marcus Shapiro:

All right.

So 2006, I really decide that this is what I want to do. So I go online and I see what the recommendations are for hiking, getting in fit for hiking, getting in shape. So I see online that they’re recommending three times a week on the StairMaster or for 45 minutes or throw on a backpack and go backpacking which most people do not have access to. Okay. So that’s 2006.

So I then find some tour operators and I call the founders of the tour operators and I pitched my idea. I said, “How would you like me to help your clients with getting fit for your hikes?” And I had a tape recorder. Remember those things? And I hooked it up to the telephone and I’d hit record and I would record our conversation.

Steven Sashen:

Isn’t that… Hold on. And the telephone, that’s not the app on your phone, it’s a different thing. It’s the thing. Wait-

Marcus Shapiro:

No.

Steven Sashen:

… did you have your phone sitting on top of, what’s it called, a phone book? Was that the term they used?

Marcus Shapiro:

Yes. Yes. Yes, yes.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

I use phone books now to step on and off with duct tape around them.

Steven Sashen:

Dude, I tried to find a phone book to do a video that I wanted to do about proper landing form and I had to get on eBay to find a phone book.

Marcus Shapiro:

Wow.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

I don’t miss them though. I don’t know about you.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, I totally do. Because I remember…

Marcus Shapiro:

You do.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I do. I do. Not for specific things.

I remember being a kid and you could just find someone’s address. So you look up their name, there’s their phone number and their address. It was really, really helpful.

You can’t get all that now. You can maybe get their phone number, probably not because it’s a cell phone and blah, blah, blah. But I don’t know. There’s something…

I also miss having my World Book Encyclopedias, but that’s a whole other story.

Marcus Shapiro:

That is. That is.

Steven Sashen:

You know what it is?

Marcus Shapiro:

I definitely-

Steven Sashen:

It’s like going to a bookstore and browsing. So you can’t browse anymore. And I miss browsing.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. Well-

Steven Sashen:

Anyway, anyway.

Marcus Shapiro:

… that’s what separates you and me. But we have a lot more in common, I can tell you that.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. So you’re recording things on your answering machine?

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah. Because I need to go back and see what they said, see if I get any inspiration from it. And I quickly decide this is what I want to do.

So I joined what’s called the Adventure Travel Trade Association and I go to an ATTA summit in 2006 to Seattle which is an amazing, amazing event. And they’ve done many since then and they continue to do it.

And so I go as a service provider to talk to all the tour operators. I have everybody’s name and all the founders and the tour operators so that I can again make my pitch.

So long story short from now, at that point, I hired some software developers. I’ve got proprietary software that I’m going to develop so I can do online personal training. And this is back now, we’re more than 2007, 2008, get all that done and launch in 2009.

And I’ll mention the company, my first partner was Thomson Safaris. They’re near and dear to my heart, so I have to mention them.

And so that’s the origin story, me bouncing around everywhere for Fit For Trips. That’s how I got started with that. So I’ll let you take it.

Steven Sashen:

All right. So the magic question then is what’s the program that you developed for these people? And what’d you learn from talking to them? What was the kind of key thing from listening to those recordings and what’d you develop and how were you deploying that? How were you sharing that with people?

Marcus Shapiro:

Well, the tour operators are focused on selling and booking trips, so they don’t have the expertise. So when they’re screening somebody on the phone, instead of saying, “Well, I’m not sure that you should do one of our trips. Or in fact, how about doing a lesser challenging itinerary?” Instead, they would be able to leverage my expertise and say, “We have somebody who you can talk to if you want to do this trip.” So from there, there just wasn’t that much information. But I had a good intuition on how to begin to craft programs.

Steven Sashen:

So when-

Marcus Shapiro:

But I think… Yeah, go ahead.

Steven Sashen:

So when you started putting that program together, I want to hear the evolution of that, but let’s just start with what was the first thing you put together? How were people responding to that? What kind of feedback were you getting and how did that lead to the evolution of it?

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah. So originally, when I first started putting them together, it was very heavily strength based which was something obviously familiar with.

Steven Sashen:

What specifically?

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. So lunges… Let’s think of functional type… Let’s think of movements that mimic what it is that you do. So step ups and walking lunges, even squats, which of course does not exactly look like something you would do on the mountain unless you have to go to the bathroom. Then you’d want to do calf raises and things like that.

And of course, there was an endurance component to it. So they would need to walk X amount of time, they would do a lot of HIIT training and stairs and those kinds of things. But that’s where it’s really evolved since then. And that’s probably-

Steven Sashen:

So I’m curious to hear it evolve, but before I get there, I’m curious, what was your experience with compliance? You’re telling people what to do. How were you monitoring that? Were they actually doing it? This is always the issue when you give someone an exercise program. Are they actually going to do it?

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Well, first of all, their motivation is a little different. And that is they’ve already booked the trip.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Marcus Shapiro:

So they have a goal in the end, and I’m pretty sure that you can relate or a lot of your listeners can relate and that is sometimes it’s hard to kick start a workout because you don’t have an actual goal.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

So they have booked their trip. So there’s a lot on the line. So compliance for these types of people wasn’t that hard.

But with the proprietary software I had developed, people… I go ahead and I craft their program week by week, they fill in what they did, I look at it. Based on what they’ve done, then I will go ahead and craft the following week and so on and so forth. And most people I worked with for about 12 weeks.

So there was compliance because I told them what to do and they had that goal at the end that they were of course really excited about.

Steven Sashen:

And so then let’s talk about the evolution then, what you learned from doing that in the early days and what it’s turned into now?

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. So it’s evolved into what I call the Fit For Trips big five. So it starts with walking stairs and we’ll get into the detail of each. So you want to walk stairs, you want to walk inclines, you want to walk lunges which is a catchall term for strength in the legs. You want to walk far, that’s number four. And then five is HIIT training. So I don’t have a clever one for that. So if you can come up with one, let me know.

Steven Sashen:

You want to walk short, fast, and repeat. You want to lather, rinse, and repeat.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah, yeah. Right.

So how about I go into the detail of each of those?

Steven Sashen:

That would be perfect.

Marcus Shapiro:

So let’s talk about walking stairs and why that’s important.

So when you’re walking upstairs and you do it repetitively, you’re going to develop strength and you’re going to develop endurance. If your listeners can-

Steven Sashen:

Wait, let me pause. Even when you just say walking stairs, if you want to be more specific about, other than just going up a flight of stairs, it’s obviously different than just that. Say a little more if you could.

Marcus Shapiro:

Well, yes and no. You could literally just walk up and down stairs. If you’re tall, you’re going to probably want to take two stairs at a time. But what’s most important with stairs is once you get started and you acclimate to the act of walking up and down stairs, and we’ll get to the importance of going downstairs in a second, but once you acclimate to that, then what you’re going to do is you’re going to focus less on time.

Let’s say I’ve never done stairs before so I’ll start 10 to 15 minutes, see how you respond to it, see what feedback I get in my knees and in my hips and quads and everything like that. And then from there, then you start doing it based on elevation gain. Okay? So I’ll give you an example.

If you have 30 stairs to go up and down and they’re eight inches a piece and you do 50 laps up and down, 50 times, that’ll be a thousand feet of elevation gain. So now all of a sudden it starts to make sense to people.

It’s not just this rote activity of just up and down which let’s just call that an evolution of it because as far as I know, on my website, I couldn’t find it before but I created… I had somebody develop a calculator for me. So you go on there, you put in the height of your stairs, how many stairs and how many laps, it’s going to tell you how much feet of elevation gain that you get because that’s really important. You’ve got to relate that back to your itinerary. Otherwise, it just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Steven Sashen:

I just thought of a product that someone should do, you in particular, ready?

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay.

Steven Sashen:

So it’s augmented reality thing that basically combines what you’re doing, takes your stairs basically, and overlays on them. So you’re using AR glasses, so it actually looks like you’re hiking something. But because it’s AR, it knows basically to put a rock where every step is and if you have a landing, then it knows there’s a thing.

And what it would do is instead of just having you up and then all the way back down and then all the way back up, all the way back down, it could have you go down a little bit, then go back up, and then go down a little more and come back up, go all the way down. It could do something.

But the fun part would be where it just doesn’t seem as boring as just walking up and down your stairs over and over. So you’re getting some kind of VR/AR thing. So it feels like you’re actually going out and doing a hike. You could even do similar thing if you did it on a treadmill, frankly. But anyway, that’s my idea of the day.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. Well, I’ll start with raising money now. So how much do you got for that?

Steven Sashen:

Perfect, perfect.

Marcus Shapiro:

You’re my first pitch.

Okay. Well, here’s the thing. I talked to people about that, about how it might be boring, but everybody gets it. It’s a means to an end. And nowadays people can throw on The MOVEMENT Movement podcast and hit the stairs.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, what was I thinking of? Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

You know?

Steven Sashen:

Agreed. All right, so what’s our next principle?

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. Well, let’s talk about going downstairs-

Steven Sashen:

Oh, yeah. Let’s.

Marcus Shapiro:

… because that’s critical.

Yeah. So it’s easy to train… I shouldn’t say it’s easy. The fundamentals for going uphill aren’t that difficult. You just have to put in the hard work.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

Which is why people might want to do… Well, I’m going to jump ahead. So let’s do this. Let’s talk about going downhill.

People going downhill, they might feel less surefooted, they might feel pain in their knees, their quads might cramp. And so by going downhill, you’re developing what’s called eccentric control.

So every time you’re going down the stairs, you are putting on the brakes essentially. So it’s a different kind of contraction than going uphill. And you have to do… You really do have to do both.

And I tell people, I’m like, “Even if you have one flight of stairs, it’s really… The carryover is really significant and it’s important to do.”

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. People don’t understand that… They finish a hike and they’re all sore, that’s mostly from the downhill part because the eccentric loading is just way harder. And now, granted, you’re stronger eccentrically, but if you’re not used to it, that’s just going to be way harder than what you’re doing going uphill.

Mostly in part because I notice when people are going downhill, they just tend to throw their foot out and just land on it and they’re not really thinking about it like in this… I’m trying to think… This is going to sound weird, thinking about it like the opposite of going uphill.

So what I mean is when you go uphill, you place your foot, then you change your weight onto that foot, and then you press out. You’re basically doing a single leg squat for all practical purposes. But people don’t think about that when they’re going downhill. They just slam their foot into the ground and then they’re not controlling it on the way down which is putting even more strength. So that’s-

Marcus Shapiro:

Exactly.

Yeah. I think good analogy I’ve used before is if you don’t have eccentric control, you’re going to take a step and then let’s say your brakes go out and all of a sudden you’re just going to go forward and then you’re going to stumble. And so really, it’s a breaking system.

Steven Sashen:

Well, there’s another one just from the people that I talked to where they understand the idea of running or walking and not overstriding, not putting your foot too far out in front of you, which means putting the brakes on when you’re walking or running.

Same thing when you’re hiking actually. If you’re putting your foot too far out in front of you, you’re having to spend more effort to get over your front foot than having it underneath you.

But even more going downhill, people will say to me, “Well, how do I prevent my foot from sliding forward in the shoe or in the sandal?” It’s like, “Well, don’t put your foot way out in front of you when you’re going down. Put your foot underneath you and bend your knees. Use your legs instead of just throwing your foot out way in front of you.”

Marcus Shapiro:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

And people are like, “Oh, I could do that?” It’s like, “Yeah, yeah.”

Marcus Shapiro:

Yes, absolutely.

All right. So we’ll go to… How about we go to the second one? Dig deep into that.

So we went from walking stairs to walking inclines.

Steven Sashen:

Yep.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. So you’ve got to walk inclines because you’ve got to lengthen and strengthen your Achilles and your calf and your plantar fascia. And now I’m talking your language. So that’s very important.

So you can do treadmill. It’s not so much an or treadmill or actually hills, repeats, or if you’re lucky to have hiking with hills, they’re both important. But I would say to people, you can diversify.

Now, some people don’t have access to hills and inclines and hills and hiking, but they could still lengthen and strengthen their Achilles and calf and that’s, I think, important to note because you can do stairs and you can get a standing and descending, but you don’t get that stretch on your Achilles and calfs. So if you don’t do the inclines, you might hit the trail and you can develop some acute tendonitis or something like that, that’s not cool.

And the other thing too is when it comes to treadmill verse actually going up a hill, we can work together on what ground reaction forces are explaining to your audience. But-

Steven Sashen:

Well, no. The simpler thing is this, talk to anyone who has spent the winter running on a treadmill and then it’s the first nice day and they go out and they can’t figure out why they can’t run.

Now there’s research showing that the way your body is moving is fundamentally the same, but what your muscles are doing completely different because the treadmill, you can just catch the treadmill and then it’ll take your leg behind you, you’ll get off. Again, you’re running the same-

Marcus Shapiro:

Exactly.

Steven Sashen:

… but you’re not using your muscles the same way. And it’s…

It reminds me when I was in high school, I was a gymnast, and one summer, I was at gymnastics camp and I broke my foot. And I’m thinking while I’m in a cast, I’ll just do a whole bunch of strength moves which will just be great because I got this three-pound, five-pound weight at the end of my leg. And so I got really good at doing all these strength moves. And then when my cast came off, I couldn’t do them because I could only do them out of balance.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Absolutely.

So that then takes us back real quick to stairs. People ask me, “Well, hey Marcus, well, what if I just do StairMaster?” And you don’t get those same forces. It’s not the same thing.

Steven Sashen:

Not the same. It’s not the same.

Marcus Shapiro:

It’s… The treadmill, you’re keeping up with it, you’re not producing… You’re not actually moving forward. It’s analogous to StairMaster versus stairs.

But there is a formula for StairMaster, by the way, for elevation gain. If somebody has to diversify and say, “Hey, I can’t get all my elevation gain on stairs and hiking.” Well, if you do a floor…

Let’s say you go 10 floors on a typical StairMaster or a step, the ones that go round and round. Okay? You multiply every floor by 10 feet. So a hundred floors, a thousand feet. FYI. Okay?

That’s important with the formula because keep in mind with hiking, we’re looking at the itinerary, what’s our total elevation gain, what’s our feet. So that’s why that’s important.

Okay. So let’s go to walk lunges. So walk stairs, walk inclines, walk lunges. So walking lunges, like I said earlier, it could be step ups. So walking lunges. And the reason why that’s important is because first of all, you want to work your muscles, your hips and knees through a full range of motion.

Let’s say you have to step up onto a high rock, an obstacle of some kind. If all you’re doing is used to striving on a hike or a treadmill, you’re not going to develop that full range of motion and full strength within that full range of motion. So that’s one reason.

And the other reason is you have to be able to recruit that energy system which I look at the opposite spectrum of… Let’s say you go for a hike and you’re going to do thousands and thousands of steps, but on a typical walking lines, you might fail at 30 steps. So that by itself can’t be the end all be all. So you’ve got to do both ends of the spectrum. So that’s that.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, actually, I want to pause there. So when you’re having people do walking lunges, talk about…

People have different opinions about how to do lunges. So there’s question of how deep you’re going. Are you letting your back knee touch the ground, or you’re not going that deep? Are you not having your knee go in front of your front toe? Are you keeping your body upright or not? There’s just a lot of different opinions and thoughts about form for lunges. Do you want to talk about that, please?

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So I don’t mind somebody… I actually prefer them to bring their knee all the way down to the ground.

Steven Sashen:

Back knee. Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

That’s where eccentric strength comes in because if you don’t have it, you’re just going to… When you do a lunge, your knee’s going to just hit the ground. So you have to be able to go down slow, tap your knee gently, and then come off the floor. So I’m okay with that.

I’m also okay… I think most of the time you want to try to keep your knee, let’s say, between over the front of your toe and ankle. Does that make sense? I think that’s where more percentage of your lunging times should be.

However, as an avid hiker, if maybe some people in your audience can imagine, your knee… There are just times when your knee’s going to go way over your toe or maybe you’re going to stumble a little bit. What happens when you stumble and you’re used to this pristine form? So sometimes, you just have to mix it up a little bit. And if your knee goes way over your toe sometimes, so be it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I think the bigger thing is people have been told, and I would argue incorrectly so, that if your knee’s going way over your toe, that’s a problem. And so there’s a lot of people who are just afraid and not realizing that it’s a viable thing. You don’t need to be afraid of and it’s very doable.

Marcus Shapiro:

Sure. Yes. Okay.

So let’s go to the fifth one. So now let’s talk about HIIT training. So HIIT training.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, wait, hold on, wait, hold on. You got stairs, incline, lunges. Did we miss something?

Marcus Shapiro:

Far. Ah.

Steven Sashen:

Far.

Marcus Shapiro:

Good man.

Steven Sashen:

Ha.

Marcus Shapiro:

See that’s why you’re the host and I’m the guest.

Okay. So yeah. Walking far, exactly.

So walking far is important. I alluded to it just a little bit earlier. So you can’t just focus on all high intensity exercises. Hiking in general is more of a lower intensity endeavor.

But your goal is to make sure that after thousands of steps per week and from week to week, that you really develop strength in the soft tissue and in your bones and your ligaments and your tendons and your muscles, and that over thousands and thousands of steps will give you more of that, will provide that for you. Whereas just strictly doing HIIT training which might last for 10 minutes total, let’s just say, of high intensity to work total. It’s not going to work.

So when I say walking far, a lot of times in the program, it’s usually one time a week like a long walk or hike on the weekend, whereas during the week, it’s more of your shorter workouts.

And that’s just evolved over time because people are busy. It’s just the way it is. It’s just how it works. Walking far.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. Number five.

Marcus Shapiro:

Got it. Okay. HIIT. I was so excited I wanted to get to HIIT training. So here we are.

So HIIT training isn’t always critical. Where it is critical-

Steven Sashen:

Let’s pause for probably the very few people who don’t know. HIIT, H-I-I-T, high intensity interval training.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yes. Okay, thank you.

Yeah. HIIT training is… Yeah, I guess not everybody knows about it, but backtrack one second. Do you remember the HIIT training rage where it’s all you had to do is HIIT training?

Steven Sashen:

Oh, yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

You have to do nothing else. Remember that?

Steven Sashen:

Oh, yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

Were you buying into that back in the day?

Steven Sashen:

Well, dude, I’m a sprinter. That’s all I ever do. I don’t do long distance. I don’t do slow. My workouts are all…

Here’s my argument about HIIT training. It can be a really good thing, especially if it’s not in your wheelhouse. So for the people for whom it seems to be most effective are people for whom they’re not used to going all out. But for sprinters, that’s all we do.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. That’s true.

Steven Sashen:

And my argument is that people who are wired for sprinting, HIIT training has no metabolic benefit because, again, that’s what we are wired to do.

Now, the only other problem I’ve seen with HIIT training, and there’s two, one is that people when they try to go all out with whatever they’re doing, their form tends to break down and they’re setting themselves up for injury if they’re, for example, running and decide to start sprinting but all they’re doing is their bad running form faster.

Or if you’re rowing… My God, I did a little bit of rowing. I watch people’s rowing form and it’s like, “No, you’re setting yourself up for back problems because you don’t actually know how to row. Now you’re just doing it worse faster.” I just see things like that over and over.

I don’t know about cycling so much. That’s a different story or can be a different story. But that’s that.

And the other thing, just for the fun of ranting for a second is that I hear people talk about HIIT training and they say, “Oh, sprint for 30 seconds, rest for 30 seconds and repeat that eight times.” I go, “Well, if you’re really sprinting, you can do that once, maybe twice.” They’re like, “Well, I don’t mean… You don’t have to get the same speed. Just go all out.” I’m, “No, seriously, I don’t think you get it. All out.”

If you go all out for 30 seconds, you should be dead and not being able to get up for 30 seconds later. If you can, what you’re doing may be going as fast as you can go but you’re not sprinting and you might not even be going all out, but you’re definitely not sprinting.

So finally, there was some 25-year-old guy who was saying, “Sprint 30 seconds, rest 30 seconds.” And I finally said to him, “When you sprint for 30 seconds, how far do you go?” And he says very proudly, “150 meters.” And I said, “I am well over twice your age and I go 250 meters. So whatever you’re doing is not sprinting. Call it whatever you want. But not that.” He was a little upset.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. He was humbled.

Steven Sashen:

No, he was upset. There was no humility at all.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. There is a difference.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. Right.

Steven Sashen:

So anyway.

Marcus Shapiro:

SO HIIT training is most important, I would say, for hikers that are going to experience high altitudes.

Steven Sashen:

Ah. Okay.

Marcus Shapiro:

So there’s a couple reasons. So one is it helps you tolerate just the discomfort that comes with being up at high altitudes. Your respirations are up, your heart rate’s up, and if you’re not comfortable with that, you haven’t experienced that before, you can panic from that situation.

And the other one is just from a physiological perspective and that is when we talk… I’ve mentioned energy systems and so when you’re up that high, there’s very little oxygen. So to produce energy, you have to recruit the ability to generate energy in any way that you can. And I’d say if you’ve left out HIIT training, it’s just one more tool in your arsenal-

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

Marcus Shapiro:

… where it’s important to do.

Steven Sashen:

So let me throw a couple of other things in the mix to see what your take is on that. Since you mentioned altitude, for any of the trips where people are going to be experiencing massive altitude change, not even change, it’s going to be at altitude.

My God. When I first moved from New York City to Colorado for the first month I was here, I thought my bike was broken because I just could not breathe enough to get any energy to move my bike.

Marcus Shapiro:

Right.

Steven Sashen:

Do you do anything or ever recommend things like hyperbaric or hypobaric training?

Marcus Shapiro:

It’s not practical. I wouldn’t discourage somebody from doing it.

In fact, I just started working with somebody a couple of days ago who’s doing Kili and they asked me that question. I said, “Look,” I said, “Let me first tell you that none of my… Very few percentage of my clients ever do that and they’re very successful at summiting Kili and even Everest base camp and things like that.”

I said, “But I don’t want to discourage you from doing it. If it’s something you want to do, it’s certainly not going to hurt. But you’ve got to do it in the right doses and you have to follow the instructions and…”

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Look, this was an unofficial hypobaric oxygen training thing that I did the first time I came to Colorado and I went… I’m coming straight from sea level and I ended up in Breckenridge at about 11,000 feet. And the second night I was there, I just woke up just gasping for air in the middle of the night. And it was the kind of thing where they had oxygen at the top of every flight of stairs which at first I looked at that and thought, “Well, that’s silly.” And on day three, I had a long flight of stairs and I just needed to suck on a tank for a couple seconds. So it was shocking to me.

All right. So then here’s another hiking accessory that I’m wondering what your take is which is poles.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yes. I’m a believer.

Steven Sashen:

Huh. Interesting.

Marcus Shapiro:

I’m a believer. Well, let’s just put it this way. Yeah. So let me just tell you a story. I never used poles.

Steven Sashen:

Okay.

Marcus Shapiro:

I never used poles until my last trip. So we went to Aspen. And I don’t like training with poles, I don’t like using poles. I like having my hands free. I can just crush it with my quads and my legs and I’m just like a mule. I can just go for it. And everyone else is using poles that I hike with and everything and that’s great, and I’m okay with that.

But we were going to an Aspen trip where we were going to do a warmup hike and then we’re going to do a Mount Sopris which is 13,000 feet of elevation gain and then we were going to do Castle Peak which is 14,000 feet of elevation, not elevation gain-… I’m sorry, altitude.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s not elevation gain. Altitude.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good call. Right. Altitude.

So on a layover, I must’ve picked up something, some kind of bug or something like that. So we do our first hike, which is an easy hike, and it’s supposed to be easy and I’m feeling off.

Sorry, audience, I got to tell you. But I’ve got diarrhea. I don’t have much of an appetite, but I make it through, that’s fine.

But day two is we were going to do about 10 miles and 3500 feet of elevation gain, getting up to 13,000 feet. And so I was like, “I feel horrible. I feel horrible. I need every advantage I could get.”

So we went to the local outdoor store and I got myself some poles and I learned really quickly how to use them. And it wasn’t hard.

Steven Sashen:

You just froze.

Marcus Shapiro:

… and I would hike-

Steven Sashen:

So, wait, hold on. Wait.

Marcus Shapiro:

… that second day hike, once-

Steven Sashen:

Wait. Hold on for a second. Wait. You froze for a second. I don’t know if it was your or me, but you said you got some poles and you learned how to use them really quick. And then I lost you for about five seconds.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. All right. So used… Yeah, learned how to use them really quickly. And then two things got me to the top of Mount Sopris. One was the fact that I was in great shape, even though I didn’t feel good, I was able to work through it. Had I not had my poles with me, my quad would’ve been working so hard, my heart rate would’ve spiked so high that I’m not sure that I could have done it. And now I’m a believer.

And then definitely, day three… Day three was 10 miles and we were going to do… It was about 5500 feet of elevation gain based on where we were starting. And there’s no way that I would’ve made it without the hiking poles.

Here’s just… How about a quick lesson for your audience-

Steven Sashen:

You read my mind.

Marcus Shapiro:

… and that is… The other thing too… And tell me if you want to ask me more about the poles.

But I will say that if you are sick and you don’t feel good and you’d go on a hike, I’m not going to tell you not to do it. I’m stubborn. I was going to do it. Okay?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

But the issue is I was not eating and I didn’t know it. I didn’t know it. I told the guys ahead of me, I’m like, “I’m good enough.” I’m not good. Don’t mistake that for good enough. I’m not good, but I’m good enough. I can put one foot in front of the other. But I was back so far that I wasn’t eating and I didn’t know it.

So you’re supposed to eat about let’s say 200 plus calories every hour, especially on an aggressive hike, probably even more. Well, I didn’t have the appetite. I ate a little bit and I get to the top on I guess adrenaline. Come back down and then I just completely bonk.

And I’m feeling very vulnerable telling you this because I shouldn’t do this. But I’m all the wiser for it. So I feel like I should share it.

I should have been eating. I didn’t. I wasn’t aware of it. And I’m telling you, you should eat. Well, what happened was I couldn’t go any further. I had a serious case of hypoglycemia. Really bad. We’re talking waffling between vomiting and losing consciousness.

So in that moment, I knew what to do. So I had pretzels and I had potato chips and I was stuffing my face like the Cookie Monster. You could see it just going everywhere. I didn’t have the energy to chew. And then I had to drink water from my pack just to soften enough to swallow it. So I did potato chips, I did pretzels, I did a bar, I did two GuS, and I did one pack of what would be like gummy bears within five minutes. And I laid there and after 30 minutes, finally, I was able to get the energy and I was able to finish the rest of the five miles.

So just a tale for your audience there.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and this is Colorado. What was in those gummy bears?

Marcus Shapiro:

They weren’t gummy bears. They were… I’m trying to remember the name of it. But anyways, mostly sugar. There was some electrolytes in it. The sugar was the big thing. Had some electrolytes. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. See, around here, gummy bears means pot.

Marcus Shapiro:

Ah, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

So you might’ve had a pack of something, it seemed like gummy bears, and you thought you got down off the mountain, but you really hadn’t moved.

Marcus Shapiro:

Got it.

Steven Sashen:

So it’s entirely possible.

Marcus Shapiro:

No edibles on this trip.

Steven Sashen:

No edibles allowed.

Marcus Shapiro:

No edibles allowed.

Steven Sashen:

So do you want to give people the world’s fastest instruction or thoughts about getting used to poles? Because the first time I tried them, I thought they were dorky as crap and then I tried them and it’s like having a superpower. But similar to having bad walking form, you can have bad pole form where they’re not helping you as much or as well as they could. Do you want to chat about that?

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah. I think probably the easiest thing for someone to imagine is when you’re going uphill or flat, you want your elbows to be at 90 degrees. Okay? So you would adjust the poles so that your elbow is at 90 degrees. So make that adjustment. Okay.

If you’re going downhill, you want to lengthen the hiking poles, maybe few centimeters, and just experiment and see how that feels.

I’m trying to think what else.

The other thing with hiking poles too is you want to get one with a strap on it because you can put your hand through the top of the strap and then grab the handle. And what happens is the strap is underneath your wrist and so you’re not gripping the pole with a death grip because you’re form aware. You can almost just rest and push on the strap, if that makes sense.

Steven Sashen:

That’s clever. Yeah, I like that.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah. Makes a big difference.

Steven Sashen:

So I feel required by law, of course, to ask the simple question. Well, I’ll do it this way rather than a question. I’ll make it something of a statement/command. Let’s talk footwear.

Marcus Shapiro:

Ah, yes. And I actually have… You ready for show and tell?

Steven Sashen:

Oh, sure.

Marcus Shapiro:

You ready for show and tell? Okay.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah, buddy.

Steven Sashen:

And you’ll have to describe things for people who can’t see. You’ll have to describe what you’re showing. Okay, I’ll describe-

Marcus Shapiro:

Oh, okay. All right. So I’m holding the Prio here.

Steven Sashen:

Yep. That’s our Xero Shoes Prio.

Marcus Shapiro:

And you notice… Look at this. This is not a manufacturing defect. What I’m showing Steven is this right here. Do you see that right there?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So the collar, this part that goes around your ankle, the outside part of the collar. And it looks like you’ve beaten it up pretty good.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. Yeah. And by the way, I had to write down the date for this. I’ve owned these since May of ’21.

Steven Sashen:

Okay.

Marcus Shapiro:

And I wear them all the time. I should say that.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, I want to pause. Just say. I did not know this going into this conversation. So this is not a setup just for this. So anyway.

Marcus Shapiro:

That is correct.

By the way, I use these Prios for everything which we can get to in a second. But I also use them as my… I wear them around the campsite.

So we were in the Chicago Basin and luckily, it was our last day and we were going to hike out. And our shoes and our backpacks were sitting outside of our tent. Because we have small tents, we need the room. And we wake up and the backpack is completely destroyed. And luckily, they only tore the shoe laces and you can see this fringe right here. So they ate my Prios, kind of.

So I had-

Steven Sashen:

Wait. Do you know what they was? Who ate-

Marcus Shapiro:

I think it was a rodent that was getting the fibers for their nest.

Steven Sashen:

Wow.

Marcus Shapiro:

So the fibers are still there in Colorado.

Steven Sashen:

We have a pair of sandals that were attacked by an actual Tasmanian devil.

Marcus Shapiro:

Really?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Shredded. Shredded. It’s hysterical.

Marcus Shapiro:

So anyway, I wear these shoes and then you can ask me questions and we can… Whatever.

But I’m just going to tell you, I wear the Prios when I train in-person clients, I wear them when I do my treadmill work. I wear them when I do stairs. I wear them when I walk the dog. I wear them all the time. And then I would wear my Trail Mesas for my training hikes when I want to strengthen my feet.

When I went to Colorado, I was not confident enough that my feet were strong enough to be able to tolerate the granite. And I’ll say this, I had a pair of shoes, not going to name the manufacturer. We can do that offline if you want. I wore their shoes and in two days, the granite up there on those rocky mountains, they shredded. Shredded them. The soles were gone. So anyway… But that’s that.

What do you want to talk about with them?

Steven Sashen:

Well, there’s a couple of things, and I argue these are misconceptions. The first thing is people think when they’re hiking, they need a hiking boot for ankle support. And I say, “Well, if you have a shoe that’s got a stiff sole and you step on something not centered on your foot because you stepped on something off center, it’s going to make your foot twist and then your ankle’s going to twist. And there’s frankly nothing that can support that. But if you have a shoe that’s flexible, your foot can bend around it more and your ankle’s not as compromised and you’re fine.”

I’ve never hiked in an actual hiking boot. When I first came out here, I was hiking in running shoes because that’s all I wore if I was not wearing sandals of some sort and since we make stuff that’s super flexible. So I’ve never hiked in anything that wasn’t really flexible.

The other part is most hiking boots weigh, I think the technical term, this is a footwear term, they weigh a fucking ton. And so compared to our stuff that is sometimes half the weight and that’s a big deal. You’re taking a lot of steps, you’re lifting your foot up every time to do it. That actually really adds up. And people don’t appreciate that.

They also think they need a ton of cushioning and padding. And I’m not saying that you don’t need some or… Let me say it differently. You can get away with none if you really are paying attention to how you’re stepping and where you’re walking and how you’re using your feet and using the ground as part of the experience that are just trying to get over the ground.

But if you’re not there yet, if you haven’t had experience doing that, then yeah, you’re going to want something to take the bumps out a little bit. But I think that in the running shoe world where everything has gotten super maximalist and tons of cushioning and arch support and motion control, that none of those things actually work. There’s an even more insidious bit of propaganda about what you need for hiking.

And again, if you’re not ready for it, that’s one thing. It’s like when someone emails and says, “I got a marathon in six weeks. What shoes should I get?” It’s like, “No, no, no. Don’t do that. You’re not ready for that. Or you’re probably not ready for that.”

Switch to getting used to natural movement and then you’ll know when you’re ready to handle it. You’re going to build up your time, you’ll build up your distance. It’ll be clear. Don’t have some imagined goal in mind that you think you’re going to get to without having any information about how your body responds, how well your brain responds, how well your brain and your body respond, etc.

So anyway, that’s my rant about shoes.

Marcus Shapiro:

Well, I agree. I prefer not to have anything around my ankle. I like having the mobility.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Marcus Shapiro:

So the conventional wisdom is if you have a boot, you’re going to increase the stability around your ankle and I don’t think that holds up too well.

I do prefer to have the mobility because you feel different on the trail. It’s like… Walking on a trail is kind of an expression where you walk and you can take different parts of the trail, you can do it however you want it and take whatever steps around things, up on things, and it’s really kind of fun. When you do that… And you want to feel your feet moving and not having anything around your ankles is preferable.

I’ve worn boots before and what I do is I’ll tie them… I’ll lace them from the top and I’ll go as though they’re a shoe. Anyway. But I agree.

Steven Sashen:

It’s same thing. People who played basketball, they’re like, “I need the ankle support.” It’s like, “Well, you may have noticed that with all that ankle support, still the number one injury for basketball players is ankle sprains, right?” So it’s clearly not doing the thing that you think it’s doing.

And in fact, Kobe Bryant way back when did a video talking about what he thought the ultimate basketball shoe would be, and it was a low top. And he said, “You don’t need support. You need to have flexibility and strength in your ankles.” And of course what they made for him was a low top but then had everything else wrong about it. So that’s a whole other story.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. Right.

Steven Sashen:

So at least they did that part.

So anything else that you can think of for human beings who want to take any sort of hike in terms of both preparing or actually doing? I think the whole thing about getting nutrition along the way, hugely important. Very overlooked.

Here in Colorado, the other thing, people never bring enough water with them because they don’t anticipate how much they need at altitude with how dry it gets. That’s a problem.

By the way, your hypoglycemic story, I did a medical experiment where they literally injected me full of sugar and watched my insulin spike because they wanted to see how high it would go and then they gave me a little bit of insulin to see how quickly I got back to normal. And I went way past normal down to… I think my blood glucose was around 40 and that’s when I tapped out because I thought I was going to pass out and die.

And I was inhaling orange juice and lean cuisine meals for the next four days. My brain was going… You almost died because of lack of food. We’re going to make sure you got a ton of food. It was the most primal thing I’ve ever experienced in my life.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah. Oh, I can relate. It was very primal when I went through this. I don’t think… Yeah, it was scary-

Steven Sashen:

I’m sure.

Marcus Shapiro:

… but you stuff your face and you can get through it. You just don’t ever want to get there.

Steven Sashen:

P.S., I think the pretzel and potato chip diet will be our next project. So we have the AR/VR hiking training and then the pretzel-potato chip diet, which I know some people are already on it.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah, a lot of people.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s a good one.

Marcus Shapiro:

Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

Especially the barbecue. That’s a whole different game. Because you’re effectively getting vegetables with barbecue. That’s the way I see it.

Marcus Shapiro:

Let’s go with Cape Cod Kettle. Let’s go with that.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. All right. So wait, thin chips or thick chips?

Marcus Shapiro:

Thin. Well, crunchy. Crunchy. Crunchy. Like a kettle. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. But if you’re really going for crunchy, it’s got to be thicker. Come on.

And then, wait, have you had Maui Onion potato chips?

Marcus Shapiro:

No.

Steven Sashen:

Holy smokes. These things are crack.

So Lena and I, when we first saw them in Costco and bought whatever, you got a 20-pound bag, and they didn’t make it home. So they have some in our office, in our kitchen. I won’t go near them. I have no willpower at all with those. They are 100% crack.

Marcus Shapiro:

All right. So one more potato chip question.

Steven Sashen:

Okay.

Marcus Shapiro:

So is it chocolate then the potato chip? Do you end with the potato chip or do you go potato chip-chocolate or chocolate-potato chip? How do you add?

Steven Sashen:

Wow. That’s a good one. I would do potato chip-chocolate because that way I’ve still got the crunchy, salty thing going on in my brain.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Then I’m just adding that smooth chocolate part afterwards. Why we aren’t just talking about chocolate covered potato chips? I don’t know. But if I have to do it after the other, then I think that’s my order.

Marcus Shapiro:

Okay. That sounds good.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So all right, so anything else that you want to share that people should know for getting up and down the appropriate hill that they want to get up and down?

Marcus Shapiro:

Let’s see here. I think the will to do it and just remember the Fit For Trips big five. Listen to this again, listen to it. Just do it. Really just get out there and find a local trail, something that’s not aggressive, like an AllTrails app. They list them in terms of easy, moderate, and hard. So pick an easy one and just go for it and go with some friends or maybe a local hiking group.

And then you can get aggressive and get in shape and make a bucket… Make a list of hikes at some point. Go online, you’ll see a million of them, the top 10 hikes in the United States or whatever. Build your bucket list and then give me a call and let’s do this.

Steven Sashen:

Perfect. Well, if they are going to give you a call or just track down what you’ve been doing, tell people you’ve already mentioned it, but tell people again how they can find you.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah. So I think probably the best thing to do would be go to fitfortrips.com/consultation. I think the best thing is just have a conversation. So I’d love to chat with you guys.

And then the next thing is if you’re on Facebook, you could search for Hiking Training Solutions Facebook group, that way we can have a conversation. I moderate that and started that. A lot of other people chime in, so give that a go.

And then something else that I’m excited about that’s in its infancy stage is Badass Adventures Project. Okay. Badass Adventures Projects.

Steven Sashen:

Badass Adventure Projects, plural?

Marcus Shapiro:

Badass Adventures Project.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, so Badass Adventures.

Marcus Shapiro:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. Adventures is plural. Projects is plural.

Marcus Shapiro:

Right, right.

But this is a tease. So what happens… This goes back to what I said earlier, I feel like a hiking evangelist. I want to give people the confidence that they can hike. So people come to me to get fit because they already have a hike. But what I want… The Badass Adventures Project is the desire to challenge yourself and get out of your comfort zone. That’d be the primary thing and say, “Hey.” Was a conduit to do that, we’re developing itineraries and we’re developing training programs to go with those.

So the first and foremost is, “Hey, I need to get off my butt. I need to challenge myself. I’m feeling soft.” So hey, wow, I’ll use hiking as a conduit. It just so happens that the Badass Project is the way to go.

Steven Sashen:

I love it. I love it.

Marcus Shapiro:

But I’m just teasing it. We’ll talk… They’ll see that online at some point.

Steven Sashen:

Okay, perfect.

Well, Marcus, thank you. This has been definitely a pleasure and it has made me think of a couple of trails around here that I haven’t been on a way too long. I’m going to have to find a time to do that before the weather turns even more. It was 80 yesterday. It was 40 when I got out of bed this morning.

I was not happy with that because I’m not a cold weather person for whatever reason, even though living in Colorado, which is a fake out, because it gets cold here, and then it’s warm the next day and it’s sunny all the time. So you never know.

Anyway, that said, I hope people do take you up on your offer to have a little consult and find out what new, exciting adventure they can take that they didn’t think they were ready for. And of course, if you guys do that, let me know.

And speaking of letting me know, if you have any requests or comments or questions or suggestions to people who should be on the podcast, drop me an email. I’m at move, M-O-V-E, @jointhemovementmovement.com. And of course, feel free to go to jointhemovementmovement.com or yeah, jointhemovementmovement.com and find previous episodes of the podcast and other ways you can find us on social media and the places that you can get this podcast if you’re not happy with the one that you’re already using.

And most importantly, of course, just go out, have fun, and live life feet first.

 

 

 

 

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