Join The Movement Movement

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

One more for the road. Nike recently announced two new game changing products and we’re going to see if that’s a good game or a bad game. We have some special guests. We’re going to chat about this. Before we even introduce those. Let me just show you what we’re talking about. These are the two new Nike products. The first is the Nike Mind project and here’s what that looks like. I’ll show you more about it in a second. And then there’s also the Nike Amplify project and we’ll be talking about that as well. So. But let’s first see who’s joining us for this conversation. So I’m going to pick people in no particular order to introduce himself only because this is how it’s showing up on my screen and pardon the weird lighting that I have in my office. Courtney, would you tell people who you are and what you do?

Courtney Conley

Sure. My name is Courtney Conley. I am the founder of Gait Happens. So we are an education company on educating all things foot health.

Steven Sashen

That’ll work. And Irene Davis, you’re next.

Dr. Irene Davis

Hi Irene Davis. And I was the founding director of the Spalding National Running center up at Harvard Medical School. I’ve recently moved down to the University of South Florida where I’m a professor in the school of Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation Sciences in the Morsani College of Medicine, usf.

Steven Sashen

I just think the idea of moving from Harvard to Florida is so brilliant. Having spent one horrible week in Cambridge in February and wanted to shoot myself. So good on you. Jay Dicharry, you are next.

Jay Dicharry

Hi everybody, my name is Jay Dicharry. I’m a physical therapist, author, founder of Mobile Board and I’m part of the faculty here at Oregon State University in the PT program. And yeah, trying to get better information out to help you get better information to do all the things that helps you hit your goals.

Steven Sashen

Thank you. And you can’t see her on screen. I don’t know why, but Emily Splichal, tell people who you are.

Dr. Emily Splichal

Hi there. My name is Dr. Spickle, functional podiatrist, human movement specialist, educator on barefoot science and foot to core. I’m also the founder and CEO of Naboso, which is a sensory based product line that we use to stimulate the nerves in the bottom of the feet to support movement longevity that may be.

Steven Sashen

Appropriate for what we’re going to talk about. So let’s dive into the Nike Mind Project and start there. And just to give people a taste of what we’re talking about, I’m going to screen Share again and show what happens when you go to nike.com/mind. And so this is the main image that you’re going to see this video floating around and you can see it’s a shoe with these little balls in it that kind of move when you step on them. I’m going to scroll down. It’s a mind altering shoe. Activate your senses to enhance your pre game routine. And this is my. Well, we’re going to come back to this line here but I’m just going to highlight it now. Other shoes block sensation. Nike Mind technology amplifies. It works by engaging the sensory areas of your brain via the thousands of mechanoreceptors underfoot. And it’s a new way of connecting your body and brain. For your biggest moments. Engage your senses with the Nike Mine. It’ll help you get out of your head, connect with your surroundings and stay more present in the moment. I’m going to cut to another page to show you my favorite line though. These are the first shoes designed from the brain down, not the ground up. And there’s a line somewhere. I’m not sure if it’s in here. The idea is, well here these products are designed to have these 22 bright orange foam nodes designed to move when the wearer walks or runs. And, and this sends stimulation to the brain and improves concentration. There is a little more to it. There’s a line somewhere. I can’t remember where. They say that what they did is they figured out where to put those 22 little nodes based on what is providing the most stimulation to the brain. Where to begin. My God, I could jump in on this forever. But I’m going to let someone else take the first shot at it. Oh Donald, you know, just. And here. Don’t make me pick someone is what I was going to say.

Dr. Irene Davis

I was going to say, I think, I think Dr. Spico should be the first to go because of her sort of focus on this in this area.

Dr. Emily Splichal

Yeah, no, absolutely. Well one, the first thing that I would think about is the specificity of mechanoception is two point discrimination and then you have skin stretch and you have vibration.

Steven Sashen

Well, so let me, let me pause because they do mention somewhere in one of these articles that this is all about, oh here, wait, I’m going to back this up. I did find that quote and since you’re not on screen I’ll put this up and maybe I’ll scroll around as we do it. So let me go back to sharing and using sensory science. We mapped where the Feet are most sensitive. What’s called two point discrimination threshold and place the nodes accordingly. Um, so define what two point discrimination is and any thoughts you have about the placement of these 22 little soccer balls.

Dr. Emily Splichal

Yes. So that is definitely not two point discrimination. Two, two point discrimination through the Merkel disc, the SA1 Merkel disc in the bottom of the feet, the acuity is around 1 millimeter. So to be this large and that space is really not two point discrimination. It’s about. It’s like braille. So the acuity and the finite stimulus that your foot is actually looking for mirrors that of braille. That is why if anyone looks at the Naboso products, which we have a patent around, our texture is based around a 2 millimeter difference between these pyramid peaks. It has to be subtle and has to be finite for you to actually stimulate that.

Steven Sashen

You know, you give me a fun memory of when we were designing our first sandal and on the footbed, we had a very, very, very fine texture. And people put this thing on their foot and it’s like, oh, this is really annoying because they were so sensitive. Now keep in mind, actually you can’t see it from the video of the product, but those little balls, they kind of move in two and a half dimensions. So it’s not just straight up and down. If you press on them angle, that does a little something. But the part that cracks me up, starting with is there’s a whole lot of space in between those balls. So there’s a whole lot of information that’s not going anywhere and then wheeling up another. I want to see if I can get this other image that kind of cracks me up just about the discrimination component of things. And I’m looking for a better version of this picture. I’m looking at. Oh, open image in new tab. Let’s see if that works. This is. It’s one of my all time favorite words, the homunculus. And the homunculus is basically just a map of how your brain relates to your body. And we like to say that your feet, your soles, your feet have more sensory input than anywhere at your fingertips and your lips and mouth. But my favorite part about this is if you. And this is not a great image here, but if you kind of look at the way, the amount of information that is going to your feet, there’s more information going to your toes than the rest of your foot. But if we go back to the Nike mind image, there’s nothing happening at your toes. So they’re leaving out just a giant Chunk of where your brain is paying attention, by the way, if for people who are noticing the toes on your brain are very closely related to where your genitals are. So if you have a foot fetish, now you know why. Okay. Anyway. So. All right, Emily, thank you for that one. Who else wants to chime in on just this whole neurosensory thing? And starting from the brain down.

Dr. Irene Davis

Well, I. I would just like to ask the question. Show me the data. Right. So have they done research on the brain? Have they. Have they actually shown that their changes in the brain as a result of these shoes? I. I haven’t looked into it for far enough, but just wondering if anyone else here on the call has.

Steven Sashen

I’ve looked for the same and haven’t found it. I’ve just heard the comments that, you know, again, it’s the thing that stimulated the most brain activity. That’s where they decided to put these things, which seems improbable at best, especially again, considering how little of the sole of the foot those things are actually covering.

Dr. Irene Davis

Yeah, I mean, if they, if they, if they actually stimulated those parts of the foot and looked at brain activity, that’s different than having someone wear the shoe and looking at the brain activity.

Steven Sashen

Right.

Dr. Irene Davis

Completely different. So I don’t know whether they’ve actually looked at brain activity with a shoe because it could be doing absolutely nothing.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, there’s the other component, which is that the shoe is pretty thick, and so you’re not getting a whole lot of foot motion. So that’s going to affect what is or isn’t happening Again. And even more than whatever they might have done for looking at actual brain activity is how are they met or what was the person doing wearing the shoe while they were measuring that? Were they just literally standing on some unpleasant surface? Were they walking across something? I mean, there’s a line, I’ve got to find it again. I’m going to look for something while anyone else chimes in.

Jay Dicharry

Steve, I just say this. I mean, you know, if we can just not even talk about the shoe for a second. Like, whenever you’re trying to do anything to help a patient learn a new skill, we want to set them up in an environment for success. Right. That environment we look at deals with what they feel from a amount of sensory standpoint to sensation, deals with what we have going on. Distracting the brain. Right. Challenging the limbs. So we try and kind of meet the patient where they are. Right. And give them the best environment to succeed. And so, you know, when you look at, you know, people love to look at F1 these days, right? Like, you know, would you rather drive an F1 car down a track at 180 miles an hour or drive your grandpa’s Buick, Right? Like your grandpa’s Buick was very wobbly and unstable. Couldn’t feel very much. Couldn’t handle very well because you can’t feel what’s happening at the wheels. You’re probably not going to, you know, drive very well. Well, same thing. When you look at. If I want to improve some aspect of the way you move, I’m looking at giving you as much contact as possible, enough surface discrimination as possible, and really helping you be environment to suc. So that’s the definitions that we’ve had for sort of in the guiding principles we’ve had operating around human motor control for centuries, right. So, you know, now I’m going to ask, you know, what is the reason then to do what? Take away sensory input by putting people on soft sensory foam. We’re jacking them up off the ground. We’re muting sensation. We’re adding rockers around the ankle and the forefoot which change what happens biomechanically, you know, and look like these points aren’t anatomically designed. When I look at them, I’m like, oh, this is easy for their, you know, manufacturing process to stamp these pods in certain locations. They don’t correspond in any way to joint structure of the body. So, you know, I’m looking at the data. Yeah, let’s see some data. Because what you just did doesn’t basically uphold any truth and validity about how we look at motor learning and better environment for. For improving control.

Steven Sashen

So, in short, you can’t wait to get a pair. Did I get that right? While you’re saying that, I found a line that I wanted to highlight that cracks me up. In particular, I’m going to do this in reverse order. Well, I’ll do the whole thing. I’ll read it. For those of you who aren’t watching, Nike argues the mind range of footwear will give athletes many of this is a key line. Many of the benefits of being barefoot, but with much greater protection. So violating everything you were just saying about getting sensory input. And then there’s a quote. Barefoot gives you sensation but not protected support. Says one of the people from Nike. Nike mind delivers both. It reawakens your natural connection to the ground while still protecting the foot. It’s like being grounded and cushioned at the same time. Now, I’m not going to make this a commercial, but look behind me. I mean, what a shock that someone came up with this idea of letting your foot, you know, feel the ground and be protected at the same time. I wish we had come up with something like 16 years ago. I don’t know, some sort of flexible sandal to let your whole foot safely feel the ground. But, I mean, that would just be crazy. So. Oh. And then if we took that idea and turned it into a whole bunch of things that give you the right amount of protection for the activities you’re doing with support for things like. I mean, that would have been crazy if someone had come up with those ideas. But I’m not gonna. Not gonna make this a commercial. Courtney, do you wanna add anything to where we landed?

Courtney Conley

I’m always thinking about these things from a patient perspective. And when I see these types of products come out, I always think about what would. When my patients put them on their feet, what is going to happen? And to piggyback off what Jay was saying, all that cushion and stack height in the design of the shoe is kind of contradicting what they’re saying with, we want to increase sensory input, and we want to try to make this a better environment for the patient. But then they’re actually complicating things by making this. On this soft, squishy foam. So I’m imagining my patients starting to walk with this thing, and I’m. And I just don’t see how that’s going to go well for them.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. I want to come back to a line that I skipped over very briefly when we first looked at this, which is perhaps my favorite other shoes. Block sensation. Yeah. All of your other shoes and every other shoe made by any company that isn’t doing something. And I’m using big air quotes around the phrase barefoot, because anything that gets in between your foot and the ground is minimizing sensation to a certain amount. Undeniably. We would never argue otherwise. But, you know, our goal, like we say, barefoot is best, and when that’s not appropriate, you know, that’s why we’re here. And we want you to be as close to barefoot as you can. But I love this thing. Other shoes block sensation. What are you saying about the rest of your brand?

Dr. Irene Davis

Yeah, I was going to make the same point that, you know, they’re soft and squishy, but so are all their other new innovation, innovative shoes. Right. It’s. This is what it’s all about, is being soft and squishy.

Steven Sashen

We took soft and squishy and made it so you could feel a Little bit of something.

Dr. Irene Davis

And we don’t even know if you can feel a little bit of something. Have you put them on? Just has. Has anyone got their hands on a pair?

Steven Sashen

Not yet. I did watch a video of someone and he made a comment, it feels like I’m getting a little bit of a foot massage when I’m walking. Which I thought made sense. I don’t know how much because it didn’t look like I have a video somewhere. The amount of indentation, or for lack of a better. Because I can’t think of a better word at the footbed didn’t seem like very much. But it’s one of these things that I know from testing many, many products that over time you tend to acclimate to things anyway and you just stop noticing them. So what’s happening beyond that initial hit of like, oh, I can feel something that I wasn’t feeling before. Back to the whole brain thing and their pitch that what they’re promising is things like get out of your head, connect to your surroundings. I like connect to your surroundings in particular because the actual name of our corporate entity at Xero Shoes, our actual company name is feel the world. So they just did connect with your surroundings instead of taking the line of mind and then be more present in the moment. Again, this is not news to me. We hear from people when they are putting up. I’m not trying to make this commercial, I swear to God. But, you know, walk barefoot, just do it that way and see what happens with your presence in the moment. Because you’re suddenly getting information in your brain that you weren’t getting before stimulation. You weren’t getting before. Connect with your surroundings. How can you not when you’re getting this information? So again, the idea that they’re. I mean, this is what we’ve known for thousands of years. Your brain is connected to your feet with. What are these things called? I never get the word right. Is it nerves? Is that the. That the word.

Dr. Emily Splichal

If I can share. Something else that it makes me think of though, is that when you’re doing a new stimulus in an unstable. This is. Jay made me think of this like, let’s say I want to stand on a physio ball as an example. I will be forced to be more present because it’s unstable. So this kind of reminds me of like shape ups, flip flops, like things that used to push the individual to get higher. EMG activation. And then of course that was swayed in a different way or marketed different. So that’s. That’s also something that may be fun in a way for marketing, but of course there’s going to be more brain activation because you’re on an unstable surface.

Steven Sashen

Well, and what you just said makes me wonder. When Nike came out with the self lacing shoe, the back to the future shoe, it was really just a marketing play. I don’t know if they’re expecting this to sell a bajillion pairs or if it’s going to come and go in a season or, or what. It is one of those things that’s crazy enough looking that it could sell a bunch just because of that. And again, you know, I, I guess I should back up. I am so happy that they’re doing this because what they’re basically doing is validating what we’ve been saying for the last 16 years. So, and which makes me not nervous. People used to say to me what would happen if a big company started, you know, doing what you’re doing? I’d say then we won. We’re not here to become the next fill in the blank giant company. We’re here to change the world by giving people the reminding people and giving the opportunity to use their feet the way they’re meant to be used. So if this is the gateway to opening up this conversation about natural movement, I’m all for it. We can create a lot of content about the gap between what this thing is doing, high, inflexible, etc. And what any of the companies that are doing with natural movies. In fact, it just reminds me of what was happening in 2010 when in 2009 all the major footwear brands were saying this whole barefoot thing is complete bullshit. And by the end of 2010, they were coming out with, quote, minimalist shoes and using the same language that we were using for products that weren’t delivering the same benefits. But Irene, you know more about that because you were researching those.

Dr. Irene Davis

Well, I, the thing I worry about, Steven, I think you’re right, but people who are not educated in this area are going to jump to those shoes because they’re high tech, they’re cool, they’re new and they’re going to think that that’s the way to get the sensory input as opposed to, and they’re whole lot easier to adapt to, especially for running. Right. Because minimal shoes take some time. You know, you’ve got to build the capacity. And so I worry a little bit. I’m not happy about it. I, I just think that it, they’re just. What worries me is that it just seems like they really. And, and this, I’ll talk about this. The amplify too. They don’t really care about the sport of running. All they care about is marketing. Yeah, well, you know, I’m starting to really feel that way because the, the things that they’re doing are counterintuitive when you think like everyone’s saying about sensory input and you want to be as close to the ground as possible. So I do worry a little bit about how people might jump to it.

Steven Sashen

In 2010 I remember having arguments with physicians who were saying, oh, we’re seeing more patients ever from these people who are getting into barefoot running. And I’d say to them, when a patient came in to see you, did you actually ask if they were in bare feet? And they go, what do you mean? I go, well, were they running in bare feet or were they running in a pair of shoes that were sold as a barefoot shoe? Because in 2010 there were, there was actually only one, maybe one and a half truly quote barefoot shoes. And almost nobody was wearing those. I mean we were making sandals and those people weren’t going to doctors.

Dr. Irene Davis

But you know what, sorry to interrupt, but there was a problem in the beginning because if you look at some of the studies that, that, that talked about the injuries that were happening with the minimal shoes and some of them were the five fingers, it was, I mean they had no transition period. They jumped right to running. So I think the biggest problem there was that people didn’t real that these shoes are not just regular shoes and you have to build the capacity. Just like you wouldn’t go to the gym, lift 100 pounds the first time. I think that was the bigger problem with that.

Steven Sashen

Well, there was, there was another problem which was a statistical problem is let’s say for the sake of argument, people were getting injured. What rate were they getting injured at and how does that compare to the injury rates in regular shoes? And I all I can say anecdotally from the last 16 years is that we don’t hear from. Well, another page on the Nike website talks about a study they did back. I think they did the study in 2019 and it’s never been published. But a number of people on this call, including me, have copies of it where they their best selling running shoe injured 30.3% of the people wearing it in a 12 week half marathon training program. And a new shoe only injured 14 and a half percent. And the way this was publicized all around the world was new Nike shoe reduces injury rates by 52%. But my God, if we injured 14 and a half to 30% of the people wearing our shoes in 12 months, I’d be in jail right now, you know. And that’s the best you can do after 50 years of R and D? Something is very wrong with this picture. So the comparisons were never really made. And to your point, the trans. No, actually, it’s another thing that I would ask people when they said that running barefoot or minimal shoes causes injuries. Say, we’re not talking about footwear, we’re talking about form. Were you doing gait analysis of these people that you were looking at? I remember going to the lab at the University of Colorado and there was a whole article about this whole barefoot running thing because there was a researcher there, Dr. Roger Crom, who was doing research sponsored by Nike. And one of the picture, or the picture with one of these articles was someone running in bare feet, massively over striding and plantar flexing, pointing their toes. And if they’re actually running like that, they’re going to get a stress fracture. I mean, undeniably. So, you know, just the confusion about what this whole thing is or to your point, Irene, every time I see a study now that is a. Especially if it’s a quote, anti barefoot study, they’ll usually say something like, we gave the subjects time to acclimate to running barefoot by spending five minutes on a treadmill or something equally ridiculous. Or sorry, my last thought, I got too many. One of the first big conferences about barefoot running here in Boulder. A lot of pts were saying, well, it could take you five years to actually acclimate to doing this. And they were going on and on and on, just saying things that sounded completely absurd to me. And I finally raised my hand and said, how many people in this room other than me have run at least a mile in bare feet on a road on concrete? And no other hands went up. I said, you’re just making this up. You have no research yet. And now you’re just, you’re just, I mean, literally pulling out of your butt mostly to keep your own jobs. So it. Anyway, it’s. We’re just reliving. Literally. I just feel like we’ve gone back in time 16 years. It’s totally crazy. Before we move to amplify anybody else on anything else about mind.

Jay Dicharry

Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess I’d piggyback. It’s a Myrene said too. It’s like, you know, I look at. I think all of us in this call can kind of weed through some things a little bit and call bs.

Steven Sashen

And I think we live in a.

Jay Dicharry

World where people want things to be simple, right? And let’s just go back to this. If you’re calling this shoe the mind, right, you’re talking about some aspect of neuro behavior, right? How does my brain respond to sensory and how does it respond to output, right? And like I’m gonna kind of hope it pulls things together. What we’re saying is the environment that this shoe is putting you in is making it harder for you to feel. And biomechanically, it’s making harder for you to actually work, right? Those squishy massive marshmallows and that rocker underneath, pods or no pods. Right. Is not the way your foot’s designed to work. So again, if you’re back to what is happening at the mind, I mean man, PR firm, kudos to calling this right. But like you, you literally took the mind out of it. Okay. You’re putting people in position where it might be novel, might be different, right? But it’s not better. Right? And again, this is not me debating a shoe. This is basic debating like you know, undergrad, you know, understood theories of motor control and neuroscience and how we actually learn. And I think that, you know, if we’re going to give people better information how this happens, like let’s like you should see all those pieces of the puzzle being integrated, not phased out.

Steven Sashen

Well, given your point that this is making it harder, let’s move to Amplify, which is all about making it easier. So here’s. I’ll pull up a couple of things about amplify. So you can see it’s a little exoskeleton that is tied into a shoe. You can wear the shoe without the motor control part, but here’s what it says. Also unveiled by Nike prototype design. It is prototype. They don’t have a time for when they’re going to release this and I don’t know if they will or not. Who knows? A motorized exoskeleton like device that attaches to the lower leg provides power boost for running or walking by helping. I love this line. By helping to lift the wearer’s heel. Let’s put a bookmark there and come back to that. Let me find another thing about Amplify. The world’s first powered footwear system for running and walking. Designed to have help everyday athletes. And anyone who moves as an athlete is what they say, go a little farther, a little faster and farther, all with less effort. Let’s put a bookmark on that. Engineered to augment lower leg and Ankle movement Project Amplify system breaks the perception of possibility. Great line. By providing an unparalleled boost to anyone who wants to move, creating a new future for running, jogging and walking. I love how they separate running and jogging. Blah blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m just going to leave it there actually. Built on motion algorithms informed by the Nike Sports Research Lab, the first generation footwear system is comprised of a lightweight, powerful motor drive belt and rechargeable cuff battery that seamlessly integrate with a carbon fiber plated running shoe that can be worn with or without the robotics system. This makes it easier for everyday athletes to run, walk or run more often for longer amounts of time while having more fun adding movement to their lives, extending their walking commute or helping them to enjoy the run for another mile or two. I think that’s a fine place to pause and let anyone jump in accordingly. It looks like you’re chomping at the bit.

Courtney Conley

I mean I just, when I saw that I was just kind of in, in a state of shock about the whole thing. I mean there are so many things there that just are not for, for are not going to work for me. I mean, if we take it down to the very simple statement of if you don’t use it, you’re going to lose it. A product like that that is basically, I don’t even know how that would work, but is going to provide everything for the patient that the person cannot do themselves. I just don’t understand anything about that.

Steven Sashen

Well, how it works. I’ve watched a video and if you look closely, I mean this line of it lifts your heel. That’s of course not biomechanically possible. It’s just basically it takes a little while to pay attention to how you’re walking or running. And then once it gets enough info, then you can continue doing whichever activity that is. And in the gait cycle, basically once you’re, once you get to mid stance, it’s just plantar flexing your foot, but it’s just, you know, articulating the ankle.

Courtney Conley

I think that, you know, when they talk about that product, if you, if they’re saying this is for everyone. Now when I look at that, I’m like, that could have implications for a compromised population. You know, if there was absolutely, you know, someone that had trauma or fusion or something that could facilitate their gate.

Steven Sashen

Well, hold, hold that thought.

Jay Dicharry

Conversation, hold that thought.

Steven Sashen

I wonder, and I think it’s probably true, but the way that the videos that I’ve seen about the product, it’s basically let’s watch you walk and then we’re going to add something to that. But for people who are severely compromised, they’re having a hard time walking to begin with. So how much is it going to add to what they’re already doing? That’s problematic. But I do think that there’s some, there’s going to be some application to be more helpful for people who have limited mobility to begin with. So the AI will not be the thing learning and then amplifying a little bit. It’s going to be more augmentation, which look, I’m having flashbacks to when I got back into sprinting and kept pulling calf muscles because I got a screwed up spine. And I would wear a pair of MBT shoes, the big thick rocker bottom shoes, because I didn’t have to use my calves while I was healing. So in that context, you know, valuable. But the everyday athlete part.

Dr. Irene Davis

Yeah, I don’t think they can actually. I mean, I, I, I had the same feeling about. This would be great for someone who maybe had a stroke or, you know, a mild stroke. But I’ve had runners who want to run and they had a mild stroke and they, and they didn’t have the same function on the other foot. But then it becomes a medical and that’s, that’s opens up a whole new can of worms. So I don’t think they’re going down that path. I think advertising this as something for runners tells me that they don’t care about the sport. They don’t care about the sport and that hurts. I’m really upset about that. That upset me more than anything. And I’ve always hung on to the fact that maybe they do, maybe they do, but I don’t think they do to create a shoe that, that just like you said it, you, if you don’t use it, you lose it. A shoe that doesn’t allow normal motion. There’s no way, when you’ve got an articulated joint at that, wherever it puts it, that your foot is going to move across all the joints. The 26 articulations, 26 bones, 30, 32 articulations, whatever it is in your foot, six degrees of freedom. You know, your foot can’t move that way. It’s bad enough in a regular running shoe, let alone a shoe that’s basically an orthotic brace.

Steven Sashen

Well, the only way this shoe can work is if it’s completely stiff. I mean, there’s no other way that you could actually have this work mechanically. And so, yeah, it’s just, yes, you can Actually, my version is. They, they. I can’t remember where I saw it, but something about, you know, making it easier. Well, the whole value of exercise is that it’s not easier.

Dr. Irene Davis

An E bike for the, for the runners, what they called it, remember?

Steven Sashen

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Irene Davis

That was their, their, their tagline.

Steven Sashen

I was thinking about that this morning as I watched a couple kids going to school on E bikes. And I was thinking, God, I hope there’s some parents. If there was ever going to be a place where there would be parents who would not let their kids ride an E bike, it’s Boulder, Colorado, where it would be like, no, you need to be healthy. Not just riding a glorified or a dumbed down motorcycle. But that’s what, you know, I mean, all the kids are doing that and I, I worry about that.

Jay Dicharry

You know, for decades I’ve been having this quote, two quotes. I always say, you can’t fire a cannon from a canoe and you can’t put a jet engine on a PA airplane, right? Like, those things don’t work. So now we’ve got a new shoe. And again, runners have shown they’re open to new stuff. I mean, look what’s in the wall of your retailer now compared to what was five years ago, right? So it’s like we’re in the Wild West. Mad science, you know, time. So, you know, people.

Steven Sashen

Wait, hold on, hold on, Jay, wait, I got to clarify. They’re open to something new if they think it’s going to make it easier, right? Better, right?

Dr. Irene Davis

And money make more money.

Jay Dicharry

Make money. Yeah, but so now you’ve got this environment where, you know, things again are more unstable, right? And now you’re going to add like an engine to this. It’s like this is a recipe for disaster. I mean, look, it’s like, I know we live in a world, people want things sexy and clean and lovely, but, you know, let me tell you about my life, right? Last week I got a call from, from a coach at a D1 school who’s like, hey, we’ve resisted super shoes for, you know, as long as you possibly can. The kids are chomping at the bit. We finally took the, took the leap and guess what? Half a team got hurt, right? Like so. So I think most people don’t understand. This is a totally different environment. You’d never jump from one thing to something totally different. And that’s what we’re doing with this wild west aspect of shoe design. And I think that when you look at what’s happening, what are we doing we don’t know. Right. Like you as a consumer are operating off of marketing company. Not, not science. Right. Not understanding biomechanics. And so, you know, we’re happy to try and help explain this, but it’s tough when we sit here on a zoom call and some of my other companies got, you know, $5 billion in marketing budget to try and sway you. So, you know, pay attention to reality, folks. You know, I want the best for you, but what I don’t want is my phone to keep bringing when we keep making poor decisions.

Steven Sashen

I love that.

Dr. Irene Davis

My favorite, my favorite saying is the closer we are to the way that we evolve to move, the less our risk for injury. And that applies to everything, whether it’s prolonged sitting or walking or whatever. And, and so the farther we get away from the way that we evolve to move, the greater the risk for injuries. So to your point, Jay, there was that, that study that came out from Adam 10:40, the case series on five navicular stress fractures we just haven’t seen yet. I’ve seen some really ugly videos of people running in those shoes. In those, those just the super shoes themselves. I mean, I was at the Boston Marathon. I worked the medical tent and I, I take a break every now and then because I see very, very ill people in the heat section. So I have to come out and see why people are raising their hand time. And almost every single person was in shoes like this, and almost every one of them was excessively everting, excessively pronating because they were exhausted because, because of that higher midsole. It increases the moment arm of that lateral ground reaction force, which puts you into. Increases the eversion moment. So, you know, for people listening, it’s. It basically increases your tendency to pronate. And so the muscle that controls it has to work really hard. By the end of the race, they couldn’t do it.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Dr. Irene Davis

And they were all pronating. So I just think that we haven’t yet seen the consequences of these shoes, let alone the Nike Amplify or the Mind.

Steven Sashen

I, I would argue that we have seen them, but we’re not hearing about it the way we should.

Dr. Irene Davis

We haven’t, we haven’t reported on it. We have. Don’t have it in the literature.

Steven Sashen

Right, right. And you know, just to be clear about two things that you said for people listening. One, pronation not bad. Hyperpranation or uncontrolled pronation, bad. And the, the way we evolve to move, some people will mishear that and think, well, but we didn’t evolve to run barefoot on concrete. And I go, well, first of all, go to the place where we evolved, and that ground is just like concrete with a bunch of crap sticking out of it. And secondly, even if we didn’t evolve to run on concrete for, you know, 26 miles, that doesn’t mean we can’t. We may we have evolved in a certain place, but that doesn’t mean we’re not able to. To supersede that. As I like to say, we didn’t evolve to do standing backflips. If you want, I can do one right now. So it’s. There’s just sort of an inverse naturalistic fallacy that people like to apply to that. But yeah, I mean, the other line of, like, you know, it’ll help you run longer. Well, here’s a crazy question. Who really wants to run longer? Yeah, I mean, I don’t think that’s the goal that people have. It’s like, unless they’re training for a marathon, and you won’t be able to wear these things when you’re training or when you’re actually racing. So if you’re wearing these things in training and arguably getting weaker because you’re having something take over the function of the muscles, ligaments and tendons, what’s going to happen when you go to race? And I mean, my God. And, you know, Jay and I talked about this back to super shoes. As a former All American gymnast, the first time I saw any one of those, I went, oh, any foam is tuned to a weight and speed. If you’re not that weight running at that speed, then they’re going to mess you up. They’re going to be out of sync with your natural body’s rhythm, and you’ll get messed up. End of story. And, you know, running shoe companies love to use the term energy return. Well, there’s no such thing. There’s only energy suck. And even the guys from Adidas, when they talked about the boost foam, it’s like we’re just trying to reduce the amount of energy we’re sucking out of the system, which, again, fine, if you’re that mass at that speed, speed, and otherwise, it’s just totally out of whack.

Dr. Irene Davis

It’s same with the carbon plates, right? Those are tuned a certain way.

Steven Sashen

It’s worse for the carbon plates.

Dr. Emily Splichal

I know.

Steven Sashen

Because people think the carbon plate is actually doing something other than just being structurally there. This is my favorite thing. People have to go to footwear events where the people selling that foam, they call it what the industry calls it which is super critical foam, which is a term that came out of, of nuclear physics, supercritical is about to explode at any time. So if it weren’t for having the carbon fiber, that stuff would just shear and fall apart instantly. But they think it’s acting like a spring or a lever. There are well known people who will remain nameless unless one of you wants to mention this person’s name, who is viewed as a footwear expert who has made both of those claims that the carbon fiber is a spring or a lever. It’s like that’s not how physics works. Anything else? Other other amplify thoughts?

Dr. Emily Splichal

I’ll share a couple of thoughts that just kind of echo off of what everyone said. I mean this is obviously just prosthetics that they put into consumer space. And it’s really looking at the ankle as a hinge, which the ankle is not a hinge. There are spirals in the foot and if you take away those spirals, which is what Irene was saying, you try to push someone to move and the way that we are not designed to move, you will find injuries. So plus it’s probably going to be crazy expensive. I hope this was just a demonstration to show what they would concept and it actually never comes to market just to essentially they’re flashing their feathers a little bit. But yeah, I just see compensatory injuries happening because the ankle is not a hinge.

Steven Sashen

You know, I’m also looking, I just, I want to see if this is a video. I just pulled this up. I’m not going to show the video, but I want to show you a pic. Look at the shoe that they’re putting it on. Look at the, look at the design of that shoe. That is, I mean, holy smokes. Talk about squeezing your toes and reducing blood flow and all the other problems that that design creates or can create. That is freaking me out. And of course, you know, this massive toe spring, which people can see it. So that’s the part where. Well actually, you know, it doesn’t look like they did toe spring. It looks like this smart thing of just reducing all the foam. But this is all designed to deal with the fact that your foot is not moving. Here’s the things that we built in because your foot’s not moving to try to allow you to move at all, but certainly non optimally.

Courtney Conley

I mean, Steven, I’m looking at all this and I’m thinking, you know.

Dr. Irene Davis

When.

Courtney Conley

You look at all the research that they bring to light, if we were to like try to find a positive in all of this, you know, especially with the mend.

Jay Dicharry

Right.

Courtney Conley

With the mind. The. They’re bringing the research to light, but it’s almost like they’re not taking it to fruition. They’re saying, hey, this is what we’re. We’re seeing. But then they’re not really explaining it as well. And that’s why I think these calls are so important, because the education behind all of this is so important. If Nike’s going to. We have a very large company that’s going to bring some of this research search to light. And I think it’s our job collectively to take that and really educate people and say, hey, this is where the. What they’re saying does make sense. But the way they’re, you know, implementing it is where the fault is. And I think that’s an opportunity for all of us to really further educate.

Steven Sashen

Well, that’s why we’re here. And I’m hoping that we can do much, much more of it. I mean, the product comes out January 8th, they say, so we have have from when we’re recording this, a little bit of time to try and create more content and be part of the conversation from very early on. Because the thing that I will say about the big footwear brands, and I say this with nothing but envy, I assure you, is their marketing teams are brilliant. They’re really, really good at telling stories that are simple. And because they’re simple and make sense to people, those stories get locked in. It’s just that they’re not true. And it takes a long time to get people out of that. I, you know, you know, I was going to say something that is not true. It doesn’t take long for people to snap out of the trance of marketing. It just takes getting people to think for themselves by doing something a little sideways. Like I say to people, all right, I have a dumb question for you, and I swear to God, it’s not a trick question. It’s a stupid question. So don’t try to overthink it. Just first answer that pops in your head, which is better, weaker or stronger? And people still argue. And they go, well, I said, no, no, don’t overthink it. Which is better for your body? Weaker or stronger? And they go stronger. I go, cool. So let’s talk about the thing you don’t want. Weaker. If I want to make this arm weaker, what do I do? They go, don’t use it. Yeah, if I put a cast on my arm and support the joint. Let’s come back to that. Word. It gets weaker over time. So you have, like we were saying, 26 bones, 33 joints in your. Your feet and ankles. What happens if you put them in a shoe that doesn’t let them move? Like putting a cast on your arm? And people go, oh. And so if you put an orthotic that doesn’t let a bunch of those things not move properly, what happens? They’re like, oh. I said, so when is getting weaker good for you? And they go, okay. So there’s a way of waking people up because we’re all smart enough to recognize reality, but a good story can over. Can often overrule our ability to recognize reality. So our job is to wake people up.

Jay Dicharry

Up.

Steven Sashen

Not. It’s not even educating. We’re not teaching them anything they don’t already know. It’s just reminding them at a fun time, at a talk with the former heavyweight world champion, Lennox Lewis. And at one point, you know, we’re having a great conversation about footwear. And he said, so what do your shoes do about support? I said, lennox, where’d you grow up? He goes, jamaica. I said, what’d you wear on your feet when you’re out playing until you’re about 15? He said, nothing. I said, what’d you do for support? He goes, I used my feet. Feet, you know, get a lot of fun. I also said to him, how do you not remember me? He said, when did we meet? I said, 30 years ago. You and I are the only two guys with long hair at this big ESPN conference.

Dr. Irene Davis

Is that true?

Steven Sashen

It was true. Well, I had a cable television show. It was actually. It was a big cable television thing. And he was there, and I went and said, hi. We Talked for, like 30 seconds. It was a long time ago.

Dr. Irene Davis

I mean, I’m sure you’re all aware that one study, which is brilliant, the protopa study that put healthy feet in orthotics for 12 weeks and had a 10 to 17 reduction in the size of the intrinsic foot muscles. So you think that’s just 12 weeks? How many people wear orthotics for only 12 weeks?

Steven Sashen

Yeah, and I mean, the thing that I always point out, and thank you for reminding me, I haven’t quoted that study in a while for some strange reason. But of course, you know, it does get asymptotic. You only get weak to a certain point. It doesn’t go to zero, but. But it gets bad. There’s no question about it. Oh, yeah, yeah. All right. Anything on either. Either one of these Incredible, Literally, I mean, the literal word, incredible. Ideas.

Dr. Irene Davis

The only thing I’m wondering about is who is going to jump on the bandwagon? What other shoe companies are going to start, you know, coming up with their own wacky shoes?

Steven Sashen

It’s an interesting question. It took a couple years. Well, look, Hoka came out in around 2011. Ish, 2012. And it took. Took many years till people started copying that. And frankly, the first, I don’t know, five years of that business where they thought it was going to be a performance product and it just wasn’t working. What made it kick in was when elderly people started wearing it, which is, of course, the antithesis of what they should be doing. But that’s when it started to take off. And that’s between that and the development of the. The lighter supercritical foam, that’s when everyone kind of jumped on. And then it was. Was kind of the second wave where people were saying, hey, people are running faster in these. Which there’s reason might have nothing to do with the foam. Well, anyway, that’s a whole other conversation, but it took a while till. When you go to a footwear trade show, everything is at some giant thick something or other. So I don’t expect that people would do this right away. And if we’re lucky, and again, I’m not trying to make this a commercial for us, if we’re lucky, it’ll wake people up enough that what happens is those of us who are making footwear that’s actually supposed to let your foot bend and move and flex and feel and give you protection and just the right amount of support, that. That brings the awareness to that part of the market and is really helpful, rather than it turning into more crazy things. Fingers crossed. And not just for me. Literally, our only interest here is in getting people to be using their feet as naturally, as humanly possible, as often as possible. And if that’s where this goes and Nike becomes the number one leader in barefoot shoes, couldn’t be happier, because then I can retire. And I already did. You know, I did my job. Anybody, anything. Going once, going twice. Before I let you tell people how.

Dr. Emily Splichal

I would just say, like, concept awareness that people are like, oh, feet are sensory. And I know that you’ve done years of work pushing that, Stephen. We all have. But that’s a big thing. And then I stand so passionately behind mechanoception and the proper description and utilization of that stimuli. So I just want people to be interpreting and using that sensation appropriately.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, don’t, don’t bank on people using the words appropriately in the same way that people think proprioception means what your foot is feeling and not where your body is in space. I mean, language will do its thing. I mean, look, people still argue with me and they go barefoot shoes. That’s an oxymoron. It’s like I didn’t make up the phrase. Other people started using it. That’s how people find us. So language will do what it does. But, but I, I do share the same hope that it’s done well. So let’s go in reverse order for people who want to find out more about what any of you are doing. I’ll start with Emily and then we’ll go back around the other way.

Dr. Emily Splichal

Absolutely. So my functional podiatry practice is my name. So drmly splickel.com and then Navoso, which is a true mechanoceptive stimulation product line with two point discrimination is naboso.com nab o s o.com and we have over 40 products that stimulate the feet.

Steven Sashen

I love that you spelled naboso but not spliggle. So do you want to spell your name for people?

Dr. Emily Splichal

Sure. My Last name is S-P L I C-H-A L so-R Emily S P L I C-H-A-L.com or here’s an easy one. The functionalfootdoc.com on cool.

Steven Sashen

Thank you, Jay.

Jay Dicharry

Yeah Jay to Sher, founder of Mobo Board. You know while we somebody earlier today we walk and run forward but our foot moves in spirals and diagonals and so develop Mobo to try and improve the skill, coordination and feedback in your foot to build a good training environment like we talked about to try and help us succeed. So you can follow us on Mobo Mobo Board on Instagram and the website moard.com got lots of articles up there in the thought section so give it a check out.

Steven Sashen

And Mobo is easier than Splichal but nonetheless mo so Mobo board or what? Wait, what was the other one?

Jay Dicharry

I just mobo board.com There we go.

Steven Sashen

Mobo board.com It’s a very, very cool tool. Highly recommended. Irene.

Dr. Irene Davis

Okay, so I don’t really have any products but if you want to keep up with me on Twitter at at Irene S. Davis and just keep with up with us in the literature. We have articles coming out on minimal footwear, have an ongoing RCT that’s getting close to the end that Steven has helped us with by supporting us with the footwear. Looking at plantar fasciitis and looking at standard of care versus 180 degrees, which is removing all support and exercising the feet. So that should be coming out. I’d say well in the next year. The, the, the trial’s just about done and we have some other minimal footwear studies coming out that have to do with biomarkers etc.

Steven Sashen

So, yes, it pains me how long it takes for research to get done.

Dr. Irene Davis

It is, it’s.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it’s a tough one. And back to you, Courtney.

Courtney Conley

Yes, my name is Courtney Conley, the founder of Gait Happens. So we have a bunch, we’re very passionate about bringing awareness to the foot. So we have a bunch of online courses on how to improve your foot strength, things like that. And then I think I interviewed most of you, but the book is launching May 5th of 2020 walk it is. We’re very excited about it. And you know the overarching theme, right, is to get people out and walking and being aware of this movement. But there is a lot of talk about footwear, the importance of foot strength, foot mobility. So I’m really excited to have the platform to bring all of what we are all saying here on, you know, hopefully a larger scale. We can really spread this message.

Steven Sashen

Someone had to do it and we’re all grateful that it’s you.

Dr. Emily Splichal

Thank you.

Steven Sashen

And so gatehappens.com for people. Yes, perfect. And I could have done this. You can just find everything about Xero Shoes at xeroshoes.com or if you’re in the EU or if you’re in the uk.co.uk or if you’re other places around the world, we can point you there as well. So everybody, thank you so much. We’ll probably do another one of these, like after the product comes, the products come out, assuming that they all do and we start hearing what’s bubbling up in the world in response, I think that’ll be an interesting time to check back in. So everyone else, until then, as I like to say, just go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Dr. Irene Davis

Bye bye.

Dr. Emily Splichal

Thank you.

Kettlebell Workout Secrets

marketdomination — Wed, 10 Dec 2025 00:00:42 +0000

Discover the art and science of kettlebell training for a unique fitness experience unlike any other.

In this episode of the The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen interviews Denis Vasilev, MA, 11x Kettlebell World Champion, IKO Master Coach and Founder, who dives into the world of resistance training. They discuss the profound mental and physical benefits of kettlebell training, emphasizing the importance of consistency and strategic workout scheduling. Through Denis’s expertise and passion for coaching, listeners are encouraged to explore the artistic and challenging nature of kettlebell sport to enhance their fitness levels and achieve personal milestones.

Key Takeaways:

→ How resistance training is crucial for building muscle mass and longevity.

→ Why consistency in training is key and how just three workouts a week can lead to significant results.

→ How engaging in kettlebell training is achieved by utilizing gravity and body weight shifts.

→ Why your training progression with kettlebells should start light by mastering technique and gradually increasing weight.

→ How proper weigh distribution allows individuals to adjust their body position and maintain the correct form.

Denis Vasilev is a globally recognized Kettlebell Sport athlete, coach, and educator with over 25 years of experience in the discipline. Beginning his Kettlebell Sport journey at the age of 16 in 1999, Denis has become one of the most decorated athletes in the sport’s history. He has earned prestigious ranks, including Master of Sport International Class, and competed for the Russian National Kettlebell Sport Team from 2008 to 2015, performing at the highest professional level worldwide. Denis holds a Master’s Degree in Physical Education & Sport Pedagogy from Lesgaft National State University in St. Petersburg and has been coaching athletes since 2009. He is the founder of the International Kettlebell Organization (IKO) and the Kettlebell Sport World League. Additionally, Denis is the creator of BELLEVATOR, a premium line of kettlebell sport belts and apparel, continuing to lead and inspire the Kettlebell Sport community worldwide.

Connect With Denis:

Website: https://www.denisvasilevkettlebell.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/denisvasilevkettlebell/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DenisVasilevKettlebell

Connect with Steven:

Website

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Join the MOVEMENT Movement
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Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen
It’s no secret that resistance training is really important for building muscle mass and actually for longevity as well. And but what if that weight set you have gathering dust in your garage is probably better? Gathering dust in your garage because there’s an option that you might like even better that could be just as effective, much more fun, much more interesting for sure. And well, anyway, let’s find out about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first. You know, those things that are at the end of your legs. Here we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or play or do yoga or CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do and to do that effectively and efficiently and enjoyably. And I say enjoyably because you’re not having a good time doing it. You’re not going to keep doing it. So keep that in mind, especially on today’s podcast. I’m Stephen Sashin, co founder, chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes and we call this the Movement Movement because we that includes you. More about that in a second. Are creating a movement about natural movement, making more and more people aware about how to what the benefits are of using your body the way it’s designed to be used. Now this part about we it’s really pretty simple. Just you know, give us a thumbs up and a like and a hit the bell icon on YouTube and well go to our website www.jointhemovementmovement.com so you can subscribe, hear about upcoming episodes, see all the previous episodes, find out other places you get on the podcast if you didn’t like where you got it this time. In short, you know what it’s, what do I mean? Just if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe and let’s have a good time. So speaking of having a good time, Dennis, do me a favor, tell people who you are and what you’re doing here.

Denis Vasilev
I’m a L time world champion in cannibal sport, doing it since 1999, so it will be 26 years soon and on. I won my first World Championship 2008 and I never lost since then. I’m 42 years old now and well, I’m officially retired from, you know, competing on the for a national team, but I’m still lifting as heavy double 32 kilogram kettlebells and just enjoying enjoying the ride really transitioning to coach. Well, in fact I’m doing coaching for a while.

Denis Vasilev
Since 2010 and.

Denis Vasilev
I just really not just passionate about, you know, sport and excited to leave myself. But I’m, I’m really happy to share, to share my journey and I really enjoy the coaching and I guess that’s probably the reason why here together because when you’re doing it for a long while you’re going to such, you know, fine details as well, shoe wear, you know, even if you’re doing a cattle sport where you might think that, well, maybe that’s not the, you know, thing to worry about, but.

Denis Vasilev
It’S, it’s all comes to fine details, etc. Actually.

Steven Sashen
So there’s a couple things that I need to address because you already did a lot that I want to, I want to dive into. First things first. As people can tell from your accent, you’re from Georgia in America or North Carolina.

Steven Sashen
From Russia. When did you move to the States?

Denis Vasilev
2017.

Steven Sashen
Oh, brilliant. And so where actually are you now?

Denis Vasilev
In Bay Area.

Steven Sashen
Brilliant. And for people who aren’t watching this and I, I wish that you would be. One of the things that I love about Dennis is his background where there’s a skeleton. Not only is there a skeleton hanging in the background, but he has a skeleton where there’s some muscles that are, and ligaments and that are attached. So he can show you things about how your body is supposed to work that might actually be counterintuitive from the way you’ve been taught. But we might get to that later. Either way, I just like that there’s a skeleton hanging behind you next. So obviously we’re talking about kettlebells for people who don’t know, which means they’ve been living under a rock or living under a kettlebell and not knowing it. Can you tell everyone what a kettlebell is and where they came from? And I’ll, I mean you know a story that I have about first finding out about them but describe what, what a kettlebell is and we’ll start there and then I’ll have a follow up question for that one.

Denis Vasilev
Well, kettlebell is a metal ball with a, with a handle. And as far as, as far as I know that it’s. Well, it’s just a tool of, to measure a weight and it exists from ancient times and even there’s some examples a museum of like a rock, cattle balls kind of like also like a ball shape with a handle. And.

Denis Vasilev
Well they, they went to somewhat, you know, look, we know them now in the end of 19th century. And well, again from what I’ve learned that in.

Denis Vasilev
Marketplaces, you know, we used to wait, rice, meat, whatever, and looks like.

Denis Vasilev
What. What story tells that after the. The market was over, so the salesman was like just start wanting to have maybe a little bit fun afterwards. So they start like, well, lifting, juggling. This bell sent. I think. I think juggling is the oldest kind of athletic use of a kettlebell and was in circus like also like started I think from the end of the 19th century and you know, till. Till this day.

Denis Vasilev
And it formed the gettable sport Late 40s in Soviet army as just a cheap and useful tool to keep soldiers, you know, in shape. So they carry it and then they lifting it. So you don’t need much of equipment really to do it. And I believe first world championship happens in 1991 in catal sport. So.

Denis Vasilev
It exists for about 75 years.

Steven Sashen
So I’m gonna. I’m gonna come back to the kettlebell sport. But before we get there, some people will think that instead of having a kettlebell, you could just use a. Pardon me, I got the hiccups. You could just use a dumbbell. Can you explain what makes using a kettlebell different than using a dumbbell?

Denis Vasilev
Well, the dumbbell. Well, the way. The way that the tool shape, the center of gravity is lower. So.

Denis Vasilev
Well, it’s.

Denis Vasilev
It’s a good question.

Steven Sashen
Well, you’re basically, you’re. You’re basically on it. I mean, with a dumbbell, you’re holding the handle and the weight is basically at the same level as your hand. But with the kettlebell depending. Well, it will be extended out from your hand. And whether the kettlebell is hanging down or out in front head, it’s just in a different position, which just from my experience, it just. It forces you to pay attention to balance and stability in a way that is very, very different than with a dumbbell. Dumbbell you have much more room for error and kettlebell much less room for error. But in a way that actually is. Is stressing your body.

Steven Sashen
I don’t want to say more beneficially, although I could make that argument, but definitely in a way that is unique and feels more like it’s engaging your whole body because of that asymmetry than with a dumbbell. That’s my version. You can feel free to ball is.

Denis Vasilev
Also meant to be like carried on for longer sets. I like.

Denis Vasilev
Because once you pointed out this question. It’s a great question because I love dumbbells.

Denis Vasilev
Done deal. Fair amount of work with double dumbbells. But kettlebell. Kettlebell can replace dumbbells in many exercises we know, you know, like bicep scrolls and.

Denis Vasilev
Like different presses. But what’s unique about kettlebell is that.

Denis Vasilev
Well, I guess because. Because the body is below the handle so it can be placed more comfortably.

Denis Vasilev
Well or for this matter the balanced a bit better. Like even if it’s overhead. So it’s like a. Well at least two points of connection. So when the. But when it’s a dumbbell so it’s just a road with the weights and so that’s, you know, it’s a challenge for your wrist to do balance it. And with skateboard, well it’s a handle but then the body also attached below the wrist. So it’s like let’s say when you perform something like even fitness exercises like a Turkish get ups, I think cattle ball is, is more comfortable to balance well. And plus this also the center of gravity is lower. Right. So if, if dumbbell is like two weights on the side of the. Of the hand. So it’s, it’s way more challenging to. To stabilize it. And with kettlebell it’s two points of connection and the weight is like basically on the middle of your forearm is much lower. So that’s why it’s, it’s much, much easier. Well, and what, what, what makes. Because. Well it’s just a tool. It’s just a weight that you can lift and you can be creative about it. And it’s, it’s numerous amount of exercises probably exist with kettlebell, but kettlebell sport is very few exercises and there were specific conditions how you lift and you’re not allowed to put the bell down while you perform again. You eventually like the whole goal of preparation is to last for 10 minutes straight. And that requires well that puts like certain.

Denis Vasilev
Requirements on your conditioning and your practice. Like you need to develop certain flexibility and endurance and mindset to lift itself.

Steven Sashen
So you made a really interesting point and it was. What I like about it is I wasn’t thinking about when you have the kettlebell overhead. So when the kettlebell is overhead you’re holding the handle, but the body of the kettlebell is below your hand when your hand is above your head. So that does make things more balanced. But when I’m thinking about the place times where the kettlebell is extending out from your body, that’s where the balance is different. And yeah, the idea that with a dumbbell you’re working with stability because just kind of rotational stability when the, when the dumbbell is over your head, which you don’t have to do with a kettlebell. So that’s an interesting things. So the idea is, I mean my comment that you can throw your weight set, that it’s gathering dust away, obviously I’m being a little hyperbolic, but it is the difference in how you feel when you’re doing those two things is significant and the amount that you’re lifting can be different. But let’s since you brought up kettlebell sport, so describe for people what those exercises are that you’re doing with kettlebell sport and what it looks like when you’re trying to do that for, for you know, say 10 minutes straight and that alone, I mean just starting there. Nobody thinks about typically lifting weights, barbell and dumbbell for non stop for 10 minutes. But this is part of the kettlebell sport and part of what even people who aren’t competing are doing with kettlebell is doing longer duration activities that can be more full body more often than not. So describe the exercises and then what a kettlebell sport competition looks like.

Denis Vasilev
Well, we can start with snatch. It’s probably most famous exercise and well known exercise in all of the athletic communities and CrossFit community and hard style community. So that’s when initially it’s inspired cattleball sport by Olympic weightlifting. And well, as far as I know it’s formed in Soviet Union and it was patronized by Olympic Weightlifting Federation. So there was basically kind of like mimicking exercises just replace the tool. And so back then Olympic weightlifting had three exercises. Jerk, snatch and press. And so originally kettlebell sport also was consisting of three exercises. Jerk, snatch and press. But jerk and press was done with two kettlebells simultaneously and snatch. And actually that’s interesting because well.

Denis Vasilev
Officially snatch done with, with one by one hand with one kettlebell and you switch hands halfway. Well you, you can switch hands only once. So it’s, you have 10 minutes and you can switch hands only once. But when exactly you do it, it’s it’s up to you. And of course eventually what happens, you know, with professionals that their left and right arm get more and more identical technique wise and results wise. On the beginning it’s very different. It can be like 50 vs 100 reps. But looks like at the beginning when they were testing the exercises, they’ve tried double snatch and it dies out, which probably a good thing because it’s a really tough one. But now it’s kind of getting back in the form of they call it double half snitch where you snatch two bells over the head both from the, from the Ground from between legs to overhead and then you drop it. Well, it’s called direct fixation. It’s not really the chest, maybe we’ll get to that. But we’ll land the Kelvin on the stomach and then you swing it and you snatch it all the way to the top again.

Steven Sashen
So, so let me interrupt right there. So if you’re doing so two things when you’re doing the competition. Is it just one exercise, one lift at a time or is it a sequence?

Denis Vasilev
So.

Denis Vasilev
Snitch is one exercise, Jerk is the second exercise.

Denis Vasilev
Long cycle, that’s a sword exercise. And it’s youngest exercise that was tested and first.

Denis Vasilev
Used on competitions in 1995 I believe. But it’s gained a huge popularity. It’s it. Well, it’s. It’s arguably the most popular lift in kettlebell sport. It ties with a snatch and long cycle. That’s a clean and jerk. So you clean the belts into the rack and you leave them over the head. And now so we have this three exercises and usually athletes they pick specialization. So it’s almost like in track and field you can be a sprinter or you can be a styer and they all of them doing track and field. So in cattleball sport like myself and most of my achievements goes for long cycle. I feel like that was my thing. And long cycle, it’s almost like kind of like a styres in running. Like long cyclists, they tend to be a little bit more like kind of on athletic side, a little bit like a stronger guys, a little bit maybe even heavier muscular. And well, long cycles are kind of slowest exercise compared to Jerk and Snitch. And then the second event called biathlon where athletes do two exercises. They do jerk first and then they do snitch. And these atlas, they more tended to endurance, endurance and like quite like excellence of a precision. So they, they run much more like about like twice as much as long cyclist.

Denis Vasilev
So.

Denis Vasilev
But lately also.

Denis Vasilev
The sport organizations allow athletes to compete in individual event. So basically you know, you even can go just only with long cycle or lonely with Jorg or only with Snitch. And you can go with all of them at once. And it’s more of a question of like programming and training methodology. But usually, usually you go just with one exercise. So you have 10 minutes. That’s, that’s all what it’s about. It’s quite a, quite a, you know, intense thought. You know, sometimes you’re thinking like you put all this, well like training cycle, like 12 months, 12 weeks of preparation and you’re Flying overseas somewhere, like, far away. And it’s all about 10 minutes. You just step on this classroom and you. To get it done. That’s it.

Steven Sashen
Oh, stop. Stop your whining about 10 minutes. As a sprinter, I’ve got, you know, for an indoor meet, I travel all that way for. For eight seconds.

Denis Vasilev
So, yeah, I don’t want to hear.

Steven Sashen
You pitching about 10 minutes.

Denis Vasilev
Everything is relative. What’s long?

Steven Sashen
Yeah, yeah, My. My entire workout is done before most people have finished warming up or my entire, you know, warmup and competition is done before most people finish warming up. So. So again, for the long cycle. And I want to kind of dive into something here. So to. You’re. You’re swinging the kettle, you’re swinging the bells up to the rack position, which for people who don’t know, and people misunderstand this often, I love if people are watching this when they see you doing it. You’ve got your elbows tucked in your hands and your elbows tucked into your body as tightly as you can. So this is literally like the idea of the rack, I think I love the. The metaphor of that, of if you were taking a barbell and putting it in your rack and it’s being stabilized on. On, you know, some hooks. Same idea there. And from there, you’re, you know, exploding up into that press. And so. But the part before that, to even get into the rack position, this is the thing that I’ve seen so many people do wrong, or so many people do with weights that I can’t figure out why they’re even bothering doing it. Namely, so light, which is just the whole phenomenon of swinging the pedal bells up into that rack position, which involves having the kettlebells think of it like the. I’m going to use an analogy. Please tell me if you would use a different one. But the easiest thing for people to imagine, if they don’t know this is imagine you’ve got the kettlebell in front of your body a few feet. You’re standing with your legs, you know, a little more than shoulder width apart. You grab it and you’re swinging the kettlebell behind you, sort of like hiking a football. But then to get it from there up into that rack position, you’re. You’re using your hips, you’re basically using your hip extension to swing those forward. And the part that people. That I see, that people either get confused or don’t really aren’t taking advantage of it is either a. They think of it more like just doing a squat, where they’re going up and down Instead of having their hips go back and forward. And then other people using a weight that is so light that it’s not giving you anything to actually push against. You’re not getting any real muscle activation when you’re using a light that’s so weight you could basically do it for an hour instead of, you know, something that’s giving you a challenge. Do you want to say anything more about just the whole hip hinge component of kettlebell swing? And then. And then of course the magic question is for competition, is this judged on number of reps and if so, do they disqualify certain reps if you don’t do them properly?

Denis Vasilev
Yes, by number of reps. And they will disqualify you. Yeah. If you will not meet the certain criteria of technique. Like dog fixation. Several. Several things.

Steven Sashen
So you’re yeah. 10 minutes for speed and accuracy. That is. I mean that’s really pushing it.

Denis Vasilev
Well, it’s a cuttable sport. It’s like quite unique because as far as I know it’s only the cyclical sport that uses their weights. So when you’re trying to like compare cattle sport or like see its closest relatives and like naturally people put it into like.

Denis Vasilev
Weightlifting. Well such like power lifting maybe Olympic lifting bodybuilding which is way far off. And the closest will be Olympic rowing actually to like experience and even the kind of the workouts you do.

Steven Sashen
That’s interesting.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah. But so basically the goal is to bring two kettlebells over your head the most efficient way possible. And I think you know, when you look on any exercise it’s technique depends on the goal and like even can take a squats and it can be done like quite. You know, many ways depends, you know like if you Olympic red lifter. So there’s even no questions that your glutes will go to your heels because that’s where barbell pushes you. You want it or not. So it doesn’t matter. It’s good for your bread. You need to practice to go all, all the way down. That’s how your your squats preparation for Libby good lifting looks like and like swing with kettlebell and there’s well hard style swings where it’s. It’s basically kind of like a system of a fitness exercises and hard style swing performed well it’s usually like really low reps probably up to 20 might be mistaken. But low reps like from like very heavy capable like few reps swing to maybe maybe 20. And the goal is to like fires up the glutes and quads as Quick as possible. And the hard style swing missing the behind leg sector of the swing. So it’s kind of the bell stops between, between legs, like drops to the like dead bottom and pulled out of there.

Steven Sashen
And so I want to pause there. So for heartstyle swing, you’re not having the kettlebell come basically behind you between your legs. Okay. So just so even with your feet essentially, and just driving from there.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah. And it’s, it’s great to like activate your muscles right away.

Steven Sashen
Yeah.

Denis Vasilev
And for each goal, I think it’s, it’s, it’s doing it. But in kettlebell sport, because swing is just a part of a clean and then clean is a part of a long cycle and we need to do it for 10. Actually don’t want to feel any glutes activation or, or quartz activation for as long as possible. So that’s why exactly we wants to avoid the vertical trajectories and we kind of wants it to be a pendulum. And so this, this part of the swing behind us helps to like capable naturally kind of slow down and stop and have like a very kind of a smooth, natural like trajectory change.

Denis Vasilev
Smooth change of, of day of direction from, from to forward swing. And then also, well, this, this, this, this, this moment when the bell behind us. So when, when the forward swing starts, cattle naturally kind of by gravity start moving forward. So it’s already a help and then another like a big difference of our of a kettleable sports swing. And actually it’s then transitions to like accelerating pool and the clean that one sketchable pass the knees and start moving ahead of your body. Then you actually shifting the weight on your heels and moving the shoulders like above the heels, behind the heels. Depends how heavy the bells, which mean called a counterbalance. So you apply your body weight to actually pull the bells. And it’s like a constant endless source of a power versus like using your muscles to pull the bell every single time. So that’s what kettlebell lifters do. So really like muscles, they kind of just are following the momentum and counterbalance and doing the steering and like trajectory correction. But it’s all about like balancing and kind of juggling, you know, kettlebell weight versus body weight.

Steven Sashen
No, that’s a really interesting point that you’re obviously trying to be as efficient as possible and so taking advantage of gravity, taking advantage of the shift of weight of your body. But at the same time there’s parts where you’ve got to apply some effort. And especially once you’ve gone to the rack and you’re going for the press. Yeah, there’s not a lot of ways of faking that one.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah, and that’s interesting. Like the way you, you apply the. The force is not like a constant torque but just a flushes of tension and then immediate release and relaxation. So like you swing and you kind of take a breath and then when it’s time to like push you, you like maybe engage your legs and you made the pool. But then while they are moving towards the rig, you can make another inhale and you engage again. So it’s like a constant switch, like many times per repetition of flexion relaxation. Flexion relaxation. So it’s. Well, it’s something that you might not be.

Denis Vasilev
Exactly, you know, able to do even, you know, when you first time trying it and you’re getting better in it, you know, as more your practice. And.

Denis Vasilev
That’S something that athletes of.

Denis Vasilev
Like a sports, like a games or cyclical sports really appreciate when they try capable sport. They feel like it’s a great condition for them versus let’s say just a classic weightlifting where you’re getting strong but you’re kind of losing the speed and.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, well, I love that. I love that idea of just this, this sine wave, this, you know, from effort to relaxation to effort to relaxation. It makes me think that one of the things that makes you better at almost any sport is learning to do less, is learning to apply the right amount of force at the right time and not when you don’t need to. And I like that can. Do you want to comment on just my comments about the kettlebell swing, which is what most people think about when they think about kettlebells. A lot of people.

Steven Sashen
Certain people, I’ll say that differently, get a little nervous actually about doing a snatch or doing a jerk, but just doing the swing and using all that hip hinge and that gluten and quad activation as a metabolic conditioner. But again, a lot of people I’ve seen do it in ways that are certainly not optimal from what we just described about the right use of gravity, et cetera. But it reminds me, you brought up rowing before. It’s like whenever I watch people on television and they’re on a rowing machine, nine out of 10 of them are rowing incorrectly. And it makes my head explode. You know, they’re. They’re basically taking what would be the oars over their knees before extending their knees. And if you were in a. In the water, you would have just stopped yourself. So I’m sure there’s things that you see if you just go into an average gym and watch people doing kettlebell swings that have that same thing like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t do that. Here’s what would make that better for you and more efficient. So do you want to chat about that?

Denis Vasilev
Well, when I think about swings, probably number one advice. Well, safety advice would be a straight back and, and perfect posture and like.

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
Keep the chin well, not high, but well, it certainly. Chin shouldn’t rest on the chest and should be elevated. The neck should be continuation, continuation of the back.

Denis Vasilev
So that’s. Well, well because, well, from what I see is probably the most like fears and skepticism going towards the back that why is it it’s good for my back or not. And when you perform swings, yeah, the back should be straight. And actually you mentioned about the weights and.

Denis Vasilev
Actually to go very light. I think it’s a very good thing at the beginning because that’s how you learn the form.

Denis Vasilev
Correctly. Because when you’re exploring something or you want to change something, while you don’t want to experiment on like a challenging weight because it will be right punish you, you know, much sooner and harder versus whereas the light bell, even if you’ll do some mistake, well, most likely your body will be able to. To handle it. So at the beginning, you know, you just practicing and well belief on word to your coach, you know how it should be done and how you should move and you just do it regardless how. How it feel. And you know, eventually, well, you actually start to notice that, you know, this, this form is. Works and then together, you know, with, with your technique improvement, you’re increasing the weight and getting to the weight that, well, feels like a workout and challenge. So yeah, I.

Denis Vasilev
I think that, you know, of course I don’t see much, you know, reason and effectivity in practicing a very light swing says as a workout, you know, on permanent basis. But I think it’s a good start. And eventually, well, you’re getting, you’re getting heavier.

Steven Sashen
Do you have a, do you have an opinion? Again, another thing that I see an opinion about. So when you’re, when the kettlebell is coming forward in front of your body, how high it should be. In other words, I see some people who start thinking of it like, I don’t even know what you describe it. Like a, almost like a pullover. So they want to, you know, they’re taking their, they’re taking a swing all the way up over their head versus stopping at, you know, say chest level, for example. Do you have thoughts about that?

Denis Vasilev
Yeah. Well, next thing after the posture Is the weight distribution. And it’s the simple way to explain it is you don’t want to roll on your toes so you should remain your heels loaded. And actually well, if you will, you know, paying attention to that well, you will naturally adjust your body position and will keep your shoulders above the heels or behind it. Well and that’s also well adjust the amplitude of the swing. So if you’re not rolling on your toes well, obviously the bell will not be too far away from you, but you also don’t want it to be too close because then counterbalance will not happen. And then. Well.

Denis Vasilev
I honestly.

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
I wanted to say that I like exercises that have static phase because then it can be done for higher repetitions and well, back squats have a static face. You know, it’s a like when you’re the top fixation. You lock your knees in, you can, you can load your frame swing. There is no static face in sweep and it’s kind of like.

Denis Vasilev
Movement of a momentum but there’s no static face in it. And.

Denis Vasilev
It’S obviously.

Denis Vasilev
You, you know, each next rep getting, getting harder. There’s no way out of it. You know, there’s no really place to like catch your breath. Well, to swing and pull and where you kind of release the. The kettlebell a little then swing it again. It might help you to last a little bit longer and if you use a counterbalance. But I like cleans much better than swing. Like honestly. Well, I know what the swing is because it’s a part of the clean. But I never practice it as an exercise ever really. Like, I just, I just don’t see.

Denis Vasilev
How it can be like benefit. Well, I’m not saying that it’s. That it’s useless exercise. Well, at least. Okay, be more specific. Like as a kettlebell sport athlete, I don’t see.

Denis Vasilev
Much of a benefit of me practicing swing. Swing only. And I do practice swing and pull when I do snatch. But it’s a bit different because.

Denis Vasilev
Swing and pull teaches you transition of like placing your grip in kettlebell sport as well because you cannot switch hands. So the biggest challenge in snatch is that your grip getting tired eventually or you, you might tore the hands and get blisters. And it can be avoided if you do it properly. And the main trick is avoid friction. So you need to place the hand very precisely on the handle the way. Well, it will be.

Denis Vasilev
Same angles as a swing part so you catch catable well at the middle point. But then if you over grip it, if you flex the grip, if you Place your hand under the handle and then once gravity kicks in and you know the, the gravity flex your wrist and also the handle.

Denis Vasilev
Twist in your hand. Well that’s you know, SS heavier the bail as sooner you know, you will get a blister and your forearm get popped. So it’s, it’s all about the precision to place, to place your hand exactly on the same spot of a handle and the same like neutral wrist. So when you do swing it pull you, you swing it, you pull it and you release the grip and then you place your hand again and you swing none. That’s like. Well it’s, it’s, it’s. I feel like this, this way it’s, it’s beneficial for my snatch performance because I’m practicing to release and catch. Releasing, catch. Well and of course you know, swing is a, you know, also activates your, your back and your glutes so it make you, make you stronger there. But when it comes to long cycle preparation where you do clean and jerk. I like to do the whole clean because. Well it’s.

Denis Vasilev
Like I very. I feel like it’s important to have a, like to practice timing like kettleball sport athletes as a coach like what I’m dealing with the guys who’s actually like maybe like.

Denis Vasilev
Advanced athletes like but not quite pros. So I, I teach them to recognize where the swing ends and where the pool starts because you might start pulling them a little too early or a little too late. And it’s very important to, to, to know this border. So that’s why you know, I’d rather do cleans as auxiliary exercise to long cycle than swing because I practice swing and then the pull and then the hand and so on. So like, like more technical, technical elements to it and. Well, it’s a quite a long answer to your question.

Steven Sashen
No, I like it.

Denis Vasilev
How tall should be the swing?

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
I guess it’s, it’s also the matter of, of your goals, what you want to achieve. Like safety wise.

Denis Vasilev
Like my opinion that there is no such thing as a bad exercise. It’s only can be a poor technique and wrong training methodology. That’s how you can hurt when you go too fast, too heavy. But if you’re paying attention, I think there are, you know, swings, you know, it’s either like.

Denis Vasilev
Quarter amplitude or chest level or all the way. I actually like to do all the weight. Like I, I’m not sure it was the terminology. I call it American swings. I’m not sure that you call it. But when you swing it all the way to the top.

Steven Sashen
Okay.

Denis Vasilev
I like it because it’s a top fixation here. Static phase. That’s what I like.

Steven Sashen
So, yes, you have. You like it when there’s a moment where you can breathe.

Denis Vasilev
So I go all the way to the top with it. And it can be done safely. And you know where, when you stop at either point. But generally swing is simple because, well, there is no point in the swing where you compromise your posture so you keep the back straight. It’s a bit more complicated when you do clean because you do the swing part with a straight back. Yeah. And then once you pull, you insert the hands and you release the mid back, you spread the shoulder blades apart, and then you shouldn’t miss the elbow slanting on the pelvis. So that’s how you will keep your back safe when, when you distribute the weight on the pelvis. So it’s like you, you’re constantly changing the posture from the straight back to the arched. And then when you go to the jerk, you also go from like the arch back to the straight back overhead. And then when you release best from the top, you arch it again into the rack and you straight it again for the swing. So you’re changing posture like four times per repetition. Doing cleaning jar.

Steven Sashen
This is the thing that I, that I find so interesting in what you’re saying is there are these nuances to each part of using a kettlebell that I think most people don’t. Aren’t even aware of. And I, and I would argue that some people probably give up on kettlebells because some of these little subtle things are really the difference between being, feeling like you’re doing something right that’s working your body or something where you’re working against it. And, and that’s, that’s really interesting. Like, you know what you’re calling the, the American swing of just going all the way up overhead? It’s one thing, I imagine, if you’re driving so that the swing ends overhead versus the swing would naturally end, say at chest level, because that’s as much momentum as you’ve given the bell. But then you’re just pulling it overhead, which is a very. Which is a different thing. I’m not saying one is better or worse. I don’t have an opinion about that. But I, but I can imagine those being very different things, actually.

Denis Vasilev
Well, I, for sure I’m not pulling the final phase. It’s, it’s a, it’s all momentum. It’s counterbalance. It’s, it’s, it’s performed as well As a, as a, as a snatch really, because you swing it and by the time the swing ends, the, that’s where you counterbalance and you pull. You put your body against the belt and that’s how it’s continues the war. So it’s like if you’re trying to finish the, the final, you know.

Steven Sashen
Lifting. Yes.

Denis Vasilev
With your belts. Well, no, that’s, that’s not how. It’s how it’s done. Yeah, that’s not the muscles that, you know.

Steven Sashen
Yes, that’s so, that’s so that thing of, just the thing of like once you get past chest level, if you’re lifting the bell, that’s my analogy to, to rowing incorrectly by taking the, the oars over your knees instead of straightening your legs and then driving the orders down. So if somebody’s looking, I mean, you know, I know most people probably haven’t don’t even know about kettlebell sport and they’re looking at it just as an auxiliary exercise for something else they’re doing or as a main workout. So the two part question here is if people are looking to just start exploring kettlebell, what would you recommend? And if they’re looking to explore kettlebell sport because they haven’t been familiar with this, how would, what would you recommend for that?

Denis Vasilev
What I would recommend. What do you mean exactly?

Steven Sashen
Well, if somebody’s, you know, someone has never actually done anything with a kettlebell and they want to get started and they’re doing it just as part of their exercise routine, you know, what do you recommend for that kind of person versus someone who, maybe they’re, whether they’ve gotten started with kettlebells or not, but are intrigued by this idea of kettlebell sport and that challenge, how would you recommend they get started as well?

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
First of all, we need to feel, you know, sympathy and, well, better even passion to, you know, whatever we want to sign up for because it’s, it’s only the way to get it done. You know, it’s a, it will be hard, you know, either way, you know, so you, you need to have motivation to do it. And once, once. Well, you know, with scalable, of course, it’s, it’s good to like have made a bit, make a little bit of a research and know what kind of exercises exist with keto balls, what kind of workouts you up to. You wants to do a.

Denis Vasilev
Hard style kettlebell or you want to do a flow or you want to do a juggling or you want to do a sport. And now, you know, thanks to.

Denis Vasilev
Social media and you know, the platforms, YouTube. So it’s, it’s quite a, I would say overwhelming amount of information and video. Like you, you can really find examples and even some like tutorials on all of this part. So I would, you know, first at least do that, at least be aware of what exists and well, you know, try with something that you know, it might be not the things that you will end up doing, but at least, you know, pick the first try is something that you sympathize the most and give it a good shot. I would say training cycle. You know, one workout will never gives you a, you know, good understanding what it’s about. You should at least give you know, this that much respect to the exercise or sport by investing well at least a month of your time. So you can honestly kind of just understand what it’s due to your body and like get a bit familiar with technique. Because when you do it properly with the good instructions.

Denis Vasilev
Fitness exercises with kettlebells can be good for you, sport will be good for you. But again, you know, the question is what you’re looking for. Because if you just want a kind of how say.

Denis Vasilev
Not like headache free but wow, maybe easy workout where you don’t want to put too much like thinking and character into it, some sort of like a circuit trainings with a light moderate weight will be a good choice for you. But kettlebell sport is, is a journey.

Denis Vasilev
It’s a mission. You’re heading somewhere and I honestly think that’s a good thing because well it’s you know, it’s more, more than that. You know, it’s goes way beyond the capable sport. It’s face your demons, you know, there’s no escape from them. So you better face them and, and be ready. And the thing is that you might think that it’s tiring but you’re just mastering the approach and once you master the approach then you’re just crushing it on all levels. It’s interesting that you know, you think maybe a person who’s like.

Denis Vasilev
Very busy, I don’t have very responsible job, stressful job. You think this person maybe would go with some like easy workout if any. But what I see is that that’s many students of mine, guys who’s.

Denis Vasilev
They understand the language, you know, and they crashing it at work and they really excited of having a deadlines and like pace recommendations and programming and like five minutes now and seven minutes in two weeks and 10 minutes and four weeks. So you know, like to keep organized, organized and scheduled. So. And that’s, that’s what kettleball sport is about. It’s, it really helps you with like a self discipline, you know, you’re, it’s, it’s very like I enjoy it as the coach because very quickly like we speak the same language with my students. Like I don’t need to like explain why exactly this workout goes next or that one. They, they understand that. They even like some of my students, they almost, I think they, they, they doing.

Denis Vasilev
Bets, you know, like what workout I will came up with because they start understand the programming said 1, 2, 3 to 1, next. No, no, no, no, 4, 3, 2, 1, 4, 5, 2. So. And you also understand, you know, why you need to like go to bed maybe a bit earlier because next workout is harder when you used to. So it’s.

Denis Vasilev
It’S, it’s really kind of getting the part, part of your life and well, if that’s something that you won’t want it. If it’s something he wants to do while capable sport will be for you.

Steven Sashen
So again, there’s a couple things in there I want to pull apart. One is I just love the idea, this idea that unlike certain kinds of, of workouts, I mean there is a structure and a goal and you are going to be coming up against your mind. You’re going to be coming up against what you think you can do, what you actually can do. And that when you said, you know, confront your demons, I can only imagine that’s part of it is just that learning the difference between what your brain is telling you and what your body is letting is able to do and the that for lack of a better term, the conversation between those two and discovering that you are probably, I would argue probably definitely able to be and do more than you thought. And finding that is, it’s a very, very profound thing.

Denis Vasilev
It’s. Well, what makes me happy is to see my students happy, you know, and to like it’s. It takes a courage and you know, investment of your time to try things. And I understand that might be, you know, scary to change your habits, but it’s like nothing better to see that it’s, that it works, you know. And like.

Denis Vasilev
Through my 25, well, I start kettlebell sport coaching 2015 years experience of kettlebell sport coaching. So number one reason for failure is inconsistency. Just as simple, simple as that. And forgettable sport like myself, I’m working out three times a week was enough for me to be a world champion. Well, of course over time the training get longer. So it’s like three, nine hours total. But three Three workouts is, I think it’s a great schedule. And it doesn’t sound as, you know, impossible knowing.

Denis Vasilev
How, how often other professional athletes working out. Like, I had buddies who’s like Olympic rovers. So it’s like seven workouts a week. You know, sometimes more than that. You know, morning, like running and then evening water and then evening the gym. So I mean, when you’re professional athlete, most of the time you just like, you cannot do anything, anything else. And yeah, when, you know, we’re talking about finding, you know, three hours per week, you know, among 168 hours, it seems like, you know, reasonable goal, but still. Yeah, just cannot, cannot do it really. And if they can, it’s already like, it’s like 80% of success. And I always saying that it’s like fight as hard as you can to not skip the workout. It’s like, you know, we’re building habits, you know, and it’s take time to form the habit, but then it’s easy to destroy it. And once you fall apart, it’s. It’s harder to get back. And. Well, the interesting thing is, let’s say you have this like a terrible week.

Denis Vasilev
Like deadlines, sleepless nights, and you think there’s like no way I can do workout. No, I should stay home.

Denis Vasilev
I’m saying that go to the gym and we’ll find out what, what we can do because at least you know, warm up and cool down and skip the, the general part. And you already will feel better. You know, you, you will actually replace the stress.

Denis Vasilev
Well, sometimes even physical fatigue, the wrong kind, you know, from like doing some asymmetrical leads if you like, if it’s a physical job or if in the office to like nice and balanced work, you like, you know, loose up, doing some stretches and some maybe back extensions pull down. So.

Denis Vasilev
And what really happens is like before you.

Denis Vasilev
Went to the gym, you think you feel so bad that you like 90% empty that you will not even be able to pick up the bells from the ground. But if you all will be brave enough to give a shot, what you will see is that you actually like maybe 10% less, maybe 15. So I mean, it’s. Most of the time it’s not that bad. It feels terrible that you’re off, but you’re off by just way smaller percentage than you think you are. Yeah. Then if you’re practicing that, then you kind of build a little bit more confidence about yourself and you can understand yourself also a little bit better. So you’re not like panicking you know, too, too early and abandoning the plan, you kind of feel like a little bit more confident, you know, to, to stick with the plan. And I think it’s very useful.

Steven Sashen
It’s, it’s a thing. So as a track athlete, the number of times where I’m on the track with one of my training partners and one of us will say, I’m so glad you’re here. Otherwise I would have liked to have just stayed asleep. And so that’s one. And the other is what you just said is the number of times where we get to the track and just feeling like there’s nothing there. And then you find out that you’re wrong and there’s, you know, there’s much more than you thought. Sometimes way more than you thought. And I think that’s an important lesson. Even in competition, you know, I have a line. I say, what do I care what I think about me? So I’ve had days where I felt horrible and competition, I did great. And days where I felt great and competition. It’s never been bad, but was always, you know, but not great. And so I don’t care any longer because I’ve lived through it so many times that whatever my thinking is, I know has nothing to do with how I’m going to perform. So then I’m just going to do my best no matter what and ignore what’s happening in my head. And that was, you know, took a long time to get there.

Denis Vasilev
And what’s interesting also that then eventually competition spirit will kicks in. Because, yeah, like once you convince yourself to get into the gym and work out and you first like have no expectation or just to survive it, then you did a warm up and it’s not too bad and you like very carefully did the first set and it’s like, okay. And then you can, okay, I got you. You know, like, it’s, it feels not too bad and you maybe like have a strong finish and you then you look on the spreadsheet and like, it wasn’t that bad of a workout. And if it’s so. Well then you think that if I can pull out such workout in such terrible day, like, what will happen when I feel great?

Denis Vasilev
This whole thing, like 180 degrees around that, you know, it can be like super boost for your like confidence in a good way. And plus you stay on track. Whereas, like, if you just, you know, skip it, you just left unknown. And when it’s unknown, your imagination is going, yes. And you’re just losing the sense of like reality.

Steven Sashen
Well, and there’s another thing when you get into competition that’s a whole other kind of learning about what happens with the excitement or the fear, which is actually there’s a psychologist who says that kind of anxiety is just excitement without the breathing. So there’s that whole thing that happens in competition that I don’t know what it’s like for a kettlebell but I know for me as a sprinter it took me years to not care what was happening in the lanes to my left or right that you know, it’s like if there’s someone on my shoulder or if I’m on their shoulder, none of my business. I stay, I literally stay in my lane and metaphorically stay in my lane. The only thing I can do is, you know, what my body’s going to do. And that again that was another thing Many, many years until I could actually just do my race regardless of what’s happening in the lanes next to me. And I imagine similar kind of thing.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah, yeah. Actually. Incredible sport. Well it’s, it’s a numbers also like well in, in running like I said like you did your training cycle and you probably you know, know quite, you know accurately like what’s your best bet for this competition like time wise. Like I know you run meters and you know that like best case scenario from all the workouts you did like this time and no any other people around can affect it. Right? It’s just, just you and track. It’s the same 100 meters. So as long as you focus on that that will be your, your best shot and then getable sport. The similar thing the competitions usually well depends on you know, number of lifters but kind of classic is six platforms and it’s their weight losses so and usually it’s organized the ways that it’s your exercise. Let’s say it’s a long cycle. Six platforms of them guys of your weight and they also using the same weights of kettlebell. So it’s a professional. So all 32, so.

Steven Sashen
Oh that’s great.

Denis Vasilev
And they all start simultaneously. Like that’s a, like a dual timers and rep counters. Spectators can see them and athletes can see them. So the, the timers on 0:10 minutes and it’s kind of like a race. You know they, they standing on the platters but you see the, the clubs and you know some like pace strategies. You know someone like start slower and start picking up. Someone start very fast and start dropping and like this number system like it’s, it’s awesome to watch when athletes somewhat you know close you know, and in their level of performance, this. This battle, how they. How they go, like back to back, rep by rep. But yeah, it’s like, I think, you know, the reason I made it through, you know, my career and have all these victories because I wasn’t really thinking about, like, I wasn’t really thinking about winning someone. I was going for reps. So we start preparation. Well, and it’s also. That’s a kind of thing from Carries on from Soviet Union. And actually, traditionally, it’s still incredible sport all over the place. Now it’s the ranking tables. So it’s rank three, rank two, rank one candidate and master of sport, master of sport, master of sport, international class. And that’s like numbers. So.

Denis Vasilev
Actually just let’s say like, in my weight class, in like 80, 185 pounds middleweight. So, like, rank three will be like 29 reps and rank two, like 38 reps and then 46. So as higher the rank as more the reps. And, well, you start at the bottom of the ranking table. You know, you just rank three, and then your next goal is simple. Rank two and then rank one. And. Yeah, and so far and so on. And it’s. Yeah, you’re really well. And then once you. You’re done with the ranking tables, then you just go for PRs. And I always wanted to hit 100 reps. That’s. Well, athletes, they’re all about cool digits, you know, like round numbers. So, you know, like 87, 89 doesn’t work. Like 100, you know, three. And I was chasing it for a long time, and I started double sport 1999. So 2015, I hit it in Canada, Vancouver, 101.

Denis Vasilev
Guys even give me a nickname, D101. That’s good. That was. That was pretty awesome. And when I hit this number, no one was even near. So this was the cool thing. So it was enough to get the first place.

Steven Sashen
That’s nice. So I realized that we’ve talked about these various different ways that people could be involved in kettlebell. The one that we really haven’t talked about in a few minutes, I’d like to just address it for a little bit, which is kettlebell juggling. We brought it up. The early kettlebell guys who were using these as ways of doing weights and measurements, after they were done working, they’d, you know, do juggling. Can you describe that? Or, you know, you could even just say. Just search for kettlebell juggling on YouTube. You’ll find it. But do you want to say anything about kettlebell juggling.

Denis Vasilev
It’s beautiful. It’s. It’s also, it’s kind of like.

Denis Vasilev
Like a, like a gymnastics because they have a certain tricks which worth certain amount of points and then. Well, I, I never did judging for competition. Juggling for competition is quite different. I’ve attended a couple of courses and I have a, you know, friends who’s you know, a high level joining. So I, I have some understanding. So it’s, it’s also a several minutes performance and you just need to well, make the program as, you know, challenging and like complicated as possible. So there’s a flips. So let’s say you throw the bell and there’s like a plane. It flips, it flips in the vertical plane. In horizontal like they call it like I think it’s called a beer mug where you kind of swing cattle ball where the, the it’s positioned horizontally and then you push the handle away so it flips.

Steven Sashen
Interesting.

Denis Vasilev
Beermind then helicopter I think when, when the, the plane of the handle matches with the floor. So it’s flipping like this way. And so in number of like flips it can do. So you throw it, you know, one flip, two, three flips. And then it can be like flips on the chest level or overhead, you know, and you throw with one hand and catch with another like under the leg. So basically it’s all kind of like throwing and tossing the bell and you’re letting it go and let it, let it flip, let the handle do the whole circle around the body and kitchen.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, definitely.

Denis Vasilev
It’s usually one kettle ball. I actually had a, I just came back last week from the Belfast. It’s actually pretty cool event. It’s all about kettle ball. So it’s, it’s a, it’s kable flow kle ball juggling hard style and sport. And so the friend of mine who’s teaching juggling, he said, hey Dennis, like I like well he actually was trying to understand like is it maybe like some mistranslation from Russia or something? Because he said juggling. It’s usually like when you’re throwing like couple things like couple apples and he will like chat GPT it. But kettlebell, it’s like so one bell. So it looks like it’s a tossing or flipping, not really juggling. And said well in Russia it’s also called juggling. It’s like the same word.

Denis Vasilev
So it’s called juggling. But like if he wants to be like very particular about terminology, it looks like it’s, it’s a tossing so it’s. I don’t think they ever. It’s only a single cattle ball. It might be a couple of athletes who will, who will juggle one kettlebell. They throw at each other and also on the way doing flips.

Denis Vasilev
So but it’s very artistic. They usually also have some like a custom dresses and it might, might go into some like a character like a superhero or something and it’s usually sound like also like a custom track playing a music and they try to synchronize with the music also their, their throws. So it’s more of like more artistic performance.

Steven Sashen
Yeah. So it’s definitely a look up kettlebell juggling on YouTube. I think that’s a good one. So this has been a total treat and if people want to find out more about you and or kettlebell sport how can they do that?

Denis Vasilev
My first and last name Dennis Vasilev. And well if you add cattle that will be my website Dennis Vasilyfkettable.com and that’s how you find me on YouTube on Instagram. So I’m, I’m sharing my, my journey there, my workouts and some technique tips, programming.

Steven Sashen
So here I’ll do the spelling part just because there’s two things that people, well one that people might get wrong. So Dennis with one N D E N I S Vasilev V A S I L E V so Dennis Veslev Dennis vs Love Kettle Bell would be the place to find you and I hope people do because bells are really, really fun to play with. I mean it’s just a whole different kind of workout that has different challenges that I do hope, you know, people discover that it’s something they maybe hadn’t thought of or didn’t know enough about it to really see what was there to explore. And that they do. And so keep me posted when people as people reach out. And for everyone else, thank you all for being here. And once again, just a reminder, head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes, all the ways to engage with us, all the places you can help spread the movement movement by giving a good review, giving us a five star rating, thumbs up wherever you do a thumbs up, hit the bell icon on YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. Like I say, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. But most importantly, between now and whatever is next, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

The 81-Year-Old Walking Across America

marketdomination — Wed, 05 Nov 2025 00:00:49 +0000

From San Diego to Florida, this cross-country trek raises Alzheimer’s awareness while spotlighting the power of natural movement, smart footwear, and a strong community.

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen interviews Judy Benjamin, who embarked on a remarkable journey from San Diego to Florida to raise awareness for Alzheimer’s disease. Judy’s powerful story highlights the importance of early detection, proper walking techniques, and footwear from Xero Shoes in managing her own early Alzheimer’s diagnosis. Through personal anecdotes, she emphasizes lifestyle changes like exercise, diet, and humor to enhance brain health while shedding light on the emotional and financial burdens faced by families affected by Alzheimer’s.

Key Takeaways:

→ Why it’s vital to focus on good posture, foot placement, and body alignment during walks.

→ How people should educate themselves about Alzheimer’s disease and the Bredesen Protocol.

→ Why incorporating humor into your daily life helps navigate challenging situations.

→ How prioritizing exercise as a key component of a healthy lifestyle is crucial.

→ The importance of balancing enjoyment while taking care of your health.

Judy Benjamin, Ph.D., lives a life centered on making a difference in the World. With a doctorate in Medical Anthropology from Binghamton University, Benjamin had an accomplished career focused on conflict-affected and less developed countries, applying professional social science skills in gender, education, health, and economic development across over 30 countries worldwide. Before her coaching practice, she focused on reconstruction and development in conflict-affected countries. Previously, she has worked for organizations such as CARE International, the International Rescue Committee, the Academy for Educational Development, the United States Agency for International Development, the UN World Food Program, UNICEF, and the UN Development Program. She is a National Board-Certified and ReCODE-certified Health and Wellness Coach with Apollo Health, a yoga teacher, and a therapist.

Connect With Judy:

Website

Connect with Steven:

Links Mentioned: http://NaturallyIntense.net

https://youtu.be/ZNYAUFddW3w

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

Some people say, I’m going to go for a walk. But the person you’re about to meet on today’s episode of the Movement Movement took that to an extreme that you probably won’t believe, but will inspire you and hopefully make you take some action about why she did what she did. But more about that when we get started for real on the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting feet first, you know, those things at the end of your legs that are there to support the rest of your body, everything above them. We also here break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the flat out lies, lies you’ve been told about what it takes to walk, run, hike, play, do yoga, CrossFit, play in the NBA even, and to do that effectively and efficiently and enjoyably. And I say enjoyably because if you’re not having fun, you’re probably not going to keep it up anyway. So make sure you’re having a good time. I’m Stephen Sashen, co founder and chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes and we call this the Movement Movement because we are creating a movement that involves you. More about that in a second about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do and not getting in the way with some things that are artificial that probably cause problems that they sometimes claim they are there to cure. Now here’s how you can get involved. It’s really easy. Go to our website, www.join the movement movement.com nothing to do when you get there, you don’t really need to join. That’s where there’s previous episodes, all the places you can find the podcast, all the previous, I said previous episodes, all the places you can find us on social media and basically you know what to do. Give us a thumbs up. Share like, leave a review, the gist of it, you know, you know how it works. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe and spread the word. So let’s get started. I’m very happy to have our guest here, Dr. Judy Benjamin. Judy, do me a favor. Tell people who you are, where you are, where you were and what the hell you’re up to.

Judy Benjamin

I love it. Thank you, Stephen, for that introduction. I’m so thrilled to be here with you today. Well, I am actually in Tallahassee, Florida. I’m just outside of Tallahassee. I am, my name is Judy Benjamin, which you’re correct in saying. And back several months ago, I decided April 5, I started out On a little walk from San Diego, California to Florida. And I just decided, you know what? I can do this. And here I am, 2600. I’ll turn 2600 today, 2600 miles later, all on these. Well, this. I’ve gone through a few, as you know, but these. This is my current daily favorite. And I have not worn any other shoes other than these. I will tell you that I love them, but I wanted to do something different because two reasons. My mom passed away from Alzheimer’s about 20 years ago, and in those days, there was absolutely nothing. I mean, even today, people will just give you a diagnosis and say, get your affairs in order, and that’s it. And she sadly took about 20 years that she finally gave in to the disease, or the disease finally got her and she passed away. And so I kind of want to honor her by making. Calling attention to the fact that there now are things you can do. And I’m not saying that everybody can cure Alzheimer’s and that you can reverse it 100%. I’m going to tell you, if you are interested, I’ll tell you kind of how I did it. But. So that was part one of my reason. Part two of my reason is that I myself was diagnosed with early Alzheimer’s 13 years ago. And I knew it was coming because I started getting all the symptoms. I won’t go into it right now, but I was having the classic symptoms, the same as my mom had. And I was absolutely devastated. I said, I cannot put my family through this. I know what’s ahead. And I was just incredibly depressed. A very good friend of mine happened to know Dr. Dale Bredesen, who’s a neurologist out in San Francisco. And she said, you know, Dr. Bredesen is working on a theory for reversing the cognitive decline in dementia. Call him up, go see him. So I did. She called him and actually made an appointment. I flew from New York out to San Francisco and spent about two and a half hours with him. And he told me what I could do to start reversing the. Basically, it’s inflammation in your brain, but, you know, a lot, lot more to it than that. But I came back just with a burning desire to. This is my only hope. I’m going to do this, come hell or high water. And that’s kind of how I’m looking at the walk, really, because it’s like, I feel like if you. If you have a little grit in your attitude, you can make things happen. And that was my attitude about this whole thing. And I thought if can walk across the country and tell people, both from media, from just meeting people along the way and let them know, it gives a lot of hope. And that’s what I’ve found so far. I’ve been through now California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, tiny bit of Georgia, just a little snippet. And now I’m in Florida and I’m 81 years old. So if I can do it, anybody can do it.

Steven Sashen

So did you have a birthday while you were walking?

Judy Benjamin

Did, actually, because all of my Pre advertisements said 80 year old woman in June. June 11th was my birthday.

Steven Sashen

Wait, wait, wait, wait. How did we never figure this out? We have the same birthday.

Judy Benjamin

Really? You’re kidding me.

Steven Sashen

Swear to God.

Judy Benjamin

Oh, my goodness. Well, great minds come from great places, I guess, at great times. But you know what? We have different years of BIR.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, well, that’s true. I mean, I’m 63 and my mother, I mean, well, part of it. I want to back up and tell some people. You know, how this conversation started in a way. My mother similarly had Alzheimer’s. My father’s mother did. My father died before we would know if he was going to develop it. And my mom passed after 14 years of dealing with it just a year ago. A year ago. Just a couple days ago, actually. Yeah, sorry, Yeah, a couple days ago. And, and yes, really, really unpleasant. And. But when we started chatting and I want to highlight something that you said, and it’s frankly, the reason that I continued my conversation with you is you said, look, here’s what I did, and it worked for me and it might not be right for everybody. And I couldn’t appreciate that more because so many people love to have a single answer for everything, especially when it’s something as profound as Alzheimer’s or cancer or things like Parkinson’s or Ms. And there’s always going to be someone who claims they have a cure and that it works, you know, 100% of the time for everyone. And if it works at all, it’s usually not for everyone. So your honesty and integrity was hugely important for my decision to, you know, see what we could do to help you out.

Judy Benjamin

Well, I’m so grateful that we had that conversation. And it’s just turned out to be an incredibly important part of my journey, I have to tell you that. You know, really.

Steven Sashen

Well, let’s just, you know, I mean, the idea, it’s funny. There’s. There’s a guy named Dean Carnassus who’s famous for having done 50 marathons in 50 days. And it’s a similarly, you know, kind of wacky thing. And when I met him, I, I went to introduce myself. He goes, oh, I know who you are. I said, I don’t think you do. He’s yeah, you’re Stephen Sash. And I said, no, I’m the anti Dean Carnassus. He said, he said what? I said, you will wake up and say, let’s go for a run and you finish it. A day later I will wake up and say, I’m going to go train on the track and I’m done with my workout in under 15 minutes. So it’s a whole, whole different game. But I mean, there’s so many things that one could think of to do to bring awareness to Alzheimer’s in general and this treatment and everything around it. But seriously, what made you just go, I mean, what were you doing prior to mapping out a path across the country that made you think, okay, walk across the country?

Judy Benjamin

Well, actually for, you know, let’s just say pre Covid for a minute because for the last 25, 30 years I’ve been very much involved in international development and humanitarian help assistance and I did a lot of contract work for USAID and for the UN and the World bank and I’d go to these war affected countries and do evaluations and figure out how are we spending the money to help these people and what are we doing. So I had a really exciting job and I loved it. And I was always traveling and you know, high stress level. And then when Covid happened, my last assignment was in Afghanistan. So I had come back from Afghanistan, I was writing up my report and then no travel and so I did a bunch of stuff. Then during COVID I became a contact tracer with the D.C. board of Health and kind of kept myself really busy. But as all of that passed, thank goodness and we’re now in, you know, more or less in some sort of new normal. I just found that my. I am a board certified coach, a health coach. And I love working with people and trying to tell them what I’ve done and guide them and help them. I love that. But I’m. My level of energy has always been so high that I found I got to do something different. You know, I want to do something different and I love to exercise, I love to walk, I’m a yoga teacher, so I’m all about don’t follow good balance. And I don’t know, it just kind of hit me one day, I thought, you know, I think I’m just going to walk across the country. It’s kind of. I mean, there was nothing really inspiring me other than that, you know, I just thought, why not?

Steven Sashen

You know, and what’d you have to. What’d you do to prep for it? I don’t mean, like, physically, although you might have done that. But I mean, like, logistically, this is not something where you literally just put on a pair of shoes, grab a, you know, thing of water and throw it in your pack and go for a walk.

Judy Benjamin

Well, that’s a great question, Stephen. It really is. Because I thought in the beginning, you know, I usually. I’ve done some marathons and mountain climbing and stuff like that, and I always prepared for it. But I thought, you know, how am I going to do this? So the first few weekends, I mean, that after I had this idea, I would put a backpack on, get my water, and I would just say, how many hours today can I walk and feel comfortable walking? Because I had never walked that length of time, you know, and it’s different from a marathon because there you’ve, you know, you’re trained and you’re, you know, it’s going to be X amount of time based on your speed. But this was just like going. And so I did this for a couple of weekends, and then I thought, you know, this is nonsense. There’s no way I can train for this. It’s either going to be. I’m either going to do it or not do it. And. And I loved. And I watched. I have to tell you this because I really owe you a note of gratitude here. I watched your YouTube on how to walk and different ways of walking uphill, downhill, how to place a foot. And I honestly didn’t really know that before. I hadn’t thought about, you know, how to place your heel, how to align your shoulders and your hips over your knees. And so I thought, well, I’m going to try this. I would go out practicing. I’m thinking, I watch your video. So I’m, like, going really crazy, kind of slow with it until it became a natural rhythm for me. And I realized that no matter how far you walk, or I don’t want to say what condition, you do have to be healthy in order to do the thing that I’ve done. But it’s putting one foot in front of the other and stepping, but having good posture. Because I watch people now all over, many people younger, many years younger than I am, in their 50s and 60s, and they’re walking, like, bent over or hunched over. And I’m just. I want to go over and like, press them into shape. I don’t. But because for me, even if I get tired, you know, I say, okay, straighten up. Put that string up here. You know, get that straight line. And that cuts down your fatigue, at least that it has for me. So I get up every morning with great enthusiasm and just go. And I feel great at the end of the day. Am I tired? Sure I am. But I walk eight to 10 hours a day, you know, just walking.

Steven Sashen

And did you. What have you done for just backup support along the way? I mean, before you even get there, like, how’d you plan the route? Because there’s some sections of that where, you know, there’s like nothing for a long time.

Judy Benjamin

Tell me about it. I could. I thought I would die before I got out of the state of Texas. I think it was three months. I mean, at least. At least two and a half months in Texas. And I went the southern route. I’ll tell you why in a second. But it was just desert, desert, desert. I saw so many tarantulas crossing the street. I mean, amazing armadillos and tarantulas. I mean, lots of. But what the. The way I planned it basically is I used the Adventure Cyclists Association’s mapping for cyclists because, as you know, many people ride the bike across and they’ve got three primary routes coast to coast. They’ve got a northern, a middle central area, and a southern. And I decided on the southern because I calculated the distance and that in a straight line from San Diego to St. Augustine or Jacksonville is basically the same, was the shortest route. And I thought, well, I’m not trying to prove the longest route. I wanted to go that route. The other part of that decision was I didn’t want to go through the Rockies when it was really icy cold. Much more of a hot weather person. And I made that decision. There were days in Texas when I thought, you know, you are stupid. You should have gone the other way. But I take a sauna every day at home, and I have a sauna in my home, and I’m used to hot temperature. And it really didn’t bother me. My drivers for my support vehicle were. They were complaining a lot, but for me, it was not that bad. But so the. The planning was the. The bike maps and then I. Small RV that goes along, not next to me, but they. I leave them in the morning and two or three hours later they’ll catch up, give me fresh water, a snack, change of shoes. Sometimes I switch out my shoes, and especially, you know, if it’s rained or anything and. And then I go another two or three hours and that’s how we do it.

Steven Sashen

What are they doing while you’re walking? And they’re just hanging out in the rv?

Judy Benjamin

I don’t know. Why? That’s a great question. I’m afraid to ask. I think maybe watching videos, I don’t know. No, actually, I’m being a little facetious because it depends. I was very fortunate because I’ve had. I had two filmmakers in the beginning. One of them was Mike, and he’s a very talented filmmaker. He was with me for a while and he would be editing and doing, working on other films that he had done. And then my next driver was Fabio and he was a drone pilot, a really talented drone pilot pilot. So he would fly the drone or, you know, chat with his friends. And I’ve had a couple of my girlfriends along the way and they’ve done, you know, read books or, you know, took take done photographs. And then currently a old friend of mine, David, he’s a violin player, he plays in an orchestra and he loves. When I’m not in the van, he just practices the violin and does some video and so forth. So people find things to do. I mean, it’s amazing.

Steven Sashen

So most, most interesting or fun. Least interesting or fun.

Judy Benjamin

Of what, the whole trip or.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, pick, pick, pick events that stick out of your mind. Because, I mean, I’m partly, you know, I’m also just imagining. I’m imagining two things. One, these sort of unusual things that you didn’t expect and then. Which could be people showing up or things happening or, you know, or that’s kind of. Let’s call that an external thing versus unusual, unexpected internal things. Just what’s happening in your mind as you’re doing this. And, and I can imagine both, you know, up and down for both of those categories. So I’ve got a good two by two matrix for internal, external, good, bad.

Judy Benjamin

Yeah, that’s, that’s a great. It’s a thoughtful question and I should probably have given it more thought. But I think that what’s interesting, what’s been really interesting to me is, you know, there’s a lot of solitude about walking alone. And I actually love that I, I am a people person, but I really, really embrace the fact that I’m out there. I don’t have any interruptions except when the state patrol stops and ask if I need water or something, trying to give me a ride. They’ve been very nice. But I’m thinking, and what has happened to my brain in that sort of quiet solitude is that I’ve had memories come back from my early childhood. I’ve remembered things that my parents said to me that I totally forgotten about, you know, or my, my sisters or friends that I knew. And it would just, like, come to me. And I thought, wow, that is a gift that my, you know, that being in a peaceful state and the rhythm of walking, putting one foot in front of the other, and it, to me, it’s very therapeutic. So I love that and I love the fact that meeting all kinds of people, I mean, I have so many stories. I’m writing them up because I think they’re, they’re, they’re worth other people reading about them. But things I didn’t know that I wouldn’t like as much as I don’t like it is I, I’ve never been afraid of heights. You know, I did Kilimanjaro. I’ve done. You know, I played flying aerobatic airplanes and hanging out of planes. Never had a feeling of height, but it’s going over all of these long causeways with the bridges and, and the trucks go, and they vibrate and everything. And I look over at the water and I think it really. I got to a point where I really don’t like that. It really gives me, like, a weird physical, queasy feeling in my stomach. And I don’t know what that means, but it’s something that I’ve developed on the walk.

Steven Sashen

You should watch videos of like, those Nepali and Tibetan buses that are going up the Himalayas, you know, on a road that is barely wide enough for the bus. And sometimes, like, having to put wheels up on the mountain itself to fit and, and that’ just, you know, desensitize you because that stuff is insane. And I know. Yeah, that’s crazy. So any people show up to, like, walk with you, Any fun people that you ran into that you didn’t imagine bumping into or, or, or conversations. I imagine that there’s also like three or four questions that anyone who bumps into you asks non stop and, and you have to have, you know, your favorite answer for that without making you want to punch somebody, including yourself, in the face for saying it.

Judy Benjamin

Well, of course everybody wants to know. Like, they’re usually very amazed and they find out how old I am. And then they want to know, like, why are you doing this? You know, that’s the big question. So I basically answer it in a shorter form that I answered with you. But the kind of people I mean, I’ve Met some really interesting people. I just think of the, one of the funniest things that happened that was. And it’s getting close to how Halloween, you know, now it’s in October, but I spent a few nights, a number of nights in the Walmart parking lots because I’ll be in places that don’t have a hotel or motel.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Judy Benjamin

And I figure, well, I’ll just sleep in the rv. And so I’ve got an extension on the back of the RV that’s a rectangular thing with a black zippered bag that I put extra stuff in. And it’s kind of like humpy shape like that. So somebody called the police on me in Walmart because they said I was carrying a body in the back of my vehicle. And the police came out and this really nice officer, his name was Moore and he was, he was just delightful, it turned out. But he said, ma’, am, I’m gonna have to ask you to open that in the back because. And it looked, when I looked at, I thought, yeah, it kind of looks like a body. It’s got like feet here. I thought. And so I, I, we laughed. So I opened it up and showed him and, and, and let him know that I didn’t actually have a body. But I thought that was so funny that people seriously enough to call the police and say I was carrying a body.

Steven Sashen

Well, once he checked you out that you didn’t have a body, now you have the perfect place to hide a body.

Judy Benjamin

I know it’s that time of the year, but, but just kind people. I’ve had people walk with me to answer your question and just write to me on, you know, I have Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and all of those and they’ll. When I can. I don’t get to answer everyone and I don’t actually have the time to. I will eventually, but I haven’t had time to answer everyone but they’ll want to meet me. And I still have people meeting up in the next couple of weeks. I’ve only got, I’m finishing up November 15th, so. And I’ve only, I, I really need to drag my feet a little bit because I’m kind of going to get there a little sooner. But that we kind of had to pick a date so that we could have a little media coverage and that sort of thing and get my family down to, to go across. I want to, I put my toes in the Pacific Ocean. I want to put my toes, maybe my whole body in the Atlantic Ocean when I get there. So that, that’s kind of my, my goal. But yeah, it’s. It’s just been an incredible journey. The people who’ve walked with me have been great. You know, I’ve had a few things like the hill, in the hill country of, of Texas where they had the flooding, you know, so bad. And I was supposed to walk right through that area. And when we got really close, I went into one of the local sheriff’s office and we looked at the maps and I got their advice and I was told, no, the river’s up 12ft, the road’s closed. So I basically had to modify based on that. And now it was sad because so many people were really, you know, their lives were really badly affected by that. And. Yeah, and I went through the Apache reservation, which was huge. Is huge. And then people were just so fantastic coming out to me and, you know, saying prayers over me and blessings over me. And that was really, really a treat. I didn’t realize how many people have dogs that are not kept, you know, like, in the fence. And so that’s one thing I’ve been really kind of experimenting with. I love animals and I’m not afraid of dogs. And I do have walking sticks that are, that are metal. So when I’ve been. I had five dogs in the Apache reservation area come out, big dogs. And we’re not talking like little ones, big dogs. And they had like, they always have like a lead dog. And they kind of circled me and, you know, they get closer and closer and I just did this sort of swirling dance with the clanging them together. And I think they dogs looked at me and thought, but is she crazy? You know, we’re not gonna bother her. So I haven’t been bitten, and I hope I don’t. I bought a box of dog bones, the milk bones, because I figured I could at least throw them some bones and maybe that’ll distract them. But I’ve had more episodes with dogs than I, than I care to mention. But so far I’ve. I’m on the winning side of that one. And that’s been too bad.

Steven Sashen

I had, I had an ex girlfriend who used to, who complained to me one day, you just treat all dogs like they know you and like you. I said, yeah, because they do. I’d never had an experience otherwise, so I’m going to stick with it. And it worked out so far, so good. So where, so where exactly are you finishing up?

Judy Benjamin

Well, the plan is to finish in St. Augustine.

Steven Sashen

Okay. On.

Judy Benjamin

And you said on the 15th, Saturday the 15th, there there’s a possibility that we may go up to a Beach about 25 miles up the coast. And the reason that there’s a special annual event that’s going to take place starting that day called the Festival of Lights, which they do every year, and I didn’t realize that. And it’s going to be a pretty congested traffic and road closures and things like that. So we just are discussing it now. It’ll either be St. Augustine or the beach right outside of St. Augustine.

Steven Sashen

Got it. So that’s, I hope. Well, first of all, I mean, we’re not anywhere close to wrapping this up. But while we’re talking about itinerary things, let people know where they can find your itinerary. So if anybody wants to join you in these last couple weeks, they can do that.

Judy Benjamin

That would be great. Yeah, the JudyWalks.com is the website and it shows the map where I am. So that’s the, one of the best places. Judy walks.com and then on the Instagram, it’s Judy Walks America and that, that clicks into TikTok Instagram and so forth. But the, the root is shown on Judy walks.com and how’s the, you know.

Steven Sashen

Back to the part about education, people, educating people about Alzheimer’s and about Bredesence Protocol. How’s that gone for you?

Judy Benjamin

Well, I think it’s, it’s going really well because everyone, once you start talking about it and letting people know what you’re, what I’m doing and sharing my own story, I think that it’s relevant because I do have a personal story to tell. They want to know what can I do? Well, unfortunately, it’s more complicated than being able to stand there and do an elevator pitch and say, this is all you have to do. So I usually refer them to Dr. Bredesen and Dr. Bredesen’s books. And I give them the basic, I give them the basic idea of the basic seven principles, which is exercise, diet, sleep, lower your stress rate, make sure you’re not in any toxic environment like mold or you’re not out in where they’re spraying glyphosate or Roundup, and you’re not using Roundup in your garden. Even golfers, I mean, they, they put this stuff on golf courses all the time, and they go out and play golf, kick up the grass, and then they wear their shoes in their homes, on their carpet and whatnot. And it’s, it’s really, it’s, it’s very bad. There’s a lot of very research that’s pointing to the inhalants, the toxic inhalants that we should avoid, especially for things like Parkinson’s. Parkinson’s. Parkinson’s disease is particularly in that direction. I mean, pointing to the fact that that’s one of the primary things. So I do my best to refer them to a source and then I ask people if they want to write to me. And I’d always say, when I finish my walk, then I’ll be able to be more responsive and to that. But it’s essentially, you know, exercise is probably one of the most important things because as you know, when you exercise, your, your blood, your heart rate increases, your blood flow is better. Therefore you’re getting oxygen throughout your body, but especially to the brain. And the brain needs a lot of oxygen to function. So if you can exercise, it also produces what’s called brain derived neurotropic factor, or bdnf. We need that. And so that is why daily exercise, not like once or twice a week, but, you know, people need to move more. And walking is perfect. You don’t have to run a marathon to do exercise or spend your life in the gym if you don’t want to, you know, get out in nature, preferably. But if you have a treadmill at home, you can do that too. So exercise. And then related to that oxygen is sleeping. A lot of people have sleep apnea and they don’t realize it or they deny that they have it. But, you know, certainly snoring is one of the factors that, you know, tells you that you’re not breathing through your nose, you’re breathing through your mouth. And that needs to be addressed. Because if you, if you spend the entire night not getting enough oxygen to the brain, you lose neurons. You actually have neurons that die. And we don’t want that. We want all of our brain cells to keep firing. Right, so. So that’s it. And then eating is just giving up junk food? Not no more. I mean, staying away from processed food and eating real food, you know, it doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be vegan or vegetarian or whatever. It can be whatever works for you, but it should be real food and not made in a factory with a thousand names that you can’t pronounce in the ingredients. That’s not good for it. We’re not, we’re not chemistry experiments and we weren’t ever meant to digest and process all that stuff.

Steven Sashen

Well, some of it does break. I mean, admittedly, some of it does break down because of the hydrochloric acid in your stomach. But you’re. But the point is still that there are some molecules that get carried along for the ride that we don’t know what the effects are. I mean, we don’t even need to get into talking about micro nanoplastics, which is just freaky that we have, you know, a credit card’s worth of plastic floating around in our body at any given average, which is just bizarre. And if it was a gold card, that would be one thing, but if it’s just one of those Amex green, you don’t get any benefits from it. And people. Yeah, who are you? So I must say the stand up comic in me, or the former stand up comic in me knows there’s just an infinite number of jokes about someone going for a walk about Alzheimer’s and just accidentally going across the country because they didn’t know which way home was. So I don’t need to dive in there.

Judy Benjamin

Still looking for home. But that. Yes. Yeah.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Judy Benjamin

Well, you know, you have to have humor. You have to have humor about all of this. It’s. Otherwise life is going to be too, too dull if you don’t.

Steven Sashen

Can I, can I tell you, I have two very funny stories about, from my mother with Alzheimer’s. One of them is not safe for work, so people have to find me privately for that one. But. But this was one of my favorite things ever. I. My sister and I would constantly test her to see sort of where her mind was at any given time. So we sit down. My sister’s name is Ellen. We sit down with my mom and my sister says, do you know who I am? And my mom says, no. And I say, do you know who I am? She goes, I don’t think so. My sister asked again, do you know who I am? She goes, I feel like I should. I ask again, do you know who I am? She goes, are you Mark? I went, no. My sister says, do you have any children? My mom goes, oh, yeah. Oh, how many? She’s three or four, Just two. And my sister says, do you know their names? And my mom says, stephen and Ellen. It’s like, oh. So my sister says, wow, do you know who I am? My mom goes, no. I said, do you know who I am? And my mom looks around conspiratorially to make sure there’s no one around. She leans in, she goes, do you people know who you are?

Judy Benjamin

That’s a great story. I love that.

Steven Sashen

Oh my God. It was, you know, I realized I was my mother’s child in that moment because as her mind was disappearing, the only thing left, everything she said was an attempt at a joke. Sometimes it was, sometimes definitely wasn’t, but, but clearly that was the goal. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I’m just her turned up to 11, so and, and I interviewed her. At one point we, they had brought in a soprano singer and she sang show tunes for about an hour. And my mom sang along, knew every word, which amazed me because we never had music in our house. I mean, I have no idea where those came from for her, but she knew every song, every lyrics to every one of the songs. And the end of this hour she said, wow, I haven’t felt this good in days. And I said, oh, oh, so you can compare how you’re feeling now to a memory of how you felt in the past. And she goes, nah, I just say things like that because it makes people feel better. But I then questioned her about her experience. Like she lost the ability to understand photographs. She didn’t know who people were in photographs, didn’t recognize them at all. And then she also didn’t understand mirrors. So she complained about how there was a lady in her bathroom who just wouldn’t shut up up. Which I thought was hysterical. So yeah, yeah, asked her about her experience and I couldn’t tell if some of her answers were an accurate representation or just the mind making up stories to come up with an answer to the question. But if you didn’t know I was speaking to someone with late stage Alzheimer’s, this could have been someone’s guru. I mean it’s like, so, you know, do you think about what you’re going to do tomorrow? No, I have no place for tomorrow. I’m just aware of what’s happening now. And even that is just leaving me, the moment I pay attention to it, it’s like, geez, people have paid thousands from somebody wearing a, you know, wearing a loincloth and a mountain in the Himalayas. So, and just like over and over that it was fascinating just hearing kind of the essentialness of awareness and consciousness as much as she was able to communicate it. And then, then there’s just the other phenomenon, which is that, that the, the options for long term care are so limited and so unacceptable. Frankly, if my mother knew that we, that she was still alive, you know, I mean, my mother used to say to my sister and I when we were children, if I’m ever worse than that lady and would point to someone who was way better than she had been for the last 12 years, she’d say, just back the car out of the driveway with my chair at the end of the driveway and forget to look back.

Judy Benjamin

Back.

Steven Sashen

And if she had any idea, you know, she would have taken herself out. Not an option.

Judy Benjamin

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

And if she had any idea how much we spent keeping her alive when all she could do was sit and stare, she killed my sister and I. So it’s. It’s really. It’s one of the things that we want to do is help try to bring awareness to just treatment and alternatives. I mean, the irony for the places that do have some sort of assisted suicide euthanasia program for people with Alzheimer’s, you have to be of sound mind to say, yes, you want to do it, which bit of a paradox it is.

Judy Benjamin

And it’s such an important topic, and it definitely affects every family when there’s a diagnosis of Alzheimer’s. And it’s. You know, I know my sister and I, we went through and tried everything, and it just. Just, you know, it’s just really, really one of the hardest things that. That happened to any families. But I. I know that what I saw happening with my mom, there was a time in. In early on in the disease where she knew she had a memory problem. She knew she had a problem, and it bothered her.

Steven Sashen

Right.

Judy Benjamin

But then there’s that bridge that they go over that they don’t know anymore. It’s like some of the comments that you’re. You’re saying, talking about that your mom made that. And in a way, it might sound a little cruel, but in a way, it’s a blessing that they don’t know, because my mom would have been like yours, horrified to know that. And it’s just. That’s where it shifts to the family. That’s where you and Ellen had the brunt, because you still suffer seeing your mom do that, but your mom is in a different space.

Steven Sashen

Well, that was the thing, you know, while I was at that Soprano performance thing, I realized something very similar to what you did, which was nobody in that room had the idea they had a problem. My mother never thought she had a problem. It never occurred to her. What was amazing was she was completely willing to accept when my father said, you can’t drive or you can’t cook or you can’t whatever.

Steven Sashen

Actually wait. It’s another one of my mom’s moments. When my father died, my mom. Everything had to be in the right place, or it would confuse her, and she’d kind of. Of get in a loop and just start something over. So one night, a couple of Us are sitting around and she says, I’m just gonna have a couple spoonfuls of ice cream and then I’m gonna go to bed. So she’d have two spoonfuls of her favorite Breyer’s vanilla. And then on the way to the bedroom, something was out of place and it would set her off and she’d come back. I’m just gonna have two spoonfuls of ice cream and then I’m gonna go to bed. And after the fifth time she comes back, I’m gonna have two spoonfuls of why is there no ice cream in this house? But that was, that was the extent of what she perceived as a problem.

Steven Sashen

So I’m in this room and the first thing is again, no one in that room thought they had a problem. And then it occurred to me that what we people who are the children of these people or relatives or friends think, oh my gosh, I’m going to suffer if this happens to me. But no, look, like you said, they’re not suffering. Now again, for my mother never had any suffering, never was aware there was a problem.

But so our projections about how bad it’s going to be, they’re wrong too. And that’s a lot of what’s keeping, let’s call it, you know, the, the Alzheimer’s industrial complex alive is sometimes, I mean, look, there’s people, there are people in places making a lot of money keeping people alive who otherwise wouldn’t be. In fact, and this is a kind of public service announcement, my mother, she did have long term care insurance, which ran out after a while. And we moved her into a facility that we were paying for. And then we just couldn’t afford to keep her at that facility. And so we found somewhere that was like a Medicaid facility. And we said to the place where she was, we’re going to have to move her. And she’d been there for like five years. And we said, we’re going to have to move her. And they said, why? They said, well, we found somewhere less expensive. They said, how much less expensive? We said, half this price. They said, oh, we’ll just drop our prices. So like, excuse me, for the last five years, you’ve charged us twice what you were willing to accept.

And so this whole, this whole, thing just, I think, needs to be examined from the. What we think is going on for this person. Sometimes people are keeping someone alive out of just, you know, what’s the word? Not sympathy, but just, you know, you’re keeping your memories alive. They’re Already going. I remember my father’s mother when she had Alzheimer’s. My father was very upset once when she didn’t recognize him and thought he was his brother.

And I was about 14 at the time. And I’m thinking it’s not personal, but he took it very personally. So, you know, the understanding what their experience is, more exploration of what our experience is, the family members and friends and how true or not true it may be and how we deal with that, and then the technical part of it as well, and the financial part of it.

There’s so much to dive into, especially with an aging population. And so I’m just so thrilled that you’re bringing attention to the whole thing at all, let alone what people can do to improve their health span. And as you said, the only thing that is currently clearly beneficial for longevity and health span is exercise. Absolutely everything else.

Judy Benjamin

No, absolutely. And the whole thing is, even if you buy or get extension of your health span by five years or one year, but five or 10 years or that’s a gift. I mean, there’s no, there are no side effects to living a healthy lifestyle, except for good side effects.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Judy Benjamin

You know, and, and that’s the message, because people don’t want to give up what they enjoy doing that’s detrimental to them. And that’s when I said in the beginning about having grit, you know, having the willingness to do what’s necessary. And I remember reading years ago, something to the effect. I’m going to misquote it probably, but, but, but successful people do things that unsuccessful people aren’t willing to do. In other words, you keep showing up to do what you need to do, and sometimes it’s hard. And, you know, if I’m talking to people who have a real sweet tooth, for example, and they want to eat a lot of sugar. Sugar is the neurotoxin. I mean, if you have so much of it, it’s just not going to be good for your brain, for your blood pressure, for anything. If they really say to me, look, I can’t give up my sweets, then you can’t keep doing the same things and expect a different result. You know what I mean? It’s like, you’ve got to be willing to make some sacrifices here. And I don’t mean that to sound hardlined about it, but I know that it works better if you’re willing to do the right thing.

Steven Sashen

There’s all, you know, there is the tricky phenomenon where people that we know who’ve done all the right things die early of something Or I had, you know, cancer in my eye, came out of nowhere. No one knows what’s caught, what caused it. Happily, my doctors say they’ve never seen anyone who healed from this as well as I have. But at the same time, you know, when I go to the Melanoma Research foundation gala to support research, I’m sitting with people who have stage four melanoma, which is not just cutaneous skin cancer, but, but melanoma can be in your brain and your bones and your, you know, all over the place. And this is going to sound really weird, but it’s so wonderful hanging out with these people. I had a 12 week window where I didn’t know if I was going to live or die. They know that they’re on the way out and they are just making the best of it. And so we have a really good time at these events. But, but we all know people who have just, you know, longevity in their genes and they smoke and they drink and they do whatever and they live to be whatever. I mean, the bottom line is we just, just don’t know what that last day is, which is a whole other question. It’s a great hanging out with friends. Question of would you want to know when you’re going to die? My answer is definitely, but so you.

Judy Benjamin

Can get, have more fun or what?

Steven Sashen

Oh, absolutely. Well, I, you know, I, I’m known among my friends for, with some, if someone is diagnosed with something terminal, saying in that same conspiratorial way that my mom said, do you know who you are, are, or do people know who you are? I will turn to them and go, pretty amazing, right? And they will. 2. Every one of them has said the same thing, which is, oh my God, I’m only doing what I want with who I want for as long as I want. I’m not making any excuses. I’m having the best time of my life. Until, you know, just the physical stuff gets very, very difficult and then you can, then there’s a whole conversation about that. But, and the humor part, you know, you gotta, you gotta choose your battles on that one. My, my wife’s nephew had an inoperable brain cancer. And at one point, you know, like halfway into it, the whole family was being very morose. And I just said to him, you know, actually it’s a good thing that you have cancer in your brain. And he goes, why? I said, well, it’s not affecting a part of your body that you ever use.

Judy Benjamin

And once he did he laugh.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, once he cracked up, everybody was cool. With it. So. But the, the point is, you know, there are things that we know can have a demonstrable impact now even. And whether we’re, whether the cards are so that as soon as you finish giving up chocolate cake, you’re going to get hit by a bus or you can eat as much chocolate cake as you want and the bus misses you every time. We don’t know. But, you know, being judicious with chocolate cake. Not that I have a thing about chocolate cake, but being judicious and not that I know where the best chocolate cake in the world is. D Bar in Denver. But regardless, you know, if you can’t enjoy things in, in a way that allows you to enjoy the rest of your life, then, you know, then that’s, that’s problematic. So.

Judy Benjamin

Oh, I totally agree. And I never say to people, don’t do anything ever, because life, it’s. Quality of life really. You know, you’ve gotta, you’ve got to enjoy your life and, and do them. But, but there’s also a period at which you, you, you do have to figure out there’s a responsibility for taking care of one’s body. Just like if you have a fine automobile. I love antique cars and sports cars and things. And I mean, people spend so much more time taking care of things like that, their boat or their car than they do thinking about their own body and, and doing the exercise or, you know, eating properly or making sure that. And that that’s, that’s the message, really. It’s not like you have to be a te. Totaler constantly. No, all the time.

Steven Sashen

Well, even what you said about bredesence protocol and what I read about it, the, the vast majority of it is just straight common sense. And, and then after that, there’s some tweaks to. Some tweaks to that, which is also what we all know, which is keep, you know, refined carbohydrates, it’s down a bit. Good fats up. Protein, appropriately. Fiber is a good one too. And these are not. This is not news. This is what people have been saying forever. But we just. To your point, I think part of it is that we’ve become so detached from finding and preparing and enjoying food that comes from, you know, food that it seems more complicated than it actually is to get enough protein, to get the right kind of fats, to get enough fiber, et cetera. And there’s ways of doing that that are enjoyable enough that that becomes your default rather than something that you’re forcing yourself to do. Now, the exercise thing, I Will confess is especially as we get older, finding the thing that you like to do that works for your body and your psychology could take a bunch of experimenting. There’s no question about it. It and, but well worth it. I mean, I’m now doing a workout that is, I mean I’ve been an athlete my whole life and it is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It takes 10 minutes three times a week and I am gassed at the end of it and I’m recovering for. I said to my, the coach that I work with, so is the rest of my life going to be that I’m only not sore one day a week? And he goes, yeah, pretty much. So I get Sundays where, where suddenly I’m not feeling sore somewhere. And well, but it makes me so happy because that very intense, very short thing that, that produces results is fits my body and my psychology perfect. I did this one exercise today. I’m gonna, I’ll show off for the people who know. It’s called a Nordic hamstring curl. So you basically support your like, imagine lying on the ground, put your feet under something and then set up so you’re sitting on your knees and then you just go down slowly until your face is on the ground again. And ideally then you come back up. It’s a hamstring exercise. Well, well, I went all the way down, all the way up, back up for 30 seconds and then just could do the negative part like down as far as I could until I fell for the next 30 seconds. I’m a 63 year old dude. There’s not a whole lot of people who can do that at all. And that makes me really, it makes me really happy. Not that, I mean, because I can do it because I’m doing it at 63, but also it’s like one of those. It’s insane doing that. And that makes me happy.

Judy Benjamin

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean the fact, I think there’s that the thrill and that we get and the sense of achievement that we get when we do something like that really makes a difference. Yeah. And you know, I, I feel that, I think with my walk, even though I don’t on a daily basis, I don’t go, oh, hooray, look at me, I walked, you know, 20 miles today. I, I think it’s, it’s just, yeah, you do these things and it feels good that you’re pushing yourself a little bit, you know, to make that happen.

Steven Sashen

There’s a, there’s a point where there’s a word for this. It’s not that it’s a hermetic effect, but there’s something about. Yeah. Doing, doing. Finding that you can do a little more than you thought you could. That, that some days, boy, you wish you didn’t do it and other days you really are happy that you did it. Even on that day you wish. Wish you didn’t.

Judy Benjamin

That’s a cool way to look at it.

Steven Sashen

I mean, kind of work.

Judy Benjamin

I love it. I’d love to hear about your program. You have to send me something on that because when I’m finished with my walk, I’m going to need something I’m a little bit scared about. What will I do when I’m not getting up and walking for eight hours?

Steven Sashen

You know, that’s. It’s a really good question that’ll be interesting to see what happens in your brain and your body. I imagine you’re gonna have to taper a bit in a certain way because otherwise it’ll just be too much to just give it up cold turkey, I think.

Judy Benjamin

So I’ll have to do something.

Steven Sashen

Well, and here I’ll just say right now. I mean there’s no secret. The guy that I work out with, you can find him on YouTube. His name is Kevin Richardson and he calls what he does naturally intense high intensity bodybuilding. It’s not about body. I mean it’s. You don’t have to be a bodybuilder. I think He’s@naturally intense.net. i’m gonna. Here, I’m gonna check that really quick. Just because why wouldn’t I. Naturally intense. I’m pretty sure that’s right.net. am I right? Oh, nope. Something. Wait, I’ll find it. Wait. Naturally intense personal training. Why is my. Oh, my computer’s like freaking out on me. I can’t figure out why. Anyway, we’ll look it up, then we’ll put it in the show notes.

Judy Benjamin

Yeah, I’d love to. I’d love to know more about it because I’m all about, well, keeping this 81 year old body in good shape for the shape I’m in.

Steven Sashen

Exactly. Well, I will warn people. What Kevin does to see if you want to work out with him is he will give you a leg day workout. And he does this on Zoom so he’s walking through in real time. And if you survive leg day and want to come back, you’re insane. And then that’s. So the last question that occurs to me and I popped into my head once or twice and I kept forgetting it. It is not uncommon that someone will Say to me, well, you know, we didn’t evolve to walk long distances on concrete. And so this whole barefoot shoe thing is bullshit. What would you say to those people?

Judy Benjamin

I would say that what we, what we have, that we’re, we’re gifted with when we’re born is a very well designed foot. And that foot likes to be in the position of the foot, meaning the toes spread out a little bit and everything lined up. And if you can put, if you want to cram that wonderful design of the toes and the foot into a shoe that squeezes everything together and you’re going to expect that to be what was meant to be and, and perform well, you’re, you’re wrong. It’s just not happening. So I think that it doesn’t matter. I walk across grass, pebbles, gravel, dirt, sand and concrete and I, I love the fact that I can tell if I close my eyes, I know what surface I’m walking on and what I’m about to, how my body needs to adjust itself to keep balance. So that’s, that’s my answer to it. I don’t, I, I, I don’t agree with these two, three inch stacked foam rubber that puts your body in a leaning forward position, which doesn’t make any sense at all to me.

Steven Sashen

I, I also like to say we didn’t evolve to do standing backflips either. But if you want, I’ll do one right now. Now. Or fly jet planes or do in. I mean, there’s lots of things that we didn’t evolve doing, but we are capable of doing. Of course, anyone who says you can’t, you know, walk long distance in a minimalist shoe, I, of course, just tell them to look at you so.

Judy Benjamin

Well, exactly. They can, they can look me up because I’m clocking my miles and I’m keeping excellent records. So I have not walked a single step without barefoot shoes. So there you go. Thank you.

Steven Sashen

Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.

Judy Benjamin

So once again, no problems. I know you don’t like to focus on that, but I can tell you, everybody always asks me, well, do you have any knee pains? Do you have any ankle pains or foot pains? I have to honest, as of today, I do not. I don’t know what will happen tomorrow, but as of today, everything works well. There you go.

Steven Sashen

You mentioned the how to walk video and I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Well, it’s something that, you know, everyone thinks, well, I know how to walk. And it’s like, well, that’s an interesting thing to say. If you go to different countries and watch how people walk, there’s like a difference in different places. If you watch, families absolutely tend to walk similarly and different from each other. So there are ways that bodies can move more effectively and efficiently and enjoyably than others. And. But we can habituate to things that are not good and then we just lose the ability to recognize how not good they are are until we discover something that feels better. And like you said, it takes a while just to get that in your brain enough that your brain goes. That’s the default. So we’ll link to that.

Judy Benjamin

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Steven Sashen

Judy, it’s been an absolute pleasure. I’m so thrilled that we’ve been able to help you in the small way that we have. I wish we could have done more, frankly, but this has been, this is an amazing accomplishment for any human being and for you personally and for the reasons that you did it. I’m just, just thrilled and grateful and can’t thank everyone enough. Do me a favor and just hit everyone with the URLs again where people can find you and what you’re up to for these last couple of weeks. And even if it’s after November 15, 2025, go there and find out more about how you can be helpful.

Judy Benjamin

Absolutely. It’s Judy walks.com and Judy walks America for the Instagram and TikTok account. And if they really want to send me an email, they can send one to judy@access longevity.com access longevity.com well, once again, appreciate you putting it in the in the show notes and thank you for inviting me and thank you, thank you, thank you for supporting and sponsoring with the shoes. Honestly, it’s on. I honestly believe I would not have been able to do this without zero shoes. Oh, that’s honest truth.

Steven Sashen

I I a. It’s wonderful to hear. And like you said, sometimes doing things, to be successful, you have to do hard things. Running a business like this is really hard. And it’s hearing stories like yours, not as extreme as yours, but the, hey, you’ve changed my life in some way. We hear it every day. And it’s why everyone in this company is committed to what we’re doing. And my wife and I couldn’t be more grateful. I mean, after 16 years, we never imagined this is where we would be and that we would have helped millions of people discover, cover the comfort, fun and benefits of natural movement. And we just want to do more and more of that. So if you’ve been listening to this and you want to help as well. It’s really easy to do that. Head over to our website for the podcast at least, which is www.jointhemovementmovement.com. there’s nothing you need to do to join. There’s no fee, there’s no dance you have to do every morning, although that’d be really fun. It’s just a place where you can find previous episodes, all the ways to engage with us on social media. If you want to find the podcast somewhere else, we can show you where to do that. And the gist of it is help us spread the word and create a movement. Movement. Give us a like and a thumbs up and a review and a five star rating somewhere. Just spread the word, subscribe to hear about new episodes. And like I like to say, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. And more importantly, most importantly, just go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Add DANGER to Your Workouts

marketdomination — Wed, 15 Oct 2025 00:00:21 +0000

Uncover the secrets of optimal fitness, longevity, and peak performance as we dive into the fascinating world of fascia and movement.

In this episode of The Movement Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Dr. Edythe Heus, Founder and Creator of Rev6 and a movement expert, who explores the importance of incorporating risk and novelty into fitness routines for optimal performance and enjoyment. From martial arts anecdotes to promoting natural movement patterns, this episode inspires listeners to embrace challenges and live life feet first.

Key Takeaways:

→ How fascia plays a crucial role in movement and overall health.

→ Activating small muscles through unstable surfaces showcases the importance of fascia in coordinating movement.

→ The interconnectedness of fascia and muscles is crucial in movement and strength training.

→ Walking barefoot on various surfaces can improve foot reflexes and aid in the development of arches in the feet.

→ An optimal fitness program should include novelty, sensory stimulation, complexity, and precise sequencing.

Dr. Edythe Heus is a chiropractor specializing in kinesiology, Stecco Fascial Manipulation, and functional neurology. With a deep passion for movement and how the body functions in harmony, she can identify dysfunctions simply by observing someone’s walk. Over the years, she developed Rev6, a movement system designed to restore coordination, enhance vitality, and improve ease of movement. To share her insights, Dr. Heus created The Essentials, a teaching tool that helps practitioners assess and correct inefficiencies and compensations in movement. Her patients, from injury survivors to elite performers, have been her greatest teachers, revealing connections that no textbook could explain. Today, Dr. Heus continues to treat patients, certify doctors and trainers in Rev6, and create new exercises to help individuals meet the physical and neurological demands of daily life. She’s always observing movement, even in her dreams.

Connect With Dr. Edythe Heus:

Website

Join the MOVEMENT Movement
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Get your first 3 months of Rev6 On-Demand subscription by going to https://rev6.fit/promo/ and entering the code XERO

Connect with Steven:

Xero Shoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

If your exercise program, whatever that happens to be, if it doesn’t terrify you, maybe it’s not doing what you need it to do. We’re gonna find out more about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who wanna know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting typically, you know, feet first, those things at the end of your legs that are your foundation. And also here we break down the propaganda, the mythology and sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, play, do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do and to do it enjoy effectively and efficiently. And did I say enjoyably? Trick question. I know I did. I say it every time. Because if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to stick with it. And of course we’re going to add the risk element to that in today’s conversation. So I’m Stephen Sashin, co founder, chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes and we call this the Movement Movement because we and that involves you are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do instead of getting in the way with things that are being sold to you as beneficial. The way you are part of that we is really simple. Go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. there’s nothing you need to actually do to join. That’s just the domain we got. But you can opt in to hear about upcoming and just released episodes. You can find all the previous episodes, of which there are quite a few. You can find all the different ways you can engage with us on social media. And that’s the gist of it. But most importantly to really help spread the word. So give us a great review, give us a five star something somewhere, a thumbs up, somewh hit the bell icon on YouTube when you subscribe. So you hear about the new episodes that drop, you get the gist. If you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. Okay, so after that fun intro about terror and risk, Edith, do me a favor, tell people who you are and what you’re doing here.

Edythe Heus

So my name is Dr. Edith Hoyce and I’m the creator and founder of Rev6, a revolution in motion. So that’s why I’m here. I’m part of the movement. Movement Rev 6 is a fascially and neurologically based movement system that was the outcome of 18 years of clinical practice that taught me about patterns in the body and how the body moves from illness to wellness. And then I wanted to see if those same patterns applied in performance, from mediocre performance to outstanding performance and longevity. So it’s designed to restore function, to optimize performance, to extend your health span and play big for the rest of your life and something that you can do your entire life. I’m also a practicing chiropractor specializing in fascial manipulation, neurology. And I use Rev6 as my assessment tool and also as my medicine. And I give patients exercises that keep the treatment going. And sometimes people don’t even need treatment once they have enough Rev6 in their system, which has reorganized things. And I’m 69. I live my system. I’ve been doing it for 27 years. And I have less pain. I feel like I’m more mobile than I was in my 20s. And I want that for everybody.

Steven Sashen

That would be a good thing. As a 63 year old person. I appreciate that one quite a bit. All right, so there’s a lot to unpack in there. Let’s start. Since you mentioned fascia and fascial as an adjective for that twice, for people who are not hip to what that means, start there. And then I want to ask you, and I have to say these things because I’ll forget them if I don’t say them in real time about some of those patterns that you were observing and what that means in terms of your diagnosis, diagnostic process, and what you’re then having people start to experiment with and do.

Edythe Heus

Okay, so fascia is an interconnected web of connective tissue in the body. And it answered so many questions for me that I had for, you know, the first 35 years in practice because I was working from a model of muscle testing and neurology. And then when I started training professional athletes, I’m like, something is happening that’s faster here than the nervous system. And it wasn’t until I studied with the Steccos, it’s a fascial family in Italy, that everything came true for me. Like it, it held all of the answers to questions that I had. So fascic can be remodeled.

Steven Sashen

And so I’m going to interrupt you, so what were some of the questions that you had?

Edythe Heus

So when I started the training, So I had 18 years of clinical practice working with many people with neurological problems, but also Broadway performers. I was practicing in New York City. And the other thing is that everybody walks in New York. And in my, by my third month in practice, I realized that the quality of a person’s life is directly related to their feet. So I became very dedicated to knowing about the feet, treating the feet. And then once I started to apply this, the first to training, to sports training, was I developed ways of exercising the feet and the feet. It’s fascinating because the feet have such a unique fascial arrangement and so many sensory cells and endings in them, that the correlation between the environment, your feet, and your brain is profound. And we don’t take advantage of that. So what I was seeing is I would put athletes on unstable surfaces. So I pretty much pioneered barefoot and unstable training for athletes, and that was 27 years ago. And I would put them on unstable surfaces, and it would just happen so fast. It’s like the nervous system didn’t have time to really create the response. But when you think about the design of the fascia, it’s around every single cell, so it’s almost more of a mechanical. So as one cell, you know, dies or slowly shrinks, your fascia immediately changes. And then as new cells form, your fascia is constantly changing. And that’s so empowering because you can manipulate the fascia through exercise or through manual therapy.

Steven Sashen

And so, again, I’m just trying to get a question in my mind that you’re walking into that training going, um. Or even more, you clearly went to this training with some idea that there was something there for you that you hadn’t quite gotten your hands around. And I’m just really curious, like, what that is. Whenever we go for something, we’re either crossing our fingers because someone sold us something, or it’s like, you know, feeling that little sense of hold on. I have a hunch that there’s something here.

Edythe Heus

For me, I think, you know, the interconnectedness of the body, you know, and the speed with which it happened, and how when you work and exercise the feet, you have full body change. You know, even on people that have feet with neuropathy, you still get changes. So there’s more going on than nervous system. The nervous system and the fascia actually acts as, like, the synapse between the nerve and the muscle fibers. So it’s responsible for coordinating movement, in.

Steven Sashen

Fact, backing up a half a step. So when you took some of these athletes or Broadway performers, put them on an unstable surface, and I’m dying to hear what kind of services you’re talking about. What specific kinds of changes were you seeing in that rapid way?

Edythe Heus

So you get to see things really kick in. So let me give you an example. You know, I had, you know, the years of coming up with these concepts of how the body works. And then when I started working with athletes, I was gifted with some of the best athletes in the world, like prototypes that actually proved my concepts. And when you put people on unstable surfaces, you’re activating the small muscles. And for me, it’s the small muscles that are the megaphones that tell the large muscles what to do. So I developed a different concept of what the core is, and watching the athletes reinforced that I was right about what the core is. And I trusted my clinical experience more than the science, because a lot of the things that I’m playing with, there hasn’t been research done until maybe 10 years ago.

Steven Sashen

Okay. So then again, pardon me, I’m really trying to nail you down on this, because I’m trying to get an image in my mind of somebody walks in, they have a particular issue, you’re putting them on something that you were calling unstable. I’m literally closing my eyes so I can visualize this, like, as I’m describing it, and then something changes, and we’re seeing a different effect. Can you. Can you spell that one out for me? So I can really get a picture in my mind of, like, a prototypical athlete, for the sake of argument, comes in complaining about something, stepping on a something, and then you’re seeing a something.

Edythe Heus

Yes. Okay, so let’s say an athlete has a shoulder problem, okay. And they’ve been getting PT and everything for that shoulder, and it persists. I put them on an exercise ball, I put them through a move that I designed, and suddenly their shoulder range of motion is improved. So the ball, in this case, has texture, it has instability. The move itself is pushing them into a more unstable arrangement, and then the shoulder changes.

Steven Sashen

Got it. That’s very interesting. And again, just to highlight this and kind of reiterate what you’re saying or make sure I got it. So part of what we’re talking about is that. And, you know, even when I’ve talked about fascia with a number of people, and it’s one of those things that seems so crazy because most people don’t have. And it’s really hard to have a frame of reference for a. Basically an organ that we don’t even know we have, for lack of a better way of putting it, that, you know, this is something that interpenetrates almost every part of our body, and yet it’s not something we grew up learning about. We don’t hear our doctors talking about it. We don’t understand how it does and doesn’t work. We will hear something about doing fascial release. And everyone has a different opinion about what that is. Most of which are not true. And because it’s fundamentally invisible, I mean, to us conceptually, if not physically, unless you’re doing an autopsy and like, looking at things. It’s such a tricky thing for people to wrap their brain around. Including this idea that doing something that’s impacting the fascia in the feet and ankles is having this almost immediate impact on something on the other side of the body. It’s just hard for people to wrap their brains around.

Edythe Heus

So I’m so glad that you’re bringing this up because I had a patient that had back pain for 27 years and I treated his fascia and you can feel densifications in the fascia. And he called me up two days later and he said, so that was fascia? And I said, yeah. He said, well, in my world, and he did robotic surgery, fascia is the shit that gets in the way. And yeah, isn’t that crazy?

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, there was. I wish I remember the podcast that I heard this on. There was a researcher who, he has renamed the fascia as the interstitium. And it was something that when he was processing, I think he was a pathologist, and when he was processing tissue, it was literally something that, you know, in the way and never really thought about it and then discovered something. I wish I remember how it was about, basically that this is a communication network. It’s almost a hydraulic communication network network. And because of that, it is that sort of instantaneous thing. We think about nerves having to send signals through the axons and across the nerve, the synapse, et cetera, is a very different thing than if you imagine, for lack of this, a very hyper simplistic thing. Taking a string and you pull on one end, the other end moves instantly. It doesn’t have. There’s not a spring mechanism. It’s just like this immediate thing. And that’s the kind of effect we’re talking about. And again, it seems so crazy that you do pull on the string at the bottom of your foot and the string at the in your shoulder changes in some way that creates that rather dramatic experience.

Edythe Heus

Well, let’s add a little to it, because fascia is filled with, you know, collagen fibers for structure and elastic fibers for elasticity. And I can’t explain what it feels like to people to have healthy fascia. It is truly experiential. And for 27 years I’ve asked people to explain what I do, and they are Speechless. So it took a long time for me to be able to figure out the language. But what happens? And that’s what happens with Rev6, which is why if there were a better system out there, I’d be doing it. But you get this elasticity and this rebound in your tissues. So you feel that interconnection. You feel the changes in the tension at every age. So even though as we age, we get stiffer, you don’t have to. And that’s the. It’s so rewarding for me because I teach virtual classes and I watch the participants go from, you know, segment. Segmental issues like, oh, their back’s really tight, or they can’t open their chest. And to see this lengthening and rebounding, that’s a full body experience. And it’s like you feel expanded. It translates into how you live your life. You have, you know, you’re upright, your things are effortless, you don’t have to grit things. You suddenly start thinking about all the efficient ways that you can live your life. And I just, it goes to the point of just almost like a spiritual expansion. So I know I can go down that rabbit hole very easily.

Steven Sashen

Well, that, that’s an interesting one. I’ll. I’ll describe a semi related personal experience that I’ve been having recently. So my right knee, 30, 31 years ago, something like that, I was an all American gymnast. And when I was about 32 years old. So that was. Well, yeah, yeah, 31 years ago, I landed and twisted at the same time and heard the following sound come out of my knee. I went, ooh, I think that’s the end of my career. So they removed about 30% of the meniscus on the outside, the lateral side of my knee. And frankly, when I got out of regular shoes and started doing what I’m doing here, everything’s been fine. But there’s nothing supporting that outside of my knee. So about six months ago, it started bugging me a little bit. And when I got an X ray recently, I’m kind of bone on bone on the outside. Now I’m getting to the part that’s pointing to what you’re saying, interestingly, because of all the things I’m doing to compensate for having that, that weird instability and misalignment, I was having some pain around my ankle. Ish. And I say ish because it moves like within one step, it’ll move from the inside of my leg to the outside of my leg and vice versa. But it was pretty consistent. And over the last couple weeks, as I’ve been doing certain things, it would spontaneously just disappear. And in the moment when that pain, even when it was mild, disappeared, I was just flooded with euphoric feelings. Just the bliss component from that little bit of pain just disappearing. I’d be walking the dog and I’d have to stop because it was just like waves of enjoyment and so very different method of getting there. But I don’t think people have necessarily had that experience of something changing so quickly that it literally is this massive endorphin rush.

Edythe Heus

I agree. I think an important thing in a person’s exercise system, And I know Rev6 does this, is it keeps you on the edge of flow state. So it’s very easy to drop into flow state. That sense of that euphoric feeling, the hypofrontalis, you know, you’re, you’re not thinking, you’re not self conscious, you’re just like in the moment, you know, part of all that is. So I, I want that for everybody.

Steven Sashen

Well, and we’re going to dive into that a little more. But you gave me an interesting segue to how we opened this conversation or at least how I introed it, which because I use the word terrifying because I was exaggerating for the fun of it. But you, when we talked briefly before we started this conversation, used the word risk. That if your exercise doesn’t have a risk component, so that’s problematic. And you just kind of alluded to that a little. So let’s jump into that, shall we?

Edythe Heus

So I think the thing that’s most shocking when I talk about Rev6 is my recipe for an optimal exercise program includes the perception of risk. Now I’ve seen, you know, high level athletes standing on the flat side of a Bosu ball with their eyes looking like they’re terrified, like, what’s the worst thing that’s going to happen standing on a BOSU ball? You know, and they do crazy things. So I got it that, you know, and you saw their performance amp up. They were all in. When you’ve got that perception of risk and it’s novel, we are designed, that’s in our DNA, to wake up and handle risk. So like I’ve got, I mean it’s pretty interesting when you talk to senior living facilities that want to incorporate, you know, my seated program and I’m like, perception of risk. And it’s like we’re trying to stop falls and it’s like you have to train people for falls because when you train for that you develop your like Spidey sense. I can’t tell you how many people have said because of Rev 6 I’ve been. I knew I was going, you know, that I was at risk and I could avoid it, right? Injury after injury was prevented because of all of the ingredients that are built into rev.

Steven Sashen

This is going to sound really bizarre, but way back when, when I was doing a lot of martial arts training, there was the whole thing about perception of risk gets very bizarre. Like I was living in Manhattan and there was be a time, I remember one in particular where this cab driver cut me off on my bicycle and I nearly crashed into him because he cut me off. And I yelled and he slams on the brakes, jumps out of his cab and yells at me, I’m going to kill you. And I remember thinking this will be interesting. And you know, normally, you know, it’s a little terrifying as a big guy. I’m not a big guy, but I had literally just come out of a martial arts class and all I could think was, I mean I was, had been training for risky situations in lower risks environments. And literally I just went, I kind of kicked back on one leg. I went, all right, give it a shot. He’s like, what? I’m going to kill you. I said, I know, why don’t you try it already? No, I’m going to, I’m going to kill you. Stop talking about and start doing something. He goes, if I ever see you again, then he jumps in the cab. So. And I had a couple of situations like that where I, I in a situation that otherwise would have been risky. It was just really interesting. And I didn’t know. I mean, I can’t say that I had confidence that I was going to win or defend myself or hurt this guy or whatever. I was just like really wondering what was going to happen next. And that’s apparently very disarming when someone is threatening you.

Edythe Heus

It’s perfect. What a great strategy. I think we have something, we all have something to learn from that.

Steven Sashen

Well, I also know people who are professional fighters and when people don’t know they’re professional fighters and kind of pick on them or do something to agitate them, the look on their face is so funny. It’s just bemused. They don’t get violent back, they don’t get there, but it’s like you don’t know what you’re doing. This is really a bad idea.

Edythe Heus

Do you really want to do this?

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And again, that, that thing of like just being bemused is very confusing and usually calms people down. So and but when. I do think when my mother was in an assisted living facility, it was interesting. They’re trying to protect them from everything, and the effect was just completely contrary. I mean, they became less and less mobile, less and less able to do anything because they. I mean, if for. No. The reason, then they put them in super big thick shoes where they couldn’t feel anything, they couldn’t respond to anything, and everything was basically padded and protected. And they had to kind of ease their way into everything they were doing instead of getting any feedback to let them know how to respond.

Edythe Heus

It’s sad. It is really sad how we don’t support our seniors, but the generation that’s coming up, you know, I mean, I’m older than you are, but we were active. You know, we have fun in our bodies. You know, we want to be active and healthy until we.

Steven Sashen

Till we die, until we make those younger people really sick of us. So they find it a little annoying, the so. But, you know, and backing up to just that perception of risk, it really is funny. So for people who don’t know what a Bosu ball is, imagine a big round fit ball and then cut it in half and put a base on it. So it’s still this inflatable half dome. And it’s funny you bring it up. I was talking to David Weck, the guy who invented it, just the other day. And so let’s. If we can give people a taste of what we’ve been talking about. Anything you can think of, just to give people a little flavor in their own body, since we’ve been chatting about it for a little bit. That’ll be dreamy. Sure.

Edythe Heus

So I start with an assessment, and I came up with a way of teaching people how to see what I see, but also checking in with your body. And I refer to them as the essentials. And there are six essentials. The first one is mind your feet, hollow your abs, lift your torso, float your head, relax your back, and then your shoulders just fall into place. This is something that people can do as a standing meditation. They can keep checking in while they’re walking, while they’re sitting, because everyone is connected to everyone else. And so sometimes if you’re sitting, it might be harder for you to access your feet or to access your abs. And I could get into great specificity about exactly where you engage your abs, but I’m not going to do that, even though it’s just such a cool fascial arrangement. So, you know, if you’re sitting, then you. You learn how to lift your torso. And all of that converts into improved posture, gait mastery over your body, and better body awareness. So from that, I will. I have built many exercise sequences. So it’s not. The exercises alone are not as significant as the. The order that you put the exercises in. So it’s like, I just use the analogy of a combination lock. You can know all the numbers, but if you don’t know the order, you’re not going to unlock the lock. So we, in. Most of my exercises involve you’re always barefooted, you’re working on an exercise ball or a gymnastics ball. You’re rolling around, you’re connecting those essentials. The whole time, we’re taking advantage of the shape of the ball, the texture of the ball, the tension, its instability factor as we roll around on it. And then I think, you know, one of the most important things is the footwork. So I was never happy with, like, oh, just curl your toes, bring a towel towards you, or do. There’s another exercise where you have to do it all the time where you try and bring your toes towards your heels. And I’m like, that’s just too boring. And so there was a slam board at a studio that I was going to in New York, and it’s just used to stretch your Achilles. And I’m like, okay, so this is a perfect angle. So I just stood on it in four different positions and. And noticed that I was activating all three arches in the feet, using the toes the right way, connecting the feet to the knees to the hips, and it connected all of the essentials. And then I had some of these, the foam rollers, and I’m like, okay, if I can do this on the slant board, foam rollers, like, perfect. So I got a cut, a foam roller in half, half stood on it with my toes in, toes out, up on the balls of your feet. And once again, I’m targeting all of the arches. But then there’s all the neurology that’s happening with it, the balance. So we incorporate that. Use the round side of the Bosu ball with those same foot positions, the flat side of the Bosu ball. And so all of the exercises are complex. Every part of the body is engaged in every exercise. I don’t like isolation. A lot of how training is is based on a lack of understanding of the connectedness and the fascia. Like, basically, you don’t have to do pec work. You just do lower ab work. And your strength of your shoulders is dependent upon the movement of your shoulder blades on your rib cage and your shoulder blades connection to your lower abs, Then you have to consider how important the lower abs are in connecting the pelvic floor to your back, to the fascia and muscles of your lumbar region, all the way up your thoracic region, but even more importantly, the tiny muscles of the spine. So does that kind of give you an idea?

Steven Sashen

It gives me an idea. And what I. And I like the idea of. I think I’m. I guarantee I’ve got a foam roller cut in half somewhere in my house. I have a. I have like, one of everything. And my collection of fitnessy things is ridiculous in no small part, because anytime I’m at a big event, people keep giving me stuff and I’m like, sure. So it is a little silly. So. Yes. So you gave me a picture. What I want to do is, for people who are watching slash listening, is see if there’s. Even though everything you just said, especially the part where these are complex things, it’s not a simple something. Like you said, not doing toe scrunches, not doing short foot, not doing a kind of isolated or even isometric isolated exercise. But is there something that you can walk people through so they can have the barest taste of what you were just saying?

Edythe Heus

Yes.

Steven Sashen

Great.

Edythe Heus

All right, so we’ll go with the very fundamental everyone’s. Go to favorite exercise. You squat behind the ball, press your pubic bones into the ball, drape over the ball so that the front of your chin or your lips are on the ball and your head is just dangling. So you. Your whole spine is long and your toes, all 10 toes are in contact with the floor. So that means that your knees are automatically lining up over your second and third toe. So from that squat, where you’re also lengthening your pelvic floor, floor, you push forward with your feet. But eventually it’s more of the feet initiated. The pelvic floor rebounds, propelling you forward. And then you cushion with your hands, wrists, elbows, shoulders, and your shoulder blades glide. And then you come back. So you’ve got the weight of your head, the weight of your pelvis rocking you forward and backwards effortlessly. So it builds fascial tone and rebound. And because of the autonomic nervous system running along the spine and their connection to your cerebellum, you have dramatic changes in mood in the way the autonomic nervous system works in stress reduction. So it’s a very powerful, simple exercise, but it has to be done right.

Steven Sashen

It sounds very infant. Like in some way, I can’t even Describe why, but it does.

Edythe Heus

Kids watch. Kids give them a gymnastics ball, watch what they do with it, and you’re going to see healthy, normal movement that’s playful that we need to be doing as, as adults.

Steven Sashen

Got it. So for that. So for anyone who does not have a gymnastics ball, go get one. Go on Craigslist. People are giving me away all the time. So there’s no.

Edythe Heus

But all balls are not created equal.

Steven Sashen

No, all balls are. Well, let’s talk about that. But I do want to say if there’s, if there were ever a. An item that you could find at every yard sale in the history of yard sales in the last 10 years, that’s it. So talk about the difference between different balls then.

Edythe Heus

So I actually get balls made for me from Italy because they’re the only. I mean, I have gone through probably a hundred balls because you don’t want it so loose. Okay, this is what I say. Does your. Does the tension of your ball or the texture of your ball match up with healthy fascia? You know, like if you sit on the ball or you drape over and there’s a lot of give, is that what you want out of your tissue?

Steven Sashen

Interesting. So to be clear, this is not just a question of inflation.

Edythe Heus

No, no, because it can’t be over inflated because then that’s too tight. And so that’s a tension that doesn’t feel good in your body. So use. You know, I have a professional athlete and she said, I consider my ball my best training partner, you know, and so. And the ball has to be. So there’s this tone that is not tight and not loosey goosey. And the amount of pressure in the ball is also very precise. And people don’t know what that feels like. I try and give guidance on my website. Eventually though, when their fascia gets healthy, they may have to put like two pumps because it’s off by just like a morsel of improper tone, you know, so the more you refine that, like, I sometimes wonder, am I like creating more sensory divergent people? But, you know, you get so sensitive and aware. But I’d rather live in that world, you know, than, you know, not recognize things as they’re coming.

Steven Sashen

So I’m just imagining just an army of ball snobs who. They go to someone else’s houses and see a ball. It’s like, oh, please. It just becomes a very interesting dinner conversation. In the same way, I’m a rowing snob, so I know how to row. And anytime I’m either watching a TV show or movie or I’m in a gym and I watch people rowing incorrectly. And all that means mostly is that after they’ve pulled, then they just push the handles over their bent knees instead of straightening their knees first and then moving the. What would be the oars. And the way you think about it, if you have to push, if you have to lift up to get over your knees, you just put the oars in the water and you’ve stopped yourself. So I’m not a ball snob yet, but I’m a rowing snob. And I can imagine being. I can, I can think of a number of things that I could get even more snobby about.

Edythe Heus

I think the more tools the, or the more we know and the more like your attunement with the feet, it’s going to translate into needing precision.

Steven Sashen

It’s really true. I mean, one of my regrets, which I don’t really have regret regrets. But I wish that I had the psychic ability to have known that 16 plus years ago. I would have been doing what I’m doing now because I would have measured certain things or at least tried to measure certain things that I couldn’t measure or didn’t measure and don’t know if it was possible. So for example, when I first started walking around my home, there’s a bunch of gravel of various kinds. And when I was doing that in bare feet, it was unpleasant. I mean, I wasn’t doing it like to be masochistic, just every now and then I’d step on something, for example, and. But over time I noticed that it was not a problem. And it wasn’t because my, I built up a bunch of calluses. My feet became more responsive and reflexive and reactive. So I would just kind of bend around things where I wouldn’t put so much weight on that front foot until I was confident unconsciously that I could handle that. And I also feel like my reflex arc improved, that if I, if I did step on something unpleasant, I would step off of it more quickly, just reflexively. And I had no way of measuring that. And last but not least, I never took any sort of photos to show my unbelievably ridiculously comic flat feet compared to what they are now, where I developed an arch, in fact all three of them. And, and so those are the three things that I wish I had as a before and after in some way. And I imagine a similar thing from what we’re describing, like the before and after people had experience. If you don’t have a method, you’re reaching for something, you don’t have a method of really measuring that you might even not even notice how dramatic the change could be over time.

Edythe Heus

I think that, and something I would like to do and am in the process of doing is measuring the result of Rev6 on kind of traditional explosiveness jumping. And I believe that it translates well. But I want to mention to you, I probably was one of those children that was neurodivergent way back when, before it had a diagnosis. Because I can still recall I did the same thing. As far as walking and running on gravel, I can still tell you the difference in the feel of the grass in all of my neighbors. And I think children, I mean, it’s so good for brain development. The more we stimulate or have access and engage, the more real estate we have in our brain. And the translation into, you know, intelligence, memory, all kinds of cognition is dramatic.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, this is kind of one of those not rocket science sort of obvious things. When you think about it. The amount of space that your brain reserves for getting information from your feet is very large. If you’re not giving it that information, it basically shuts down because, like, why waste the energy? But it’s not like the brain is just discrete units. If you’re shutting down something, it’s impacting things across the entire spectrum. I mean, this is just screamingly obvious. And yet again, we take people of various types and put them in footwear that doesn’t let their feet bend, flex, move or feel. And we wonder why we have all sorts of fill in the blank problems. The number of times I want to be careful when I say this, the number of times someone will say to me, I put on your shoes. And within a very short period of time, I mean, literally sometimes that day my fill in the blank issue disappeared. And I’m not making a medical claim, but we hear this all of the time. And it’s. And what I say is, it’s just because we got out of the way of the thing that was causing that problem to begin with. And it, it’s. But we. The other thing our brains are really sadly good at is acclimating to things like, you’re going to keep putting me through that unpleasant thing. I’ll stop registering it because what’s the point? You’re not listening, you’re not changing it. So we’ll just shut up. And that’s of course problematic.

Edythe Heus

I am offended by the word adaptation. Adapting, you know, it’s like, no, yeah, I’m not helping you adapt. I’m Helping you restore what’s inherently in our design.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, exactly. This is the, and, and what amazes me is when this is another human thing is you say things like that to people and they will fight you. They want to argue for their limitations rather than experience something on the other side of it. It’s like it’s, there’s so much of our identity wrapped up in certain movement patterns or the way it’s been for a while or you know, I walk the same way my fill in the blank parent walks. I mean my joke is I spent, let’s see, from the time I was 12 to the time I was 18. Very, I mean that’s my all American gymnast years. So I spent that six years very actively gymnastics thing and then I spent 40 years trying to get the gymnast out of my body. That was a, that was a tough road to hoe.

Edythe Heus

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

So, so what else have we left out? I mean, I think this is a great, I mean my, my goal in this conversation. Let me rephrase that. What be emerged as my goal in this conversation is to give people a sense of curiosity about this because it is so much non. Not part of our normal conversation. Is there anything we left out in the. Let’s get people wondering about fascia and wondering about what you’re doing, etc.

Edythe Heus

Well, I, I, I think sharing with you the recipe that I think is important for an optimal fitness program or exercise system is novelty. You have to have instability, sensory stimulation, complexity, exercises that integrate the whole body, precise sequencing, dynamic loading. You have to include eccentric in that the perception of risk and you want it to be able to that everything automates and that you get to drop easily into flow state. So not many exercise programs satisfy those requirements and we need a whole paradigm shift in what to expect expect out of our exercise and how to achieve it.

Steven Sashen

I think that’s true and I think that. And correct me if I’m wrong or correct me if you think differently. I think that evolves over time in certain ways. There are certain things that at 63 I’m not doing like when I was 20, although there’s certain things that I am still doing exactly the same way. And there are certain things that are more interesting or not tolerable interesting to me now than they were then and vice versa. I mean way back when, for example, I would happily, you know, do these very long workouts that would leave me pretty wasted and the next day if I felt sore, I just kind of stretched till I felt able to go and do the next thing at this Age, I can’t do that. That said, I’m still doing my exercise stuff. I mean, I’m a competitive sprinter. The way I lift weights is very, very high intensity. But it’s sort of. But I have way more rest and it’s way shorter. It’s way. And. And frankly, it’s more fun because it’s. Even. It’s as hard as I can possibly go. Now, for me, that’s one piece. And I’m not suggesting this is the right wing, but part of. Part of what I’m doing now includes things that are just so satisfying psychologically because they match how much time I have, how much brain space I have, what I like to do with my body, the way I like to see things progressing or challenging. And so, other than, I guess where I’m going is this, it seems like. And again, let me know if you think I’m completely full of it when I say this. There’s kind of a baseline of something that we all need to have to be functional human beings as we continue to age. And then there’s going to be idiosyncratic things that are unique to your little whatever. Like, you know my line at the beginning, if you’re not having a good time, do something until you are. And there’s some people who like competing, other people do not like competing. There are some people who like lifting heavy things, other people do not like lifting heavy things. And so that’s the way I’m kind of framing it as like, here’s the stuff that keeps you able to do everything else that you might want to do that’s unique for you.

Edythe Heus

I love it. I mean, my goal is to help people be able to do what they love, doing better. And once you have a healthier, more mobile system, sometimes you make different choices.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Edythe Heus

And I can’t tell you how many young athletes, you know, like mid-30s is kind of when pros kind of get kicked off the team if they’re injured or whatever. Said, I wish I knew you sooner. I wish I had this work sooner. And that’s sad because I would love to see young people have it, but they think that they can get to where they are with natural talent and grit, and you can’t. You lose that.

Steven Sashen

I have watched. I won’t name names. I have watched certain track coaches where their entire strategy is beating up their athletes and seeing who survives. And I’ve watched how some of those athletes who do not survive clearly could have had incredible professional careers, but they were beaten to a pulp and lost the ability to do that. And I find that. And the annoying part is these coaches, because they’ve had success, AKA people who’ve come out of that firestorm and lived, they get the cream of the crop. And so they keep getting the opportunity to work with all these amazing athletes and destroy a big percentage of them. Even a little thing. When I was in college, there were these two sisters who were on the gymnastics team who had been coached by their parents up until they went to college, and they only worked out three days a week. They were national champions. They came to college and they were working out five, six days a week. Injury, injury, injury, end of their career.

Edythe Heus

That’s not unusual.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Edythe Heus

You know, I feel as though the training that most athletes go through destroys our best athletes. So then it’s survival of the fittest.

Steven Sashen

So.

Edythe Heus

Because a lot of the best athletes have this very sensitive, refined nervous system that actually will improve the fun of the game with their, you know, if you’ve got players lasting longer, they figure out new strategies. And that’s going to. For me, I think that that would turn things into. I’m sorry about that. Turn our sport from, you know, you know, like a muscling sport to really like a chess game on the fields. And I would love to see that.

Steven Sashen

And, and, and you know, it could be a chess game with some really big, strong, fast people, depending on the sport.

Edythe Heus

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can be big, strong and fast, quick and dynamic.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I want, I would love to see that as well. Speaking as a guy who had both shoulders and biceps put back together after a gymnastics career, I’ve never, I haven’t met a gymnast who has survived with shoulders. Mostly because when we’re young, we don’t have the strength to support ourselves through the things that we’re doing to the rest of our body and putting strain on our shoulders. But that’s a whole other.

Edythe Heus

Yeah. Something or other.

Steven Sashen

So if people want to find out more about what you are doing with Rev6, how can they find you and it and where? What are their next steps?

Edythe Heus

Okay, so if you go to Rev6fit, it has all of my social listed on there. I have a school community that you can join. I teach virtual classes and I’ve got a huge on demand library of probably five or six hundred sequences. Really nicely organized. You also can sign up for, you know, a posture and gait analysis with me and I can give you five exercises that you do and there’s all the information on sizing the ball and a bunch of free stuff. On the website and on YouTube.

Steven Sashen

Awesome. Well, I hope people do take advantage of that. And then I want to hear what their experience is and I want to hear what your experience is with their experience. So everyone please go see what you find and have fun. And in the meantime, just a reminder, head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com Again, nothing to join. There’s no fee. There’s no dance we do every morning before we get to work. It’s just that’s the domain that I got where you’ll find all the previous episodes all the way. You can engage with us on social media if you want to find the podcast somewhere other than where you found it, where you can do that. And of course, if you want to reach out and pass any info over to me, questions, comments, recommendations of people who should be on the podcast, I’m still waiting for someone to get me. Someone who thinks I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome. I think that’ll be a fun conversation. Just drop an email to move M O V e. Join the movement. Movement.com and again, spread the word. Share all of what you’ve learned here. Pass people over to the website. That’s not an English sentence. But I’m running out of English sentences right now. Like I said before, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. And while you’re doing that, go out, have fun, and live life feet first.

New Discoveries About Your Feet

marketdomination — Wed, 17 Sep 2025 00:00:57 +0000

Think your shoes are helping your feet? You might be shocked by what the science actually says.

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen interviews Dr. Jenn Perez, Co-Founder and COO of Gait Happens, who joins the show to debunk foot myths and explain how modern footwear influences your movement. Drawing on emerging research and years of clinical teaching worldwide, Dr. Perez explains pronation, toe spring, the windlass mechanism, and why “foot strength” is finally measurable in minimalist footwear studies. She and host Steven Sashen discuss how to build resilient, pain-free feet by allowing them to function as they are naturally designed.

Key Takeaways:

→ Foot strength is more important than quadriceps strength in determining fall risk in the elderly.

→ Changes in gait and walking speed can be early indicators of mental decline and potential dementia diagnosis.

→ Flat feet and pronation are separate concepts with different implications for foot health.

→ Understanding foot anatomy is crucial in designing minimal shoes that support optimal foot function.

→ Foot strength and alignment are crucial for overall health, athletic performance, and fall prevention.

Dr. Jen Perez is the co-founder and COO of Gait Happens, a global leader in lower extremity education. As a chiropractor and gait specialist, Dr. Perez is passionate about educating both individuals and professionals on the importance of lower extremity biomechanics in obtaining meaningful results for patients. She holds a Doctorate in Chiropractic and a Bachelor’s of Science degree in Kinesiology with a concentration in Sports Medicine.

Based in Lafayette, CO, Dr. Perez also owns and operates Kinetic Chiropractic, where she offers personalized care and treatment to help patients restore optimal movement and alleviate pain. Through her online and in-person work, she has helped clients worldwide, with a focus on foot health and corrective exercise.

Dr. Perez has been featured on 9News and in publications such as Women’s Health, National Geographic, and CNN Underscored. In addition to her teaching and course writing with Gait Happens, she has also lectured to numerous educational institutions and associations, including the Canadian Pedorthic Association, Palmer College of Chiropractic, and the Florida Chiropractic Association.

Connect With Dr. Jen Perez:

Website
Instagram

Connect with Steven:

Website

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Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

Okay, feet are pretty old. I think we can all agree to that. So there’s nothing new that we would know about feet, right? Wrong. There’s a lot going on, frankly, since the whole barefoot thing took off. A lot of people are paying attention to feet in a way they never have before. We’re going to hear more about that on today’s episode of the Movement. Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting feet first. You know, those things at the bottom of your legs. And we also break down the propaganda mythology and sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or do yoga or CrossFit, whatever you like to do enjoyably, effectively, efficiently. Did I say enjoyably? It’s a Monday. Oh no, I know I did. It’s a trick question. Because look, if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to keep doing what you are doing anyway. So find things that are fun. And we’re here to help you do that. I’m Stephen Sashen, co founder and chief barefoot officer here@xeroshoes.com or eu or.co.uk depending on where you are. And we call this the movement Movement because we including you, no pressure. I’ll tell you about that in a second. We are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your feet and the rest of your body do what it’s made to do without getting in the way and causing problems. So how the we part works, how the you part works, is go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes, all the ways you can engage with us on social media. Subscribe to hear about upcoming episodes of the podcast or episodes that just launched and basically give us a review somewhere, give us a thumbs up. Subscribe on YouTube, hit the bell icon. So you hear about what’s. In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. You know how it works. So let’s get started and have some fun. Jen, pleasure having you here. Do me a favor, tell people who you are and what you are doing here.

Jen Perez

Well, thank you for having me. I am Jen. So Dr. Jenn Perez. I am actually the co founder of Gate Happens and I am here because I like to talk about feet. So I mean truly like the biggest thing in my life is education and I am educating patients in the clinic, I am educating people across the globe and I’m also teaching other practitioners. So really talking about feet kind of is my life. But I like to make it fun. I like to make it interesting, and I like to make it relatable. Because, like you said, if we’re not having fun and if we’re not doing the things that we care about, then really, what’s the value? So my job isn’t just to bore you with foot facts, but really to empower you to keep moving and doing the things you love.

Steven Sashen

Well, we will be doing that. But you made me think of something. I remember being a kid and going to this one shoe store in when Bethesda, Maryland, was a tiny, little sleepy town. And I used to find it really weird, you know, somebody would have a job where they spend the whole time just putting things on your feet and looking at your feet. And for the last 16 years, that has been my job. And, of course, I find it totally fascinating. So if I could go back in time and apologize to that person for my bizarro thoughts, I would. Your judgment? Yeah.

Jen Perez

I mean, to be fair, I actually hated feet. Like, people kind of, like, they. They ask you, how do you. How’d you get into. Right. How’d you get into feet? Like, and it’s, like, such an odd conversation to have, but, like, I hated feet. I thought feet were gross. I wanted nothing to do with them. Even all the way through chiro school. So my background, I am a chiropractor. And even through chiro school, I actually wanted to specialize in shoulders. And so I was a softball player. D1 softball players in college. And I had chronic shoulder issues. Wanted to. Wanted to help overhead athletes throw better. Right. And I show up to this course. It was a rock tape course, which is a kinesiology. And I wanted to learn. The course wasn’t about shoulders, but it was. It was just a taping course, but I wanted to learn about shoulders.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Jen Perez

Well, little did I know that the instructor specialized in feet. And all of the examples were like, foot, foot, foot, and how the foot. How the foot affects gait mechanics. And I had never heard it explained like that, because I love biomechanics. I always have. I’ve loved physics and biomechanics and how it all works together. And so when she started talking, I’m like, wait a second. What? It’s not just this gross thing at the end of your leg, right? It’s like, no, it actually has an impact on how you hit the ground and how the ground hits you and how everything interacts. And it was like this curtain was drawn back, and I was sold. And now here we are ten years later, and that instructor of that course is my business partner, Dr. Courtney Conley.

Steven Sashen

Oh, what a shock. I mean, as people who know how to make feet interesting go, you and Courtney are at the top of the list.

Jen Perez

Thank you.

Steven Sashen

So that’s drawing me. All right. So, you know, my intro is saying that what we know about feet is changing dramatically, in part because when. When zero shoe started just shy of 16 years ago from when we’re recording this now, there was. Well, there was a little bit of research, in fact, the lawsuit against Vibram, the Five Fingers company, where they had made a unfounded medical claim that wearing their shoes could hurt your feet, or, sorry, wearing their shoes would help your feet make them stronger. I think that case fell apart and settled out of court because there was research on previously the Nike Free from Ruderman showing that by wearing a shoe that let your foot actually move, you could build foot strength compared to a traditional shoe. And I think that there’s enough connected dots that the plaintiffs realized this was not going to be a fruitful case. But there wasn’t very much. And then, of course, in the early days, from 2009 through Aye Yai Yai, I mean, a good 10 years, there wasn’t much more because certainly the real research needed to be funded by someone. And us little upstart companies did not have that kind of money. And the big companies were not inspired and incentivized to find out what they already knew, which was that they were hurting people. But in the last, really five years, maybe you’ve seen it a little longer. There’s more and more people getting grant money and research funding from wherever institutions they’re in to look at this. And there’s just a whole lot. So that was my long version of kind of the evolution of things. Do you see it similarly or differently?

Jen Perez

Absolutely, I see it very similarly. So I think, like you said, the interest has risen. And so with the interest, then comes the money. And so now we’re seeing more research coming out. And now there’s several research articles that show that walking in minimalist footwear can strengthen your feet. And it’s really the first category of footwear that can say that, because, you know, just logic and sense. Right. We know that toe spring reduces the amount of work your foot has to do.

Steven Sashen

Wait, let me pause there. So toe spring is most shoes. I don’t have one.

Jen Perez

Oh, I got one. I got you. Don’t worry. I’m prepared.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. Okay.

Jen Perez

So prepared.

Steven Sashen

Yes. So show and explain it for people who aren’t seeing it.

Jen Perez

Yes. Okay. So for those watching, I will show. For those listening, I will explain. But toe spring is if you imagine your shoe sitting level on the ground, and the toes are elevated up off the ground. Many shoes, modern footwear today, has this kind of upward angle of the toes. Well, when your toes inside.

Steven Sashen

And it can’t move down, so.

Jen Perez

And it can’t move down. Yeah. So it stays there. And so with the toes in that elevated position inside the shoe, the toes are extended. And what this does is it creates a rocker in the front of the shoe that allows you to kind of rocker over the shoe rather than having to extend the toes and propel yourself forward. So what that means is it reduces the amount of work it takes for you to propel forward. Now, common sense means that makes it easier, which means you don’t have to work as hard, which means over time, it’s going to weaken your foot again. That’s not the conclusion of the study. If we want to be technical. The study says it doesn’t require as much work, but you put that into application, and if you don’t use it, you lose it. Right. So it’s kind of this back and forth where that. That elevated toe and making things easier on the foot has been the conversation for so long. Let’s make it easy. Let’s support our feet. Let’s do all these things instead of actually strengthening the foot and the. All of the beautiful mechanisms that are built into the foot itself.

Steven Sashen

I was at a panel discussion again, and one of the guys I was debating was a guy from. I think it was Brooks. Don’t hold me for something if I’m wrong. Anyway. And he said something like, you know, our job is to give you a shoe that’s comfortable and propels you forward. And I grabbed the microphone from him. I said, can I be obnoxious for a second? And he goes, okay. I said, nothing propels you forward except your legs. The fact that there’s that toe spring, that rocker thing, doesn’t propel you forward. And I said, don’t.

Jen Perez

Your momentum does that.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. So don’t claim that you’re violating the laws of physics. And he took the microphone back, went, all right, yeah, we’re not violating the laws of physics. Then stop saying things like that.

Jen Perez

Yeah, that’s because nobody’s checking. Checking the work. Right.

Steven Sashen

Well, because to your point, it sounds good. It seems to make sense. Oh, it’s rocking you forward. That must mean that it’s moving you forward. No, no, no. Not doing that at all or similarly. This one’s even better. But this is not on toe spring. But I’ve got to do it. A, an ad that I saw from Nike was the most honest ad I ever saw from them. It said that the shoe gives you the feeling of propelling you forward. And this is about the cushioning in the heel where I tried a pair of those shoes they were talking about. And it does give you the feeling of propelling you forward because as your heel is coming off the ground, the foam is re expanding faster than your heel is moving. So it kind of taps you in the heel, so it feels like something’s happening. But of course, the, a, the bottom of the shoe is not on the ground, so it’s not doing anything. And even if the bottom of the shoe was on the ground, there’s no amount of expanding foam that’s going to move a 150 to 200 pound person.

Jen Perez

Yeah, well. And the loads that go through our feet when we’re walking can be six to eight times body weight. So, yeah, it’s, it’s absolutely insane. Which, when you think about that from a muscular perspective. Right. If there’s six to eight times our body weight going through our feet as we’re walking and especially as we’re running, the amount of strength that we need to keep our, our feet resilient is really incredible. And yet it’s one of the areas that we don’t ever work on actually strengthening.

Steven Sashen

You know, and when you say it that way, like, oh, my God, it has to be strong enough to support all that weight. People go, whoa, that’s, you know, I don’t think I can do that. It’s like, no, no, this is the joke is that you’ve been doing it most of your life.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

Without an issue. And many, many, I mean, like human beings evolved to be able to do that. That’s the amazing thing of the structure of the foot.

Jen Perez

Exactly.

Steven Sashen

Is that it can do that in a way that you’re knees, hips and back cannot.

Jen Perez

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Steven Sashen

So back to the evolution of research. What else have you been seeing?

Jen Perez

So one of the biggest changes I’ve seen in the last few years is kind of the conversation about how the foot works. And so for a very long time, again, I’ll use my foot model for those watching and explain for those listening. But so for a very long time, the conversation around the foot has been that it locks and unlocks. And here’s, here’s kind of what that means when the foot comes down to the ground, we Know that for every action, there’s an equal and opposite reaction. Talking about physics, right? So as we hit the ground, the ground hits us, and that’s called ground reaction force. Now, that force has to go somewhere and we need to be able to absorb it and dissipate it. So what we do with the foot, or how we used to describe this, was we used to unlock the foot, which is also known as pronation, where the foot starts to spread and the arch lowers down and we start to kind of spread out all of the structures of the foot. That was known as the unlocking of the foot. And then when we start to go into propulsion, so as the heel comes off the ground, we needed to lock down the foot to have this kind of locked system, if you will, to push off of. Well, what they’ve found, and Anya Belling and Luke Kelly, and they’ve got a really great crew out in Australia that put this research together, that the foot is a dynamic system. So the conversation is changing because, yes, the foot has to be able to lower and spread, but it also needs to be able to recoil. But it never locks, it never stops moving. It’s always moving and always dynamic. So I started talking about this in terms of, like, if you think about, like, locking as jumping on concrete, right? There’s no give there. So if you imagine we used to talk about the feet as concrete, now we’re kind of talking about the feet as trampolines, right? There’s always this constant lengthening and recoiling that’s happening, and everything is constantly moving.

Steven Sashen

It’s so interesting because we know that there’s a stretch reflex like everywhere else we know that. I mean, we can experience that phenomenon of you stretch something and it wants to come back. And it’s amazing to think that with all of the muscles, ligaments and tendons in the foot and ankle complex, people did not think, well, yeah, that’s got to be what’s happening there, too. And, and. And there is. You know, there’s also just historical things that are. That seem like they’re locking ideas, like the whole. Like the windlass mechanism, which. So I’ll let you explain that to people and how that could seem like a locking phenomenon, but it’s really a trampoline spring phenomenon.

Jen Perez

It totally is. That’s such a good example. So the windlass mechanism, for everybody listening, I want you guys to just put your feet flat on the ground, and all I want you to do is just lift up your toes. Now, specifically, we talk about the big toe, but just lift up all 10. So whenever you lift up your toes, your arch will naturally lift up. And that’s because of the tension in the tissues underneath the foot. This is known as the windlass mechanism. It’s a free mechanism. Basically, whenever our toes lift up, our arch lifts up. Now what we’re talking about is again, what we used to think is during propulsion, so when our heel comes up and we’re going to press off forward, that, that built in mechanism, because when you go to push off forward or extending the toes, we used to think that that lifting of the arch and the passive kind of structures were what propelled us forward. It went right along with we locked down the joints and the passive structures were what pushed us off. So it kind of was this team partnership of stiffness, if you will. Well now there’s been multiple studies that have looked at, they’ve done it kind of both ways, where they looked at pushing off without toe extension. And then they also looked at anesthetizing the muscles of the foot. Because if you think about it, right, if push off comes from the windlass mechanism, then anesthetizing or putting to sleep the muscles of the foot should not have an impact. And what they saw was decreased power at push off when they anesthetized those muscles. And so that goes to show that the muscles are actually creating the tension under the foot that creates that trampoline. You know, I kind of think of. If you think about the trampoline, I really like that analogy. I use it a lot when I’m teaching you think about there’s the black part, the mat, and then there’s the springs all around it, right? The black part is essentially actually the muscles, the muscles are contracting isometrically. So they’re not moving, they’re just contracting to create that tension. And then the tendons around them are the springs that help us move forward. So without a stiff mat, if you will, if that mat wasn’t able to maintain that tension, we have no trampoline, right? So that’s how all these structures, it’s not just the muscles, it’s not just the windless mechanism, it’s not just the joints, but everything working together in this harmony that really makes us efficient movers, which is really, really cool to understand.

Steven Sashen

Well, and I want to back up to a word that you used before. That for many people is the, is a thing that they attach to with an identity as strong as where they’re from, who their parents, parents are, what their lineage is, what religion they practice, and that’s pronation.

Jen Perez

Pronation.

Steven Sashen

So, um, how much do you know about how and why people started thinking that that was a bad word and what’s. What has evolved with the idea about pronation during this time that we’ve been talking about?

Jen Perez

Oh, man. Pronation. Um, so as far as far as history lesson, really, the only background that I have on where a lot of it came from was when flat feet were deemed as bad. And I’m sure that you have more to add into this, which I’d love to learn.

Steven Sashen

Oh, I do.

Jen Perez

When flat feet were deemed as bad and we started being excluded from military. Right. So then there was like this military exclusion for like flat feet was. You were disqualified. You weren’t able to participate. And that was like a huge, like black and white. This is bad. Right.

Steven Sashen

But you can have flat feet or what is being determined as a flat foot.

Jen Perez

True.

Steven Sashen

Not have a. And still not be pronating.

Jen Perez

Yes.

Steven Sashen

Either it was a proxy or it was, you know, something else.

Jen Perez

Yeah. And that’s. Let’s. Let’s break that down for a second and then you can jump in with the history. So. Because there is this really big misconception around, number one, what flat feet are, and number two, what pronation is and technically are that they are different things, but those terms get thrown out interchangeably. And so if you think about arch height. So like, when people say I have high arches or flat feet, we’re actually talking about the height of the medial longitudinal arch, which is that big arch on the inside of your foot. And here’s the thing. Some people have high arches and some people have low arches, and that’s okay. It’s kind of like walking around.

Steven Sashen

Hold on, hold on. That sounded like a. That sounded like a Sesame street move. That was. That was something Grover’s gonna say.

Jen Perez

I mean, but really, like, it’s okay.

Steven Sashen

No, no, you’re right.

Jen Perez

I mean, like, it’s the same as walking around being like, oh, well, I have this problem because I’m tall and I have this problem because I’m short. Like, it’s really. It’s more phenotypical than anything. It’s just your presentation. What matters is how much the arch moves and how strong those muscles of your feet are. So as long as you’re mobile and strong, regardless of your arch, quote unquote type, you can absolutely live a long movement filled life without foot pain. Now, talking outside of high arch, flat feet, into pronation. So with pronation, we talked about this a little bit before, is when the foot comes down and hits the ground we’re going to see that arch lower down. So we’re going to see opening of the joints along that medial arch. Now if we drift into excessive pronation, what you can see from behind is kind of this tilting where if you drew a line down the back of the calf and down the back of that heel bone, it kind of starts to create this bow or this c. And for again, for a long time this has been known as a bad thing where people are over pronated. And then I can’t tell you how many people come into my office and say they’re, they have flat feet and they’re over pronating and they’re literally like pes cavis high arch. When I put a pedograph under them, they don’t even, their whole foot doesn’t even touch their, the ground. It’s like this word has been thrown out all the time. And pronation is absolutely necessary as long as we can get in and get out. It’s a great motion to have.

Steven Sashen

So to echo that, the, the. When I was in the lab with a guy named Dr. Bill Sands, he was a former head of biomechanics for the US Olympic Committee and he had a lab out in western Colorado at what’s now Mesa State University or Colorado Mesa University, I think that’s what they call it now. And he said there’s pronation is not an issue. Hyper pronation, basically, if you can’t control it, that’s the issue. But it’s a natural kind of spring like thing that’s built in your foot and you watch world champion marathon runners and you know they’re the inside of their ankle bone can practically touch the ground. They’re pronating so much when they’re running, except that everything just springs back because it’s super strong. The I, I suspect that where this became a dirty word because when you have a shoe with an elevated heel, with a padded elevated heel, where you end up naturally landing on your heel with your foot somewhat outstretched more in front of your body, you have no control at that point. And so at that point, you know, since the heel is a ball, Calcaneus’s ball, it’s going to roll in some direction and for most people it’s going to roll inward and you’re going to pronate. And so shoe companies came up with a way of saying, oh, here’s a thing that we can call a problem and then sell a correction for it. And because you see that you go into shoe stores and this is what they do, they do Some little thing to see if you quote, pronate, and then they assign you a shoe. And it feels. I mean, look, we love it when people take us seriously. It’s like it’s my own personal little thing. I mean, I’m a special little snowflake. So anything that you can do to make people feel like a special little snowflake, they’re going to spend more money. And my favorite thing is there’s a guy who I would love to have on the podcast, uh, but it would be very challenging for a reason I’ll mention for the fun of it, is Simon Barthold. And the reason that I would love to have, I would love to have Simon Barthold is that he used to be Mr. Anti Pronation and now he’s Mr. Who Gives a Crap About Pronation. And when you ask him what changed, he says, the research. And if you ask why I’m nervous about having him on, it’s because he loves quoting research like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And if I don’t have that study in front of me and have 5, 10 minutes to look at it and figure out what might be a problem with the study or a confound or some other thing, I mean, he can out study me, if you will, all day long. And my fantasy would be that I would say, let’s think about. I mean, let’s just break these things down and look for what might be problematic in that study or what might be from what we know, just, you know, common sense. Not what the masses think, but common sense from a kinesthetic, biomechanical perspective.

Jen Perez

Yeah, well, we actually did an interview with Simon Bartoldt and had a go. I forgot. Yeah, I mean, this was years ago, so forgive me if I don’t remember all the details, but one of my big takeaways from it, which was really interesting was, you know, we come from very different backgrounds and we come from very different perspectives, and we knew that going into it, but we were very. It was a very respectful conversation, which I absolutely love when you can disagree with somebody, but you can, you know, both present your side of the argument. And where we fell in the middle was it was actually a quote that we had taken from Irene Davis because we also did an interview with her. And it’s basically, it came down to use as much shoe as needed, but as little as possible.

Steven Sashen

Yes. So, I mean, this is, well, Irene’s version of that is if you’re going to over stride, land with your foot way out in front of you and heel strike you want some protection for that because you’re going to get screwed if you don’t. Ideally, you don’t want to be doing that and therefore using less and less shoe. And at the same time, if you’re not ready to run over granite, you know, sharp granite, whatever, in your bare feet, which nobody is, then you want a shoe that’s going to accommodate that. Basically, there’s a use case for footwear. You don’t have to, you don’t need to be an absolutist. If you’re climbing, if you’re doing certain kinds of rock climbing, you need a certain kind of rock climbing shoe. And so, yeah, there’s. They’re functional necessities. If you’re missing one or both of your feet, you need something special for that situation.

Jen Perez

Yes. Yeah. I actually want to circle back to the, the pronation conversation for a second because I think you brought up a really good point of the shoes effect on pronation and you talked about the elevated heel component. But I want to add one more piece to that, and that is the shape of the toe box.

Steven Sashen

Yes.

Jen Perez

Right. Because if you think about the foot, and this is an oversimplification, but we like to talk about the foot tripod, right. Where this, the. If you think about the stable points of the foot being the center of the heel, the big toe and the ball of the big toe, and then the pinky toe and the ball of the pinky toe, basically, if that’s our tripod, if we sweep the big toe over towards the other toes, I’m basically.

Steven Sashen

Just literally pushing it in.

Jen Perez

Literally just pushing it in. Right. If I push that big toe towards the other toes, and now I just swept away one of the legs of that tripod, which way is my tripod going to fall? Right. So I’m literally taking away the stability pillar. So that first ray, which is your metatarsal and your big toe, I’m taking away the stability of that entire medial side of the foot where that arch is, because I sweep the big toe towards the other toes and immediately I’m going to open up those joints and see more pronation, which our body then can’t control because it’s going past the range of motion that it’s supposed to have and the stability mechanism that it’s supposed to have, isn’t there?

Steven Sashen

Well, and what’s interesting is there’s some shoes that will say that they’re wide because they’re wider at the ball of the foot and then they just get pointy, pointy, pointy, and they’re still just basically taking that big toe and moving it in so much that it has no function.

Jen Perez

Yeah, well. And you and I both know that saying wide and wide toe box are two different things.

Steven Sashen

Very different things.

Jen Perez

Right. So just for those watching the size wide. So number one, they can say their shoe has a wide toe box and really only widen it at the ball of the foot, like you were just saying. Or if you take a regular shoe and then you buy it in a size wide. Because I hear this from my patients all the time. Like, I know I need wide, so I bought this as in a size wide. And then I feel bad because I’m like, okay, can we still return them? So when we talk about a size wide shoe, we’re actually creating more width at the midfoot and sometimes creating more volume in the upper so that we have. If we have a more high volume foot, we have more space. That does nothing to change the triangular shape of the toe box, which is what would be a true wide toe box or natural shape of a foot. Right. We actually need that shoe to widen and have a straighter shape or wider shape at that shape toe box. And that’s what would allow that big toe to stay in alignment, which would keep the stability of that medial column, which would help fight some of that pronation created by shoes.

Steven Sashen

So to highlight something about what you just said, this is one of my little pet peeves. So as more people have gotten interested in this and as there’s been more research, one of my favorite, least favorite things is when I see someone showing a picture of, like, you know, a baby’s foot and how it’s basically just triangle. It’s like a trapezoid. It just goes wider, wider, wider, until there’s toes and they go, that’s, you know, a baby’s foot. That’s what our foot should be like. It’s like, that’s like saying a baby’s proportion of head to body is the way we should be when we get older than half of our body.

Jen Perez

They can’t touch their hands above their head.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s like, no, no, no. And then they show, you know, a certain, like some sort of aboriginal tribe where they have, you know, really, really wide feedback feet, similar shape. And I go, but you forget that they. I don’t want to use the word inbreeding in a negative way, but. But there’s a huge genetic component to what they have. And so there’s this sort of like fantasy, naturalistic fallacy idea of what a foot should look like. Which is, you know, starts at the heel and get narrow and just goes wider, wider, wider, kind of into infinity.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

You know, like people. Even as you said, like sort of on the. The big toe side kind of straighter, flatter. People forget that, you know, the very end of your toe, it does curve in. Your toes are not, you know, are not just linear. And so there’s a way of. And I say that clearly somewhat defensively, because when you look at a zero shoe, it does curve in a little bit where your big toe naturally curves in without moving your big toe in. So that there’s a whole, you know, foot shaped. And now granted that even that foot shape exists on the same kind of spectrum from flat feet to high arch.

Jen Perez

That.

Steven Sashen

And there are people who have, like, really, really wide things from the ball of the foot forward. And, you know, and. And there are people who are the exact opposite. We have one of our basketball players who wears our basketball shoe, the X1 who has really narrow feet with great natural toes play. He’s just like, his whole body is super long and narrow.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And so he’s like a double A, but still has a. Has a great foot. And so people like to hyper. Simplify things.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

And use ideas. My. Actually, my favorite one, this. This is a different one where people argue against the barefoot idea. They go, well, we didn’t evolve to run on, you know, flat, hard surfaces. I go, you should go and take a look at where we evolved to run and walk. These are harder surfaces than what you’re used to and with more crap on them than you would ever want to step on. So. And we also didn’t evolve to do a standing double backflip, but I could do one. So, you know, there’s just confusion.

Jen Perez

You really. Because I’m going to need a video of that.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, I used to. Actually. No, here’s what happened. I’ll give you the short version of the story. I was about to try one, literally about to throw it, because I had a really, really crazy good standing backflip. And at the last second, as I’m literally like gearing up to throw it, my coach, who’s at the other side of the gym facing away from me, stops in the middle of what he’s doing and just turns and points at me, goes, no. And it just shocked me. And I didn’t do it. I said, what the hell just happened? He goes, the last time I was in a gym where it got that weirdly quiet was when I was about to try a standing double backflip 10 years ago. And I knew you were about to do it, and so I did the closest thing. I basically did it into a foam pit where I made it so I could. It looked like I could have done it on the ground because I was competing and I didn’t want to break anything by doing anything stupid. I knew I’d make it past my head. I knew I’d be fine.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

I didn’t want to land in a way where I’d bust up my ankles, so I didn’t do it. But I could. But. But again, you know, we didn’t learn to fight fighter jets. I definitely can’t fly fighter jets.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

But we can do that, too. So, anyway, there’s this whole, like, natural naturalistic fallacy and inverse naturalistic fallacy that’s. That’s a little bizarre. Anyway, all right, back to wherever we were. I don’t know where we dropped off.

Jen Perez

Well, I think in general, that’s a really good point because people like to think of things in black and white, and unfortunately, that’s just not how it works. Right. There’s always shades of gray and there’s always, like. We like to talk about, like, a shoe spectrum. Just like we talk about, you know, there’s different shapes to the foot. Like you said, there’s some people that have a narrow forefoot and there’s some people that have a wider forefoot, but as long as their toes are in alignment with their metatarsals, we’re happy. Right. It’s when the metatarsals are pointing straight forward and their toes are pointing at each other that now we have problems. Right. Because not only from a joint. I mean, that’s a very easy conversation to have. Right. The joint alignment does not look right. If I was to hang my door crooked and open it 10,000 times a day, something would go wrong. That’s very simple. You know, outside of all the other physics that I can jump into, as far as the tie bar mechanism and the stretch reflex that happens when the forefoot splays. There’s so many beautiful things that happen when we let our foot spread the way that it’s supposed to, but simple enough, just let the joints be in alignment, right?

Steven Sashen

Yeah. Was there anything else from your conversation with Simon Barthold that struck you as particularly interesting, either in a positive or negative way? I mean, negative into that you guys were, you know, pointing in other directions?

Jen Perez

No, I don’t. I don’t really don’t think there was a lot of negative that came from it one of the topics, actually, it makes me want to go back and listen to that conversation because he talked a lot about muscle tuning and kind of the vibrations that happen within the different tissues and the frequencies that they vibrate at. But honestly, it’s been so long since that conversation, I can’t even remember what the takeaway was. But it definitely makes me want to go back and listen to it.

Steven Sashen

That would be interesting. Bill Sands, that was one of his big things is out of all the different interventions that people had tried that he found in, in his research that made no difference. He thought that that was a biggie. So he was really into compression calf sleeves. And I don’t think he did anything below the ankle, but he saw that, that basically a certain kind of uncontrolled vibration could cause problems because basically it’s making it so the muscles aren’t able to fire properly or in the right sequence or something. And so they’d be fighting against each other and couldn’t lead to issues.

Jen Perez

Yeah, it’d be interesting to see like, tying that research into like dry needling research. Right. When you’re doing dry needling and like use E stim because you get that muscle reset.

Steven Sashen

That would, that would be really interesting. I mean, I. So I have a messed up spine. My L5S1 is all jacked. And so my science, technical term. Yeah, I didn’t want to get too technical, but look it up. So for people who care, I have a grade 2L5S1 spondylolisthesis with a pars defect.

Jen Perez

Okay.

Steven Sashen

And if you, and if you looked at an MRI of my spine, you don’t need to be a radiologist to go, jesus, that’s bad. And if you do look for my sciatic in the mri, you do have to be a radiologist. You’ll still go, oh, that’s bad. So when I was getting a lot of injuries, when I first started running barefoot, which. Or when I first started back In a sprinting 18 years ago, I could literally almost feel that the signals were not getting to the muscles at the right time and they were fighting with each other and that would lead to strains. And I’ve had that happen like, you know, once or twice in the last however many years. But that’s a really interesting idea. And the muscle tuning thing is intriguing because again, there’s mythology around that about what you’re supposed to do to get things ready to fire properly and etc. Etc. So that, that is an interesting, an interesting something. Oh, but to try needling. Sorry. For to jump in on that one. I’m actually getting some of that now. Yeah. Because I’ve had. So my right knee, thanks to gymnastics, is actually messed up as well. It’s bone on bone. On the lateral side. They carved out 30% of my meniscus and that finally caught up with me. And so there are, there are muscles and tendons, muscles really in my lower leg that are firing like non stop to try to keep things stable. And it’s made other things get out of whack. And it’s been interesting as we reset those kind of getting underneath and finding out, no, here’s the real problem that’s actually going on. It’s been both satisfying and annoying at the same time.

Jen Perez

But, well, it’s amazing how our bodies protect it. Like how our body will protect itself, you know, like, like you said, if those muscles are guarding, when you take that away, you’re very much going to feel, oh, what were they guarding for?

Steven Sashen

You know, the muscle tune is good one. We’ll have to do something about that.

Jen Perez

Yeah, the, the other conversation that, that reminds me of was the Irene Davis one where we were talking about how the muscles prepare for landing. Right. And that I find really fascinating going back to the shoe conversation because basically if you think about, I’m a very visual talker. So I’m trying guys, for the, the audio learners. So if you think about having a baseline when you hit, hit a surface. We talked about this earlier with that ground reaction force. Right. When you hit a surface, we want to kind of meet in the middle. So if you’re landing on a surface that’s soft, think about like sand, like soft sand stepping in the mud. Something that’s going to squish underneath you, right?

Steven Sashen

Oh, no, let’s get fun. Memory foam inside your shoe.

Jen Perez

Well, yeah, exactly. That’s where this is going. Right? Okay, so, but let’s, let’s start barefoot. So if we’re going barefoot, but this is like our natural ability of our body to temper our environment. So if we’re going to stop on a really or step on a really soft surface, our body, our muscles will create more tension in order to create stiffness in that soft surface. This is also why so many of my patients come in and say their pain started when they had a beach vacation because their muscles had to have more tension than they were used to. Side note. But on the flip side of that, right, let’s think about a really hard surface. So if I was going to walk barefoot on concrete, if I was going to come down, my tissues need to be a little bit softer, a little bit more pliable so they can adapt to that hard surface. So this is kind of our body’s ability to temper our environment, but when we interfere with that. Right. This is where the shoes come in. So if I’m walking on concrete, naturally, my muscles should be a little bit softer, more supple in order to adapt to that. But if instead I put a whole bunch of cushion underneath my foot, now I’m going to come down hard on a hard surface underneath me because I have no repercussions of that. Right. So we’re actually changing the way that our body adapts to our environment by interfering with what we’re feeling underneath our feet.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, the way I say it is, you’re, you know, you got these 200,000 nerve endings in the sole of each foot, so your brain knows what you’re stepping on or in or actually, more importantly, your. The reflex arc you have in the base of your spine, it’s going to go up and right back down. And when your brain or your body can’t feel it, it’s going to land harder to get some feedback. And by then it’s too late. And now, especially if you’re landing with your foot out in front of you, you’re going to be sending a spike of force into your joints. And whichever one is weakest, ankle, hip, knee, back. Not in that order then. Hopefully not, then that’s going to be the one that’s going to bear the brunt of it. And that was Christine Pollard’s research where she was. She literally thought that cushioning was going to be good and reduce impact forces and was stunned to see that it either didn’t reduce them or made them higher.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

And again, it’s one of those things that common sense. Yeah, common sense says cushioning must feel good. It feels good, so it must be good. But when you think about it from a biomechanical perspective or a neurological perspective, it’s like, no, no, no, no, no. Get gets in the way. I mean, the example that I love to give is the big fat circus guy in a slow motion video takes a cannonball to the stomach. You ever see this?

Jen Perez

No.

Steven Sashen

It’s a slow mo film from God knows how long ago. And he bends around the cannonball as it hits him and you see ripples of fat moving around because he’s a big fat guy. So that’s the pressure getting spread out, but the force of the cannonball still sends him flying back into the tarp. That catches him and same thing, you know, with the foam or whatever. You don’t feel it as much, but the force has still got to go somewhere.

Jen Perez

Yeah, yeah, that’s true.

Steven Sashen

So anything else in the new news about how feet work and how. And how people and. Or footwear companies are dealing with that, or not dealing with that, as the case may be?

Jen Perez

I don’t. I think we’ve covered most of the new research on how the foot works. I would say the one other area of research that’s getting a lot of attention right now when it comes to the foot is fall risk. So fall risk.

Steven Sashen

Fall risk. Oh, yeah.

Jen Perez

So actually they’re finding there with a lot of research and this isn’t super new. There’s, there’s probably over the last 10 years, there’s a bunch of research articles pointing towards this, but they’re starting to stack up where you can’t ignore it anymore. And what they’ve found is that weakness in your feet is one of the top indicators of fall risk in the elderly. And we know that falls in the elderly is one of the highest risks for mortality because it can lead to things like hospitalization and hip fractures and things like that. So one of the studies in particular actually looked at foot strength compared to bigger muscle groups like your quadriceps. And foot strength was a much bigger indicator if people had weak feet. I believe, I believe the statistic was, was 20% higher risk of falls compared to strong feet. And there was zero difference across the quad strength, like weakness versus strength. So that was one study. Another study looked at foot strength as basically individual indicator. So outside of anything else, because we know when you have comorbidities, when you have other things going on, everything stacks up to increase your fall rate risk. But they wanted to look at risk factors in isolation of other risk factors. And the only two that came out of the study with being identifiable by themselves was blood pressure and toe strength. And it was like those two things alone can identify your fall risk outside of anything else.

Steven Sashen

And, and again, let’s back up. You’ve been wearing issue with a bunch of toe spring. You’ve been squeezing your toes together. You haven’t been using your feet. They get weaker over time. This was Katrina Protopapas. It’s like put arch support in healthy people’s shoes and in 12 weeks they’ve lost 70% of the strength in their feet. So Aaron Futrell did some research on this sponsored by the CDC and showed again, similar things. And there’s actually a related one. This is One I found really interesting. One of the nurses at Duke University identified this. Oh gosh, this is maybe 13 years ago. Ish walking speed, high correlation to being dead within 5 years. And of course when we watch elderly people when they’re having issues walking people, they tend to get prescribed bigger, thicker, stiffer, less feeling, less mobility. I mean it’s just a vicious cycle downward. They’re walking slower to get, you know, so they don’t over plant their foot too far in front of their self and not be able to balanced properly. So it’s just, you know, it’s just like running downhill except that they can’t run, but they are going downhill. It, I mean again, it’s. It just blows my mind.

Jen Perez

Yeah. Well, you can see also alterations in gait up to seven years prior to a dementia diagnosis. So alterations in gait can be one of the first signs of mental decline leading to dementia.

Steven Sashen

What specifically do you see?

Jen Perez

I believe that also came down to speed. Speed and cadence because they are two different things. And potentially I’m going to stick with speed and cadence. Cause I feel like there was another one and I don’t remember what it was.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it could. That’s interesting. It could be. I mean, I think about my mom went through having Alzheimer’s and I don’t recall she also fell down and broke her hip, but she was so like Alzheimer that she had no memory of it. And it’s like, how’s your hip? What do you mean? It’s fine. Like you’re in a wheelchair, you can’t walk the. So I’m. I’m trying to remember what her mobility was like earlier. And I just wonder how much of that gait change relate. I mean, I don’t know how this is really. I’m hoping other people could think about this. The fact that you start losing certain abilities, cognitive abilities, what does that do to how you’re interfere interfacing with the world and walking more slowly because of that difficult interface. That’s a really interesting. I’m gonna have to find that research. That’s a really interesting.

Jen Perez

I can send you the article. I know, I know right where I have it. I just.

Steven Sashen

Oh, send it and we’ll put it in the show notes. I mean that’s a really interesting path to go down. And I wonder, I mean if you identify. Can identify that early enough. If you can. If there can be some intervention. Way back when, when I first started doing this, yeah. There was a guy at the University of Pittsburgh. I can’t remember his name right now. Who did research that I’m not crazy about because it was based on using FMRI in a way that the woman who first put someone’s head in an fm, if in an fmri, Joy Hirsch said, you can’t really use FMRI for this. But the gist was, took elderly people, it was a longitudinal study, like nine year study, and looked at the amount of gray matter they had in their brain over time. And the ones who retained the most, were the most active, did the most walking. And I said to him, after I read the research, imagine what would have been like. I said, why do you think it made a difference? And he said, all the sensory information they’re getting from just being out and walking. I said, imagine if they were getting more sensory info from their feet as well. And he said, oh, that would, that would be, that would make a big difference. So. But of course we don’t have the money for a nine year study to. Yeah, but it showed.

Jen Perez

Yeah, I mean the walking research is, that alone is incredible because they, they’ve shown different studies with step counts where you can reduce, you know, depression, you can, you reduce your risk of dementia by step count. And it’s just, I mean, yeah, again, the research is endless. So it all comes down to move more. Right. The movement. Movement. It’s, the more you move, the more you maintain. And that’s what we want to do, is maintain a healthy life for as long as we can. At least that’s what I want to do.

Steven Sashen

My favorite part about my wife and I got our first ever for each of us dog three years ago, something like that. And my favorite thing is walking the dog because my favorite thing is going clouds. I just, you know, the clouds around Colorado as you know, are, when they’re, when they are in the sky, they’re utterly delightful.

Jen Perez

Yeah. You and my son would get along. He’s constantly in the car going, clouds. Sorry, my son’s three for those.

Steven Sashen

I was going to say, please don’t tell me he’s 16.

Jen Perez

Clouds. Clouds. And I’m like, yeah, buddy, I see the clouds. So.

Steven Sashen

So this will get a little personal. Ish. I mean, I’ve talked about it before, but two and a half years ago there was about a 16 week period where we didn’t know if I was going to live or die because I had a rare cancer in my eyeball. And during that time, at one point I’m walking the dog and it’s particularly beautifully cloudy day and I literally had this thought in my head. I said, oh man, I’m going to miss those if I’m gone. We don’t have them on my planet. And I took a great picture of one the other day when I was walking the dog. It looked like a giant fish in the sky, like a mile long fish with fins and everything else to send you the picture. It was great.

Jen Perez

That’s awesome. I love it.

Steven Sashen

All right. Anything we’ve missed and things that, that’s kind of new things for people to think about when it comes to feet and function and movement.

Jen Perez

I mean, I think just to kind of summarize some of the stuff that we’ve talked about right. Is number one, the feet are a mobile system so we need to allow them to move. If we try to interfere with that, we’re going to interfere with how our feet sense our environment. We’re going to interfere with that stretch, recoil and we’re also going to see that atrophy of our muscles, the decrease in our strength over time, which we’ve talked about. All the reasons why that’s important, from just simple propulsion to fall risk in the elderly, you know, and we didn’t even get into athletic performance. But there’s also research on flexor digitorum brevis, increasing jump height, vertical jumps, sprint speed, change in direction. Right. So all of these different components come back to let your feet function, let them be strong, don’t interfere with their function. And then going back to that, letting the toes spread from a stability, alignment and engagement perspective.

Steven Sashen

I still think that there’s. I don’t know if there’s research about it, but I still think there’s some, some way to go on getting rid of some of the mythology, especially mythology as it applies to what people then end up selling other people based on stories that aren’t true. So, you know, like the whole thing of toe spring. Okay, that’s fine, they’re not working. But I think the con, I think there’s some confusion there that when you’re running, this has been going on since, my God, since I remember being six years old and hearing this of like, you know, pushing with your toes, toe off, that you’re doing some active thing with your toes. But the reality is by the time your toes could be doing that, you’re so far past mid stance they’re not adding anything concentrically. But there’s a very significant isometric component or possibly eccentric component that I don’t think has really been looked at, especially when it comes to athletes, especially because of the shoes that they’re wearing where they’re, you know, in a compromised position to begin with. So that. That’s one. And when it comes to, like, products, I. I see people selling things based on, like, look how springy this thing is. Like, yeah, great. But it. That spring doesn’t work anywhere in the natural gate cycle. It’s a cool magic trick, but it’s not doing anything. Or, again, the feeling of propelling you forward from, you know, from that Nike ad. I think there’s. There’s still, like. There’s. There’s things that. Trying to think how to describe this that I’m just dying to dive into that are weird, goofy, subtle things and to be completely something about it. I have no illusion that if the research comes out showing all these really cool things, that it will make it down and make footwear companies change what they’re doing or that the majority of people will ever hear about it or whatever else. But I think it’s important for those of us who are carving a new path to have it in our back pocket. And happily more and more of that’s happening. But, you know, we’ll see.

Jen Perez

You know, I mean, we can only do what we can do, right? We can keep shouting from the rooftops and hope that more people listen. You know, that’s why we have conversations like this. That’s why, you know, Courtney’s been on a couple of major podcasts in the last couple years, which has been awesome, because it’s helping get the word out there. Like, people are. I think people are thinking about their feet more than. From a functional perspective, more than they have ever, ever before.

Steven Sashen

Absolutely.

Jen Perez

So I think. I mean, even going to the gym, right? I’m still seeing people wearing clouds at the gym. Like, I’m not talking about on clouds. I’m talking about, like, clouds. Like, they are wearing pillows on their feet at the gym, but I see them take their shoes off, and I never saw that before. Right? This is, like, in the last two, three years, I’m at, you know, Big Box Gym, and I see at least 20 people that have their shoes off. And I’m like, that’s a win for me. You know, I still go to the airport, and. And that’s. That’s always my temperature check is like, you know, when I’m feeling good about getting the message out there, and then I go to the airport. I’m like, oh, God. Ah, we have so far to go. We have so far to go.

Steven Sashen

There was once a guy in front of me at the airport with, you know, big, thick foam shoes and the. And they had caved in on the inside. So his. The shoes that you put them next to each other, the midsole. The foam part looked like a V. Okay. And so I took a video of this, and this tells the difference about different social media platforms. I posted the video on Facebook just from the knees down, just showing how this guy walked with, you know, his feet, like, way, way inverted that way. And on Facebook, everyone’s going, oh, my God, shoes are horrible. That’s killing him. That’s horrible. And on Instagram, stop. Stop body shaming that guy.

Jen Perez

Yeah. Stop filming other. Stop filming strangers. That’s why I’ve never done it.

Steven Sashen

But I’m all, yeah, body shaming. I’m shoe shaming. What’s the problem with that? Yeah.

Jen Perez

But meanwhile, then when I do see somebody at the airport, there was a guy the other day who was walking past me. He was, like, very much like, on a mission, but I couldn’t help it. And he was wearing some brand that I recognized. And I was like, hey, nice shoes. As I was, like, walking by, and he looks back at me, he had this, like, angry face on. He’s like, what’d you say? And I was just like, nice shoes. And then I walked away. And he was like, oh, I love these shoes. I was like, you know, so I’m like, oh, this is great. You know, So I try to call it when I say it, because that’s what I’ll. Keep them going.

Steven Sashen

I do as well. And it’s very funny when. When it’s people who recognize me versus people who don’t. So I was in my sister’s gym where there’s a handful of people wearing zero shoes. A friend of mine says when I go to the gym, he goes to North Carolina. He goes. The preponderance is zero. It’s like over 50% are wearing zero shoes. But I met my sister’s gym, and there’s a guy wearing our shoes. And she comes up to him and says, hey, what do you think of those? And he spent 10 minutes raving. And she points to me and says, don’t you know who this is? And he didn’t because he bought his shoes on Amazon and never, like, other.

Jen Perez

Than a little picture connect with the brand.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it didn’t really have that. That thing, so. But. But it is. I judge it based on how many times I get recognized on cost in Costco.

Jen Perez

Okay.

Steven Sashen

And on average, it’s three. So when. You know. But it started out a couple years ago, it was one, and before that it was zero. Right now it’s three. And. And. And that’s with me trying to get out of there as fast as I can because that place is a nightmare. I mean, I love it.

Jen Perez

I love Costco.

Steven Sashen

Oh, my God.

Jen Perez

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

This putting your cart sideways in the middle of the aisle and just staring with your mouth open at something. It’s a good thing.

Jen Perez

Contemplation.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Jen Perez

My favorite story of recognition is I was at an event actually at Stride Lab, which is a minimalist shoe store in Boulder for those listening and. I know, I know you know that.

Steven Sashen

No, you know I know you know I know.

Jen Perez

But I was at an event at Stride Lab. So it’s like, you know, you’re with your people. It was actually a Katie Bowman came into town. It was after her book signing. And so you’re like, with the, like the foot people, right? And I’m there to support. And I’ve got my. My Gate Happens jacket on. It says like Gate Happens down the sleeve. And this guy was very, very nice, but he comes up and he’s like, gate Happens. I love her. Are you a patient of her?

Steven Sashen

In a related note, when. When your partner, Courtney, business partner Courtney, was on Peter Tia’s podcast, it was. I enjoyed getting double name checked when. When she said, you know, referred to, you know, these zero shoes from Steven Sashen and Peter’s go. Yes, Steve is a good friend of mine. Yeah, two in a row. We succeeded. All right, well, this has been an absolute pleasure, as I knew it would be. Jan, if people want to get in to with you, find out more about what we’ve been talking about or if they have some issue where they need some help, because I know that you don’t have to see people necessarily in your office tell people what they can.

Jen Perez

Do to do more, to find us to learn more. All the things. I mean, like I said, education is our passion. So we have lots of free resources. If you go to Gate Happens Instagram page or our YouTube channel.

Steven Sashen

To be clear. I know this sounds silly.

Jen Perez

G A I T. Uhhuh. Yep, you got it. So yeah, not Gate like open and shut, but gate like how you walk. So yeah, so Gate Happens is. It is our company name, but you can check us out on Instagram or YouTube for lots of free resources. But we also have online courses for everything from bunions to just making your feet stronger. We do have virtual consultations, so we have a team of clinicians that do one on one appointments and create like curated individualized plans. If you do have something getting in the way of doing what you love. And then I do have a practice in person with my husband, kinetic chiropractic in Lafayette, Colorado. If you’re local or want to travel in, we’d love to have you. But yeah, I would say gatehappens.com or gatehappens socials for all the things is the best way to reach us.

Steven Sashen

Well, I hope people do take advantage of that because, you know, there are more and more people trying to be helpful in this way. And, you know, you two are really at the top of that. Whatever thing you want to use for a metaphor for being on the top of. I can’t think of one at the moment.

Jen Perez

Let’s. Let’s go with building rather than pyramid.

Steven Sashen

Okay. Yeah, there we go. Oh, I like build. Building’s okay. I don’t know.

Jen Perez

Because there’s other people.

Steven Sashen

Well, no, there are other. Well, there’s always other people, but that’s fair. I’m not saying there’s only one person at the top. I mean, the summit is not. Is not a peak. It’s got. There’s flat. A bunch of people can hang out up there.

Jen Perez

Yeah, that’s what I was going for.

Steven Sashen

Okay. Yeah, we’ll figure we’re at the rooftop bar.

Jen Perez

That’s where you’ll find us, is the rooftop bar.

Steven Sashen

Rooftop bar to the top of a mesa. How’s that?

Jen Perez

Perfect.

Steven Sashen

There we go. Anyway, everybody else, thank you so much for being part of this. Once again, go over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, by the way, you don’t need to join anything. There’s no secret handshake. There’s no money involved. We don’t do a special dance every morning, which would be really fun if we did, though. And that’s where you can find all the previous episodes, of which there are quite a few with wonderful people like Jen and with Find us on social media and other places to find the podcast if you don’t like the one where you already found it. And of course, if you have any requests, any suggestions, anyone that you want to be on, have on the show or anything that. Where you want to get in touch with me, you can drop me an email@movemoveringthemovementmovement.com and most importantly, between now and wherever else, go out, have fun, and live life feet first.

Movement Lessons From the Dead

marketdomination — Wed, 20 Aug 2025 00:00:56 +0000

Unlock the secrets to optimal health and movement with expert insights on natural practices and regenerative techniques.

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Dr. Grove Higgins, Owner and Chiropractor at Neuroathlete Clinic, who delves into the profound connection between natural movement and overall well-being. They explore the importance of learning from indigenous tribes’ functional health practices, the impact of sensory awareness on movement quality, and the revolutionary regenerative techniques transforming orthopedics. Through insightful discussions on biomechanics, brain-body connections, and the power of embracing ancestral wisdom, listeners are invited to rethink conventional approaches to physical health and movement for a more vibrant and sustainable life.

Key Takeaways:

→ Natural movement is crucial for efficient movement and overall well-being.

→ Tai Chi improves balance, sensory awareness, and response time.

→ Humans evolved to run on natural terrains, not artificial surfaces like roads.

→ Environmental factors significantly impact foot development and morphology.

→ Regenerative techniques like shockwave therapy offer non-invasive solutions for structural restoration and tissue regrowth in orthopedic care.

Dr. Grove Higgins has dedicated nearly 30 years to the health field, starting as a physical therapy assistant in the early ’90s and eventually earning a doctorate in Chiropractic medicine. With a private practice and corporate consulting experience, Dr. Higgins helps companies prevent loss from repetitive strain disorders. His mission has always been to help patients exceed their expectations of health.

In 2010, Dr. Higgins co-founded LifeQuest Transitions, a non-profit supporting wounded soldiers in their transition to civilian life, impacting over 2,500 veterans. After the non-profit dissolved in 2012, Dr. Higgins returned to private practice, later reuniting with Lt. Col. Patrick Marques to develop the NeuroAthlete program and clinic. This led to the opening of a new facility in Monument, CO, designed to provide tailored care for clients in person and online.

Dr. Higgins enjoys hiking, backpacking, and community involvement with his wife and three children, two of whom are pursuing military careers.

Connect With Dr. Grove Higgins:

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https://youtu.be/5K8CkBJQJiY

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

If you want to walk or run or do anything on your feet, better, maybe the most important thing you need to know, you’re going to learn from a dead body. More about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting feet first. You know, those things that are at the end of your legs. And we’re also breaking down the propaganda, the mythology and sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, play, hike, do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do and to do that enjoyably and effectively and efficiently. And did I say enjoy? It’s a trick question. You should know that by now. I always say that because if you’re not enjoying it, you’re not going to keep doing it. So you want to find something you enjoy or find a thing that you like and do it in an enjoyable way. And we’re going to talk about that. I am Steven Sashen, co founder and chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes and we call this the Movement Movement podcast. Because we, that means you and me, we are creating a movement about natural movement, having your body do what it’s made to do and not getting in the way by using things that people sell you because they tell you they’re going to be better, but actually don’t do that at all the way you are. Part of this is really simple. Just head over to our website, www.jointhemovementmovement.com where you’ll find previous episodes, the ways you can find us on social media, and most importantly, other ways you can, well find the podcast in other places than the one you found this on this time. But actually the most important thing is just this. Leave a review, give us a thumbs up, give us a five star rating. All those things that you know, that spread the word, that is the movement part, the natural movement thing. In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. That’s all I’m saying. So why don’t we get started? Grove Higgins, why don’t you tell people who you are and what you’re doing here?

Grove Higgins

My name is Dr. Grove Higgins. I’m a chiropractor and rehabilitationist and near Colorado Springs Monument area, just north of there. I’ve been in working in physical medicine since 1988. When I was 14, had the ability to go and volunteer in a hospital and found the love of my life working with human beings and making Them move better, feel better, feel less pain, reach potential that they didn’t know that they had. Especially coming back from some of the catastrophic things that I, I first got a chance to work with. But then since that time, I’ve gotten a chance to do a lot of research and a lot of work in the field of, of medicine, developing biomechanical models and, and such like that. And, and where I’m at currently most interested in is in the area of tissue regeneration and helping doctors basically make patients better from the inside out structure. Not just, not just making the move better, but actually making better structure. But it all starts at the ground, like you say.

Steven Sashen

Well, we’re going to talk about the inside out thing in a couple different ways. One that is just personal, so it’s really just about me. But let’s start with my intro. So, because we were talking about this before and it was super, super fun. What do people need to know? What can they learn from a cadaver that might make them go, oh, wait, yeah, what?

Grove Higgins

So I had the wonderful opportunity as I was going through school to work in a biomechanics lab. And one of the many researchers that I worked with, and he’s primarily an anatomist, David, Dr. David Greiner, he was really interested in how the foot works. Right. So this whole idea of pronation, supination and, and, and all those types of things that, especially from a barefoot versus structured foot standpoint, you know, we are all debating about and such like that, and he wanted to define the terms better. So we, we were measuring the specific angles and movements of joints in the foot. And so we were.

Steven Sashen

Hold on, pause right there.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, yeah.

Steven Sashen

If anyone’s just listening to this podcast, I encourage you to watch the video because Grove is just holding up a great skeletal model. And it’s always fun to see bones that you don’t see because they’re on the inside of you.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, well, and because of that, you know, the, the middle of our arch is. There’s something amazing happening there, and he wanted to define that. So, you know, as you look down at your arch, if you have a high arch or even a flat arch, doesn’t really matter. That arch is moving and it’s doing something magical and he wanted to define it. So we took 50 lower legs. So from the knee down.

Steven Sashen

And so again, hold on, pause right there. Where do you order 50 lower legs? Do you go on Amazon and find that one?

Grove Higgins

Well, back then, Amazon wasn’t. Amazon was just selling books then. So, yeah, you couldn’t do that. But you can order up body parts. And so we had 50 of those. Now, granted, most of these individuals were older individuals that died of old age, nursing home, that type of thing. And so these are individuals who had a typical American foot, most of them with very flat arches. When they came in, we stripped them of all of the skin, all of the fat, all the muscle.

Steven Sashen

And.

Grove Higgins

But as we were going down, and I know this sounds kind of gross, but as we were going down and I had the joy of doing this, I would cut the tibialis posterior tendon, which goes down behind the ankle under the foot, and attaches under the arch. It makes this beautiful spider web under the arch, and it helps to compress the arch.

Steven Sashen

And.

Grove Higgins

And as soon as you cut that, if that arch was flat, you would watch it raise up. It was the most amazing thing to watch that happen at that time.

Steven Sashen

I want to break that down. So again, do me a favor. Describe where that tendon is going. And if it’s. If cutting it makes the arch raise, it’s doing something to flatten said arch.

Grove Higgins

Right.

Steven Sashen

There’s something else that. That otherwise is acting in opposition to that that would allow it to raise. So let’s walk through the anatomy on that a little slower.

Grove Higgins

Right.

Steven Sashen

Is very interesting.

Grove Higgins

Right, right, right. So with every joint that’s moving, there’s. There’s two sides, just like you already said. There’s. There’s muscles on one side, muscles on the other side to move that. To move that body part. So if you’re making a. If you’re doing a biceps curl, right. And you’re bending your elbow, the biceps doing the big lifting motion, but the tricep is also balancing that out. So that way your elbow joint does come, doesn’t just explode. Right. Well, that’s happening in the foot, except there’s. There’s 32 joints going at one time in the foot and the ankle. And. And so there’s a lot of things that are in balance, just like the bicep. Tricep idea. Right. So, yes, by the time, of course, these people get to our lab or the parts that get to our labor, those muscles are no longer active. They’re frozen in that moment of time that that person passed away. Right. So as. As we’re going through and cutting these different. Different muscles, not all of them made any difference. But that tibialis posterior tendon that goes down from the backside of your tibia, so the long, thick bone of the lower leg down underneath that ankle bone on the medial side, the inside of Your ankle goes down underneath and goes to the bottom side of your foot. And it, as it goes there, it spreads out and makes this, the spider web of tendons that attaches to multiple places on the bottom of the foot in order to compress that arch.

Steven Sashen

All right, so let’s pause there for a second. So what’s it doing in a healthy person that would, you know, that requires compressing that arch.

Grove Higgins

Yeah. So if it’s doing its job, think of it kind of like a. A suspension bridge. Right. A suspension bridge isn’t actually held up the way that it’s created. It’s actually creating tension in the middle of the bridge and pushing it to its origins so from one side of the canyon to the other side of the canyon. And that’s what creates stability of the structure and allows it to span it, but then allows things to go over the top of it without it collapsing.

Steven Sashen

Right, got it.

Grove Higgins

So your bottom of your foot is like that, but in somewhat reverse. And so it compresses the bottom of. And it takes those bones, and as it’s doing that, it’s compressing them this way and lifting that arch. Right. So a healthy, healthy tibialis posterior with everything else. It’s not just one muscle, of course, but in this case, if it’s doing its job, it’s compressing that arch and making that arch stand up. And this is one reason why, especially working with elite athletes, I see flat feet all the time, but that doesn’t matter. It matters if that arch is doing its job when it’s moving, not while it’s standing there. And an elite athlete has got this amazing nervous system that is queued up for performance. And so when it’s standing there doing nothing, what does it do? It gets lazy. And so most great runners have flat feet, and who cares, right? Because when they’re running, their arches are beautiful. They’re doing these amazing. You know, their feet. Their feet look like hands when they’re doing it. Right, right. So, anyway, so we get to this. We got all these legs cutting these, and I’m watching these arches pop up as soon as you cut that tibialis posterior tendon. And it got me thinking. Of course, it took years for me to. To figure out what I observed, but that. That arch was trained to be in that position.

Steven Sashen

Right.

Grove Higgins

To the detriment of the person that owned it, most likely.

Steven Sashen

And so how would it be trained?

Grove Higgins

Well, this is where research I did a couple of years before that, as a lowly tech in the lab, one of my jobs was to read 500 papers on pediatric foot development for one of the researchers in the lab. And in that, I kept running across several papers that referenced these studies, particularly out of Asia, discussing vestibular function and foot development in children. So I’m going to set this up. You’re born and what’s your foot? Your foot is fat and flat, right?

Steven Sashen

Yep.

Grove Higgins

What that allows the child to do as they’re starting to find their feet is to put more surface area on the ground and be able to sense gravity through a flat foot that has maximum surface on the ground. So as they are developing this now vertical sense of balance and such, now the, the, the vestibular system, as it develops, allows the body to now start to pick up the arch, which now gives the child a mechanical advantage to launch himself and to move fast. He doesn’t need all of that stability from a flat foot anymore. He wants to be able to be unstable so he can move quickly away from danger, towards food, whatever. Right. Play the games, all that type of stuff. So as we, as, as these children got older, right? Yes, their foot would fall, but when would it fall? When their vestibular system would start to spin down as they got older, their foot would start to flatten out in order to find the ground again to give the failing vestibular system, as the person got older, to sense gravity and have better balance.

Steven Sashen

Well, let’s pause there. So that’s very, very cool. I love, so I love the whole idea of the connection between your foot and your brain. And especially it’s something that I talk about all the time. I go, you know, you have 20,000 or more nerve endings in the bottom of your foot. And I ask people, why, like what? I go, why would you need that? They go, oh, I guess. So you can feel things? Yeah. Why would you need to feel things? Oh, I guess. So you know how to move? Yeah. What’s telling you how to move? Oh, I guess my brain is. Yeah. Okay, so there’s that. So your, your point about the vestibular system starting to, you know, down regulate, if you will. What’s causing that to happen?

Grove Higgins

Well, as, as we get older, those, the hair cells on the inside of the vestibular system that sense the swatching of the, of the, the fluid inside your ear, the gyroscope in your ear, essentially, as they, as you get older, and especially if you’re getting less metabolically healthy and such, those hair cells begin to fail and they get brittle. And so then as that becomes less and less competent, your foot finds the Ground in order to make you more competent again to connect those nerve endings to the ground. And so that way, gravity and you have a better relationship because you don’t need. As you get older, you have friends and family that are going to get your food and defend you from danger. Right. So survival is less necessary. You just need to be able to get out of the chair, go with the family and stuff like that. Right. So, yeah, here’s, here’s something that should interest you, because I know you have a tai chi background, right?

Steven Sashen

Yes, correct.

Grove Higgins

So what do the older folks do? They do things like Tai chi. And then in. In Asia, it is not uncommon to go to parks and to find cobblestone mandalas in the parks. And why? Because it’s a play toy for the older adult to come in, take off their shoes, and they walk the mandala. Why? Because it keeps their feet moving and sensitive and such like that. So the rate of fall in Asian countries is much less. And so then broken hips, mortality and such like that is much less in Asian countries than it is in the United States. What’s the difference? In the United States, we put them in orthotics and we put them in stiffer shoes to support their arch, which wants to find the ground, and instead we ruin them. And, and, and, and the result of this, and this might be. This sounds terrible, might be medical malpractice, is that we’re setting them up for injury, failure, death.

Steven Sashen

You know, this is something that I, I have said. There’s a lot of things I’ve said is I, I kind of wish that shoes killed people, because if they did, then we’d have like a, you know, Philip Morris case on our hands where we would see that the shoe companies know that putting big, thick, stiff shoes on people’s feet, elderly in particular, but anybody really is making it harder and harder for you to function properly. And, um, and, you know, can result in what happened to my dad, Trip, fall, die, and. But, you know, instead, they just take a bunch of money out of your wallet and make your life more difficult. And people call it normal. Like watching elderly people shuffle along. And I said, you know, they’re shuffling because they’re not. Their brains are not stupid. They, since they can barely feel and they can barely move their feet, they. Their brain is saying shuffle. So that you’re basically staying essentially balanced the whole time, 100%. You’re never getting off balance to walk normally or to run, and it’s completely upside down. And you may know this, there’s research that Came out of Duke University showing a correlation, a high correlation between walking speed and mortality. At a certain point, the slower you walk. I wish I knew the threshold. But if you’re walking below this particular speed, your chance of dying over the next five years is extremely high. And by that point, you’re walking at that speed because your feet and brain have not been functioning correctly. And your chance of dying is most likely from trip, fall, Die.

Grove Higgins

Yeah. Yeah. And survival is what it’s all about. The brain’s only interested in getting you away from tigers and to the refrigerator. And it wants to do that the best that it can, but it doesn’t care about performance. So if the information coming into the system is poor because we’re either blocking it or we’ve broken it. Yeah. Movement becomes a less and less graceful event. And unfortunately, it sets us up for bad health issues down the way.

Steven Sashen

I mean, one of the things that amazes me is we will see, like, indigenous tribes where people are still living into their 70s and 80s and those people are still fully functional. I mean, totally fine, and no one ever. The way people seem to approach that is like, oh, well, that’s them we can’t do. I mean, we’re different. That’s them. I don’t know why people don’t think, especially in a culture like ours where everyone thinks anything is possible, by and large. If I can imagine that I can become. That I can be that. I can imagine being rich, then sure, I can become rich or whatever the thing is. But when. But when it comes to certain things around physical activity and physical health, people don’t do that. It’s like, oh, I can’t run anymore because my, you know, cause my knees hurt. Well, what about those guys who are, you know, heavier than you, who are able to run without a problem, you know, in these other places? I mean, why can’t you do that? Well, I can’t do that. It’s a different thing. Well, why can’t we learn what they’re doing and do the same thing? Maybe the. Maybe, you know, what’s happening for you is because you did something, you’re doing something different from those people. And if you learn what those people are doing, you can do it too. It’s a weird. I’m not. I’m not articulate. You know where I’m going with this?

Grove Higgins

Yeah, most. Most definitely. We bought into the thought virus that’s been given to us. Right. And. Yeah, and. And a lot of it’s because, you know, unfortunately, as Westerners, and especially in America, we’re so myopic. We look at what’s right in front of us and. And this is even in science, we’re not looking broadly, like in those Native American tribes before us, or into other parts of the country, other native populations, and watching and learning from them, and then saying, why don’t we move or behave like them? Instead, we’re trying to make them move like us.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, why don’t we give it a whirl? Why don’t we try to figure that out? You know, the tai chi thing is interesting. And people. It’s so funny in America when people see that, they don’t necessarily mock it, but they kind of mock it and missing that idea that the biggest thing they’re working on is feeling the ground and letting their brain respond to that in all these different positions. Now, granted, I think part of the challenge there is tai chi is promoted to younger people as a martial art of sorts of. It is a martial art for those people who actually know how to perceive it that way and do it that way. But mostly it’s like, oh, that’s just, you know, something old people do. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, when I was doing tai chi, one of my teacher or my teacher used to go to karate schools, like, big, you know, hard karate schools. And he’d say, okay, I’m going to try something. I want to tap you on the head. And you just stop me. I mean, you don’t even have to stop me. Just like, if you touch my hand or my arm on the way to tapping you on the head, you win. But if I can tap you on the head, I win. And he would just sit there. He said, I’m going to stand on one leg. I’m going to have my hands by my side. That’s where I’m going to start. You can have your hands right up by your face. I’m going to tap you on the head. Okay, ready? Go. And he would just, like, tap them on the head over and over and over, and they couldn’t stop him. And I said, so how do you describe what you’re doing is. He goes, it’s easy. It’s literally not possible for you to perceive. The time that it takes for me to move my hand from my side to your head takes less than a quarter of a second. And the information going from your eye to your brain and back down to your arm takes longer than that. So what people normally are responding to is some subtle other motion that I’m making before I Start moving my hand, that I’d be telegraphing. I just don’t telegraph anymore. And that came from the fighting style of Tai Chi.

Grove Higgins

Right, Right. And that’s an excellent. I mean, again, to tie in what you’ve already said about the feet and the brain connection. There’s a lot going on between those two points, too. Movement is complex. We’re taking in. We’re primarily sighted beings, so we take in a lot of information from our eyes that we’re not even aware of. Like our eyes, our brain sees that pebble in the road ahead of us. But if we’ve. If we’ve trained the system to ignore the pebble in the road because our feet are guarded from it 100 of the time, and we never feel it. We learn to ignore it. And then we go on to treadmills, which, you know, are totally artificial and they cover the. You know, there’s a cowling in front, and so we shorten our steps. And that doesn’t translate to good movement in the real world either, unfortunately. I can’t tell you how many great athletes that primarily train indoors because it’s convenient and easy and such like that, that they break themselves because their biomechanics have been trained by the environment, and unfortunately, an artificial environment, and it’s breaks down over time. We were. We were built to be in a natural environment, taking in all of the cues and sensory information from the ground up, from the outside in, and then address it properly and walk over uneven surfaces with sharp little pebbles and everything and be perfectly fine with it.

Steven Sashen

This is my. My favorite thing when people say to me, well, we didn’t evolve to, you know, run on roads for 26 miles. I went, no. What we evolved to run on are way more difficult.

Grove Higgins

True.

Steven Sashen

Way harder. And. And frankly, we didn’t. We also didn’t evolve to do double backflips, but if you want, I can go do one. So there’s lots of things that we. We evolved to do certain things that allows us to do other things. We didn’t evolve to fly fighter jets, for example. So, you know, you’ve got that whole evolution thing upside down. And. But my favorite is if I said, if you went to the place of where we evolved and ran even in regular shoes, you and your shoes would be trashed because those surfaces are rough, and people learned how to do that without a problem. You know, it Ronci. When I. There’s a handful of things that I wish I had done before I. Or when I just started this whole barefoot journey. If you Will, mostly I wish I had pictures of my footprint when I would get out of a pool or a hot tub or. I wish there was a way of measuring the speed of my reflex arc. I wish there was a way of measuring the flexibility of my foot and the strength of my foot. And I’m sure there’s probably others as well. But the reflex thing and the flexibility is the one that I think about the most. Because the house that we had had a bunch of bigger than gravel, small rocks that were just kind of along the side of the driveway and I couldn’t walk on them at all. But within, I don’t know, some number of months later, I could walk on them. And it was a little sensitive. And I noticed maybe a year in I’d walk on them without a problem. And it wasn’t because I was numb, it was because I was responsive. My foot was flexing around things and my gate had changed. So if I stepped on something that it was going to be definitely unpleasant. I hadn’t fully waited on that foot yet. And so I was able to step off of it without, you know, before it was too late. And I wish I had measurements of those things because.

Grove Higgins

Right. 100. So I did a little experiment last night because I was thinking about you. And so I went and I’ve got a six mile loop.

Steven Sashen

Wait, when you were thinking about me, what was I wearing?

Grove Higgins

You were barefoot perfectly. So.

Steven Sashen

Same as I am right now, actually.

Grove Higgins

Right. There you go. And so I want to do this little experiment thinking about today. And I do this rarely, I mean, like once a year, but I’ve got this beautiful six mile loop. And it’s all urban hiking, you know, it’s so. It’s sidewalks and blacktop and everything like that, but there’s nothing protecting it from having stuff blown on it and such. So I did it last night, purely barefoot, the whole, the whole, the whole thing. And as always, you know, I start out and my foot is afraid of everything that it steps on initially. Right. I feel everything. Right. And eventually though, with. By the mile three to four, somewhere in there, my foot said, I’m okay. Right. And now it became. It became comfortable. I. And I wasn’t. I was sensing, but wasn’t reacting to everything that I was stepping on and, and my speed, my pace just naturally increased. Right. So my performance improved as my foot remembered what to do.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, we just. Layne and I were just in Europe for a little while and. Well, both when we were in Germany and in Denmark, we were in places where there’s A lot of cobblestones. And next to the cobblestones was often some flat sidewalk, which they had done for wheeled things that just to make life a little easier for people. But we were both commenting, it’s like, you know, we enjoyed walking on the cobblestones the most. And when you kind of get used to just that, being able to use the cobblestones as part of your locomotion, your toes kind of grab the thing at the right place or moves in the right way, and you’re getting just that feedback that, you know, feels really good. But to your point, it takes a little while for your brain to go, oh, yeah, yeah, that’s good.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, yeah, It’s. It’s scary, but that’s okay if you want. There’s a saying, freedom is scary, right? And it’s in multiple levels. But getting out there and moving and doing new movement and new sensory information is a little scary. But you give yourself a chance to adapt, and it becomes freeing.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, there’s another. There’s kind of a myth in the barefoot world, or what people perceive as the barefoot world, that as you’re going barefoot, what’s actually happening is you’re. You’re building calluses, and your foot is getting more, you know, whatever the word is, and basically you’re not feeling as much because it’s. The skin is getting thicker and blah, blah, blah. What’s your take on that?

Grove Higgins

Yeah, no.

Steven Sashen

Could you be a little more. Succeed.

Grove Higgins

I’ll be a little more specific. So when I first got into practice into the chiropractic field, so this 2005, now, Colorado Springs, we get a lot of transplants from South Africa because they’re really good at program management and such like that. So we have a lot of transplants here. But one of the things that I. I noticed is that they weren’t coming to me for foot and lower leg problems. They were coming for other things. But I’d see their bare feet, and their bare feet do not look like American feet. They look. They’re wider, they’re thicker. The toes are not just splayed out, but the pad is wider and such like that. And so I asked one of them, I’m like, I just. I’ve noticed this trend, working with all you South Africans, that you’ve got these hand feet, these feet that look more articulated than the typical American foot. Why do you think that is? And the individual said, you know, that’s a really interesting question. It’s probably because when we go to school, you know, we go to School in patent leather uniforms and patent leather shoes. But then when we go out to play recess, we take off our shoes, we play soccer barefoot. Right. So their foot development is different, but they still maintained that thickness and that and that morphology that they did, that they had then. And then you look at other, like, videos, you can go on YouTube and find this all over the place. Find people who climb trees.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Grove Higgins

And their feet, again, have more articulation to it. They can grab the side of the tree and such like that. Their feet are very supple. They’re not leathery. They’re not, you know, and when you look at the bottom of their feet, they’re. They’re like a hands that have been working, but they’re not thick and protected.

Steven Sashen

I think that we’ve. I think that we’ve potentially mythologized that that foot shape and that morphology. I think that they’re partially right. This is my suspicion. I mean, I could be completely making this up, but. But my. I suspect that there’s a genetic component as well, or an evolutionary component. Let’s just leave it at genetic. That’ll be easier. That if you just go back, you know, a number of generations, you’re going to see similar things. So they’re. They’re coming. They’re coming out of the gate already with a different foot shape to begin with. And I don’t know how much of that changes over time based on what they’re doing with their feet. I mean, what you’re doing with your feet’s a whole other thing. My favorite thing is watching videos of people who either were born with or lost both of their arms, born without or lost both of their arms. And what they learned to do with their feet. Everyone goes, oh, my God, that’s amazing. It’s like, no, it’s what any of us could do if we were using our feet, if we had to do. I mean, it’s not that it’s special. It’s. We. We all. We also have a tendency to. To mythologize people who have suffered something that we can’t imagine that then are having a fine life, having adapted to not having whatever that thing is. And we go, oh, my God, that’s incredible. It’s like, no, no. If you ask them, they go, no, it’s what you would do too, this.

Grove Higgins

Right.

Steven Sashen

You know, you learn to do this. You learn to draw. You learn to, you know, draw.

Grove Higgins

The human. The human system is so adaptable to the environment, but it has to be used. If you.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Grove Higgins

If you don’t use it, you don’t develop it. And if you’ve developed it and you stop using it, you lose it. Right. And unfortunately, it comes to a point where it becomes more and more permanent and it’s less changeable. Not that it’s not worth trying to change.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. You know, it’s kind of like old people lifting weights. They. They’re going to get stronger, but they’re not going to turn into professional bodybuilders if they haven’t been doing that for a while.

Grove Higgins

Right.

Steven Sashen

Which I kind of feel like that now at 63, it’s like I’ve been lifting a lot. I’m definitely getting stronger. I’ve gotten a little bigger. But, you know, I. I have no illusions about where that’s going.

Grove Higgins

Right, right, right. Yep.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Grove Higgins

Just don’t stop moving. Man.

Steven Sashen

I gotta tell you, you know, the, the. I’ve been working out more consistently in the last year and a half than ever in my life, even when I was. Well, a little different thing when I was a competitive athlete, but it’s been really, really satisfying because. And this is not a pitch for my workout per se, but a pitch for finding the thing that fits your psychology and your life. So this is a very intense, very short workout. That’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done, which is why I like it. I like that it’s super intense and super hard and super short and. And produces effects. So, you know, that’s part of my. Do something you enjoy. And every time I do this workout, it is excruciating. And my wife says, still having a good time? Oh, the best. So what else do we want to talk about on the in? You know, I, I keep thinking about this one other study, actually, from Christine Pollard at osu where she believed, as everyone did, that the cushioning in shoes was good and more cushioning would have to be better. And so when she did her research, what she was studying was the force going into your knee when you’re running. And she was very stunned to find out that even a small amount of cushioning increased the forces that were going into your knee to be a loading forces. And added cushioning did not make it any better. And at a certain point, and sometimes sooner rather than later made it worse, similar to what we’ve been talking about, because the brain was saying, I can’t feel anything. So I’ve had to land harder to try to get some kind of feedback.

Grove Higgins

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

And if that. Well, if that didn’t work, you know.

Grove Higgins

Yeah. So I, I’m going To reveal a secret that I use in, in clinical practice, based off from that study, from way back when, part of that mechanism of how that arch flexes and moves is that it drives that tibia to rotate. So it isn’t just that the tibia goes forward and backwards, it’s actually doing this subtle little rotation medially. So into the middle, towards the, towards your knees. Right. As you bend the knee, it has to rotate in order to unlock the femur from the tibia. So we know this. But, but as you bend it, that the, between the talus and the navicular here, it takes that linear force coming in through the forefoot and turns it into rotational force. And then that rotational force gets transmitted up the tibia. Right. If that tibia does not rotate, where does all that force go? It goes up into a misaligned articulation between the tibia and the femur. And you’re destroying it with every single step.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, it’s interesting you say that. I’m going to talk. Well, first of all, again, if people didn’t watch that. So tibia, again, the thicker of the two bones in your lower leg, leg, and then the talus and the navicular. Just think of it as the first two bones that your tibia will bump into in your foot, ankle, foot, you know, structure. Easy way to think about that. It’s really interesting to me for the following reason. So 30 something years ago, I was still doing gymnastics. I was 32, 33 years old, something like that. And I landed and twisted at the same time and heard the following noise come out of my knee. And as I lay on the ground, I went, ah. That was the end of my gymnastics career. And so I had just mangled the meniscus in my knee joint and they removed about 30% of it. Hasn’t been a problem until the last, I don’t know, four or five months. I don’t do time very well. Let’s call it four or five months. And so, because after I got an X ray to find out, basically I’m bone on bone, just on that lateral side, just on the outside of my knee. Now, the interesting, the reason that I’m bringing this up is from what you just said. So because of that structural problem in my knee, what’s happening is that rotational thing in the tibia that you’re describing is not happening well. And so I’m getting. There’s some tightness on all of the muscles and tendons on the lateral side of my lower leg, which are interestingly Putting stress on the medial side, the inner side of all the attachments right around my heel. Right around. I don’t need to get into that.

Grove Higgins

Right. Yeah.

Steven Sashen

If I were. If I weren’t who I am, if I didn’t know you and all the people that I’ve met over the last 16 years, I’d say, oh, my God, it’s plantar fasciitis. It’s like, nope. It’s just all these muscles. It’s so interesting to me that the tightness of the stuff on the muscle on the outside are causing pulling and tightening of the other things on the inside. And the proof of this, I mean, I did it to myself the other day, was I just massaged the crap out of everything on the outside side, and I used all the various tools that I had to just, you know, really, like, loosen that stuff up. And the next day I was feeling, like, 95% better. And the interesting solution that I’m crossing my fingers about, I mean, I’m trying to get some hyaluronic acid just into that joint to give it a little bit of protection and get a little space in there. And this is something I wanted to bring up with you because. And I’m doing that instead of getting a knee replacement because. Have you heard about the guys in Sweden who figured out how to make new cartilage for your knee? Yeah. Coming from your nose. Yeah. This is. So I reached out. So for people who don’t know, and I’m assuming it’s most of you people listening or watching people, took cartilage from your septum, the thing that divides your nose into left and right, which has a lot of stem cells in it. They put it in a matrix and let it grow for a couple weeks. Basically, they kind of coerce it to grow in the form they want, and they basically made a new bit of cartilage for your knee, which they say can’t grow. Even though when I had my knee surgery done, I saw a whole lot of growth. It was just going everywhere, so it just didn’t know how to put itself back together correctly. But there was growth happening, just not in a good way. Anyway, they put this new cartilage coming from your nose into your knee, and they found that it created an immediate benefit that got even better over the two years they’ve been doing this. I reached out to see if I could become part of the next study. Unfortunately, they’re studying patellar knee osteoarthritis, which I do not have. So I’m not getting A knee replacement. I’m hoping that by the time, you know, I can’t treat things with whatever else I’m doing, that technique will be improved.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, yeah. So that. That’s a great segue into talking about rebuilding structure.

Steven Sashen

That’s where we were going.

Grove Higgins

Awesome. We’re starting.

Steven Sashen

Structure it is.

Grove Higgins

All right. Yeah. So, you know, you’ve got a couple of problems there. One you had, you know, yours was done traumatically, Right. But I can’t tell you how many people we see where they have no history of trauma. Right. And. And so it’s all repetitive motion. It’s bad movement leading to wear and tear. Imagine, you know, you’re driving your car. You. You check the curb with one wheel, it’s towed in, and now all four wheels are wearing out because there’s this aberrant force going on, and your gas mileage is terrible as well. Right. And you could put new rubber on the tires, but it doesn’t change the alignment. And so you just keep putting more money into the car. More money into the car where. Where all you needed to do is have the one wheel realigned, and now everything works better. Right. So in your case, you know, you. You had this injury, it created an ins. An instant damage to a structure, but it also probably created some instability. And then over the years, because you’ve been fit, you kept it well enough that it was able to keep going down the road again with the wheel towed in. Right. But. Yeah, minimizing the damage. But over time, that instability has caught up. Right. And so now the tensegrity, if you’ve heard that word before, is now off. Right. So the. The. The idea between tensegrity is that if all things balanced. And I’ll use the analogy of a tent, if you want to put up a tent, it has members on the inside that are pushing out, and you have the skin which is containing it inside, and then you have guy wires that are holding it, and it can stand up to wind and snow and all sorts of stuff, but you take off one of those guy wires, and the whole structure starts to lean one way, right? And that’s us. After an injury like what you had there, one of the guy wires was cut or stretched, Right. And so the. The rehab is important because our body can compensate for a while, but then the tissue, the structure, starts to break down. Like your meniscus got worse, and then it affected the cartilage and. And such like that. What do you do about that? As a chiropractor, I can help you with the Alignment. But I can’t put structure back into you.

Steven Sashen

Right, right.

Grove Higgins

I wished.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Grove Higgins

That’s where regenerative medicine and regenerative techniques like shockwave therapy and such like that becomes a game changer in orthopedics.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. So talk more about those. And yes, I mean, this is one of those things where, of course, living in or near Boulder, when I describe what’s going on, everyone has an answer for what I should be doing. You know, if I just take some homeopathic whatever or if I see some shamanistic healer, I’m going, no, no, no. This is a building where a couple of the bricks are gone.

Grove Higgins

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

I mean, you know, this is. It’s not a big deal. I had 30 years of being totally fine even after a seriously traumatic injury. I’m cool with that. And so, um. And in fact, what saved me, ironically, was getting out of regular shoes because I was having. Because I’m actually. I totally forgot about this. I actually had a lot of knee issues up until I got out of regular shoes. And so my last, you know, 16, 17 years were saved by or extended by being predominantly barefooter and things like zero shoes. So I didn’t even think about that until just now. But anyway, talk about their. Talk about regenerative things. Shockwave, I find very interesting. I want you to talk about that. But I’m going to preface this by saying the first time I had it, and it was not because I was going for a treatment, it’s because I was at an event where the guys who sell that service were, you know, trying to sell their thing. I said, what’s. You know, do it to me. I want to feel it. And it was the weirdest thing I’ve ever felt. Because you’re getting sensations in parts of your body where you’ve never gotten a sensation because it’s inside your body and.

Grove Higgins

Right.

Steven Sashen

Weird sensations. So, you know, so anyway, talk about it.

Grove Higgins

Yeah. So. So I got into regenerative medicine because I had patients, again, that had deficient structure that I could not fix, no matter how good my hands are. And my hands are really good. Right. And so I. I wanted my. I want my patients to be better. And the last thing that I want, unless it’s necessary, is to have them cut on. Right, Right. And so I had this one patient who literally, his head was not attached to the top of his spine. When he would tilt his head to the side, we have the. The digital motion X ray. His skull would slide sideways, pinch his brain stem, and cause him to have seizure like activities. And he was getting diagnosed with seizure disorder, when really what it was is that the ligaments that hold the whole thing together aren’t there anymore. He was in a head on collision with a concrete barrier. The barrier one.

Steven Sashen

There we go.

Grove Higgins

He should have died. But anyway, long story short, that was my first foray into it because the only option that he had was putting screws into his skull to hold the whole thing together. And there’s one person in the world that did that at that time. Instead, he went to the Centennial Schultz Clinic up there in Broomfield near you and got PRP and stem cell work done to those ligaments and regrew them.

Steven Sashen

The. I want to. I want to pause there on something. Yeah, so I have a friend who is. Do you know. Do you know prolotherapy?

Grove Higgins

Oh, yeah.

Steven Sashen

Okay. I assume that you would. So for people who don’t. Prolotherapy for. So prolotherapy, they take a needle syringe and they stick the needle into your ligaments or tendons and inject something to basically select. Yeah, he added a little tiny. My friend Tom added a little bit of testosterone just to make the cells, like really open to whatever. Anyway, so my friend Tom Raven is the guy who taught prolo to almost everybody. And he’s a former radiologist. It felt like the guy had X ray vision. I watched him do things to people like with needles that were a foot long to try to get to the right spot with someone who was, you know, relatively overweight or. No, very overweight. It’s like, how did you do that? Now, granted, one time he was working on my knee after I had my surgery. He’s working or after I had the meniscus partially removed, and he sticks a needle. I’m lying face down on the table and he sticks a needle trying to get to something in the front of my knee, but has to get there from the back. And he nicks my tibial nerve and I pop off the table. Like I’m a foot off the table in midair and it was like an electric shock just popped me off the table. And I’m in midair thinking, I couldn’t do this. If I tried to physically. And I land and there’s a long pause and Tom goes, yeah, I was trying not to do that. But anyway. But prolo. Again, the basic idea, a little sugar water, just selectively injure the tendons because, you know, you get injured, your body’s going to do the best that it can for a few days to get you back up and moving, but not back to where you were before you got injured, necessarily. And that little injury is going to selectively, you know, generate restorative things to build more tissue. Anyway, the PRP version is the same idea, except that, A, they’re typically people doing it under with ultrasound to know where to put the needle. Tom could just, like, do it. And B, the. Often they’re doing it by spinning platelets out of your blood and injecting that as well with the idea that that will accelerate the healing process. I mean, the healing happens because platelets show up anyway. They’re thinking it’s better if you just do the. If you had the platelets to begin with and. But the biggest thing is by doing all those different things, using the ultrasound, spinning out the platelets, they could do this and bill insurance companies. So when I asked Tom about prp, he goes, it’s prolotherapy with a bunch of hand waving. So I’m not saying don’t do it.

Grove Higgins

I’ve so. And I’ve. And I’ve used. I’ve used both. And, you know, there’s a place for both. In fact, the. The one doctor that I utilize the most, he uses all three, right? He uses prologue. He uses prp. He selects the. He selects the weapon to kill the target, to do what needs to be done and such like that. But the cool part was, is that as I’m going through this, one of my other patients, he was really in need of something and asked about Shockwave. So I reach out to the Shockwave community that’s out there, and it was still just growing at the time, and the company came out, said, here’s one, gave me some training, gave me a unit to use for a month, and let’s see what you. What you think. I treated over 100 people in that month, and I was able to do things with that device that I could never do with my hands. And since then, of course, I’ve learned a little, a little bit more. So the lessons learned from PRPs.

Steven Sashen

Let’s start with explain what Shockwave is or how it. What it does, how it works a little bit.

Grove Higgins

So it’s using sound waves. So there’s ultrasound, which heats things up, and that could be helpful in its own form or fashion. And then there’s Shockwave, which is taking sound waves, putting them into the body, creating an area of high pressure so the sound waves come together. If you ever stood in front of a big concert bass speaker and you feel those waves of sound coming into your body, and you can feel it, you know, vibrating your organs. Right. Well, imagine that. But down at a micro level, happening inside the body. Well, that stimulation stimulates the cells that we’re targeting and, and promotes them to do a couple of things. One, their metabolism increases. So if you sit there and rub your skin, you’re going to get red right there because the metabolism is going to increase. More blood’s going to come to the area, things like that. So blood comes to the area that’s number one. Number two, you’re stimulating them. And like that growth hormone, the testosterone that your friend put into the injection for you, those cells start to express that because they are experiencing what they think is injury. So all of a sudden you have all of these growth factors being expressed from the cells that are in need locally. And so you’re getting better blood flow, better blood vessel formation to areas that don’t normally get good blood. Blood flow like ligaments. And you’re getting all these growth hormones. So you’re getting tissue formation and regrowing tissue. So it’s like prolotherapy, PRP and stem cell, but without the injection. And I could do it here.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it’s really cool. And, and I, I can’t describe the feeling, but imagine. Imagine someone really, really tiny punching you really, really hard ins.

Grove Higgins

There are ways to go about it. I utilize a technique called focal shockwave. So I can attenuate it down to zero pain and use it to create analgesia. So basically hide the pain.

Steven Sashen

Oh, that’s interesting. Well, I mean, I, you know, look, I mean, I like the intense things that. But, I mean, but the thing that’s so weird about it, again, it’s like you’re getting this thing, you know, maybe 10 millimeters centimeter inside your body. And so you don’t really have a whole lot of sensory input from that. So it’s just a bizarro feeling. It’s like, you know, a tiny little lightning bolt that just hits a spot. And when you find, you know, it’s kind of like if you find one of those spots on your body that’s just a little sore and you kind of rub on it and you’re getting something in there, it’s like that, but like fast and intense. So when you get the right spot, it’s that little bit of like little lightning kind of, pun intended, shock. And it doesn’t hurt hurt because it also has the thing. It’s like, oh, that was just the spot. That was the one. Yeah, yeah, it’s super interesting.

Grove Higgins

One of the cool studies that was done and, and I bring this one out. And so, so many of these regenerative medicine doctors that I teach about this now don’t even know about some of these studies that are out there because there’s thousands of them now. But they took a rat model, they haven’t done this in humans, where they go in and they surgically tear the meniscus just like you did. Right. And then with one application of shockwave and comparing it to, of course, control, which doesn’t have any into it, one application of shockwave at two weeks, you can start to see the surgical tear start to close up on the one that’s been treated and by four weeks and six weeks it’s healing. But on the non treated one, you start to see it degrade and degenerate. Wow. Right. And that’s with one application in a rat model. Granted, it’s a rat, but it still is very analogous to what you see in a human being. And I fixed hundreds of meniscus tears with just shockwave and no need. And with documented MRI evidence of it too, with no need for surgery.

Steven Sashen

Interesting. Well, I have to, I haven’t had an MRI on this one, otherwise I’d show it to you and see what you think. I mean, again, when I, when I. Well, they’ve removed a giant radial chunk of it. And, and like I said, I mean, I, it was really fun when they were going to give me the surgery. I said, they said, we’re going to put you under. I said, can I just get an epidural instead so I can watch? They’re like, what I want to watch.

Grove Higgins

That would be me, man. That would be me.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it was great. And at one point, you know, they’re doing this arthroscopically and I said, can I, can you pull that instrument out? Because I’m watching on the screen, it looks huge and you know, it’s this tiny little thing. It was really, it was very, very cool. But I mean, by this point I don’t know what’s there at all. It’s not like, you know, just as like right after I did it where it was a pretty good tear. Not even a complete section, but a pretty good tear. Probably something then. And like I said by that, well, I didn’t get surgery for a while because I didn’t have insurance for a while while. And when I finally got insurance, I went and saw the orthopod and he kind of moves my knee around. He goes, so what do you think? Surgery tomorrow? I went oh, geez, that bad? He goes, yeah. So, you know, and here we are 30 years later. So again, I’m not. The thing I’m doing now is just to get some fluid in that joint. So it’s just not so bone on bone. In fact, I went to my p. What the hell? I went to my PT just to. Because I was feeling this like, twangy thing that I thought was one of the tendons around my leg and. Or in my leg and my pt, who’s delightful. I said, see, when I make this move, it. There’s a snapping sound. It’s coming from the 10. And she goes, oh, sweetheart. No, that’s coming from the bones rubbing on each other.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, yeah. And that’s a. Not a nice feeling or sound. Yeah, it’s.

Steven Sashen

It’s uniquely unpleasant. It’s kind of like just cracking your fingers, except much more disconcerting.

Grove Higgins

It sounds like walking on old creaky boards. And yeah, it’s.

Steven Sashen

It. It. Yeah, the grindy part is unpleasant. The snappy part I can tolerate. The grindy part is unpleasant. Yeah, just. Just viscerally. So. So anyway, back to regenerative medicine. So, you know, this whole idea, I mean, I think this is really fascinating. This whole idea that a lot of these methods are basically selectively re. Injuring.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, they’re selectively re. Injuring. Creating a stimulus. And. And again, again, going back to the analogy of the foot and the brain. Right. The. The body needs input into the system in order to. To do what it needs to do.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Grove Higgins

So if it’s not getting that, if we protect the body too much. Right. So like that, like the, like your injury there, and we don’t return it back to proper movement patterns, then it continues to degenerate. And that’s typically what we do. We brace it, we protect it, and then inevitably inviting degeneration in. And we really just need to return things back. In a lot of cases, if we did that immediately, from an ankle sprain to a lot of different injuries, then we wouldn’t need to do interventions that cost a lot of money, that are very invasive and such like that. But instead we take a medical approach and unfortunately invite more problems into the situation a lot of times.

Steven Sashen

Sometimes. Yeah. I mean, I’m also. Well, I’m also trying to avoid at all costs the fact that I. My spine’s all out of whack from a gymnastics thing. Well, there’s an argument about gymnastics or congenital. But suffice it to say, whenever I show my. The sagittal picture of my spine to People who know nothing about bodies, and they go, oh, God, yeah, yeah, it’s. It’s. It’s a fun one.

Grove Higgins

Yeah. But your body’s figured out how to make it work and. And make high quality of life.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, I’m not. I mean, I’m. Yes. Is the simple thing. It’s not at a point where I can’t live the way it is. It’s just every now and then annoying.

Grove Higgins

Sure.

Steven Sashen

And my. Well, here, I’ll do this one again. So basically, I’ve got this for people who want to look it up. So it’s an L5S1 spondylolisthesis with a pars defect. In short, for people who. To give that to people in English, my sacrum. And then the first spinal vertebrae above it are misaligned. The spinal vertebrae is shifted forward about 50% of the distance from where it should be. But the pars defect is the fun part, which is basically the muscles that would otherwise hold that in place aren’t there. There’s nothing holding it in place. And the reason I bring this one up is it was a fun one when after seeing an mri, one neurologist said to me, anyone who recommends just doing core exercises, just. Just walk away because there’s nothing holding anything in place.

Grove Higgins

Yep. My wife has the same thing, and she just got back from 12 miles a day in Rome with no pain after doing prolotherapy pro, a mixture of prolotherapy and PRP a month before. And has no pain.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. I mean, I don’t know why I’m doing this for the fun of it. Like, every 18 months or so, I end up getting a little epidural because, like, my feet are cramping or some weird thing that’s happening. Some bizarro psych, some bizarro sciatic thing, but that’s it. I mean, otherwise, again, I was having a lot of problems until I got out of regular shoes.

Grove Higgins

Right. Yep, Yep. See it all the time. Yep, you’re right.

Steven Sashen

All right. And what have we missed, if anything, from everywhere we want to go?

Grove Higgins

You know, I. I think really what it comes down to is, you know, people, if they’re listening to this podcast, are interested in helping themselves one, but they’re getting it from people who are experienced, you and your industry, from all of the research that you’ve done, and. And the people that you. The thousands of people that you’ve talked to in this field. And. And then. And then. So learn from that, but then assemble a team of people and professionals that can help you. And the thing that you really want to look for are people who want you to be. Be at the best that you can be without them.

Steven Sashen

I’m gonna. I’m gonna add a caveat to that or an addendum to that, which is find people who are hip to what we’re talking about. Find people who. Who. I mean, I. I’ll never forget the first not conference. There was a panel discussion about barefoot running before I’d even started the company, actually, when I was just making sandals for people, and it was a bunch of physical therapists and doctors and whatnot. It was held at a physical therapy clinic in Boulder. And they were all saying things like, you know, if you want to run barefoot, it’s going to take you five to 10 years to adjust to be able to do that. I’m going, what the are these people talking about? And finally, I mean, I asked the question. I said, how many of you have ever run for at least a mile in bare feet on a road? And I was the only hand that went up. And I’m not even a runner. Runner. I’m a sprinter. And I’m going, you know, you guys don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re making up stories based on no information whatsoever. And the stories that you’re making up are completely contradictory to the experiences of hundreds of people that I know. And so when people talk to me that they have, you know, some issue where I’m going to recommend that they see a medical professional, I go find someone who’s hip to this whole idea, because there are people who. We all do it. We know very little about something, and someone asks about it. We make up a story to justify the way we believe it. And. And I see this. My God. I met a. I. I met a medical doctor who was. This is going to be weird. He was going to go have surgery for plantar fasciitis. And I said, why is that? I don’t think you have plantar fasciitis. He goes, what are you talking about? I said, well, can you just, like, raise yourself up on your toes? He said, yeah. And he did it. I said, well, does that hurt? He goes, no. I said, yeah, dude, you don’t have plantar fasciitis. I said, can you, while you’re on your toes, just kind of, you know, bounce from left to right so just, like, running in place a little, Just on your toes? Yeah. I said, does that hurt? He goes, no, you’re. I said, you don’t have plantar Fasciitis. I said, can you, while you’re doing that left and right thing, just bouncing back and forth, lean forward and just let your body go where it goes. And he just runs down the block and back. I said, any problem? He goes, no. I said, dude, you don’t need surgery. And he wouldn’t have had it anyway.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you tell the story about the special forces guy with plantar fasciitis.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, same thing.

Grove Higgins

All of his, all of his buddies are right. And pain is very imprecise. It doesn’t tell you anything specific most of the time. Right. And the best example I can give you is a paper cut. You get a paper cut and the whole world exists right there at that moment. Right? That’s all you could think about. But eventually your brain goes, oh, that wasn’t so bad. And it just turns off, right? Didn’t even bleed. But you can be walking around having cut your elbow and your wife looks at you and goes, hey, Steve, what’d you do to your elbow? And you’re like, I don’t know. Why didn’t that hurt? Right? So pain is, is, is just an output of the brain. It’s. It’s our job to then figure out as a good, as a good practitioner to find out what is the pain really pointing to and solve that problem for the person. Or is it just fear? It’s kind of like me starting out yesterday, walking on my six miles. After three to four miles, my brain is like, hey, your feet are not in danger. You’re fine. And so then that went away.

Steven Sashen

You know, here’s my favorite version of that. People who say, I tried the barefoot thing, but I got Achilles tendonitis. And I said, no, no, here’s what happened. You’ve been wearing a high heeled shoe, high heeled running shoe. And your brain has been trained to only let your Achilles stretch a certain amount. And what you then did is you switched immediately to a minimal shoe, a flat shoe, and you didn’t give your brain time to learn that it’s cool to let your Achilles stretch to the fullest extent that it can stretch. And people that what they say is, I’ve been wearing high heel shoes. My Achilles has shortened. No, the tissue has not shortened. If we cut you open, let’s go back to the cadavers. From the beginning, we could stretch your Achilles as far as it needed to be stretched because it’s not getting any, any input from your brain, but your brain is saying, whoa, whoa, whoa. It’s learned that that’s enough. Oops. Did I lose you somehow? Oh, man, I just. Oh, wow. I somehow just lost Grove. Hopefully he will be back in just a moment. Fingers crossed. And even more hopefully, I’m going to have to tell someone that at the one hour mark, roughly, we gotta bring him back. I’m going to pause the recording. We got interrupted by a technical glitch. So let me. So I was saying you’ve basically trained your brain to tell you that’s as much as you can do. And there’s whole methodologies. I’m one called Feldenkrais method. That’s all about retraining your, your brain very, very quickly. But the simplest thing is it’s like, you know, when I got back into sprinting, people said, well, you can’t train in your spikes. You’ll get Achilles tendonitis. Like, no, you’re training in a big thick shoe with a big heel. Then you’re switching immediately to spike that you’re not used to. This is the problem that you’re talking about. And people don’t. I mean, it sounds weird to even say that. So much of what we think is a physical limitation is just our brain trying to protect us from things that are totally cool.

Grove Higgins

Yeah, yeah, most definitely. And training is how you fix a lot of those problems. Proper training.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, exactly. Anyway. All right, Grove, as always, this is a total pleasure. If people want to get in touch with you or hear more about what you’re up to and what you’re thinking and doing, how would they do that?

Grove Higgins

Yeah, definitely. On the, on the, on the interwebs, go to. Yeah. Yes. Go to neuroathletechiro.com you can also reach me directly through Dr. Higginsuroathleteclinic.com and we have a YouTube channel as well and Facebook. And I try to put out some educational material, usually little tips and tricks on how to get the most out of life things that nobody else is teaching. Because there’s a lot of information out there and, and, and I want to be able to contribute to that. But I don’t want, want to just make content. Just to make content.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, I appreciate that. Well, again, thank you. And for everyone watching slash listening, thank you as well. Quick reminders before we call it a day. Go over to www.join the movementmovement.com there’s nothing to do to join. You don’t need to pay anything. There’s no secret handshake. We don’t do a magic dance every morning at 7:00am all right, yeah, we do that. But I won’t tell you about it now. And you’ll find previous episodes, of which there are quite a few places to find us on social media. And of course, other places. Find the podcast if you’re looking for somewhere else. And if you have any requests or recommendations, people you think I should talk to or anything else you want to cover, or if you just want to tell me what you’re thinking, you can drop me an email. Move M O V eoinethemovementmovement.com It’d be great if you can find someone who thinks I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome. I would love to talk to one of those people. That’d be a lot of fun. Usually they resist. I’ve talked to a few and said, come on, on, why don’t we do this live? They go, oh, no, no, no. It’s like, all right, whatever. Anyway. Most importantly, though, whatever you do between now and the next time we see each other, not really. You know where I’m going between now and whatever’s next. Go out, have fun, and live life feet first.

Are You Breathing Wrong?

marketdomination — Wed, 16 Jul 2025 00:00:05 +0000

Boost your CO2 tolerance and improve your breathing by practicing nose breathing techniques.

In this episode of The Movement Movement, Steven Sashen talks with Dr. John Douillard, DC, CAP, founder of LifeSpa and a respected figure in Ayurvedic medicine, who discusses how he’s been combining ancient wisdom with modern science for over forty years. His groundbreaking work, particularly in his book Body, Mind, and Sport, examines the benefits of nose breathing versus mouth breathing during physical activity. Dr. Douillard’s research indicates that nose breathing enhances nitric oxide production, a crucial factor in efficient oxygen intake and stress relief. It also significantly improves overall health and performance, as demonstrated in his work with elite athletes and firefighters. A strong advocate of the health benefits of nasal breathing, Dr. Douillard encourages making it a daily habit to enhance respiratory health, immune function, and overall well-being.

Key Takeaways:

→ Nose breathing improves oxygen intake and carbon dioxide removal, enhancing respiratory fitness.

→ Engaging the diaphragm and rib cage through nose breathing leads to better respiratory health.

→ Breathing through your nose during exercise lowers your breathing rate and enhances performance.

→ Proper nose breathing techniques can enhance athletic performance and recovery by activating the lower lung lobes.

→ Chronic mouth breathing in children can negatively impact facial and airway development.

Dr. John Douillard, DC, CAP, is a globally recognized leader in the fields of Ayurveda, natural health, nutrition, and sports medicine. With 40 years of experience, he has helped over 100,000 patients. Dr. John is a renowned Ayurvedic educator, host of the Ayurveda Meets Modern Science podcast, and bestselling author of seven health books, including Eat Wheat and 3-Season Diet. He is the creator of LifeSpa.com, where he proves ancient Ayurvedic wisdom with modern science in articles published weekly. With its thousands of free educational articles and videos, LifeSpa.com is the leading Ayurvedic health resource on the web with 500,000+ social followers and newsletter readers.

Connect With John:

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Website

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

Are you breathing wrong? I know that sounds crazy, but maybe you are, maybe you’re not. I don’t know. We’re going to find out today on this episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Typically starting feet first, you know, those things at the end of your legs. But we’re going to be, you know, moving up a little bit to talk about things above your legs this time, and including your legs too, frankly. We also break down the propaganda, the mythology, and sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, play, do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do, and to do it enjoyably and effectively and efficiently. And I’ve been gone for a while. Have I said enjoyably? I know I did. It’s a trick question because look, if you’re not doing something that you enjoy, you’re not going to keep it up anyway. So find something that works for you, that you have fun doing because that’s going to make the biggest change, that consistency. I am Steven Sashin, co founder and chief barefoot officer here at Zero Shoes. Here’s my T shirt to prove it. And I started this. We call it the Movement Movement because we’re creating a movement. And by we, I mean all of us, everyone listening and everyone you talk to. We are creating a movement about movement, letting your body what it’s made to do instead of getting in the way with things that are sold to you as, you know, better versions of something without a whole lot of evidence behind it. And the we part is really simple. Spread the word. Really, that’s, that’s it. Share with your friends, tell people to come here. If you want to find out how you can, how you can do that, go to our website, www.jointhemovementmovement.com. nothing you need to do to join. There’s no secret handshake, there’s no money involved. We don’t get up every morning at 6 and do the same chant. It’s just a place where you can find all the previous episodes, all the ways you can engage with us on social media and all the way places you can find the podcast and you can share that with people if they don’t use the one that you use to find podcasts and basically give us a like and a thumbs up and a five star rating and you know the drill. Basically. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. All right, let’s get started and have some fun. John, welcome, welcome. Really good to see your face, Tell people who you are and what you are doing here.

John Douillard

Hi, yeah, my name is John Duillard. I have been practicing ayurvedic medicine backed by modern science for about 41 years now. And my first book was a book called Body, Mind and Sport which happened back in the early 1990s. It was really one of the first books on nose breathing versus mouth breathing exercise. We published studies in the International Journal of Neuroscience and I ended up kind of introducing nose breathing to a lot of athletes. Billie Jean King, Martina Navratilova did the forward to that book. I worked with many tennis players, ended up getting a job as the director of player development with the New Jersey Nets in the NBA and taught them how to nose breathe. And it’s been a wonderful journey, kind of diving deeper into how we breathe. When I first started, you know, I would talk to medical doctors, pulmonologists, comparative anatomists and they will say there’s no difference between nose breathing and mouth breathing. And now you probably have have heard that everybody’s talking about nose breathing now. And I’d like to maybe today talk about some of the original research we did, which is mind boggling. And, and I was fascinated by the runner’s high and the zone and that best race is my easiest race to experience. And we did years of research and liter that we can make that happen. That’s what I want to share with you guys today.

Steven Sashen

Well, I’m not interested in any of that, so it’s nice talking to you and hopefully we’ll see each other again but. Oh well, you know, good shot. Actually, I’m gonna back up. So you and I met. I mean I started zero issues with my wife just shy of 16 years ago and I think you and I met like, like a year in. And this is one of those things where we had our lives within a few miles of each other and I think this is the first time we’ve seen each other in about that much time. And this is, you know, not even seeing each other, seeing each other. So it’s wacky. But anyway, it’s a pleasure. Okay, so that said, definitely want to talk to you about all of that. And the reason I want to kind of be candid up front, the reason that you are on this call is the one word that you used and I don’t remember, I’m not going to give the exact word. I don’t remember if you said scientific or science based. But either way that Part and I. There’s so many people who are doing work that could sound similar to what you’re doing or what’s going on now with the whole, you know, fat of nose breathing and mouth taping. And if anyone listening or watching doesn’t know what that is, just do a search and it’ll blow your mind. And there is some research coming out about some of that, but by and large, a lot of people who are promoting it do not. They haven’t done any primary research for sure. I don’t know how well steeped they are in any of the research at all. And of course, research in general, I’m not going to poo poo it and say that it has no value, but there’s a lot like in my world, the number of studies that have no value because they don’t understand that we’re not talking about footwear as much as we’re talking about form, and that it takes time to adapt to a new form. And the number of studies that say things like, oh, we gave people five minutes to get used to running barefoot, it’s like, no, no, that doesn’t work. So, you know, understanding how to even read a good piece of research or understanding how to read to see if a piece of research is good is a whole challenge. So anyway, with that as a giant, you know, caveat, slash, umbrella, slash, whatever, where would you like to begin? Let’s do the simple thing, because I know this is going to sound really dumb. This will be the dumbest question I think I’ve ever asked and I’m proud to do it. Can you tell people, I know it’s going to sound really silly. What’s the difference between nose breath, mouth breathing? And I actually have a reason for asking that that makes it not quite so stupid, but I know that sounds really stupid. I’m all in.

John Douillard

I mean, there’s the. The basic things your nose is. A filter rarefies the air. So when you breathe in through your mouth, it comes in kind of in a big. Through a very big tube, your trachea. But when you breathe into your nose, it goes through the turbinates, which are like a turbocharger, which swirls the air into a RA that drives it all the way down into the lower lobes of the lungs. Take a horse, for example. They’re obligate nose breathers. When they breathe, look where their nose is and look where their lungs are. It’s a long way away. So the only way it’s going to get into those lungs and they have massive Capacity for endurance and sprinting is to actually create a turbaned, a turbocharged drive of the air. When they first created the engine that we use today, the internal combustion engine, the air would mix with the gas and they would have a spark and boom. It would blow up and the piston would move and your car would go. Right. But they had a problem where the explosion kept happening in the same place and basically wearing out the engine very quickly. So they actually changed the valve that let the air and let the air in. And it came in like a throw, which is the beginning of the turbocharger. And when that happened, it drove all the gas, mixed all the gas in the air into the entire piston chamber. And that’s what we have today, is the internal combustion engine, this thing that can last 2,300,000 miles. That’s exactly how we’re designed. We’re designed to breathe through our nose. We’re obligate nose breathers. We learn how to breathe through our mouth as we grow up, feel stress, get stressed out, and every time that we get stressed out, we breathe a little different. The rib cage responds to that. And that stressed out upper chest version of breathing becomes normal to you. And then another stress comes along and that becomes normal too. And next thing you know, you’re breathing more shallow, opening your mouth, and there’s all kinds of problems that take place with that. So other than moistening the air and filtering the air, it does this kind of turbocharger effect to give you respiratory efficiency, but it also drives the air through the olfactory plate, which activates things like nitric oxide, which are the Nobel prize winning gas. That research was done in 1998. They called it the panacea gas that you make only when you breathe through your nose. And you make zero of this panacea gas when you open your mouth and breathe your mouth. Then also from the Ayurvedic perspective, which I love their idea, from the Pranayam perspective, and now we have research to back that up, is when you actually breathe through your nose, you activate what’s called the brain, lymph and glymphatic systems, which dump three pounds of trash plaque out of your head every year while you sleep at night. And if you don’t drain, well, studies show congestion of the brain, lymph and glymphatic systems are now linked. They only discovered that about 15 years ago, maybe 17 years ago now, in the University of Virginia. And congestion of those channels are linked to anxiety, depression, cognitive decline, inflammation and autoimmunity. And Studies show early in Covid that long haul Covid was linked directly to the congestion of the brain, lymph and glymphatic systems which are pumped by the diaphragm, number one breathing muscle, which, which and when you’re using the diaphragm with nose breathing, you’re going to get a natural pumping effect of the brain’s lymph and lymphatic system. And I can go on and on and on, but that’s a good intro.

Steven Sashen

So you just did something that is challenging. And what that is is you referenced a whole lot of ideas that obviously since I have not taken a dive into the research I can’t comment on. And the, the odds that you know more than a fraction of the people listening or watching this would be any different is pretty low. So that’s a request which is, you know, I want to make sure that we can reference all of that so people can take a look and see what’s some of the research and see what’s going on there. This is not a do your own research thing on the Internet where you’re just looking to prove something you believe.

But definitely wanting to look into it. I mean, I’m thinking about some of the things you said from a causal direction. So the phenomenon, I mean what you made me think of is I remember the first time I bought a shower head that was designed to be a low flow shower head, but put out more pressure. And the way it did it is that it had these little air intakes and was literally compressing everything from a bigger pipe into a smaller pipe, injecting air into it. And it actually was a low flow, high velocity shower head. So that’s an interesting phenomenon where I’m also going just for the fun of being a complete dick when I say things like this is it’s tricky to compare what we’re doing to.

While I like the analogy for the internal combustion engine in terms of getting the air in in the right way, of course we are kind of vacuuming the air in with the diaphragm moving rather than forcing the air in, which does create a different thing.

I don’t know if it does anything different. And the other my, my last sort of fun thought is for some of the things that we’re talking about, some of which I have heard and did raise my curiosity hackles if you will, not in a negative way, but just like, oh, that’s an interesting statement, I want to check it out is the thing about nitric oxide and for which is not the same for letting people know as nitrous oxide, which is what you get when you go to the dentist if you ask really nice or what you get if you were one of my friends in high school who stole it from his dad, the dentist.

But nitric oxide, which just for the fun of it, another my. My favorite thing I discovered about nitric oxide is how it’s produced in the blood vessels from just basically, if you just kind of bounce up and down a little bit, that shearing stress creates nitric oxide as well. Anyway, the nitric oxide thing and the. The turbulent, not in a negative way, the turbulence, however I want to put it thing that talked about with horses. That’s the kind of thing that I imagine both of those would be relatively. Well, the first, the nitric oxide one would be easy to see.

Just get a sample further down from your. After everything goes past about here and you’re breathing the horse one. I keep imagining something like a wind tunnel. There’s got to be some way of actually seeing that which would be cool as shit if. If you can. So anyway, that’s my weird collection of responses to lots of info in there, some of which.

Some of which obviously I have no way of making any intelligent comment about other than cool. It’ll be fun to take a look at into that. And some of it’s like, ooh, here’s some interesting ways that I wonder if people have looked at that so that people could. Some people are going to write it off right away. And what I’m really trying to do is get people. Wait, I’m going to say something really weird. People call me all the time to try to sell me on marketing programs to help our company do better. And I say, say, oh, wait, where the hell did this thought go? Come on, I can do it. This is working on not nearly enough sleep after getting back from Europe. I. Oh, man, I totally lost it. It was something about not proof, but some easy thing.

John Douillard

Anyway. Marketing program you were talking about.

Steven Sashen

Well, like when people try to sell me on something, they’re always trying to sell me on the good news. And oh, that’s what it is. And I’m always giving them every edge case and every reason why what they’re telling me won’t work because the only thing I can control is how much money I spend. And whether I’m going to lose it or not is managing risk. But what they don’t realize is what I’m really doing is saying, here’s all I’m looking for to make me give you my make me give you my money. So when I say something that sounds not, I mean it could sound critical, it’s really an invitation to say cool, since I don’t know enough about that, where can I go so that I can see if I’m going to give you my money? And I’m being highly metaphorical with that one, obviously. But anyway, that’s why I’m saying I hope we put together a good resource page for everyone.

John Douillard

Yeah, well, I appreciate your request for research and that’s pretty much kind of my world. I. I know.

Steven Sashen

That’s why I asked.

John Douillard

Not only have we published studies on this, but on my website@lifespa.com there’s over 1500 articles and my stick is kind of to look at ancient medical wisdom and find the science to prove it. And if you have something that’s been around for thousands of years and it’s still here today and you have science to prove it compared to science alone, which can prove whatever it wants, coffee can be good or bad, anything, you name it. I can give you studies on both sides of that aisle. But if you have something that’s been around and you have science, I feel like it’s something we should at least look at.

And my first kind of foray into that world of ancient wisdom and modern science was nose breathing, which I learned when I was training in Ayurveda in India. And when I came back we published studies on this. So there’s really good science on the difference between mouth breathing and nose breathing from nitric oxide perspective that is just to pubmed nose breathing, nitric oxide. And you will see that is absolutely hard science. The idea of the nose creating a rarefied stream of air is based on what we call turbinates in your nose.

They turbocharge your air. Pretty logical. And when you suck the air in through the contraction of your diaphragm, if it goes through a big hole, it’s going to not have the effect if it goes through a turbocharger, which is your turbinates. So logically and well scientifically documented, there is a complete difference of how the air comes into your lungs through your nose or your mouth.

And then what’s kind of cool is what I was fascinated by was the runner’s high the zone experience and how to we get that. I really wanted that. And I went to this must have been in the early 1980s. I went for a lecture on ayurvedic medicine and meditation and yoga and I was training for an ironman at the Time. And I went to this guy afterwards, I said, okay, I’m training for an ironman. What do you think about that? All this training from the ayurvedic yoga meditation perspective.

And he goes like, what is an Ironman? And I told him it’s 2 1/2 mile swim and 112 mile bike and marathon and all that. And he looked at me and said, why do you do that? And I had really no answer for that. I didn’t never really, no one ever asked me that before. And he looked at me like I was sort of an idiot. And he said, do you meditate? I said, yes, I do. And he said, do you sleep while you meditate? And I said deeply, I get this real deep knockout sleep. And he looked at me again like I was an idiot and said, meditation is not sleep. Meditation is a state of being alert and resting at the same time. It’s the coexistence of opposites. Your mind is aware, but your body is getting deep. Rest kind of like a hurricane. You have the calm and the winds of the storm at the same time. It’s the law of nature. And that’s what meditation is trying to replicate in us. I was like, wow, I didn’t realize that I would get this deep, deep sleep. And he goes, you’re exhausted dude, and you should probably stop doing all that.

And I was like, but what if I meditated more and trained less and I didn’t fall asleep? Could that work? And he goes, yes, yes. And he just kind of shoved me, next please, you know, just to get rid of me. And so I started doing exactly that. I started training less. I started going on weekend meditation retreats, about four or five of them. I went to a two week meditation retreat where they wouldn’t let me run. I could only walk and meditated. Yoga, breathe, meditate, yoga, yoga, breathe. All day long for two weeks straight. I came back out of that shot, out of the cannon. I started competing at a significantly higher level, started winning and placing in many of the events. Triathlons, I was in many of my friends. This was in the South Bay in California in the early 1980s when triathlons were just kicking off and everybody thought I was on steroids. Some of my dear friends who I trained with, they started meditating right away because they were like, what are you doing? And that just got me fascinated in this idea that less is more. And I had this runner’s high thing for about three months. Not just in my training, in every aspect of my life. I was Just like had a level of capacity. I was in my clinical internship at the time. I had a level of capacity that was like I was on some drug for like three months and then it ended and I wanted to get it back.

So I was able to then get invited to go. Well, I didn’t get invited. I went to India in 1986 for just a 3, 4 week vacation to try to learn ayurvedic medicine. Ended up getting invited there. I stayed there for a year and a half, closed my practice in Boulder and started learning all about Ayurveda.

I met Deepak Chopra there, came back, started running his center for eight years. And that’s when I started teaching medical doctors where I had to put the ancient wizard and the modern science together. So that’s why I’m very science based in this world. So then what we did, we published, we did a study on nose breathing versus mouth breathing with athletes. And we had them nose breathe one day and come back do the next week workout with a mouth breathe. They did 200 watts of resistance on an exercise bike. It’s pretty good workout. And when we had them breathe through their mouth, their brain waves. We had a brainwave test done. Their brainwaves were in a, in a fight or flight beta state. It’s pretty stressed out, like you’re driving in traffic. They came back the very next day and their brainwaves went into a meditative calm. All alpha bursts throughout the brain throughout the. And that was the first time anyone had ever seen alpha in the brain during vigorous exercise. With unprecedented finding published in the International Journal of Neuroscience in the early 1990s.

And you can get that on my website. Just type in nose breathing and all that will come up. And we also measured how many breaths they were taking during that workout when they had either the fight or flight state or the alpha brainwave state. And when they had their mouths closed, they were breathing at 14 breaths per minute, doing 200 watts of resistance on a bike when their mouths were open. Same kids, they were breathing at 48 breaths per minute. So imagine doing the same workout. One day you’re breathing 48 breaths per minute, the other day you’re breathing at 14. Most people sitting here watching this podcast are probably breathing at 16 or 18. Now you’re running as hard, pretty much as hard as you can go, or pretty darn fast, submaximal at least.

And you’re breathing four breaths per minute slower than you are sitting in your chair. We measure their perceived exertion, which is their, you know, where a 10 was the worst you could feel. Asking you how do you feel? How do you feel on a scale of 1 to 10 when they’re breathing, nose breathe, mouth breathing, they’re a 10 out of 10. When they’re breathing through their nose, 4 out of 10, same workout. So imagine you’re in a competitive state or you’re driving in traffic and you’re handling life stress.

This is a model. Exercise is a model for stress. If you can handle the stress of an exercise from a calm place, why can’t you handle the stress of your life? And that’s like how we take it off the mat. Not just like, I meditate, I feel good, then I go, you know, lychee seal, get stressed out and burn myself out.

The idea is to take it with you, right? And we also did a study where we measured the fight or flight nervous system and the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. And normally in exercise, any kind fight or flight goes to 100% and your parasympathetic goes to zero, which is your rejuvenative system. In our study, what happened was the sympathetic only went up 50% and the parasympathetic didn’t zero out, it went down. It only went down 50%. And we had the two opposite nervous systems coexisting. And that was the magic because that’s what was the runner’s high. The idea of the runner’s high is my best race, is my easiest race. You know, I feel this incredible effortlessness, but I’m, you know, going faster than I’ve ever gone before. You know, even Roger Bannister, when he broke the four minute mile, said, I felt like the world was standing still, yet he was running faster than any man alive.

Surreal phenomena. And since those studies in the 90s, we’ve now proven that when you are in the zone, your brain flips into a meditative alpha state. And when you look at the fight or flight nervous system, you need to have the dynamic activity and the composure in common at the same time.

I call it the hurricane effect. So the bigger the eye, the more powerful the winds. So the idea is that you actually don’t break your body down to build it up with fight or flight stress. What we do in traditional exercise is to create a level of efficiency with nose breathing that activates lower lobes of your lungs, where the receptors for parasympathetic activation the vagal responses in the lower lobes of your lungs. And that will tell the body that even though I’m going harder, this is not an emergency. And we have a whole protocol of how to actually make that happen every single time. It’s pretty cool.

Steven Sashen

The obvious. The semi obvious question is one that kind of comes to me, but for a different. But I have a very different answer. People say, well, if this whole barefoot thing or natural movement thing is so good, how come everyone isn’t doing it? And my answer is, because we’re not paying those people the way they’re getting paid to wear big, thick, stupid shoes. Yours is a very different thing. But. So the magic question is, what’s your take on how many people are doing this or have found this? And for those who haven’t, what up?

John Douillard

I mean, more and more. I mean, you know, James Nestor wrote a book called Breath, which was a massive bestseller. He’s a dear friend of mine. He actually cited my original research in the very. Be started his book with my original research, and he finished that book with my original research, which is pretty cool. And then all this new research in between, that’s happened since I did that study back in the early 1990s. So it’s become way more of a phenomena. You know, Patrick McEwen, who’s more of a Buteyko kind of a guy, he’s pushing, you know, pushing the needle out.

There’s a lot more. When I started it, I was laughed at. Now you have. There is real good science, you know, backing up, why we should become nose breathers. And I don’t necessarily suggest you should breathe only through your nose. You should be able to breathe through your nose under a certain amount of stress, indicating you have what’s called respiratory efficiency. Otherwise, what happens, like I said earlier, every time you get stressed out, we change how you breathe, and that becomes normal to you. And the ribcage, without you even knowing it, gets tighter and tighter and tighter, and the diaphragm gets weaker and weaker and weaker. In one very recent study, and you get the citations on my website, 91% of athletes that were tested did not have a diaphragm relaxing and contracting fully, right? So these are the best kind of, you know, the best respiratory fitness we see. And their diaphragm isn’t working as effectively as it could or should. So every one of us need to do this because as we get older, our ribcage gets tighter and we shallow breathe or over breathe.

And what that means is that you’re breathing in faster than you need to. And in one study showed that 75% of the oxygen the folks were breathing in, they were breathing that 75% out unused. So we’re just jamming in oxygen into oxygen saturation that’s already 98%. But the body can’t take any more.

And they’re breathing off all this excess oxygen because you’re over breathing. And when you’re blowing off all that excess oxygen you can’t use, you’re blowing off CO2. And what happens is you’re in your blood is your oxygen levels go to 98% saturation, but your CO2 goes very, very low. And that’s the perfect storm for stress and anxiety, which is why when people have an anxiety attack, you put a paper bag over your mouth, you Rebreather carbon dioxide, CO2 levels come back up, and you get calm. And what also happens is when that CO2 levels are low and oxygen is high, the bond between the oxygen and your hemoglobin stays very tight. It’s called the Bohr effect, which means that the oxygen is reluctant to actually leave your blood and get into your tissue.

So you walk around somewhat hypoxic. But as you learn how to nose breathe, which slows the breathing down. We talked about 48 breaths versus 14. It slows the breathing down. It gives you more time for CO2 elbows to naturally build up. There’s a receptor in your brain stem for carbon dioxide tolerance. And as you train yourself, you become more able to hold your breath or breathe slower without the need for panicking and breathing in an emergency state.

And the more you build CO2 tolerance, the CO2 rising is the trigger to release the oxygen from your hemoglobin into your tissues, and you restore this chronic hypoxia that people have walking around. Particularly notice over 50, 60, 70, and 80 when they walk around and they can’t really breathe. And I was.

I’ll tell you one quick story about this. I was coming out of a restaurant about a year ago, and there were a handful of elderly folks in their 80s or 90s coming out, and they were really struggling. Their mouths were open, they were really frail and fragile. And I was helping them get out of the door, and I was like, golly, if someone would have just told them that they could breathe five minutes a day, like 10 years ago. The studies show that that would that five minutes of breathing a day, strengthening the diaphragm in a specific way.

Western medicine calls it maximum inspiratory breathing techniques. It would reverse their heartburn, Guerdon reflux, which is shown in about 15 different studies, lower their blood pressure. Done at CU Boulder. Faster than in three minutes a day faster than the western medication or as well the western medication. It’ll pump their entire lymphatic system to detoxify their brain lymphatic system and combat this tendency for age related cognitive decline. And it’ll actually help move their entire lymphatic system because nobody knows that the diaphragm is the number one pump of your lymphatic system, which is critically important for carrying your immune system, taking the trash out of every cell of your body, and of course delivering properly digested fat into every cell of your body. So if you’re tired, immune compromise and you feel like your skin is breaking out or you’re holding on to water and you can’t get through, you feel toxic. This is most commonly a lymphatic concern. And your diaphragm is the pump for that. And most people are walking around with a level of respiratory efficiency inefficiency and they have no idea.

Steven Sashen

Okay, I’m going to pull one tiny thing out of that to dive into a little bit. So the comment of you don’t have to be nose breathing all the time, that’s not the expectation. Talk about the times or situations where it’s not. And of course one of the things I’m thinking about, since I am not a distance person, I’m a sprinting person. And of course you watch sprinters and especially a good 100 meter runner, maybe you have three breaths and some people are nose breathing, some people are not, doesn’t really matter. But the one thing that is common is as soon as you finish the hundred, there’s a lot of this going on and just trying to get some air in, since it was a totally anaerobic thing to do. And it’s an argument I’ve had with people who talk about high intensity interval training and they say, oh, sprint for 30 seconds, rest for 30 seconds, do that eight times. And I go, if you can do that more than twice, you’re not sprinting. You might be running as fast as you can, but you’re not sprinting. And I had this argument with somebody and finally I said, look, when you go all out for 30 seconds, how far do you run? And the guy very proudly says about like 150 meters. I said, okay, that’s cool. I’m twice your age and I run about 225 meters in that same 30 seconds. So we’re doing a very different thing biomechanically and energetically. And I mean energetically in any sense other than putting out energy and putting out force. Into the ground. So other than when you are trying to recover from some massive anaerobic something, what are the other situations where people might find that mouth breathing is just the thing?

John Douillard

Well, you know, first of all, from the endurance side, I’ve worked with so many endurance athletes. I mean, I was, my world, was the triathlon world originally. And I’ve got, you know, Scott Molina, who was one of the, who was the Ironman winner, champion and worked with so many triathletes over the years. John Weissenreider was the number one mountain bike rider racer in America at one point when my book first came out and I worked, worked with him and he was a nose breather, mountain bike riding in Colorado. So that’s a powerful piece. You know, tennis players, Billie Jean King, Martina, they nose breathe. So it’s a matter of creating a level of respiratory fitness. Now if you’re breathing through your mouth all the time, your rib cage is going to take advantage of that by doing what it only knows how to do, which is squeeze all the air out. And the rib cage will become like a cage squeezing your heart and your lungs 26,000 times per day. Where. So if you don’t get that diaphragm engaged and get that rib cage moving, which is also part of the pump of the lymphatic system, then you’re going to, you’re going to lose your ability to breathe. And just from the mechanics of breathing, getting the air in again, the CO2 out is going to be compromised. But all the other science about that’s connect to how the breath connects to everything else is, is critically important. But if you’re, you know, when John Ricenreider was climbing up a hill, mountain bike riding, he didn’t have his mouth closed the entire time. You get up, you have to get up to the top of that hill and then you try to recover and reset your nose breathing on the way back down. You know, when I first started my book first came out back in the 1990s when I was here in Boulder, I taught a free class in North Boulder Park. You may have heard of it. You were here in Boulder as well?

Steven Sashen

I’m only there every Sunday with friends for a picnic brunch. So.

John Douillard

Yeah, yeah. Well, this was like every Wednesday at like 7 o’clock in the morning. Yeah. And we had all these nose breathe people come to learn nose breathing. It was a free class. And then one day this fire trucks came and parked and they put all their stuff on. They came walking over to my class with the helmets and the gas masks and the tanks. Air tanks. And I was like, what are you guys up to? And he goes, we’re here for the nose breathing class. I’m going like, really? And they said, yeah, we have a competition every year where we see how long a tank can last. And the record’s 28 minutes. And we had this little kid who’s one of our intern guys, and he come into your class and he broke the record by like, he was like, 35 minutes. He goes, One minute can save a life. He blew it up. So we’re here to learn this. And so I said, okay, let’s do it. So we taught him the nose breathing stuff and ended up doing an in service in Denver Fire Department, teaching them how to nose breathe because it created that level of efficiency. So it isn’t like you have to. That’s. That’s wrong. Obviously, we. We. We have to. I’m breathing through my mouth as we speak, but when I go to bed at night, I do. And we are designed the Native American children in India, I saw studies where they had trained their children in a traditional way to tuck their chins, sleep on their side, and become nose breathers. Because when you breathe through your nose, you do produce nitric oxide, which is the body’s most powerful antiviral gas. And so after we talk and interact and breathe, whatever, during the day, you go to sleep and you wash your respiratory tract with this antiviral gas, which again, another piece of the respiratory immune response so you don’t get exposed and give the viruses a chance to proliferate inside of you. It’s just such a beautiful understanding of how this diaphragm and this breathing is really a part of everything in our body. And it’s not just breathing only as people think, you know.

Steven Sashen

So given what’s happening of late, which we both referenced before with regard to nose breathing, AKA mouth taping, talk to me about your thoughts on that.

John Douillard

I don’t think that you have to mouth tape for the rest of your life. I think that’s a little ridiculous. However, if you wake up with a dry mouth ever. And that means that when you open up your mouth, you are actually drying out the bacteria in your mouth that actually. And there’s about a thousand different species of bacteria in your mouth that are antibacterial. And when you dry your mouth out, there’s opportunistic bacteria that take advantage of that dryness. One called Streptococcus mutans, which is Dracula linked to the plaque on your teeth. That get. That bacteria gets into your mouth. And 64% of the plaque in your arteries comes from that bacteria. So the entry point for these bacteria, plaque causing bacteria, come from your mouth.

Steven Sashen

Which is why I gotta pause right there to highlight something. So my father was a dentist, and one of the things that people, the dentists will say that people do not seem to put two and two together about, is after certain kinds of dental procedures, you are at a higher risk of a cardiac event. And people have no. I mean, it seems so crazy, but you just explained the why of that in a way that when people, when I were telling people that years ago, because I had heard it directly from my father, it sounds crazy. It’s like, why getting my teeth cleaned, is that making it likely that I’m going to have a heart attack or have other, some other stroke or any other ventricular event and, or vascular event? And so do me a favor and give me that one again, just so people hear it, because it does sound crazy off the top.

John Douillard

So there’s. When you dry out your mouth, you wake you sleeping through your mouth while you’re snoring or sleeping with your mouth open, you’re going to dry out your mouth. It’ll dry out the environment that supports a health, healthy microbiome in your mouth. When you dry it out, the good bugs sort of the environment disappears. They go first. You’re ended up with opportunistic bacteria called streptococcus mutans who can get in through bleeding gums and into your blood.

And it’s responsible for 64% of the plaque in your arteries. And there are also research showing that that same bug might be responsible for the plaque in your brain related to Alzheimer’s. So there’s a lot of research going on about that. But it goes even more than that, Steven. There’s, you know, we all heard of nitric oxide, and it’s the panacea molecule. And there’s a lot of research on how do we get that. And a lot of people are eating beets and, you know, taking orginine and citrulline and all these things to arugula to get more nitric oxide.

And it turns out how that actually works is the nitrates in foods like arugula and watermelon and beets and lettuce and things like that, that when you eat that and you chew it with your saliva, the saliva, the bacteria in your mouth are actually converting those nitrates into nitrites. And then when that. And you swallow that, that’s what triggers the nitric oxide in your body globally, not just in your mouth. However, if you have a dry mouth and you’re killing all the bacteria which are responsible for converting the food into from night, the nitrates in food to nitrite, you don’t get that. And also what happens if you’re using alcohol or fluoride toothpaste or anything like that? You’re killing those bugs that change the nitrates into nitrites to give you nitric oxide, nitric oxide. By the time you’re 40, you’re already producing about 40% less nitric oxide than you did when you were 20.

So it’s one of those age related decline factors that are directly linked to the accelerated aging and aging and cognitive decline, age related concerns. So, so you really want to chew your food with your saliva. You want to have saliva that’s got the right bacteria in it. In an ayurvedic medicine, what they would do. I saw this for the first time when I was in India, like in 1986.

And there’s this guy in a fountain and he was taking a bath in a fountain. I was like just staring at this guy and he had a little bottle of oil and he was putting oil over his body in the fountain. Then he would put the oil in his mouth and he was swishing it in his mouth. And now we have science. I’ve written articles about the science of what they call oil pulling. And when you swish your mouth with oil, it’s been shown to be as effective as the mouthwashes without the alcohol.

That kills 99% of your bacteria. And that is obviously really bad. It actually kills the bad bacteria, creates an environment for the good bacteria to proliferate and sets you up for what we actually need on the most subtle level, to take the nitrates in that food to actually convert them into nitrites and nitric oxide.

And that happens in your mouth when you chew the food with your saliva. So all sort of roads in that regard lead to oral hygiene. So how would I recommend people do. And I get this at our local grocery store. It’s called, it’s a nexcare tape. We sell it at King Soopers here in Colorado. And it’s a micropore tape for sensitive skin. It’s a blue color. And what you do is you put it on your mouth like this, vertically instead of. And then you can still talk to your wife or spouse or whatever partner a little bit.

And if you wake up in the morning and it’s on the Ceiling somewhere didn’t go well. But if you wake up in the morning, after a couple of days you’ll wake up, it’ll still be there, which means we’re starting to breathe better at night. And once you get there, then go here, seal it all. You can’t put lotion on. Seal it all the way. And again, once you get that where that’s there in, you know, every night for about four or five nights, take it off.

You’ve trained yourself to nose breathe you and you will not have a dry mouth. Once you start waking up with a, with a dry mouth again, you can do a little kind of re education for it. But that’s how I look at it because we really do want to breathe properly as we. And even the guy, the original, I can’t remember the guy’s name, but one of the researchers told me the guy who invented, coined the phrase sleep apnea.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

John Douillard

Said it’s all about the long term, chronic dysfunctional breathing through your mouth and snoring while you’re sleeping. And if you actually keep your mouth closed, you mitigate all that. And there’s research on kids when they breathe through their mouth, they don’t get facial development. Airway development doesn’t happen. There’s so much research on, you know, kind of a, kind of a V shaped palate versus a nice wide palate in your mouth that creates airway space that we just don’t have as a culture. Dentists are now seeing people who actually don’t even have room for their wisdom teeth. And because they’re calling it a devolution where we’re actually devolving to have a smaller jaw because we don’t breathe properly to keep it open and wide to make room for the teeth. So now we’re having kids that are, that are being born and they don’t even make the wisdom teeth anymore. We’ve changed that much because of, of this sort of dysfunction where traditional cultures were training their kids. The papoose in the native American cultures were designed to keep their head like that, little baby’s head like that, which forced their mouth close and therefore made them into nose breathers. It’s just amazing, really.

Steven Sashen

Yes, quite. And I had somewhere that I was going to go from there, but now I can’t remember that at all. So what I’m trying to think of something else. So if people want to start experimenting with nose breathing and this kind of goes back to Nestor’s book in a way when they’re being active, talk about that, about getting you know that habit or. Because I know that. I know some people who I’ve talked to, played with this, and they kind of try to go all in, or they’re doing. They’re. They’re putting out too much effort or doing something where they have the idea that they should be doing this. But they. I was gonna say they try it and they go, it doesn’t work. It’s kind of like when someone says, I tried this barefoot thing and it didn’t work. And the first question I ask is, were you actually barefoot? And they go, well, no, but I was wearing. Wearing shoes that are sold as barefoot. And I go, which ones? They go, well, these. And they’re, you know, like an inch thick. And. And they’ve. And then I also say, look, it’s about form, not footwear. So that’s a whole other thing. So if people want to start experimenting with this, what advice can you give them for having a positive experience or at least knowing what to do if they don’t?

John Douillard

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, after my years of teaching that course outside North Boulder Park, I was invited into a healthcare club to teach it inside a health club because it became quite popular. And I said, it’s fine. I’ll do it. In healthcare, you have to let the public come into your health club for free. So they gave me a bank of treadmills, okay. And this is what I would have them do every time. And it’s written as an article@lifespot.com just type in the runners higher the zone, and that article will pop up.

And so what we do is you get on a treadmill two miles an hour. Everybody can pretty much walk pretty slow at two miles an hour. Now, while you’re just walking a zero degrees elevation at two miles an hour, breathe deeply in through your nose and out through your nose, really long and slow and deep. And the key piece here is to notice the space between the top and the bottom of each breath, right? You’re not breathing in, out, in, out. You’re breathing in and out like a sine wave. Nice, long and slow, a natural linking of each breath.

So you’re walking at two miles an hour and out. Now, to make it a little bit better, if you do what Ayurveda calls ujjay pranayama, where you constrict the back of your throat, that will engage your abdomen and force your abdominal muscles to contract on your diaphragm, which contracts onto your heart, which is where the vagus nerve is.

And that creates a vagal response which tells your body the war is over. This was Carl Sta’s work who, who did the research with the Olympic team in the 1964 Olympic team, when it was the first time they were going to do the Olympics in Mexico City at altitude. So they hired this breathing expert who taught opera singers and he taught them how to exhale all the way, which they weren’t doing. I think it was Evans who won, they won more gold medals there in Mexico City than any other time before. And they were all taught to fully exhale. And that’s really important because that creates the abdominal diaphragmatic cardiac massage which puts the brain into an alpha state. So we want to have a full exhalation during this process. So inhale long, slow and deep, exhale all the way, squeeze your abdomen, get that air out.

There are secondary muscles of breathing. So after about five minutes of just getting the rhythm down, then we’re going to increase the elevation, 1 degree of elevation every 15 seconds. So every 15 seconds increase it a little bit, A little bit. But you’re watching that breath, that space between the breath. And if you begin to lose the space between the breath, say at 4 degrees elevation, you go right back down to 0 degrees elevation and re establish that calm linking of the breath.

And I’ll be asking people on the treadmill if they’re at 4 degrees, are you breathing the same rhythm of the breath you were with the space between each breath you were in very beginning? And they’re like oh no. And I go, Then you go back to zero. Right? Because we are so conditioned to exercise to the blood lactate threshold that we’re right on the edge of anaerobic activity way before the breath lost that space. Now we’re doing this breathing through our nose, ready to go into full blown mouth breathing exercise. So you need to pick up the stress earlier on. And you probably know that the, that when you’re exercising your, your muscles can convert the blood lactate, metabolic waste on the muscle site back into glycogen. But when you ask the body for too much, it’s going to ship all that lactic acid back to your heart. And then what’s going to happen is you’re going to have to breathe faster and heart’s going to have to pump faster.

And that’s the beginning of when that breath rate starts to get a little bit faster. So if you can become tuned into that and then slow it back down. So at four degrees you lose the space between the breath, you go right back to zero Reestablish the link, the space between each breath. Once you get it, go out, go after it again, one degree every 15 seconds. And this time, and I did this for 10 years, every week for free for so many people, thousands and thousands of people.

And I’ve never had anybody say go. Didn’t see their breath rate go like some 4 degrees. Now they’re doing 8 degrees. And now the breath gets short, then they go back to zero. The next time they’re doing 12 degrees, breath gets short, now they’re zero. And then when, then you just increase the speed to three or four miles an hour and go through the same process.

And people would literally be able to document the fact that they’re doing more work with the same exact exertion level that they had in the very beginning. And that’s how you start building that, that eye of the storm. You’re building a level of composure and calm that’s allowing you to handle more stress. You don’t have to break your body down to build yourself up. Of course that works in the world of athleticism, in the world of sports, but we’re trying to squeeze out as much performance from a 18 to 25 year old, as much as we possibly can, with no care about what happens to them in their 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s, you know what I mean? We’re just trying to squeeze it out, get as much stress, recover stress, recover. And as we all know, as we get older, we don’t recover as fast, we can’t handle as much stress as we once did. So we break down, stop exercising. But when you actually get respiratory efficiency, you are able.

And here’s the best part, the final phase, the first phase is called the resting phase in my book. You listen to the space between the breath, five, ten minutes, the listening phase of the next phase where you listen to you go a little faster and you listen carefully as you, your body saying this is going to be calm or going to be a stress. As soon as that breath gets short, you bail out. And the final one is the performance phase. This is the runner’s high phase. So what happens? This is the magic. All of a sudden as you go on that treadmill, you start going a little bit higher on elevation.

Your body is going to choose, instead of breathing faster, it’s going to realize it’s more efficient to breathe deeper, longer and slower because that’s where all the oxygen exchanges. If you’re fully exhaling, you’re squeezing all the air out, the dead air space, 500 milliliters worth of air out so you can breathe in that much more air. So your body is starting to realize, I’m a more efficient machine. When I actually breathe longer, deeper and slower, I’m building more carbohydrate, more CO2 tolerance, and that’s driving oxygen in my tissues better, more efficiently. It’s sort of like a free diver, right? They’re diving down 300ft down there for 11 or 12 minutes without any oxygen at all. Their CO2 levels are rising. The body’s saying, dump all the oxygen I have into your tissues. And they’re happy down there unless they die, which happens. Push it too hard. But there is a phenomena, it’s called intermittent hypoxia. When you hold your breath, which is really well studied, and that happens very gently and gradually when you begin to become a nose breather, either in transition. I’d only been able to breathe through your mouth. I got.

Steven Sashen

I got two, maybe two or three thoughts, thought. Number one, I have a friend who was a therapist, but also did a lot of breathing work and was living in Colorado Springs and had a bunch of Olympic athletes that came to him from the Olympic Training Center. Most of the, he said the majority of the endurance athletes that showed up asthmatic, which, which was fascinating. The second one had another friend who invented the first real time biometric sensing device. It was basically a neoprene vest, a bunch of sensors in it, and a little Palm Pilot that was recording all that data. And they had this on a race car driver, and they’re watching him in a race, you know, averaging about 200 miles an hour. And while his pulse was pretty high, like 160, 170, his breathing was not slow. I mean, this is, you know, like a crazy event. At one point, they suddenly see the breathing drop and the heart rate drop dramatically, and they’re like tapping the computer to see what’s going on. They’re checking all the wires. Then finally someone looks up and they see the car rolling. And when he finally came out of this fiery wreck, everyone said, what the hell happened? I mean, we suddenly saw everything just slow down. He goes, well, once it starts rolling, there’s nothing else I can do. Which, which I bring that up as a training that, you know, it is a kind of breathing training that there’s nothing happening there, there’s no reason to be stressful. But they just learned this from just time and time again, like, the best thing I can do is just like, wait and see if I make it. And, you know, he did. And happily, frankly, Racing’s gotten much safer and there are very few deaths.

John Douillard

I hope so. I can’t tell you how many letters because this is way back before emails and all that, when the book came out that I got with people with exercise induced asthma. Yeah, just like you said. I mean study. I mean, patient after patient after patient. I would take these. One. I remember one big rugby player, he came in, I said, well, he came to our clinic, I said, well, let’s go for a walk. I want to teach you how to breathe, you know. He goes, oh, no, no, no, no, I can’t walk because I. I don’t do that. I have my bag of inhalers. This big monster of a guy couldn’t even go for a walk. And I was like, like, let’s do this, you know. So I worked with him for a week and he, After a couple of days, he was like, man, I haven’t taken a walk like this in years and years because of my exercise induced asthma. The thing that causes exercise induced asthma can be fixed by proper breathing. I mean, absolutely. I’ve seen it so many times. And that’s because they’re huffing and puffing, creating this fight or flight emergency response. Shallow breathing, upper chest breathing. The rib cage gets tighter and tighter and tighter. Now you got a cage, you got a problem. Once you get that opened up and get that diaphragm involved, which is pumping lymph, which is. The lymph is taking the waste out of your heart and your lungs. And if that’s not, everything’s going to back up and you’re going to be in a fight or flight breathing state. So I’ve definitely seen that, you know, the race car drivers, you know, I think it is like, just, you know, cut the bait and see what happens.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. All right. I got two things that I’m going to say in both because I’ll forget one of them if I don’t. The first one. Crap. Oh, the first one. So when we talked about breathing about this slow, full inhale, exhale, and really squeezing that last bit out, we kind of glossed over a little bit about the space between the breaths. So I want you to dive into that a little more and then I’m going to give you the other one because again, I’ll forget otherwise. I’m curious what your experience has been with people who have chronic fatigue, which is similar to some of the things we’ve already talked about. And one of the things that they often report is, I don’t remember. There’s a term for it. But basically any sort of exercise or exertion has a paradoxical effect on them. It isn’t helpful. It’s often the opposite. But anyway, I don’t want to poison that well and prejudge your answer, but talk about the space between breathing and then if you have anything to add for chronic fatigue people, I’ve heard from a few of those that would be.

John Douillard

That’s a great, great, great question. And so the simplicity of this is you go for a walk, walk and you breathe long, slow and deep, right? And long, slow and deep. And you tune into the space between the breath and then you start going up a hill and then you see if that space gets a little bit shorter. Keep asking yourself, do I have the same space between my breath, same comfort between each breath as I did when I first started? As I’m going up this hill and if you didn’t turn around and start walking back down the hill until you get that space back down, back, and once you have it back, turn back and go up the hill again and you’ll find that that hill you couldn’t do today. In a week or two you’re able to do it. But you’re right. I always tell folks, be prepared to suffocate for the first three weeks because you don’t know how to do this.

Your rib cage has gotten so tight and rigid, you’re not going to be a nose breather day one. So just give yourself some time to kind of make this happen. So it’s really very, very simple, very simple, simple technique. You can also simple technique is go for a walk and just count how many steps you take on your inhalation. 1, 2, 3, 4 steps for your inhalation. And then count how many you do for your exhalation. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. On your exhalation, your goal always through the nose, in and out through the nose is 10 steps for your inhale and 15 to 20 steps for your exhale.

That’s your goal. And if you have more on the exhale, that gives you CO2 more time to build up. That tells your body to calm down, turn off the alarm bells, and also drive the oxygen into your tissue. So that’s another really simple way to kind of enter into this as well. Now, with chronic fatigue syndrome, we know that the lymphatic system, which is pumped by your diaphragm, does three things. It carries your immune system, it takes out all the trash from extracellular fluid in your body, and it also delivers fat as properly broken down, properly broken down fatty acids for energy to every cell of your body.

Now, if you’re, if your lymphatic system is congested, you’re not going to deliver that energy and you’re going to be chronically fatigued. When I see Epstein Barr virus in my practice, or chronic fatigue syndrome, my practice, I always evaluate their lymphatic system on my website@lifesuva.com we have a lymph quiz. You can take a quiz and ask yourself all these questions about different types of lymphatic concerns. There’s brain lymph, there’s skin associated lymph, there’s gut lymph, there’s respiratory limp. They all have different symptoms associated with them. And once you see, yeah, that’s me, then we can treat that lymphatic system with hydration, with ayurvedic rhythm, which destagnate that with exercise. Obviously. Clearly, number one is breathing. Of course, breathing while you sleep at night can be another piece of that puzzle as well.

But you know, chronic fatigue doesn’t mean we need to give you more B12 guarana. You know, you know, caffeine to stimulate your adrenals and drive your body, make energy that you literally don’t have and drive you further into debt. Even though symptomatically I feel good for 20 minutes. It’s a deeply resolve and understand the upstream cause of this problem. And I address the lymphatic concern. And where does the lymphatic system start? Inside your digestion.

So a troubleshooting, you know, really deep dive troubleshooting. You’re running a fine tooth comb through every aspect of your digestion is critical because your digestion is your ability to not only deliver energy, but also detoxify. They use the same pathways and if your limbs congested back up, evaluate digestion. We have another article you can get all for free called the Digestive Health Quiz. Ask yourself all these questions about your digestion and find out where that’s broken. Then you can fix that and then fix your lymph and then get the breathing going. And then all of a sudden you’ve treated some upstream stuff and a lot of your problems are going to disappear simply by doing those things.

Steven Sashen

Love it. Anything we left out, this is quite comprehensive. I know. You know, people tease me. They go, your podcast is one of the only ones that I don’t listen to at double speed because then I couldn’t understand it. But this one, it’s a similar thing. Not because of talking fast, but because of just the amount of Information that I know people are going to want to take a look at. So anything we left out before we wrap it up?

John Douillard

Well, the other thing I would just say is just kind of, kind of tease everyone to understand. You know, I learned the nose breathing when I was in India. And that’s the world of pranayama, right? Breath, you know, breath training. And prana means breath and yam means to pause, hold or extend the breath, right? So what we’re talking about here is slowing down your breath. And studies show when you actually slow down your breath, like a free diver, they’re not even breathing, right? That slows down the breath. The body goes into a state of what’s called intermittent hypoxia. So the original Pranayama technique was to train your body to hold, pause or extend your breath. That’s what the Ayama of Pranayama means. And when you do that, there’s incredible science. So when you learn how to slow down your breath, really slow, six breaths per minute, or four breaths per minute, or three, or even two, or even one, you go into a natural state of intermittent hypoxia. And I’ve got three or four articles on this on my site to dive into the details. But when you’re in intermittent hypoxia, which is the original Pranayam idea, you produce this intermittent hypoxia, which is called, which is when you produce stem cells, the EPO that Lance Armstrong got busted for injecting, you make yourself. When you hold your breath, you produce endothelial growth factors to protect the lining of your arteries. You produce guardians of your genome, transcription factors that protect you from age related expressions of genetic weaknesses or tendencies that can oftentimes take us out. It’s been shown to increase your nitric oxide change, neuroplasticity, which is old crazy mental patterns of behavior that make us do the same dumb stuff again. Lower blood pressure, lower blood sugar. It’s sort of crazy what they found when they started studying these free divers. They’re like, wow, they’re holding their breath. They’ve got a skill to do that. And look at what they’re getting in benefit in return. You know, of course, if they don’t push it too hard. So that’s where this really goes. It gives you the idea that this breathing thing is ignored. The diaphragm, the biggest muscle in your body. Nobody exercises it because you can’t put a dumbbell on it. But it’s the most important muscle in our body. And that’s kind of the takeaway here today. Is just, you know, go to my website, try some of these breathers. An article called the best Diaphragmatic Exercises. Another article called Lateral or horizontal breathing. Watch those two. Get your diaphragm back online, do some nose breathing for fun and enjoy the ride.

Steven Sashen

So other than going to lifespa.com anywhere, anything else people should check out or any other way, if people want to get in touch with you, they should do that.

John Douillard

Yeah, well, they can. You know, I’m on all the social platforms as well. We also have a podcast. You’re on my podcast as well, so you can check out or you know, when I dive into, you know, deeper in discussions with other people on some of these topics as well. But yeah, lifespy.com is where you can go. You can sign up for our newsletter. Get we put publish three articles on ancient medical wisdom and modern science a week. So we’re constantly putting out new, new, new content, taking a deeper dive into things like nitric oxide, nose breathing and so much more.

Steven Sashen

Love it. Well, John, first of all, as I said, great to see you again. Thank you for all of that. For everybody else, I do hope you take advantage of looking all this information up, putting it into practice, more importantly and getting in touch with John to let him know what that has done for you. And I want to hear about that too. Speaking of which, a reminder, head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes, all the places you can find us on social, all the things you can do to spread the word, to share and like, and give us a thumbs up and hit the bell icon on YouTube. And. And like I said, you know what to do if you want to be part of the tribe and be part of the movement. Movement, just subscribe. And more importantly, if there’s anyone you think I should have and have a conversation on the movement Movement, let me know. Drop me an email. Move m o v eoin themovementmovement.com and if you know someone who thinks I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome and you can get them to talk to me for a while, that would be a blast. No one’s taken me up on that yet. I’ve tried. Has worked. And last but not least and again, I think most importantly, between now and whenever we chat next, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Don’t Run Strong Wrong!

marketdomination — Wed, 18 Jun 2025 00:00:13 +0000

Discover how an aerospace engineer turned ultra runner is helping athletes unlock their full potential by optimizing running techniques for peak performance and injury prevention.

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Samuel Stow, an accomplished ultra runner with over two decades of endurance racing experience, who has carved a niche for himself in the optimization of running techniques. With a unique blend of aerospace engineering and biomechanics expertise, Samuel has effectively enhanced his own performance and that of his clients by integrating Chi running principles since 2009. He advocates for the utilization of the posterior chain, emphasizing the importance of proper body alignment, posture, and core activation, not only to boost performance but also for long-term health and injury prevention. A certified personal trainer, Samuel underscores the role of strength training in developing muscle awareness and biomechanical efficiency, making him a sought-after expert in optimizing running mechanics.

Key Takeaways:

→ Proper form and biomechanics are essential for efficient barefoot running.

→ Activating key muscles through proper posture can enhance running efficiency and prevent injury.

→ Maintaining correct posture and core engagement is crucial for running efficiently and maintaining overall health.

→ Activating the gluteus medius muscle is key for maintaining hip level and preventing movement inefficiencies.

→ An efficient leg swing with correct knee bending can significantly enhance running performance.

Samuel Stow is the owner and founder of Pop! Running and the movement expert behind The Functional Step, a powerful technique designed to improve biomechanics, efficiency, and reduce injury risk through a more conscious, connected approach to walking and running. As a world-record holding ultramarathoner and author of ‘Pop! Running: Engineering Flow State’, Sam combines movement education, breathwork, and mindfulness to help people find ease and efficiency in their movement patterns.

What makes Sam’s approach unique is his focus on the integration of physical awareness, mental presence, and mindful movement. Through Pop! Running, he and his team have helped thousands of athletes globally achieve their goals, from beginners to international-level runners. His innovative courses and programs help athletes move better, breathe better, and think better – creating sustainable, enjoyable movement practices that enhance both performance and wellbeing.

Sam’s method has helped thousands of people transform their relationship with movement, from professional athletes to seniors rediscovering the joy of pain-free walking. His upcoming book ‘Pop! Running: Engineering Flow State’ explores the powerful connection between movement, breathing, and mindset, offering readers a comprehensive approach to achieving flow in their running practice.

Connect With Samuel:

Pop Running!

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Website

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Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

You know, getting stronger is something we pretty much all want to do, whether we’re running or just in our daily life. But what if there’s something you need to do before you go to the gym, before you try to get strong that if you don’t do, could, well, make all that frankly a waste of time or worse? We’re going to find out about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, typically starting feet first. You know, those things at the bottom of your legs. And. And here on the podcast, we break down the mythology, the propaganda. Sometimes they’re flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, do yoga, CrossFit play. I mean, whatever you’d like to do and to do it enjoyably and effectively and efficiently. Wait, did I say enjoyably? Trick question. I always say that one first. Because, look, if you’re not enjoying it, you’re not going to keep it up anyway. So you may as well find something you like. And we’re going to help you try and do that today. I am Steven Sashen, co founder and chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes, and we call this the Movement Movement. Because we, including you, no big deal. I’ll tell you how a second. We are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do, not getting in the way and causing problems. So how do we do that? Well, it’s really simple. If you want, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com and you’ll find all the previous episodes, the ways you can find us on social. You can get the podcast wherever you’re currently getting it or anywhere else and basically, you know, give us a review, give us a thumbs up, give us five stars, give us a like or, you know, hit the bell icon on YouTube. You know the drill. If you want to be part of the Trib, just subscribe. That’s what gets the word out. So that all said, let’s get started. Samuel Snow. God, I can’t even talk. Samuel Stowe. This is because I have two friends who are sss other than me. We’re both sss, but they’re both snows. And so it was in my brain. Samuel, welcome. Tell people who you are and what you’re doing here.

Samuel Stow

Hi. Thanks, Steve. I’m excited to be here. I’ve been a long time follower of you. And yeah, I’m Sam. I am a runner Ultra Runner in particular. And my passion is helping people to move well. And the reason I’m here is I really want to help spread the word and the message that we can learn to move better and that that should be our priority before we do anything else.

Steven Sashen

And from your accent, people can obviously tell you’re from Texas. Did I get Texas right?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s Australia, it’s near France.

Steven Sashen

On a globe. On a globe it is. I actually had to say that to someone. I was in California for the first time. I’m in an elevator with a woman from California and she said, where are you from? I said, I’m from Washington D.C. and she said, isn’t that New York? And I said on a globe. So, so, so, so first of all, let’s back up to the ultra runner thing since that is the opposite of my life. I mean, I run the 100 meters outdoor, 60 meters indoor. So were you always an ultra kind of guy or how’d you get into ultra?

Samuel Stow

It’s been a long journey. I’ve been doing.

Steven Sashen

Hold on, pun intended.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah. You get a lot of puns with running. It’s quite funny. Yeah. I’ve been doing endurance racing of various forms for over 20 years and I think that the trip, the switch to ultra running happened when my first kid was born and when he was six months old started crawling. I realized didn’t have the time to cycle and do all the other training that I was doing. So I decided to just focus on running because it was a bit more time efficient.

Steven Sashen

I’m so glad you didn’t say what was in my head, which was once my kid was born, I was trying to figure out how could I get as far away as fast as humanly possible. So it’s, it’s actually, it’s like an old Ray Romano joke about I have three kids. So it’s good to be here, it’s good to be anywhere because I have three kids. How old’s your child now?

Samuel Stow

So I have three, my oldest is nine and a seven year old and a four year old.

Steven Sashen

And so the running stuck, even though maybe you have a bit more time. And then how did you. Then where was the process of starting to investigate how running works, for lack of a better term, and then putting together what you’re doing to teach people, which we will talk about in a moment. But I’m just curious how people get to where they got.

Samuel Stow

I guess it started at the beginning, you know, when I was at university doing triathlon. I actually Did a thesis in my final year. I did aerospace engineering, and I studied the biomechanics of cycling and modeling track performance on a bike. And so I always had this kind of analytical brain when it comes to sport. And, yeah, when I. It didn’t click initially with running. It took me about four years. So 2009, I found Chi running. You’ve probably heard of that, right?

Steven Sashen

Absolutely. Danny. Danny Dreyer and his wife Catherine. And my wife and I go back before Xero shoes and back before G running.

Samuel Stow

Yeah. Wow. Awesome. Yeah. And I got a lot out of chi running, and it made me a lot faster. And so I basically stuck with that until about 2017. And then that’s when I started doing ultra running, and I started to get really tired hips, in particular, my hip flexors. And I was like, I haven’t figured this out yet. You know? And then sort of a little bit back before that, when I read Born to Run, which I ran 2013, I read it and I started doing barefoot running. I got minimal shoes, I got some ultras, you know, the. The flat shoes. Um, and that sort of stuck with me just like on and off for a while. And they’re 2018, I really went nuts with barefoot running. And I found Keith Bateman, who I know, you know, and started doing his stuff. And he. He kind of really helped me by looking at me and saying, no, you’re not doing what. What you should be doing. And that’s when I kind of went, oh, okay. So it took me a little bit. You know, 2019 was when it finally clicked.

Steven Sashen

Well, it’s interesting you say that, because one of the things that I’ve noticed is that human beings in general have, well, two things working against them. One, mediocre proprioceptive skills, mediocre skills at knowing where their body is, what they’re actually doing. And the other is we’re kind of wired to get into a movement pattern and then habituate to it and stick with it. So you put those two things together, and when someone is trying to switch from the form that you adopt when you have a. Almost any shoe, frankly, but especially a big, thick, you know, padded normal shoe or even a flat shoe that still has a bunch of padding, people often don’t know what they’re doing or think they know what they’re doing and are doing something very different. I’ve had people send me videos where they swear to me they’re not over striding and heel striking. And then I show them on the video that they sent me of them and I show that their foot is landing way in front of their center of mass, way in front of their knee. And I’ve literally had people say to me while looking at the video that they sent to me of them say, yeah, but I don’t do that. It’s like it’s you, you sent the video. So do you remember, do you remember what Keith noticed that then kind of changed things for you?

Samuel Stow

Well, he has a very specific way of looking at people. And you know, I think it’s primarily around like your, your knee, the timing of the movements of your knees and respect to like, you can see whether someone’s actually getting a good hip extension or whether they’re kind of swinging their legs, you know, and that’s the sort of like key distinction between whether you’re using the front of your body to move you forward or you’re using the back of your body.

Steven Sashen

Do you know, this is, it’s so interesting. People don’t, unless you are a high performance athlete, people don’t really think about what we refer to as front side mechanics and backside mechanics. You know, what’s happening in front of your body, what’s happening behind your body. And even then I’ve noticed it’s often misunderstood because people think that like I was literally talking about this this morning as I was racing someone in our warehouse. We did a track workout in the warehouse and I was commenting how. Well, it’s not as impressive as it sounds. We’re literally just running on the rather dirty floor. Not dirty dirty, but dusty floor. And so when we actually decided to race, I kind of slipped out of the, on my first step because I had so much dust on the bottom of my shoes. Regardless, I was saying, you know what people don’t understand when they think about frontside mechanics. Like, you go to a high school track meet and you hear the parents yelling to the sprinter, kids, get your knees up. It’s like, whoa, whoa. The only way you get your knees up is what’s happening from the backside mechanics. Makes the knees go where you think they should go. And if you’re yelling these up, it’s already too late. They’re not doing that. So people don’t understand that division typically. And I guess we’re going to be talking about that and what the important thing is to play with that. So for you, it’s interesting you came to this basically. I mean, there was a bit of a, hey, this doesn’t feel great. But it sounds like more from the how do I optimize performance standpoint than The. I’ve got an injury or I’ve got a. Whatever. It’s like, what can I do better?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s just the way I work is I’ve always wanted to be optimal, you know, and because I come from. I started in multi sport and, you know, like, nobody knows how to swim. And just off the bat, you know. Yeah, you throw someone in a pool, they’re gonna drown unless you give them a lesson. Do you know what I mean? And so, you know, as a triathlete and a multi sport athlete, I had to learn technique for swimming. And then, you know, with cycling, there are techniques to it to a degree. And then obviously I, I also did kayaking and I had to learn how to kayak well. And, and obviously. So then I also had the chi running. I was like, oh, there’s a way of running. And I was fascinated when I read Born to Run about the whole barefoot thing. And I. Yeah, after a while, obviously it took a while, but I realized that a lot of people can run barefoot but still run poorly from an efficiency perspective. And so.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, yeah, no, it is interesting. I mean, I’ve similarly talked to people who. Well, I don’t think I’m throwing anyone under the bus because I’m not mentioning any names, but they think of themselves as accomplished barefoot runners. But what they’ve figured out how to do is run barefoot without having problems per se, but certainly not effective or efficiently. Like, I’ve seen people, you know, reach their foot way out in front of them and kind of catch the ground and pull it underneath them so they’re not putting too much force on their feet, for example, but they are still not. I mean, it’s like Groucho marks walking fast rather than running. And. And they’re the ones who will proudly talk about all the half marathons they’ve completed and say they’re, you know, excellent barefoot runners. And when anyone who understands proper biomechanics tries to say something, you know, that’s what they’ll fall back on and get very upset when you accuse them of not being as. Or actually, it’s funny, they. They seem to be more attached to I’m doing it fine than learning how to do it better, which is again, a very human thing. We think that we’re, we’re all doing great. We don’t like, you know, anyone tell us, telling us we’re. We could be better. So which brings us to you figured this thing, you started putting all these things together for yourself and then you started teaching. How did how did that evolve? And then let’s jump into, you know, what do you want to talk about for letting people know what I teased at the beginning about if you’re trying to get stronger and so we can talk about what needs to get stronger and then the how part and, or in whatever order you prefer the how and what people are doing out of whack or out of order to make that effect efficient and effective.

Samuel Stow

So what’s the first part of your question?

Steven Sashen

Sorry, I don’t know. I got lost by the middle of it. If I can’t follow it, I don’t expect anyone else to. So you started, so, so when did you, after you kind of figured this out, what was the transition for you just to decide I want to start teaching this because that in and of itself, you know, is a little unusual for most human beings to do.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, that’s true. I, I’m a sharer. Like I really, that’s what I like to do. I don’t keep things to myself. I like to be able to share, share what I learn. And I was living in Silicon Valley, in Mountain View at the time when I was doing all of this. And I had a really good coach, Megan Roach, who’s quite well known in the ultra running community. And I also worked at Google. And so basically I was in a very good place because one of the things at Google is there’s obviously thousands of people, you know, and there’s quite a big running community and there’s also a big, there’s gyms all over the place and they had this program called Googler to Googler. And so basically you, any Googler can teach any other Googler anything they want as long as there’s someone that’s interested to do it. So I basically went to the G Fit people and said I want to teach running. And they’re like, cool. So I basically just put up some flyers and started doing it because it’s very not common to even start thinking about how you run. You know, more often than not, if you speak to someone about have you thought about how you run? They’re like, what are you talking about? You know?

Steven Sashen

Yeah, no, it really is amazing. People do think that while you just run, it is so funny that for almost every other activity, including the ones you already mentioned, people know there’s a way to do it well or better that they probably don’t know. But for running, since we kind of all grew up doing it in some way, even though, you know, not everyone was the fastest or the handle the Longest runs or whatever. Um, it’s kind of like everyone thinks they can write because they had to, you know, write essays in school or book reports, like. No, no, very different thing. So you started. So you’re. You were teaching the Google peeps and I imagine, you know, I mean, people in that world are early adopters to begin with, so I, I can see how that would have.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, your shoes were very popular there. I saw a lot of people wearing Prios in the gym and different things like that.

Steven Sashen

So, man, I got to somehow take advantage of that. Yeah. So, and so talk to me then about, since we teased this at the beginning, where strength comes into what you were teaching. I mean, if you want to give like the highlights of what you’re teaching. But since we teased it with strength at some point. Let’s land on that one.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, well, it took a while. You know, I came to it as a runner. I had done a personal training certification before I left the Australia for the us but that was a previous career before I started doing software engineering. So. And, but then I didn’t really get detailed into sort of like physiology and anatomy and like biomechanics from a muscular perspective until I came back to Australia. But I understood like how we were supposed to move sort of from a biomechanical perspective. I just didn’t have the depth of knowledge but that I currently have with muscles and so on. So I didn’t necessarily have that perspective then, but I was still going, you know, in similar way to like chi running. Okay, this is how you’re going to hold yourself. This is where you’re focusing your effort. Try and feel your bum, basically your glutes and all that. Yeah, I think. I’m not sure if I answered the question there.

Steven Sashen

No, that’s good. And so I’m. I’m assuming. Actually, I do know this, but I’ll say that I’m assuming you discovered something that I’ve seen often, which is for whatever reason, and there’s debates about this, I have seen so many people who, Whose glutes just don’t work, they can’t. If you ask them to flex their glutes, there, there’s nothing happening. I mean, I don’t know about you, but what I’ve done, when I, when I do this in the appropriate setting, or some might say the inappropriate setting, I will do one of two things. I’ll like, you know, poke my finger in someone’s glute and say squeeze until that’s, you know, getting pushed out, which they can’t do. And that’ll say, just to give you a hint, you know, do that to me and see what you feel. And they’re like, oh, that’s. Oh, that’s very different. So. So what’s your technique for having people recognize that their glutes are not doing what they’re supposed to do?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, so this was the last thing to twig for me. You know, I was able to teach people all the mechanics and everything, but as I said, it didn’t. It wasn’t until I went real deeper into the sort of musculature and so on that I realized how. How little glute function a lot of people have. And so. But now I have a process to really, you know, fix that. So one of the things that I start with is I have, like, the glute activation program. And I actually taught my dad recently. He’s 71, and he. I know this is an interesting story, actually. So he has very poor, or has had historically very poor posture and like, no glute awareness. And so. But he’s a sailor, and he had a boat, and he was trying to push this boat, which is a yacht, so it’s quite heavy, but it was on land. And. And as he was trying to push it, he tore his calf muscle because he was trying to push from his calves. And so after that happened, because he loves hiking, he’s a very active person, I said, okay, we’ve got to fix you. You’re. You can’t be running around trying to push through your calf all the time. And he. Yeah, when I started testing him with squats and things, he’s like, I cannot feel anything. So that’s how I came up with the program to help him activate through his bum. And then we. We actually took. We did that and didn’t actually take that long, surprisingly, only took about a week. And then after that, he was able to do the other exercises, and now he can walk with a lot more power and he’s got much better posture. And I have the videos on my website.

Steven Sashen

I love it. Well, so if people are listening slash watching to this, and they want to check and see if they’re actually using or activating their glutes, what would you recommend they try to find that out?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, so I actually talk about this. I’ve got an ebook, and there’s a free version, and then there’s a longer version, which is only $5 on my website. But basically there’s a test in there, and it’s a glute activation pattern. First well, actually, probably the simpler version is, let’s say you’re just standing up, you know, straight, clench your bum cheeks. Right. Everyone mostly can do that. Right. Everyone can clench their bum. Right. So that’s great. Now the next test is, can you lift one leg off the ground slightly and clench just one bum? And the one. The thing that I find often is most a lot of people can’t.

Steven Sashen

Wait, which one? So if you’re lifting your left foot.

Samuel Stow

One that’s on the ground.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, one that’s on the ground. You’re squeezing that one. Got it?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s called glute dissociation. Like left. Right. I’m sure you can do, you know, but that’s a really basic one. And then, yeah, obviously there’s so many different movement tests you can do, but, yeah, I’ve seen. I’ve heard people, for example, they’re trying to do, for example, you know how. I don’t know if you’ve seen them, but there’s this glute guy, and he’s got all the girls doing these hip thrusts with barbell on their Breckenriers. Probably. Yeah. And. And so one of my clients says she was doing a barbell hip thrust and she was getting, like, pain in her calves. And I’m like, ah, okay. Yeah, because you’re not even using your glutes. It’s like you’re trying to push the barbell up through your calves because your glutes don’t work. You know, so it’s really interesting. That’s what I’m kind of talking about is, like, these dysfunctions that people are not necessarily 100% aware of, that we need to sort of re. Resolve before you can actually do effective exercises.

Steven Sashen

All right, we’re going to. We’re going to drill into that in a little bit, but I want to, before we get there, so talk just about, you know, because we mentioned frontside backside mechanics. So let’s loop that back in to the relevance for being able to use your glutes properly and running.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, I. I think that a big piece that I’m always illustrating when I talk to people I’m helping with the running perspective, is that distance runners are not sprinters, you know, and so there’s a very big distinction between, like, being efficient over a long distance and being fast and powerful. And I think because, you know, so many people seem to look at sprinters and think that’s the model of efficient running form, but then, you know, because we have very little posterior chain awareness and core awareness as well. Generally, then the thing that we can most easily do is the front. Right. So we can put our arms up, we can put our knees up, and you can, we can do everything that, that looks like that’s what the sprinters do, but we kind of neglect the back. But to be honest, as a distance runner, you know, I have learned from experience of running hundreds of kilometers, you know, in one go, that the, the most efficient way to run any further than say, a couple of kilometers is not using the front, it’s using the back. Because, and I talk about this in my books, basically, we have two advantages. One is gravity, because if you land and then you’re pushing from your bum, you actually get an elastic recoil effect. So you, you land, it loads up the spring and then you push from the posterior which recoils. So you get a lot more efficiency than if you’re just lifting your feet, you know, because then you’re just removing the spring aspect.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, this is one of those things that I see in my neighborhood. There’s a lot of good runners, but there’s a variation on that where they’re wearing big, thick high heeled shoes and they, even with the high heeled shoes, they’re not, their heel is not coming near the ground. And so they’re not utilizing their Achilles, the biggest spring, literal spring that we’ve got, let alone, you know, what they could get from loading and unloading the glutes. It’s really. And of course I’m not going to stop and tell them that I don’t want to get punched while I’m walking. So again, so let’s, let’s again dive into that a little more. So can you, what more can you say? Just about, oh boy, what someone’s going to look for in their own body or look for if they’re watching a video of themselves to see if they are doing what you just described or not.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, so I don’t typically look at this in the way, you know, you see a lot of people offering like form analysis. Right. Running form analysis. And, and it can be helpful. But I personally prefer to talk to people about how they’re feeling and what they’re feeling in their body because that’s more sustainable, you know, like coming up with corrections and trying to do a correction on yourself is much harder than understanding what it’s supposed to feel like and then just maintaining that feeling. And. Yeah, so generally, you know, I start with postural awareness, so improving your posture generally. So understanding how to hold yourself in a straight Posture, usually using a wall is a really great way to do it, you know, so having your shoulders open, your head up, you’re not looking up like this or down like this. You keep your head straight and then you tuck your ribs down a little bit, you know, because some people hyperextend through their back. So the ribs down a little bit and then you tense your belly muscles and then you kind of that level with your hips and you should feel your bum turning on and then that’s your ideal kind of like neutral posture, you know. And that can feel quite foreign to a lot of people because they’re not used to holding themselves in that position. And so you need to find that position in order to be able to use that when you’re running. So that’s my step one, you know.

Steven Sashen

And what are the other feeling, tone things that you’re asking people to look for or that you’re listening for when they describe what they’re, what they’re doing or not doing?

Samuel Stow

Well, yeah. Now when I talk to a runner and finding out like what problems they’re having, I’m like, well, which muscles get the sorest? You know, when you do hard runs, you know, whether it’s a race or a long run or an effort or workout, and usually it points to what the thing that they’re doing wrong is, you know, like if they get sore lower back and sore hamstrings, it means that their, their core isn’t working, you know, and if they get sore cars or sore lower legs, it means they’re overusing their calf muscles and they’re doing what you said, where their heels not touching the ground and there’s, you know, usually there’s, there’s an indicator. It’s like, okay, I mean, if their quads are getting sore, it’s more often than not they’re over striding, you know, so you kind of go, okay, well, based on what you just told me, this is what we’re going to focus on. But at the same time, it always comes back to having good posture, getting your glutes on, and actually getting that efficient movement pattern, like wired in and starting at a really low level, like really low intensity baseline, just so you can understand it, because it’s like, you know, you don’t start driving in a race car. You know, you want to start in something very controlled and sustainable. So you want to start slow and then build up once you become competent.

Steven Sashen

So you’re, you’re now describing my undergraduate research at Duke on cognitive aspects of motor skill acquisition. So I made this whole map and think about trying to learn to tap dance, because that’s what I studied. And you know, when you first try some really simple thing like a shuffle, literally you’re kind of kicking your foot out. You. You scrap. Well, you tap your foot on the ground as it moves out, you tap it on the way back. It sounds really simple. And then you try and do it like 30 times in a row and. And you’ll have no rhythm and you’ll miss half of them. It’s like you’re going to feel like a moron because it seems so simple. So then you slow it down until it’s just like, like super slow motion. And over time, as your brain starts to understand that movement pattern, it becomes more ingrained until it’s like super fast. And you can’t even. You can’t not do it right because it’s just, it’s way back in your brain. So this is a brilliant thing. And most people, they’ll want to just go out and do it too much to try it instead of getting the feeling first slow and small and then building up, look, this is a thing even, especially as a sprinter, you can work on form things, but once you’re going full speed, you can’t think about any of that. That’s like, it’s turned off anything that you have control over and so actually have a whole theory on how to train Sprinting based on what we just talked about, costs about 100 grand to make it happen. We’ll find out someday. But. But, you know, you have the ability to do that. So for you, what does slow and small look like? If you’re going to tell someone you want to try this thing and they’re going to dive into, you know, your book at some point, I hope. But, you know, because one person, the number of times someone has said to me, I decided to start small, I just went and did 10 miles. Like, oh, God. Yeah. So. So what does that sound like for you?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, well, the clue is in the little. Was it that one icon on my. So basically that’s what I’ve come up with, is to help people go, okay, can you do one step right? And it’s. That’s, you know, firstly, you got to have glute function, you know, and that’s step zero is glute function. So sometimes that might take a week or two to people to get that, and they don’t necessarily even know that they don’t have it. But, you know, you have to become aware of that first. And then the next one is. Is the, you know, pun intended. The next step is the step. Right. And that basically all it is, is a. Is a reverse lunge. But, you know, you make sure you. When you’re doing a reverse lunge, that you’re actually doing it with your core engaged and you can feel your glute on etc, right? And then from there, you kind of totally ignore the fact that you have a traveling leg, you know, so basically, you’re trying to get your traveling leg to move without using it. Because the grounded leg, which is the. Initially, the front leg, when you’re in that reverse lunge position, should be driving from your hip, from your glute, and you use the. The momentum from driving there, leaning forward to get your traveling leg to come forward. So you’re actually completely switching off the front side aspect.

Steven Sashen

Have you watched my video about walking?

Samuel Stow

No.

Steven Sashen

So this is exactly what I talk about for walking. And then I’ll give you this one that’s kind of fun. I figured out a whack, an extreme version of this for going uphill. And then after doing that for, like, a year, I figured out it works downhill, too. So imagine for the fun of it, we’re walking up a hill. And so you’ve got your right leg planted, and your left leg is trailing, and you turn to your left. So you’re literally pivoting from your. So you’re just twisting slightly to the left. So you’re stretching that right hip flexor. Okay?

Samuel Stow

Yes.

Steven Sashen

And then as you twist back to the right, if you do that, it will kind of release the left hip flexor, which is. Wait, I got to do it. Hold on. Yeah, so I’ve stretched that, right? Yeah. And then as you turn. As you then turn back to the right, it can pull. So, like. All right, be on your right foot, turn to the left. Right. Now as you turn back to the right, if you’re going up a hill, it’ll. It’ll swing that left leg forward just enough.

Samuel Stow

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Steven Sashen

So it plants it, you know, slightly in front of you, but basically under your center of mass, up the hill slightly, and then you just reverse it. So you’re literally just twisting your way uphill.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s. That’s, like, you know, you got to build in steps, but absolutely, like, the rotational side of things is really important. And like. Like, there are so many different systems of, like, spring kind of type mechanisms in our body that we can actually harness a lot of them. You know, like, there’s. As you Fully aware. There’s probably like three different, like spring arches in your foot, right? And then you’ve got like, obviously your whole body when you’re talking about your using your glutes and everything, that’s a spring, like in the normal up and down sense. But then you’ve also got, you know, like, you might have heard of David Weck talking about the spinal engine, which is the rotational. So there’s actually a rotational spring as well. So you can bring all of these in together. And that’s what I’ve been implementing myself in this year and seen ridiculous results.

Steven Sashen

I love it. Yeah. I’m not suggesting that people run the way I just described walking uphill. And again, you do that same thing going downhill and you don’t end up putting on the brakes by putting your foot way out in front of you when you do it. It’s really weird. It sounds crazy, but it’s a fun thing. So I love what you’re describing is, I mean, that functional step is just a brilliant way of making sure that you’ve got that first part correct. And then. Okay, so after someone can do a step, what’s the next step?

Samuel Stow

I like to call it like mindful walking or, you know, mindful steps. You know, so actually just, you know, learning to walk in the way that I taught my dad, you know, which is actually using good posture and good glute activation and propelling yourself efficiently and. Because the good thing, and this is why it’s, you know, it seems to me like just like obvious is that when you cannot actually use your glutes if your posture is bad, so it kind of enforces good posture because you have to have an upright posture, you have to have your core engaged in order for this whole thing to work. So it means that you’re walking around with good posture. And I’ve had clients tell me if like I’ve tried physio, I’ve had massage, I’ve done all these different corrective exercises to fix my posture and nothing worked. And then I just worked with you and like after like four, six weeks, like, everything’s better. Do you know what I mean? Because they’re just moving and like it’s self reinforcing. Does that make sense?

Steven Sashen

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. Well, actually, I have to back up because I misrepresented my walking video where the. The analogy and the analogy or metaphor. Analogy. Anyway, the example that I give, it’s like thinking, thinking about walking, like ice skating or speed skating in reverse in that, in that you’ve Got a planted foot. That’s the one that’s actually driving backwards versus in speed skating, the planet foot is actually not going. And it’s the foot that’s the. The back foot is pushing you forward. But it’s a similar idea. Just which foot is planted is upside down from skating. So like leave the trailing leg from. Leave the trailing leg alone. If you’re. If your stance leg can push backwards similar to what you’re talking about, then you don’t have to do anything with that back leg. It will naturally end up landing basically under your center of mass, setting you up to extend that hip perfectly. So I’m just using a speed skating metaphor because I don’t know why, because that’s what. But I love the way you map that out. And I think. And I did notice in something that you wrote that I really liked, I would argue that. And if Danny or Chi running people listen to this, they might get upset with me. This idea about gravity propelling you forward. Gravity just pulls things down. It definitely. It can help with having to do something to propel you forward because otherwise you will just fall down. But gravity doesn’t pull you forward, it pulls you down. And you have corrected that error in physics, I would argue.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah. I think like the, the notion that you want to lean forward to move forward makes complete sense. The. The thing that, you know, really helps is when you actually think about your body being a spring so that when you fall forward, your body lands and coils up like a spring and then you uncoil. And the uncoiling. You know, this is all David Wex style talk because he’s very much about the coils and so on, but it’s the uncoiling, which is, you know, basically extending, you know, that extension aspect. That’s where you. You’re resisting gravity, but that’s what creates the propulsion.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. Here’s a. This is a re. Way in the weeds question that some people will be interested in, other people will have no interest in it whatsoever. Perhaps. When I was in the lab with Dr. Bill Danz, he used to be head of biomechanics for US Olympic Committee and had a great lab out in western Colorado at a university. There’s. He identified something in me that he said I’ve identified in almost all runners that’s related to what we’re talking about. He said their gluten medias is basically super weak or turned off. Maximus can be fine. Medias can not fine. Any thoughts about that? And we might have to explain what the two are for people who are not hip to.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, so the glute mean. Sorry. Yeah, so the glute manius is the one that’s responsible for trying to keep your knee out. Right. It keeps your hip like. Well, not just your knee out, but it keeps your hip level and keeps it from dropping. Because if your glute medius is weak, it’s on the outside of your hip, then your, your whole hip can drop because you kind of collapse in that hip and then your knee will collapse in and you’ll over pronate and all kinds of problems happen. Right. So yes, you definitely need that muscle to activate in order to keep your hip level and your knee from collapsing in, which is going to help you be more efficient.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, you just remind me of something. And so. Well, actually before I jump into that. So is there anything specific that you’re working on? Again, the, the thing we tease people with is you’ve got to, you know, do something before you work on getting strong. And if they haven’t put two and two together, it’s this alignment and getting proper posture and using your body correctly. Is there anything that is different when you’re. If you’re paying attention to glute medius?

Samuel Stow

I think yeah. So a lot of the focus in running is often on the sort of forward and back side of things.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Samuel Stow

Where you know, if you actually completely ignore the forward and back side of things and just think about leaning forward and using gravity to move you forward, the, the side to side and the rotational things are way more important because that’s where you can actually generate all the power and stability and so on. And so. Yeah, so you focusing interestingly, like what you’re saying about the speed skater, that side to side aspect is what will activate those muscles. So you’re thinking about the side to side movement more than the forward and back movement and that will actually help you get that activation.

Steven Sashen

Interesting. I was. You reminded me of something I saw about a year or so ago. I was on one of the trails outside our house and there was a woman who, as she’s running towards me, I see that her left leg looked perfect, looked totally great. Her right leg was like way internally rotated, her knee was like, you know, way pointing. You know, if you imagine face of a clock, her left leg was pointing at 12 o’ clock, her right leg was pointing at like 10 o’ clock. And as she passed me, she was, she was, you know, a little overweight and she had a very full glute on the left side and, and on the right side, practically none. I’d never seen anything like it. I don’t know if she had an accident or whatever, but it was one of the most interesting things I’d ever seen because normally there’s not something that extreme that’s painting the picture of hey, here’s what’s going on. It was totally fascinating. So, all right, we figured out the first step, then we get now next steps. So the functional step is over your left shoulder, over your right shoulder it says Pop Running. I have a sneaking suspicion we’re transitioning to that part of where what’s over your.

Samuel Stow

If you say so.

Steven Sashen

I mean I could be wrong.

Samuel Stow

No, no, no. Yeah. So Pop Running is, is my company and that’s what I kind of started creating. You know, I came, I created it when I was in America and I actually called it Pop Running Form. But then I, when I came back to Australia, I just abbreviated to pot running because it’s catchier and more all encompassing. And yeah, it’s over time with all my ultra running escapades and the teachings and various things, it’s kind of become a philosophy I think that I kind of have, which is something that I’ve learned from, you know, probably running 100 kilometer, 100 mile runs, 24 hour runs, things like that, that trying to be efficient but also just trying to kind of go easily, you know, and not try and force things. That’s kind of the, where that all ends up.

Steven Sashen

Well for me without knowing it just had that feeling for me of like when you are using these sort of built in springs in your body, that’s kind of the feeling of it and similar. I’ll never forget when I got back into sprinting, a guy who was a very good Division 1 college sprinter. I think he probably weighed about 2:10 at the time. Now he weighs about 260 and he’s still fast because he’s really efficient but, and you know, and is having a hard time dropping weight. But he said to me, you know, sometimes when it just feels like you’re just flying, your feet are barely touching the ground. And I went no. But as I, as I, my form changed and I want to actually back up to what we talked about at front and backside mechanics a little more which basically as my front side mechanics got better because my backside mechanics got better. And I’ll tell you how in a moment now it does feel like that now at full speed it does feel like as long as I’m maintaining maximum velocity it does feeling like, feel like I’m just Barely touching the ground. And I’m going to give credit to the person who gave me this cue that you might get a kick out of this guy named Doug Adams. He has a company called Run DNA. They do gate analysis and retraining. And I think I’ve had Doug on the podcast and the cue that he likes to give people and he gave me, I don’t even know if he gave it to me because he certainly hadn’t analyzed my running. I think I just overheard it maybe or made some comment about it. And the cue was, and he does with people on a treadmill, if they’re, especially if they’re over striding, he’ll stand in front of them and he’ll say, I want you to imagine that as your foot is coming off the ground, you’re going to knee a soccer ball towards me. And it’s a very interesting cue because many people will confuse that with knees up. But the only way you can knee a soccer ball towards someone when you’re running is by getting your foot in just the right spot when it hits the ground and, and coming off the ground in just the right way. It basically corrects backside mechanic problems. And when I tried that, I went from working harder to like, holy crap, I’m just popping off the ground and you know, like, pop. Running, it literally just feels like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And, and when I look at video for sprinters, the front side mechanics are more, are, are kind of more obvious than backside mechanics, but the backside, because the backside mechanics are more, more aggressive, frankly, is the best way that I can put it than, than for distance runners. But anyway, it was a very interesting thing to see that relationship. But like the joke is it, it’s my backside mechanics having gotten better from that weird cue that you think is about your front side mechanics. And it’s just more visible for sprinting in front side because the amount of force you’re putting into the ground, the reflects of the, the Newtonian response of putting hitting your foot in the ground at the right angle is that it does this knee up thing in the front. You’re not lifting it. It’s just that’s where it goes when your backside mechanics are more efficient. Anyway, that’s my sprinting tangential rant. Let’s back up again, pun intended to talking about frontside backside mechanics and what that, what that looks like before and after people activate their glutes and start doing what you’ve been describing.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, well, I think, you know, it’s interesting because on my one of My pages on my website, I’ve got the version of my dad before and after. And if you imagine like an old man walking, right, they’re very.

Steven Sashen

Pause for one second. Your dad’s only seven years older than me, so drop this.

Samuel Stow

I’m not talking about my dad specifically. I’m just talking because if you go, you know, you go far enough to the oldest version, that’s when it becomes the most obvious, the most extreme. Right. But basically they’re very hunched forward, very scooped over, you know, and you can imagine like the zimmer frame style thing where they have to hold onto a frame because if they don’t, they’re going to fall forward and. And then they’re just like picking each foot up and shuffling forward in front of them. Right? That’s the extreme version. Like, so if, if you take a. Take it back 30 to 40 years to someone who’s like middle aged, but they’re still slightly stooped forward and they still have no core activation and no glute awareness, then they’re just going to be swinging their legs in front of them, you know, in order to move forward. And you know, you could obviously make that better by driving the knees up to get your knees a bit higher, but it’s still going to be all front focused. Do you know?

Steven Sashen

Well, I’m going to ask you, because I’m seeing something that’s also all in front of you, but differently when people are, especially if they’re in a higher heeled shoe and that’s making them having to lean back so they’re. Their hips are a little forward. It’s a similar thing. I’m seeing people like just, they’re all they can do is get their feet in front of them because they don’t have the ability or even the room for hip extension. So it’s like. Yeah. Variation on a theme. Doing the same effect for a slightly different reason.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing. Like it’s quite common in pregnant women, for example, because they’ve got this big weight on the front of their stomach. So they kind of lean back.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Samuel Stow

And then hips, instead of their hips being forward, like anteriorly tilted, which is a lot of people’s challenge, they actually become posteriorly tilted so that their glutes get tight and their hip flexors that get extended and stretched, but it, you know, they still have the same challenge where they can’t effectively activate their glutes.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So we have these two situations and I would, without, I would contend that most people, for Various reasons are in that second one where they don’t have any hip extension because there’s nowhere for it to go with their. With when they. When they have posterior tilt. When basically, if you. For people who don’t know what that is, just imagine standing up and just, you know, just sticking your hips forward. Sticking. I mean, just. I don’t know how to describe it any better. Do you have a better way of describing anterior.

Samuel Stow

It’s kind of like, you know, I think some women think about themselves having a flat bum.

Steven Sashen

Oh, yeah.

Samuel Stow

They have no butt.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Get rid of your butt by shoving your hips forward. That’s. That’s. Yeah. That means there’s just nowhere for your feet to go other than in front of you.

Samuel Stow

And so.

Steven Sashen

And are you seeing then that same kind of thing when people are running where there’s just nothing happening behind them because of this alignment and. And.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, well, it’s either of those things. You know, some people when they’re running, they look like they’re leaning backwards and they’re swinging their legs out in front of them. But then other people hunch forward and they’re swinging their legs out underneath them, but their core is not working. So they’ve got like the opposite. They’ve got a duck bump. Yeah, they are poking out, you know.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, I’ve seen that people who’ve learned or heard the phrase run tall, where they think they just need to get their head up towards the sky. That often turns into leaning backwards. Yeah, you know, that same problem. And so, okay, so as we’re then activating the glutes using these spring things, you know, what does the evolution of that look like? What is it? How does it look different for people to try to imagine that?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, I think it’s just like it, you know, it’s basically like thinking about, you know, obviously the functional step side of things where you’re kind of like, you’re trying to propel yourself forward by leaning into it, but pushing and extending through your hips, and then all you’re going to do is get your. Bend your knee. You know, that’s the key point about what you were talking about when kneeing a soccer ball. It’s when we run, we want to bend our knee as it swings through. Because if you think about your elbows, if it’s like arm swing, so if you keep your elbows bent like this, then your arms are going to swing quickly, whereas if your leg elbow is extended, your arm’s going to swing slowly because you’ve got a longer lead.

Steven Sashen

So for people listening, if you got like a 90 degree bend in your arm, you basically made the whole, the whole thing shorter, effectively. So it’s easier to swing because there’s not as much weight further out, which makes it harder to deal with.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, and so the same applies to your leg. You know, if you bend your knee, then all you’ve got as a swinging lever, I guess if you were going to call it that, is your femur rather than the lower leg, because then the lower leg is collapsed behind the knee rather than you having to swing like this big weight of your lower leg underneath your knee, which is what most people tend to do.

Steven Sashen

So, so pardon me if you can. I want to try and break that down for people who are trying to visualize it. So pardon me. I’ve also got the hiccups all of a sudden. So you’ve landed, I’m going to say you’ve landed on your right leg. You’re not worried about your trailing leg, which at this point, I mean, if you’re doing this properly, it’s not trailing very much. It’s really. That’s a whole different story. You are using these springs and propelling yourself forward with your right leg. So talk about just how and when that leg bends as it’s in the swing phase, as it’s coming through, and how that relates to these springs that we’ve been chatting about.

Samuel Stow

The left leg that’s traveling through. Is that what you’re talking about?

Steven Sashen

Yeah, sorry, sorry. Well, yeah, I was already a little further past that in my, my mind. So, yeah, let’s do it that way. You just hit your instance phase or your midst. So you’re. Let’s do it this way. Your right leg has just touched the ground. It’s not even, it’s just, you know, just first touch the ground. What’s happening with your left leg?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, well, I think that’s the key distinction. So, you know, so I have walking courses and running courses. And the key distinction between walking and running is you bend your knee. You know, if you want to walk, all you got to do is keep your leg fairly straight, swing it out in front of you, and then you kind of like touch down on your heel. You still push, but you can kind of roll through it. But that’s what people are often doing when they’re running. So they’re kind of just doing walking, but faster. And the difference is when you actually do it well, you bend the knee as it’s coming through. So then instead of you swinging your leg and landing your Heel out way in front of you. Your foot lands underneath the knee. So as you come through, it comes up and then comes back down and lands underneath your knee.

Steven Sashen

So I want to try and get people to picture like how much bend we’re talking about and how does that change over speed? Because again, I’m thinking running, I’m thinking about the people running in my neighborhood where many of them have learned that they’re trying to use it is going to sound ironic or upside down from what we’re describing. They want to use as little energy as possible. So they’re bending their. Again, your right leg is the one that’s the stance leg. It’s the one that touched the ground. Your left leg is swinging through. They’re bending it just enough so that their toes don’t scrape the ground. They’re bending it maybe a little higher so their toes are at sort of ankle level as it’s coming through. Toes are pointing towards the ground, you know, ankle levelish. What are you describing different from that?

Samuel Stow

I don’t know. I, I, I think, you know, I don’t like to make it too mechanical, you know, I like to make it more feeling oriented. I think that the analogy that you gave earlier on is a good one where you’re like kneeing a soccer ball. It’s just that you want the knee to lead rather than the foot, right? So ideally it’s just that you want the foot behind the knee when you’re running so that when you fall and land on the opposite, on the next foot that it is underneath and then you can immediately activate the spring and continue.

Steven Sashen

I think you just what you described. I want to slow this one down because that one gave me a chill because it’s really fun. So one of the cues that we like to give. I don’t know who we is in that sentence that I like to give and I know I’m not the only one. There we go. But I don’t have a we in mind. Is that when, so your right leg started out on the ground, your left leg swinging through. You’re going to be in the air at some point. When your left foot is the one that hits the ground, you the definition of over striding is that your ankle bone is in front of your knee. If you did a straight line down from your knee. If your ankle bone is in front of that, you’re over striding. If it’s behind that, you are not. And the only way you can actually activate that spring well is if it’s behind, under or behind that knee because then it’s starting to activate, like, right away. Instead of having to deal with excessive forces and wait for the. To get to the point where you’re using it, which by that point it’s. You’re not. You’ve lost that whole spring mechanism. Now you’re having to, like, reengage strength from the bottom up, which is completely inefficient. Did I get that?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah. And I think that the, you know, it all happens very quickly and it’s. You can’t really think about it too much, but what the resulting outcome is that you kind of end up with a natural midfoot landing. Do you know, it’s like some people try and focus on the midfoot landing or the, you know, forefoot landing or whatever, and like, that’s the outcome. It’s not the goal, you know, but if you can make a natural midfoot landing happen because your whole body is moving forward, you know, so your core, your, you know, your center of mass is moving forward as your knee is coming forward. And then you. As you come down and you land on your foot, it’s a midfoot landing, and your foot is very much close to underneath your knee. And then everything can just activate immediately and keep you traveling forward in the most efficient way.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it really is. What we’re doing is kind of like trying to describe the flavor of a cake or trying to analyze a joke. I mean, everything. It does all happen rather reflexively and quickly. But again, to what you’re saying, starting with the functional step, starting to, like, learn how to feel that slowly and deliberately. And the more you do that, the more it goes. Becomes more hindbrained and allows you to do it without having to think.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah. You can’t just make it happen by thinking, you know what?

Steven Sashen

Well, again, I will argue that you can with the device that I’m imagining building when I have a boatload of money and I can make the device.

Samuel Stow

Is it like one of those Elon Musk like, brain implant?

Steven Sashen

No. Interesting. No. But I’ll tease it this way and see if anyone figures it out. They can leave it in a comment. So, as a former all American gymnast, one of the things that you do, especially for very difficult twisting and flipping moves, is you give yourself more time. You’re able to slow it down and give yourself more time with a spotting belt, for example. I think there’s a way of doing something similar for running so that you have enough time to feel these things and build up the speed from really slow to faster and Faster and faster. And there’s another component to it where about getting the right kind of feedback in the right way. But the biggest thing is to be able to really feel something. If you don’t have those proprioceptive and sensory skills, you need to do it slow. How can you do that with running and then build up over time as.

Samuel Stow

You get more like reducing gravity? Go to space?

Steven Sashen

Kinda. Kinda. I mean, that’s a part of it, but you don’t have to reduce gravity. You need to optimize gravity, let’s say it that way.

Samuel Stow

Okay.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Samuel Stow

Well, I’ll tell you an interesting example that I had actually yesterday. I’ve been doing some more kayaking again recently, and we did a session where they. They had to put us. We had to put resistance on the front of the boat. So we actually had these, like, foam resistance under the boat. And then we were doing sprint sets where we’re trying to push against the resistance. And, you know, it’s similar to dragging a tire behind you right when you’re running around your hips. So you’re having to really drive a lot harder with the paddle to push against this because the boat’s not, you know, floating. And so then we did 10 sets of that, and then we took them off, and it was amazing doing. I did 10 sets after that without the resistance. How efficient I felt and how powerful and quick everything was, because you’re learning how to get the most efficient, powerful stroke and under duress, and then you take the stress away, and then it’s much easier.

Steven Sashen

There’s a. For sprint training, there’s two. There are a couple of versions of that. One is using a parachute with a quick release. And the other is. There’s some really. Well, there’s a device that, if I had way more money than sense, I would own one. Personally, I don’t think any. I don’t know any people that own them. It’s like, you know, universities and spring programs. It’s called the 1080 motion. It’s basically a cable on a wheel with a computer controlling how fast it either extends or comes back. So basically this to you. And it’s for. It’s really good for doing that resisted running, similar to what you described. It’s also good. You turn around and connect it to your front and it will drag you forward. So you’re doing overspeed. So just to keep on your face, you learn that, you know, you learn that you can probably move your legs faster than your brain is used to. And so you’re learning just to get you know, faster turnover, just a tiny bit. Um, so all of these things to basically exaggerate what you’re doing in various directions. Things that I love, like when I’m. Sometimes when I’m trying to teach someone how to run barefoot, I show them what they’re doing wrong and I have them do it wrong, er, because they can’t feel that they’re doing it wrong. And once they feel like, worse, they’re like, oh, yeah, we need to come up with a whole bunch of those. Like, what’s the version of having the foam thing in front of you for running or. That would be very clever.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, Yeah. I. I love using resistance bands. I think that they’re the most accessible thing that you can use to kind of help, you know, apply more resistance. And then that gives you that kinesthetic feedback as to where the effort is supposed to go, do you know?

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it’s a fun thing. I mean, one thing that sprinters do is just. They’ll have someone. Just not even an elastic band, all you can do elastic, but just literally like a belt and someone behind you holding it and you’re running and they’re trying to keep you from running. Then they just let go and you just, like, fly for those next few steps.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, 100. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Steven Sashen

That one’s super fun. It feels like your magic, even if you’re not really running any faster than you were a second ago.

Samuel Stow

Yeah. Because a lot of people are afraid of leaning forward, you know?

Steven Sashen

Yes.

Samuel Stow

Like, especially the older they are, you know, and that’s where, like, people like my dad, when 71, and I work with other older people, you know, trying to teach them that they actually need to lean forward, to move forward, because they’re propelling from the back. So it’s all very counterintuitive. And they’re like. It’s like. It’s going against my inbuilt safety mechanisms to lean forward because I feel like I’m going to fall over.

Steven Sashen

It’s. It’s so funny. I’m. I. I hate to do it this way, but, I mean, I’m thinking back to the walking video I made and I. And while I have this whole sort of like, technique for getting used to some things similar to what we’re describing, I think at one point I say, if all you do is lean forward a little bit and don’t. And don’t try to swing your leg forward, that’ll take care of 90% of what I’m talking about.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s it’s like, it’s posture and. Yeah. Biomechanical.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And it’s not like you’re leaning forward so much that it looks like you’re walking into the wind. It’s a tiny little bit. It’s like.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, just enough. It depends on how fast you want to go a little bit. But it’s just enough to generate forward movement, really.

Steven Sashen

But so backing up to speed and backing up to knee bend. I mean, it is one thing that people. I encourage people to look at is like, find some video of someone running the distance that you want to run. And by the way, I’m making this up on the fly, so correct me if you think I’m full of. Find someone who’s running the distance you want to run. Let’s say you’re, you know, you’re a 10k guy. Find someone who, you know, like a good 10k runner, Olympic 10k runner, and watch them towards the end of the race, not the last 100 meters, not the last 200 meters, but, like, towards the end of the race, and watch what that swing leg is looking like. Watch the knee bend that they have. Now, granted, they’re going faster than you probably will, so it’s not going to be the same. But just to see what the sort of, you know, end result of the highest level of elite whatever looks like, it’s probably. I think that would be really informative because most people don’t know or they haven’t really paid attention to that because I don’t know why I just noticed people don’t pay attention to backside mechanics.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, I think, you know, you want to find a good example. You know, like, for me, good examples are like, eloquent Choge, Jim Walmsley, people like that, because, you know, like, Jim Walmsley, like, 70 miles into 100 miles still doesn’t look like he’s run, like a mile yet. So that, like, that’s a pretty good example, because I think, like, really the goal is that, for it to be effortless, because if it’s effortless, that’s the only way you’re going to be able to maintain it for 100 miles.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, well. And Kipchug is an interesting one. And again, you don’t want to find people, like, at the end of a race if they’re trying to set a world record or compete, because they’re going to do whatever it takes to get to the finish line. And sometimes, you know, form breaks down and it gets all crazy. But if you catch them kind of like, well, Certainly at the beginning and often in the middle too. It’s still looking like freakishly good and. But then like in the sub two hour marathon, my favorite thing is Kipchoge is wearing these shoes that are, that according to Nike are designed to facilitate the heel to toe rocking motion and you know, never touches the heel of that shoe until the very end where he was like trying to get there under two hours and whatever method you can find, you’re going to do it.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Sashen

That’s brilliant. Anything that we left out just about. Again, you know, where we started of this whole idea of getting stronger, learning to use your glutes so they can propel you as you’re doing, as you’re using your body. The way it’s actually meant to be is look, backing up. Yes, people do are fascinated by sprinters, butts. I will confess that I, I think that’s a way of. For Americans who don’t pay attention to track and field, that would be a. What much better way to advertise track and field is just oh my God, look at that. But, but oh my God, look at that. But is what I accidentally said. If you remove the comma. So that’s kind of where we begin. And again, you know that alignment is necessary for the proper use of the musculature that you’re using. That leads to everything else we’re talking about, about using the springs properly and using lean properly. Is there anything we left out that we wanted to kind of touch on before I let you tell people how to find you and experience what we’ve been talking about?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, I think that, you know, like a lot of people might think that this is a very like fanciful conversation about like complicated biomechanics. But you know, at the end of the day it’s actually fundamental movement and it’s not only about running, it’s about being healthy and able to move well for a long time. So for me it’s it, it’s about longevity as much as it is about efficiency because you know my dad has seen a lot of benefits to being able to move efficiently. And you know with good posture like it means that he’s going to be able to walk efficiently and he’s not going to develop that hunch overness, you know, like for example that his, his dad had a little bit more as he got older when he hiked. So it’s a, it’s a longevity tool and it’s just a general health and wellness tool as much as it is about like being Able to run well.

Steven Sashen

Do you know one of the greatest things about being a master sprinter is hanging out with master sprinters who are way older than me. Like, yeah, I’ll never forget. So, you know, there’s a whole thing about the All American times. You have to hit this time to be an all American. And as you get older, the numbers get, you know, bigger and bigger so you’re running slower. Just, you know, kind of no way around that. When I first went to the senior games, when you, when I turned 50, a bunch of 60 year olds came up to me and went, you know, boy, when you turn 60, it kind of falls off a cliff. And then a bunch of 80 year olds were standing behind them and they went, you have no idea what you’re talking about. But the thing, the thing that’s really fun is you look at all these guys and just like you described, they’re not hunched over, they’re active, they’re moving. It’s, you know, it is not for some of them, certainly not ideal. They don’t look like they’re 25, but they don’t look like any other 70, 80, 85 plus people that you’ve seen. And it’s, and, and I don’t, I think that it is. How do I want to put it? It’s not, I mean, they’re, they’re probably some genetic component to it, but it’s also just this continual using your body and paying attention to your body. And I’m very curious to see, you know, well, I’m not 63 yet. I got three more weeks. But I’m really curious to see what happens because right now everything feels fine and I can’t imagine it falling off a cliff other than the fact that I’m getting, you know, a little slower every couple of years. It’s, you know, I’m, there’s a tenth off from whatever my previous time was. So be it. One. Yeah. One of the fun things about masters track is, is you do have these weird goals. Like, all I want to do is hit all American times. If I can keep doing that and if I can hit them in an age group behind mine, thrilled. And having those goals is really a blast. But like, find a master’s track meet and go, go look at some of these people. They’re really inspiring.

Samuel Stow

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I’m surrounded by ridiculously fit looking 70 plus year olds, you know, because I live on the Sunshine coast and it’s kind of like a mecca for, you know, retiring athletes, you know, because it’s Such a nice place to live. And yeah, like there’s, I, I paddle with an 80 plus year old and he’s still pretty decent, you know.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, my, one of my training partners is a 75 year old woman, former, former world champion and, and actually one of my others is a cross country champion who’s also like 75. And it’s, in fact it’s really annoying because I’m the only person I train with who isn’t a former world champion. But that’s okay.

Samuel Stow

That’s good though.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, no, I, I look, the guys in my age group who are world champions, they were all like Olympians, national team people. I mean some of them are still taking a boatload of drugs, but, but that’s cool. I mean, again, all I want to do is be in the conversation. I’m not looking to dominate the conversation, but you’ll get a kick out of this. There’s, there’s a track meet that we’ve had. We’ve had to not have it for a couple of years, but we’ve had it for a while and it’s coming back at the end of the season, outdoor season. It’s an age graded 100 meters, so the older you are, the less you have to run. And the age grading is so accurate based on all of us working on the assumption that we’re all like, you know, really good, that it’s always a photo finish. Not for first, for all eight places. Like there’s videos where you can’t figure out who won because in the last half a step everything converges. But again, it’s super, super inspiring to see it because there’s some guys who are only running 40 meters and then there’s young guys who have to catch them from 100 meter, from 60 meters behind them. And, and I mean it’s, it’s a hoot. It’s a real hoot. But again, you know, find a master’s track race. Go, go check it out. It should be inspiring. Any of that’s my message. But back to you for the win, Sam. People want to find out what you’re doing so they can experience what we’ve been talking about. What are the ways they can do that?

Samuel Stow

Yeah, my website, pop running all1word.com, that’s, there’s lots of different options there. So there’s a free intro to the functional step and there’s also my ebook in a bundle. So I actually wrote a, a book which encompasses not just movement but also like the whole philosophy which includes breathing and mindfulness. And like how to, you know, make the whole process of moving and exercise much more enjoyable. And then if you give the bundle that’s also got a activation workshop, the glute activation program that I mentioned too. So that’s the best way. But if you want to catch me on Instagram, I’m Sam Poprunning as well. So yeah, those are probably two main places.

Steven Sashen

Well, A, thank you, B, brilliant. C, I hope people do check it out. And D, I want to hear what you all think when you do. So please let me know. And back to me for the win. Don’t forget, go over to www.join the movementmovement.com. there’s nothing you need to do to join. There’s no membership fee, there’s no song we sing every morning. It’s just that’s the domain that I got. And you’ll find all the previous episodes, of which there are quite a few, all the ways you can engage with us on social media, please do. And if you have any requests, anyone you think should be on the show, anyone, any comments, any whatever suggestions, if there’s someone you can find who wants to be on the show, who might think I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, that would be super fun because I would love to have a conversation with someone who is on the other side of the spectrum, as it were, drop me an email. For whatever reason, move to M O v e@jointhemovementmovement.com and most importantly, between now and whenever we hear each other again, although I’m not hearing you, but you can get what I’m saying, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

DRIVE Feet First, Too!

marketdomination — Wed, 21 May 2025 00:00:11 +0000

Unleash your inner speed demon as we dive into the adrenaline-fueled world of high-performance racing simulations.

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Brian McRae, a professional sim racer who approaches the virtual racing world with the same dedication and seriousness as traditional motorsports, viewing it as a legitimate discipline within the racing community. He asserts that modern racing simulators offer a level of fidelity and realism akin to flight simulators, making them highly effective training tools for aspiring racers. By advocating for sim racing as a viable entry point into professional motorsports, McRae highlights success stories like those of NASCAR drivers Ty Majeski and William Byron, who transitioned from virtual to real-world racing. His passion for sim racing is further reflected in the vibrant community he has fostered, with his popular YouTube league drawing a dedicated audience and showcasing the thrill of racing without the financial and physical risks associated with traditional motorsport.

Key Takeaways:

→ Practice the heel-toe shifting technique for smoother gear engagement.

→ Explore paddle shifting for faster and more efficient gear changes.

→ Engage in short and intense physical activities for improved performance.

→ How people can learn from both their successes and their failures.

Brian McRae is the leader of Top Flight Sim Racing, a professional iRacing team specializing in stock car and sports car endurance racing. Since 2018, he has guided the team to over 20 wins, four league championships, and three class wins in prestigious endurance events, including back-to-back victories at the 24 Hours of Nürburgring and an outright win at the 2021 iRacing Petit Le Mans. With a passion for racing, Brian has also competed in the iRacing Daytona 24, one of the largest global online racing events. At Top Flight Sim Racing, collaboration, strategy, and mental endurance are at the core of their success, as the team races five nights a week in the OBRL, one of iRacing’s premier leagues.

Connect With Brian:

YouTube

Connect with Steven:

Website

Xero Shoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

If you’re looking for the right shoes to wear when you’re driving 200 miles an hour, have I got news for you? Especially if you’re doing that 200 miles an hour without leaving your living room. We’re going to talk about that on today’s episode of the Movement. Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting feet first. You know, those things at the end of your legs that are the foundation for everything you do. We also break down the propaganda, the mythology and sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about about what it takes to run, walk, hike, play, do yoga, lift, anything you can think of and to do that enjoyably, effectively, efficiently. Did I say enjoyably? Don’t answer that. I know I did because I say it all the time. Because look, if you’re not having a good time, you’re not going to keep up whatever it is you’re doing. So find something you enjoy. We’re going to talk about that today. I’m Stephen Sashin, co founder, chief barefoot officer here at Zero Shoes and we call this the Movement Movement. Because we including you more about that in a second. No obligation, no cost. We are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do without getting in the way and causing problems and then claiming that you’re actually providing cures for the thing that you just created. So here’s the we part. It’s really simple. Spread the word, give us a thumbs up, give us a five star review. Hit the bell icon on YouTube. To hear about new episodes, go to our website, www.jointhemovementmovement.com. nothing you need to do to join. There’s no cost, it’s just that’s the domain I got. But you’ll find all the previous episodes, of which there are quite a few, you’ll find all the ways you can find us on social media and how you can find the podcast in somewhere other than where you found it now, if you’re not crazy about the place where you found it now. So all of that said, let’s get started. Brian McRae, tell people who you are and what you’re doing here and how it is that you can go so fast in such a tiny little space.

Brian McRae

Well, it’s going fast in the office, so it’s a little bit different. I am a professional sim racer and for those of you that don’t know, that’s kind of like playing Gran Turismo. On your. On your tv, but on steroids. We, we have racing team simulator equipment and gear in our offices. And it has the fidelity of, say, a flight simulator training scenario. This is something that real race teams use to train. And those of us that can’t afford or get to a racetrack use them in real life to actually race other people. And so it’s something that we do at a very high level, something we enjoy. We treat it like racing. It’s just another discipline for us. So we go 200 miles an hour, but we’re standing still the whole time.

Steven Sashen

Well, it occurs to me, how many people have gone. I mean, how many professional racers use sim for training? And the really fun question, how many sim racers have actually gotten in a car on a real track and what’s that experience like?

Brian McRae

That’s a fantastic question. And just about every racing driver.

Steven Sashen

Why, thank you.

Brian McRae

Just about every racing driver uses simulations. They all do. Every professional race team has. It has a. Has simulators. All the manufacturers have simulators. Simulators have always been a part of racing. Now your second question is, how many sim drivers have gone onto real racing? Well, there’s a story, there’s actually a movie made about this kid who won the PlayStation Academy, the Gran Turismo PlayStation Academy went on to run the 24 hours of Le Mans. This is way back in the early 2000s. Since then, there have been several NASCAR drivers. Ty Majeski is one who have made the. Made the leap to real racing. William Byron, who has won several NASCAR races at the cup level, started as a sim racer too. So it’s become both a training ground. But the reason that it’s such a trading ground is that it evens the playing field. It makes racing accessible because if you can race in the sim, odds are you can probably race in real life. And so it’s made racing something that’s not very accessible to any of us. It’s made it accessible. Accessible to all of us.

Steven Sashen

Well, my question, especially going from sim to a real car, is. So I, way back when was doing a bunch of day trading. Good, okay. I have a friend who’s still doing that. And of course, one of the things you try and do when you’re trading a system is you want to test your system and you can test it in real time with simulated trading. And then you play, put some money on the table and everything changes. Even if it’s a small amount of money, whole different game. So I’m curious, it would be fascinating to talk to someone who’s made that transition from sim to real about, you know, what the difference is when you know that if things go wrong, you don’t just fall out of your chair, it can go bad. And I have to tell you, I’ll tell you a funny or not funny, very interesting story about someone who doesn’t go from sim to real. But my only racing story, but I’ll tell you that in a second.

Brian McRae

But I can tell you certainly that having I’ve actually raced my car at the Circuit of the Americas, that’s a, that’s a world class Formula one racetrack here in Austin. And I’ve raced that track in the sim thousands and thousands of laps. And I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the feel of the car, now granted, we have limited. We can only interact with the pedals, interact with the steering wheel, and interact visually. So we don’t have the tactile, we don’t have the G forces, the noise, the smell, all the things that makes real racing fantastic. So we have to rely on the inputs that we do have. But those inputs translate directly, I mean, directly to the way that a car behaves. So I, I can actually tell you a real story about a time I was at the racetrack and I saw a race car make a mistake in a corner. I saw exactly how the car behaved and how the car spun off the track. And I knew exactly what that driver had done because I had made the same mistake in the sim at least 100 times. It’s uncanny how, how, how much a high fidelity simulation can increase your overall ability to drive a regular race car.

Steven Sashen

But now let me say I’m going to reframe this in a little way. In the same way that people, when they talk to Lena and I about starting zero shoes and being entrepreneurs, they say something about our ability to tolerate risk. And I go, no, I don’t think you understand. We don’t perceive this as in any way risky. It never occurs to me that this is risky. I mean, yes, I could end up bankrupt. I could be, you know, catching fish in Baja and that’s the way I survive. Which is, I mean, my, my, I have this, this entrepreneurial failure fantasy which if everything just went, you know, completely to crap, I would make sandwiches at Quiznos and then I’d show up at a high school reunion and people would say, what do you do? And I go, oh, Quiznos. And they’re going to, oh, so you own franchises? No, I’m. They’re letting me cut the bread. Now. I don’t have, I don’t have My identity too tied up with anything that I do. But, but, but. So I wonder for anyone who’s making the transition from sim racing to real racing if it’s a similar thing that the idea of the, the difference in genuine risk is just not even something that pops into one’s mind or if it’s there and then you learn to deal with that and you know what that process is like.

Brian McRae

That’s, I think, probably one of the biggest differences. And I, that I had a very, I mean, it was a track day at Coto, so it wasn’t a public sanctioned race. It wasn’t an actual race. I’m an actual, you know, race car that I was getting paid to drive. But these are. It’s dangerous. Racing at any level is very dangerous. It’s very inconvenient, it’s very expensive. And so all that. And, and it’s. It’s extraordinarily risky. And so, yes, it absolutely affects the way that you drive on a racetrack. And that’s one of the things I don’t have to worry about because I could just.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, it is interesting. I mean, I do know just from listening to a few people that I know who are really into racing, especially F1, is that the. While it is risky and dangerous, way less so now than it was 10, 20 years ago. I mean, holy smokes. And. And some. So much of that is just technology. Which brings me to my one story. But then we’re going to talk about why we’re talking on my podcast about sim racing. I had a friend who, I have a friend who was one of the first people developing a real time biometric sensing device. It was basically, it was a Palm Pilot with a neoprene vest that had a whole bunch of sensors in it. And so they were getting real time data about what was happening with your breathing and your heart rate and a bunch of other things. And so they had fighter pilots wearing this thing and a bunch of people doing very interesting activities. And one was a racer. I don’t remember, I don’t remember what type of racing. I don’t remember if it was F1 or probably NASCAR. But don’t hold me to it. Either way. They’re looking at the monitor and looking at all of the guys biometrics and it’s all very interesting. And suddenly everything just got really slow. Heart rate went down, breathing went down, like slow. And they’re going, they’re tapping the machine, they’re checking the connectors. Then they look up and they see the guy’s car rolling bad. And when they got him out of the car, they said, we were a little shocked. I mean, we just watched all your vitals slow down. He goes, yeah. Once the car starts rolling, there’s nothing I can do but wait.

Brian McRae

It’s so true. The fundamental truth behind that. Yeah, it’s true. And you’ll see them tuck under. They’ll take their hands off the wheel and pull it. It’s all you can do is just sit there and wait for the hit. It’s. It’s. I don’t have to worry about that. That’s a very. It’s a very real difference.

Steven Sashen

It’s. It’s fascinating. It’s like. I mean, it’s like the times where I’ve. Where I have admittedly accidentally stopped on ESPN when there’s motorcycle racing and you watch someone wipe out on a motorcycle at 150 miles an hour and they just, you know, skid for 100 meters and then stand up like nothing happens. Like, oh, my God. Yeah.

Brian McRae

There’s a big question this that we have to add that I have to ask here is what if.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Brian McRae

What if you could deliver, say, 75% of the fidelity of being at the racetrack? So you’re not all the way there, but you’re pretty much there. And what if the simulation’s fidelity was. Was enough such that you could trick your brain that you were really on the track? And this. This happens. This happens because our brains, as you know, don’t know.

Steven Sashen

Oh, yeah.

Brian McRae

Yeah, reality. So while I may not have the perceived risk, I can guarantee you that there have been times when I’ve been in my digital race car and my brain thinks I’m on an actual racetrack and I have to kind of come reality a little bit. That’s how, that’s how good the fidelity simulations has gotten.

Steven Sashen

Well, that raises a question. An interesting one for me is so I’ve been in, like, you know, those 3D fake roller coasters, for example, and I now I like roller coasters in general. Those things nauseate me. Like, there’s no tomorrow. So, I mean, have you found yourself at any time getting that sort of physical effect?

Brian McRae

Absolutely. Especially when I first started. Like, for example, I do a lot of NASCAR racing and a lot of NASCAR racing at Daytona and Talladega. Those are drafting tracks where you’re literally, literally racing 2 inches up from the car in front of you. There’s another car two inches behind you. The first time you do that, it is terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. And even though I’m on a Digital car in a digital racetrack. I’m scared to death. I’m gonna wreck it is just your brain can’t tell the difference. Yeah. So it’s something. A good one of my early teammates, he put it very succinctly. He says you have to get yourself to where you’re comfortable. Feeling uncomfortable.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting.

Brian McRae

To that point where you’re comfortable in this really uncomfortable place.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, I would imagine that, I mean, one statistic, and I don’t actually have the statistic. One thing that I know you can give me the statistic if you know it, that is related to that. I mean, that kind of getting, getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. You’re still having all of the tension and stress responses going on, which tell me, how many pounds does a racer lose during an actual race?

Brian McRae

During an actual race. These guys are pro athletes. Yeah. They’re putting heart rate monitors in the cars and their heart rates are like 160, 170, and it’s 110 degrees in the car and they’re wearing a full. I mean, these guys are going flat out the whole time. So they’re at. But even in my air conditioned office, after an hour and a half of a race, I’m drenched in sweat. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m. My heart rate’s 130. It’s like, it’s like, it’s exercise. So it’s just a different kind of exercise. The intensity.

Steven Sashen

What a trip. Well, you know, for people who don’t grasp how real it can be. I don’t know if there’s anything to search for on this, but my favorite sort of augmented reality or, or not even virtual. It’s hard to explain. Experiment was they have somebody put on a whole VR headset and what they’re seeing in front of them is an avatar of themselves. So when they move, it moves. And what the researcher will do is simultaneously stroke someone’s back with, you know, like a little stick while they’re seeing the fake version, the cartoon version of themselves in front of them getting stroked with a stick. And after a few minutes of doing this, they’ll do something shocking to the avatar and the person feels it in their own body. Like you. Literally, your brain makes you start thinking you are that thing outside of you. Which if you think about, I’m not, I’m not a guy, I haven’t done hallucinogens. But, you know, you hear certain stories and then suddenly it’s like, oh, your brain has this weird ability to to when you look for where am I? It might point to places that aren’t pointing towards your chest or your head.

Brian McRae

I had an experience like that. This is very specific. I was racing. This was a NASCAR race at Kansas. Kansas Speedway is a 1.5 mile an hour oval. It was nighttime. It was a night gorgeous. I love racing.

Steven Sashen

At one point you said 1.51 and.

Brian McRae

A half mile oval. So sorry, Normal oval racetrack. So nothing’s nothing particularly special about it. But this particular night, I can’t tell you exactly why. About halfway through the race, Steven, I swear to God, I thought I was on a real racetrack. I thought that I was there. I thought that I was in the crowd. I really, really believed that I was on that racetrack. And I had to reel myself back in. I really had to like. Wait a minute, hold on a second. Pattern interrupt. You’re sitting in an office. It was that real for me. And there have been several times when I’ve gotten close to that, but nothing ever came close to that. It was like my brain forgot completely that I was in an office and thought I was in a race car on a racetrack. It was uncanny. I’ll never forget it.

Steven Sashen

The closest thing I can come to that is when I was. Let’s see. So I went to film school. I got a degree in film from Columbia. And simultaneously at the request and advice of one of our teachers who was a very well known actor, who said, you should. I should be taking acting classes as well. During this one acting class improv exercise, I’ll do the shortest version of the story possible. I was at a moment. So I have to give a little preface. This exercise. You have a partner and you have. You establish a relationship. And so we established that she was my roommate’s best girlfriend. When we were in college. She was living in New York. I had moved away. And you give each other just enough information so they have a context, but then your job is to make up some other story. And one of the characters walks in the door with this other story. And you know, they start the scene, the scene. I think the exercise called. You know, there’s a knock at the door at one moment. This is where I’m abbreviating dramatically. My brain went, you have two choices now. You know this is fake, or you can go for the ride. And I decided to go for the ride. And where the ride was is I had made up the story that she had always. That her. That I had always been in love with her. Her husband, my roommate, had always told me if it weren’t for him, she’d be with me. I bumped into him at a bar in Chicago, and he told me that again. And I killed him. It gets better. When I. When. When I realized things were kind of weird and awkward, and I, you know, made some comment like, well, you know, Bob always told me that if it weren’t for him, you’d be with me. She goes, yeah, but I used to say that just to get rid of you. I never liked you. And in that moment, when I, quote, realized that I had just killed someone by accident, my brain exploded. And for the next 10 minutes, I was. I felt like I had just made the biggest mistake in the world by killing someone at all, let alone for the wrong reason. It was the most. I mean, and I was having emotions and movements and everything that were, you know, an out of Stephen experience. Never anything like it before or since. It was. And it was, in a weird way, the most freeing thing I ever had because it had nothing to do with the familiar parts of me. It was so wacky for everyone involved that for the next three weeks, no one in my class spoke to me.

Brian McRae

But that’s the point of improv.

Steven Sashen

I mean, well, something that was like, you’re just gonna. Yeah, you’re just gonna go.

Brian McRae

You just went with it. Like, that’s what you’re supposed to do.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. You’re open to whatever happens, and you just go. Now, I don’t know. I know lots of actors who say they’ve had that experience or something similar, and it. But it. 90% of the time, it doesn’t happen. But, like, when that does happen, that’s what makes you come back. That’s what makes you go, I got to do this again.

Brian McRae

You know, that actually speaks to something that we, like, we take it. We take this. My teammates and my league mates, we take this very seriously. Yeah, we are. You know, our cars are painted. We’ve got liveries, we’ve got sponsors. We treat our cars like real race cars. Like, we great. We try to race like real races. Like, we do everything that we can possibly do to make the experience as authentic as possible, even down to the. When the race. Race is over, we cross the finish line and we drive all the way back around the racetrack and back onto pit road as if it were a real race car. Now, it sounds ridiculous, but the idea is that, first of all, the more that you contribute to the realism and the fidelity of the simulation, the more real it gets and the more visceral it becomes. Now that effect gets amplified when those that are racing around you do the same thing. Because now you have a community of people that are dedicated to realism, dedicated to truth, dedicated to fidelity. And Steven, it’s that same experience, that same level of emotion, that depth. It’s the same experience because the environment becomes so rich. And I’ve had, we. This is more, this is why we do it, you know, three nights a week is because we have this collective of people who race this way. And that contributes to the realism more than any technology, more than any graphics, more than anything else. It’s the community around us. It’s uncanny. And that’s actually reminds me very much of improv. It’s very similar.

Steven Sashen

I’m now dying to know who is driving like a SIM F1 car and in real life they’ve got a Ford Focus.

Brian McRae

Well, I drive a Toyota Camry in real life, so that’s me right here.

Steven Sashen

Okay. Now I gotta tell you, I mean, I do have one friend who’s also sim racer and we, we rarely talk about it.

Brian McRae

He.

Steven Sashen

He’s another entrepreneur and it’s been too busy and a little stressed out. But, but I, I do want to ask you later about what it costs to get involved into, you know, to do this. But let’s cut to the chase. The reason we’re having this conversation is you reached out to me a little while ago and said something that has to do with what I do, related to what you do. Shall you tell that story?

Brian McRae

I would love to. And it starts very simply. Steve and you by accident made the perfect sim racing shoe. And what I mean by that is, you know, we like, like race car drivers. There are, there are purpose built shoes for racing. There are driving shoes that are built to do that.

Steven Sashen

Well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna pause there. We’ve had a number of NASCAR drivers reach out to us who wear our st. Their training like in the gym. I mean, like you said, these people are athletes. And, and they said, the only reason we’re not wearing your shoes in the car is they’re not fireproof.

Brian McRae

That’s it. And so I, I bought a pair of HF of these right here of HFS’s favorites. I’ve got at least a half a dozen pair of these things. And I bought my first pair and I came back in from going to the gym or going on a run and I hopped into the sim and completely by accident, I realized that these, they were perfect because the fact that there’s so little material, they’re so flexible, pull the insoles out and it’s just this tiny little layer of rubber of the pedals. And it solves a couple of different challenges just immediately. I mean, it was one of those things that hit me like a lightning bolt because I tried racing barefoot, tried racing in socks, tried racing in shoes. Nothing works because any sort of shoe has so much material that whatever tactile feel that you get from these pedals, you lose. Because we don’t have the same, it’s not the same fidelity you get in an actual race car. We’ve got purpose built pedals, but the feedback is limited. So anything we can do to maximize the feel that we get out of the pedal, the better. That’s why most of us race barefoot or racing and socks. But that doesn’t give you the grip and the consistency that you need. So I’m hooking these things up and they stuck right to the pedals and the hattle. I had the same feel as if I were barefoot. And it was the best of both worlds and it was immediate. So ever since then I started just wearing your shoes in the sim and then I decided to reach out to you, say, hey, I don’t. I haven’t found sim racing shoes. They don’t really exist. And so wouldn’t it be neat to be able to put these out into the world and tell more people about the story?

Steven Sashen

And it’s something that we’re having more conversations about that. And you know, I’ve talked about a driving shoe for a while. There’s a couple of things that we would want to change to make that work better. So you started with the hfs. That’s the. What we now call the HFS original. Did you. Where did you go from there? Did you pick up anything else?

Brian McRae

I did. So there’s a couple of different applications. The hfs, the original HFS is great. I call it my sprint racing shoot. So if I have a short race or one that I’ve got to have a lot of footwork, it’s my go to because it has so little material and my HFS are so well broke. Broken in there. Like it’s almost like an extension of my foot. So it’s the least amount of material I have between, you know, my, my foot and the pedals. My new go to though is the new Speed Force. Oh man. New Speed Force. Steven. What a shoe. I. And it’s actually. So my new kind of campaign slogan is from the SIM to the gym. Because these shoes work phenomenally in both places. And it was actually you, you’re the one that turned me on to these a long time ago. And when you and I first started talking in a couple of months ago, you told me about the new ones. And man, these. These things are. They’re incredible. And it’s. So they’re even lighter than the original hfs. Yeah, the sole is even thinner. But the back of the sole is such that it’s. It’s shaped more like a traditional driving shoe. So just the shoe architecture, and the architecture of the sole likens itself more to a driving shoe. And there’s even less material in the upper, so it breathes just phenomenal. And then in the gym, the platform I get in the gym off these things is something really special. So I wear them all the time.

Steven Sashen

Well, yeah. The original version of that I co developed originally with a guy who was at Nike for 30 years and researched ways that people made shoes where they had no technology or whether it’s because of unavailability or that they were 400 years ago. And the original version, you could sew it together with four pieces of fabric. And frankly, it was never quite the way I originally designed it. I could never get the factory to do it right. But then we commercialized it, made it, made it pretty good. And then we also knew that the. That original design, people either loved it or hated it, but we always try to make it so that there’s not a reason to not buy something and. And then redesigned it with. With the new upper, which is even lighter. And it’s a whole other thing. There’s some people who still love the original. I like it too. I work them both. But yeah, this is the shoe that as a sprinter I race and compete and train in. So in the gym, I wear it because it’s like nothing. It’s flat. Not messing with my posture, lets my toes really work. We’ve had a number of powerlifters who swear by that shoe as well. Actually all of them but that one. Because it’s the closest thing to, like you said, closest thing to barefoot, let your toes actually work. Most people don’t know that. For. Especially for heavy lifting and for professional lift like powerlifting, bench pressing starts with your feet and. And there’s that. And you’ve said to me when we were talking privately, you had a line that was similar about driving with your feet.

Brian McRae

Oh, absolutely. You drive a race car with your feet too. The brake pedal. It’s the people. Most of the. The old. One of the first questions a race car driver will ask is, what’s the brake pedal? For, and people say it’s supposed to stop the car. It’s not, it’s to turn the car. Turn the car. So it’s all. You drive the car with your feet as much as you do the steering. Well, in fact you want to drive the car with your feet because if any input I’m putting into the steering wheel is wearing out the tires, which is going to take good time off my lap. So if I can drive the car with my feet, I don’t have to use the steering wheel as much and I save my tires. So. Absolutely. That’s. Every professional race car driver will tell.

Steven Sashen

You that that’s very interesting. Well, one thing I know about, about performance driving and I, I know this only because I’ve had a number of delightfully fast cars. I like things I don’t draw, I don’t, I don’t speed speed, but I accelerate. It’s what I like doing. So my last car I sold it to get what I’m driving now was a Subaru BRZ that I put a supercharger in because, you know, of course, and so in, in researching that and, and I’ve driven a couple, I mean I actually drove a Lotus Amira recently which is very much fun. And so one of the techniques for effective driving for people who don’t know is referred to as heel toe for shifting. And can you describe that and talk to me? I’m just very curious about what your experience is doing heel toe shifting when you’re got a shoe that’s wider or foot shaped rather than something that’s squeezing your toes together.

Brian McRae

I can’t. You can’t. I can’t heel toe in any other shoe. There’s just, I mean I, I wear size 15 shoes. I’m 6 foot 4 so there’s a lot of me to go around anyway. And the pedal box of a sim racing just, it’s just thinner. It’s just, it’s a different office, not a race car.

Steven Sashen

Well, we do want to describe how heel toe works for people so they understand the.

Brian McRae

Sure, yeah, absolutely. So whenever you’re, whenever you’re operating three pedals, if you have, if you have a clutch and the brake and the gas, whenever you are downshifting, you actually want to blip the throttle to bump the revs up so that the gears, so that the gears engage more quickly. Well, you might be on the brakes when you do that. And so the, the effect is you either, you either press the brake with your right foot and heal the gas and then move your left Foot to the clutch, and so the heater heel, toe healing the gas toe in the brake or vice versa. If you’re a left foot breaker, you heal the clutch and put your foot on the brake and heel toe the brakes. Depends on the technique. It depends on whether, whether or not you’re a left foot breaker or right foot breaker. The classic technique is the right foot. So your left foot, your right foot goes on the brake, your left foot goes on the clutch, and your right foot operates the gas with the heel and the, the break with your toe. You’ll see Ayrton Senec videos, you’ll see some classic red stock car videos. Doing that. That is, for me, impossible. And shoes just can’t do it. I in, in these shoes, I can. It’s, it’s, it’s still, it’s still a challenge. It’s still very much a discipline. And most of the cars I run now are paddle shifters, so I don’t have to.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting, actually. I mean, because, yeah, paddle shifting, it’s just so fast, especially now. Oh, my God. I went just for the fun of it. You’ll get a kick out of this. I don’t know if I told you this last week I did something. I did something that was really stupid. After watching a bunch of YouTube videos where YouTube just like showed me this one video and then I watched a bunch, I went and drove the car. From the videos that I’d seen the car, right. It was very dangerous. It was a Mercedes AMG GT63. I think it’s the new one, the SE extremely dangerous. It’s a $225,000 car. I do not have $225,000. My last car net was 15,000. The one before that net was 15,000. The One before that net was 15,000,. Get the hint? So, and net is, you know, bought the car, sold what I had before, but. Oh, my God. I mean, I’ve. The thing shifts so fast, you, you don’t even realize it’s happening practically. Except you just get plastered to the back of your seat again and again and again. And it ruined me. I mean, it really ruined me. Yeah.

Brian McRae

Takes the drama right out of it. That’s actually when driving cars like that. I mean, those, those cars came from race cars.

Steven Sashen

They’re all the. Yeah, all the AMG is part of the racing.

Brian McRae

They’re race. They’re race cars. And so to see how technology has advanced over the years, even over the last 10 or 15 years, to be able to go out and drive something like that and just see how phenomenally fast and how the brakes now everything works. And knowing this racing that pushes that along, that’s one of the reasons why I love it.

Steven Sashen

I have to tell you, one of my favorite things in that car has nothing to do with racing. I mean, it does a little bit, but it’s more effective when you’re parking. It has rear wheel steering. So if you’re turning to the left, the rear wheels turn to the right. So and the way, the way they told me about it, we pulled into the dealership to, you know, drop the car off after I was just, you know, giddy. And we pull up, we’re like driving up between a row of cars. And he wanted me to turn left and it was like barely a car width to turn into. I said, I’m gonna have to like do a 10 point turn. He goes, yeah, just try it. And the car just like, it was as if it was on a, on a turntable. It’s like rotated in and it was really cool.

Brian McRae

Technology, man.

Steven Sashen

And that is the geekiest thing that I can possibly say. No, no, wait.

Brian McRae

Most about it actually.

Steven Sashen

Wait, here’s the geekiest thing. The geekiest thing is that car is super, super low. And so it’s. If you’re going either over a speed bump or the opposite of a speed bump, which we have in our neighborhood for dealing with water, or even the curb in front of our driveway, it’s almost impossible to not crunch the front end. The car. You can raise the front end. This is not the geeky part. The geeky part’s coming. You can raise the front end a few inches so that you don’t bottom out. The car, the geeky part is when you do it in this car, it remembers where you are with gps. And when you get close to that location in gps, it automatically raises the car for you.

Brian McRae

Wow, that’s bonkers.

Steven Sashen

That’s. I think that’s probably. That’s $25,000 of the 200. $5,000. Yeah. Holy moly. What a, what a trip. So you mentioned sim to the gym. Talk to me. Just, you know, how many, how many SIM racers are really treating it, you know, as serious as real racers and going to the gym and just for the fun of it, you alluded to it. But say some more about your experience in the gym with, with zero shoes.

Brian McRae

So I have been wearing zeros in the gym since the very beginning. That was actually going all the way back to the original hfs. I think one of the the downsides of, I think, just gamers in general, anybody in that genre, is we’re inside and it’s setting, we’re sitting, we’re sitting down. Even if we’re working on steering wheel, we’re still sitting down. So it’s still setting. And so there is a tendency, you know, towards. Towards inaction, towards being. Being leading that sedentary lifestyle, snacking too much, etc. So I’m in my 50s and I’m trying to stay healthy, trying to stay young for my wife and for my kids. And fitness is just part of it. And it becomes more of a part of it as, you know, the older we get. So I’ve tried to incorporate that as much as I can into my lifestyle. And so these shoes are the perfect. They’re the perfect compliment because they do go from the sim to the gym. I don’t even have to change shoes. And so that’s. That’s kind of where that came from is this idea that, hey, you know, we’re we. That as a genre, that we’re sitting in the dark. Yeah, let’s go outside, let’s go to the gym. Let’s make sure we’re staying active to keep ourselves healthy at the same time. So that’s where that came from. But my experience in the gym, so I was. I was a competitive baseball player in my late 30s, early 40s, and I trained with a guy in a private gym. We trained barefoot. It’s the first time we trained barefoot. We did sprinting exercises, we did all the weightlifting. Everything was barefoot. And I’d never done it before and had no idea. So that was actually when I started that. That’s when I bought. That’s when I got my first pair of zeros. I said, like, I want to replicate that fe feel in real life as much as I could, but it was a whole, like a whole new world opened up when I started doing that.

Steven Sashen

Did you know. I mean, had you had any. I mean, I’m poisoning it well by asking the question this way, but I mean, did you either a have any issues, any, you know, joint, whatever, things that changed or. Or did you notice any change in performance once you were actually using your feet? I mean, like, I’m going to preface this with John Wadley, one of our VP of product development, has a great line. He goes, you know, people go to the gym, they work on everything from the ankles up, and they ignore the part below the ankles that supports everything from the ankles up. And we just see we’ve been a sponsor At Lifetime Fitness, we just see with the trainers and the. And the members who are wearing our shoes. It’s been really fun. Like, I helped lead a class. We led the class and then we put Jira shoes on their feet and we did a few more things again. And people were like, I just said a personal best.

Brian McRae

Yeah, I, for me, I was a catcher. And so wear and tear on your legs as a catcher is just one of the things you have to manage constantly. I was really fortunate. So I didn’t have too much of an injury history, but I developed shin splints and bad hamstring. My hamstrings were just notorious. I was continuously managing that. When I started training barefoot, that went away. Like once I, it was all. It was like you, like you talk about in all your videos, it was. I had to, I had to learn how to walk again. I had to learn how to run again. I had to get. I had to learn. Relearn biomechanics doing it. Yeah. And that, that, that proper biomechanical field was what I was trying to replicate with all these shoes that I was trying to time. But it was that. And once I, once I started. Now this was, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago. But I don’t have low back problems, I don’t have hamstring problems, and I don’t get shin splints anymore. And so I 100 attribute it to the type of training that I do, but also the shoes that I wear.

Steven Sashen

Well, and you, you said it. And I’m going to reiterate it. You know, it’s about form, not footwear. It’s just certain foot. Where it gets in the way of good form. And other footwear can support that. So, you know, we’re just not getting in the way is really where it goes. Okay, let’s get to the fun part. So describe what a SIM racing rig is like and the range of cost that one can incur.

Brian McRae

Well, it’s just like a real car. I mean, you can, you know, you can, you can bolt a, you know, $500 steering wheel to your laptop and try it that way. And many people get their start that way. Or you can actually get a.

Steven Sashen

Wait, you. You gotta unfuzz your background.

Brian McRae

Oh, let me do that real quick. Hold on a second.

Steven Sashen

Defuzzify yourself self. This is going to be very interesting. Now you’re still fuzzy. Now you’re. Now you’re still fuzzy. Here, I’ll do the Jeopardy. Theme song. Oh, wait, are you. No, getting there.

Brian McRae

I’m Getting there. Getting there.

Steven Sashen

Okay. All right. Okay. Stay on target.

Brian McRae

There we go.

Steven Sashen

Okay, show me what you got.

Brian McRae

Got it. Okay, so this is, is a full on dead spot. It doesn’t have motion, but it does have. Wait, wait, wait.

Steven Sashen

Doesn’t have. What about. All right, we’ll come, we’ll come back to motion because.

Brian McRae

What.

Steven Sashen

But. All right, keep going.

Brian McRae

This is. But I have a 49 inch widescreen, and that widescreen is on a floating panel. So I can, I can basically put it right next to my face. The wheel is a direct drive steering wheel. So it actually has just as much resistance as a regular race car does. You can see maybe the footwell down there. He’s got the pedals down there too. So it’s a fully functional. But I sit down in the racing seat.

Steven Sashen

It also looked like you had a. Look like you had a subwoofer behind there somewhere.

Brian McRae

That’s the PC, okay. Computer that runs it. So I run through headphones, but I’ve got super high fidelity headphones for that, for that application too. So my I. Mine is you can get all kinds of lights and bells and whistles and button boxes and all kinds of motions and all kinds of things. Bass shakers. But I found that fidelity, really, fidelity is about the wheel. It’s about the visuals. So the monitor, I’ve got a really high quality monitor and the pedals and those three things, that’s. That’s where I spent all my money and all my time is on those three things. And getting, enhancing that fidelity has made all the difference in the world.

Steven Sashen

So if someone’s going to get started, I mean, you know, like low end, high end, what are we talking about?

Brian McRae

So low end, say a thousand dollars. High end, 3 to 5,000. So you. And you could spend 10, 15, 20 if you wanted to. There’s some seriously expensive rigs out there.

Steven Sashen

So is. Is this one of those sports where, for lack of a better term, some rich old white guys spend a lot of money even though they don’t have the skill to use it?

Brian McRae

You know, somewhat I found that if you can race, you can race, you can race. And I have raced against guys who are beating me with the lowest, the lowest, the lowest quality wheel there is. They’re just that skilled, they’re few and far between. For my, my own personal. I’m especially getting older. I don’t have the fast twitch and the reaction time. So I’ve found that upgrad equipment, especially the wheel, that made a huge difference in my ability to be successful.

Steven Sashen

That’s Very interesting. Yeah, that reaction time thing and that speed thing. Oh man. And I’m way older than you, so.

Brian McRae

It’S, the clock is undefeated, man.

Steven Sashen

I’ll tell you, I was, I was at the, the first, I think it was the first time I was at the senior games when I just turned 50 and there was a bunch of 60 year olds there who were saying, God, dude, just wait. When he turns 60, it falls off a cliff. Cliff. And there happened to be a bunch of 80 year olds standing behind them and they walked up and was like, guys, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Brian McRae

There’s always somebody older.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, in the all American times, not only do they get slower with each new age group that I’ve been going in, but the amount of slow, slower they get, gets, gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

Brian McRae

I, I just turned 55 and I feel I, this is, I’ve been, I’ve been fortunate enough to feel pretty young and stay pretty young, but I’m feeling, and I feel like, I mean it’s, it’s a, it’s. I have not felt this before in my life. I’m having to work harder, having to, you know, it’s really having to manage it more than I ever did before.

Steven Sashen

The, the, the biggest thing that I’ve noticed, I mean I’m turning 63 in a couple weeks is that I’m, I mean I’ve actually been lifting a lot just for the sign of saying it, for the last year, a little over a year. And I’m, I’m, I’ve got more muscle mass than I ever had in my life and I’m lifting, but I’m not lifting as heavy as I used to sometimes. Partly because I don’t want to be an idiot because I got a screwed up spine. So I’m not doing heavy squatting, heavy deadlifting at all. But, but the biggest thing is the, the physical changes are very fun. I enjoy them thoroughly. But psychologically it’s difficult because I have to do way more recovery and rest. I can’t get in as much volume. And I, and, and the changes, either the amount of weight that I’m lifting or what’s actually happening in my body, body are so much slower. And frankly, partly I started doing this because I wanted to see how much bigger I could get before I inevitably got smaller. Because I remember seeing Jack lalanne. I’ve talked about this a bunch of times. I remember seeing a video of Jack Lalanne, he’s like 90, 92. And they’re showing that he’s still lifting. He co invented the Universal Gym, which I’m sure no one, most people have never seen. It was one of the first like all in one things and he’s doing the bench press and he’s like, if you look carefully, he was lifting 20 pounds.

Brian McRae

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

But you know, there’s 90 something years old, so. And again, I know like if I just, if I can just live to 100, I can possibly break that record. Only in the, in the 100 meters only because there’s probably nobody else who’s going to be racing. So it’s so there, there’s just a, a bunch of that. So it is, yeah, it is a fascinating thing discovering how to adjust to some things. I mean not everything’s inevitable, but some of it is. I mean I’ve definitely staved off quite a bit with what I’ve done. I’m sure you have as well. But not everything, man. I mean I am, I’ve learned to adapt.

Brian McRae

I think one of the things like I like you, I used to take, I would work out three, four days a week maybe and I would be sore all the time. But about a year ago I started working out every single day. So I did not. I work out every single day, single day. Now I’d like, I manage my workload so I’m not in there throwing a bunch of weight, working out two hours. I’m having to be, I have to be very cautious. But it’s almost like I’m. I’ve trained my body to be ready to work.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Brian McRae

Body’s producing the chemicals and the hormones that I need to always keep working because I never get sore. Well, that’s tired but I’ve never been sore.

Steven Sashen

That’s interesting. I mean the workouts that I do, it’s three times a week. It’s legs is one day. And I always do that first because it’s so unbearably difficult that if I did that anything other than first, I wouldn’t want to do anything else. Like after leg day, the other two workouts, which is back and shoulders and then chest, arms, abs, I look forward to the other ones. I mean they’re really hard. Like the, the trainer that I’m working with, I mean I was on the floor gasping for air after working my biceps two days ago. So. Because, I mean he just beats me up really good. But it was, it took me, I said to him at one point, is the rest of my life where I’m to have half a day where I’m not Sore because, because my workouts are like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I don’t even need to space them out because of the way they are. And he goes, yeah, pretty much. But, but it’s not true. And I mean in the last couple months I, I’m still, I still get sore or I still feel the effect of the workout for a day, day and a half, but I’m not getting sore the way I used to. I’m definitely able to tolerate more and I’ve been craving a little more volume, which he just tells me, no, you gotta rest. So it’s, it’s a bit of a push me pull you. I just, I’ve become more active on those non workout days because I do have the, I’ve built up a little tolerance which is very, very interesting. But at the same time, like last week, our leg day was an exercise I had not done and we pushed it, he’s pushing me really hard now and we pushed it really hard and I, it was five days till I could sit on a toilet without, you know, having a hard time getting on.

Brian McRae

And I want to do that anymore. I don’t want to do that.

Steven Sashen

Oh, I see. I, I like it. I mean, I mean I don’t mind.

Brian McRae

Hurting, but that’s why, I mean, I, you know, because I’m working out every day, I can’t do, I can’t do that type of workout.

Steven Sashen

So I have to, Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian McRae

As, as, you know, getting older and being not injury prone, but certainly being, having to watch injuries and having to change the way.

Steven Sashen

Right.

Brian McRae

Working out every day is kind of like the perfect signal because you just listen to your body. And so it’s, it’s been, I’d never done it before and I think that for me it’s also habit maintenance. I’m better if I can do something every day.

Steven Sashen

I’m, I’m, I’m, I have a similar thing like if I’m doing something for 10 minutes every day, it’s easier than doing, doing that, than doing 30 minutes three times a week or something like that for whatever, for whatever reason, the pushing hard thing I find very gratifying and satisfying. And I did, he did give me a compliment. I mean, this guy, if you work with him, his name’s Kevin Richardson, when the way you become a client of Kevin’s is he’ll give you a free workout and you see if you like it and he’ll give you leg day and. Yeah. And if you come back after that and say, yeah, I want to pay you a Not insignificant amount of money. You’re an idiot. And. And so. Yeah, I know. I mean, that’s how he weeds them out. And the thing he did say to me, he said, look, you know, so knowing that all of my clients. Clients, they push hard, just. I mean, you know, that’s what we all have in common. I have to tell you, you’re the winner. You know, you will. You will push harder. I mean, not that I’m not lifting more weight or whatever, but, you know, you will just keep going until you can’t over and over. And I go, well, yeah, that’s what you do, right?

Brian McRae

So that’s best. True. True to all areas of your life, Steven.

Steven Sashen

I would think if it’s something that I’m really into, yeah, I go in pretty far for whatever that. I mean, whatever that looks like. But the physical stuff is. It’s a different thing. Like my. I don’t know why I’m talking about this. My brain goes very wide. I’m not good at prioritizing. I’m good coming up with a whole lot of things. But when I do physical things, I need them to be short and intense. I’m a sprinter. When I lift, it’s the same way. I mean that for it. And I’m very focused when I do that. It’s a. My physical stuff is a whole different thing than my mental stuff. And I don’t know if that’s common or not, but it’s definitely. It’s just the way it works sense.

Brian McRae

For you as a sprinter, because you have to be like that. It’s like every little matters. Thousands matter.

Steven Sashen

Oh, no, it’s. It’s. It’s horrible because, like, at the end. Well, because you can never do it right or you never do it perfect. Like, at the end of every race, you know, people go, hey, how’d you do? And I’ve started answering, oh, can I just give you the time? Or can I give you the excuse and the time. Because there’s always an excuse. I mean, for all of us.

Brian McRae

So at least. At least you’re. You’re doing this in real life. It’s like you. You know, you, like, you have a race, you have a bad race and, like, stage or whatever. I have a bad race in a pretend race car that doesn’t exist, and my day is ruined the next day. I spend the whole day muttering to myself about what I did wrong or whatever. It’s. It’s insane.

Steven Sashen

Well, the. The thing that’s changed for me is that I know that things go Wrong. And when they do, I. I really don’t care so much anymore. I mean, like this indoor track season, I went to a race, and I didn’t get to race because, well, for the fun of it, you can look it up. If you didn’t hear about it on the news. A guy died, got hit. The hammer throw, it’s a different thing. It’s like the hammer throw is a weight at the end of a chain. The indoor, it’s a weight with a handle. And it cleared the. The barrier and hit a guy and he died.

Brian McRae

Oh, my goodness.

Steven Sashen

It was. I mean, I don’t. I don’t know who I felt worse for, the guy’s family or the kid who threw the thing and. Cause, I mean, holy moly. Um, so I didn’t get a race in the next week. I go to the CU Invitational. Warming up, felt great. And I went, let’s just come out of the blocks once before the race actually starts. And I. I set the blocks at a slightly different angle because I usually set mine at 45 degrees. They had either 40 or 50. I went to 50. So it’s a steep. Like a. Like, more. Worse. There’s more motion with 50 degrees than 40 degrees. And that little bit extra, that 5 degrees extra was just enough of a stretch response that my calf went, whoa, whoa, whoa. And my calf seized up, and then I was done for the day. It didn’t rip anything. It just, like. I just wasn’t used to that much stretch. And then I, you know, lost that day. And then the next week, we had, like, a snowstorm. So. But. But my response now is kind of like, oh, whatever. And, you know, I wasted a couple hundred bucks and what am I going to do? So you have a good race, you have a bad race. Don’t care so much.

Brian McRae

Short memory. Short memory.

Steven Sashen

That could be. Well, I’ve just lived through it. I mean, I’ve had enough times where I’ve gotten injured and gotten all upset, and then after a while, you just go, you know, it’s like when I was doing comedy. You have good sets, you have bad sets, and it takes a while. It takes quite a number of bad sets to know when it’s you versus the audience. Audience. And once, you know, sometimes it’s just not a big deal. I had one show that I’m going way off track. I did one show. It was a third show on a Saturday night midnight show, and I’m supposed to do 45 minutes, and I get up there and I do my opening joke, which I Don’t remember what it was, but, you know, it’s a. It’s a 100, and it got nothing. And then I do another joke that I knew is like, really strong and I got nothing. Then I do the bit that I close with, which is like, you know, a standing ovation, walk off, like kind of thing, nothing. And I just looked at the audience. Well, that’s the funniest that I got. Good night. And I walked off the stage and the club owner was on the floor laughing because he’s seen it happen to everybody. And just so you know, it’s like just. You roll with it. You learn to roll with it. That said, there was one time where as I was actually being featured on a television show and they taped me at Contra Rising Star one night in New York, and I crushed it. And the next night at a club in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and I couldn’t buy a laugh. And my girlfriend at the time, she’s now famous, and her father managed famous comedians. And afterwards I was very unhappy. And she said, is there anything I could do? I said, find me some chocolate cake and I’ll see you in the bedroom. And she goes, I can do both of those. Worked out okay. So, yeah, it’s. But it is interesting, you know, for being there. I. I guess the. The real thing that I’m talking about is, especially as we get older, finding the right way to handle having a competitive urge and what it means about winning and losing and training and actually competing and knowing there’s that. That intermittent reinforcement of sometimes it’s better than others, and that’s what you get coming back, back, or sometimes it’s worse, and that’s what gets you coming back. And, you know, it’s a fascinating psychological thing to explore. And so that’s really the theme of our last 10 minutes for anyone who is approaching any age, really, but certainly especially, you know, at this one, which is the time when people our age are prone to buying $225,000 cars and doing stupid things. So you just found a way to channel that in a way that is quite, quite brilliant.

Brian McRae

I, you know, this. That’s one of the reasons why I love it so much, is it’s. It’s enough of an escape to allow me to do something that I love to do without the risk, without the time, away from my family. And so it, you know, fills me up in the ways that I need it to. But like you said, I’m older, I don’t have. I don’t have the money or the time or the health to go out and you know, run a fast car around a real racetrack. So I do it here and I can express my love for the sport, grow my love for the sport, teach it, you know, follow it in different ways, but do it from home.

Steven Sashen

Speaking of following, can people like watch races that you guys are in?

Brian McRae

So our hourly broadcast, our Sunday night races are broadcast on YouTube and so there’s actually a live broadcast team that calls the race as it’s going, going down. And so that, that it’s just our league race is four nights a week. But that, that, that race is the only night that’s televised.

Steven Sashen

Well that’s the perfect segue to if people want to find out more about sim racing or they want to watch what you’re doing or just get in touch with you to find out more. How can they and should they do that?

Brian McRae

Yeah, there’s two ways. The best way is either on Facebook and so top flight Sim racing on Facebook.

Steven Sashen

Say it again, slow down.

Brian McRae

Top Flight sim racing. So all one word. We’re the same on LinkedIn. So I have profiles on both of those places. That’s probably the best way to get.

Steven Sashen

A hold of me. And then from there, if they want to, if they want to watch a race, which I imagine, I imagine, imagine could be very, very interesting. How do they do that?

Brian McRae

So that’s your best bets to go to YouTube and just go to Iracing. Go to Iracing’s main channel. They have really high fidelity broadcasts there. And then our league is called the OBRL. So if you go search for the OBRL on YouTube, you’ll find our channel and you’ll find all of our broadcast races there as well.

Steven Sashen

Oh, I love it. That’s not that. That’s definitely on my to do list now. Well, Brian, thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure and I hope, hope that really it just kind of not only inspires people to check out, you know, sim racing, which is fascinating, but just the idea of different things that you might be finding that you can do in a pair of zero shoes. It’s a bit, a bit self something or self serving to say that. But I mean I say it because I don’t think that people need to wear zero shoes for everything they do. There’s a time and a place. But what I found from talking to people like you or people who are into Dance Dance Revolution or you know, all these things that people contact me about where they’re going, your shoes are perfect for and they had, they didn’t know and they found out. You know, it’s like experiment and see. Because what I’m hoping is people can send some video or reach out and go, hey, here’s this crazy thing that I’m doing that you’re, you’re not going to believe is, you know, zero shoes are perfect for and have those conversations. Because that’s my favorite thing is discovering all the off label stuff that people do that where we can be helpful. So anyway, it was like striking gold.

Brian McRae

When it happens like that. It happens to be able to share that with other people so that other people can too. It’s, it’s, I’m really happy to be able to be able to do that.

Steven Sashen

Oh, well, well, thank you, thank you. It’s a pleasure to have your support. So for everybody else, just a reminder, head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. find previous episodes where you can find us on social, where you can reach out to contact us if you have any recommendations, suggestions, people that you think should be on the show. Especially if you know anyone who’s willing to be on the show who thinks I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, I would love to have a chat with them and find out things that I may be wrong about. I’m game. And again, you know, give us a good review somewhere where you can give reviews or a thumbs up where you do thumbs up or hit the bell icon and subscribe. You know, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. That’s the way it goes. But most importantly, whatever you’re doing, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Plantar Fasciitis: Myths, Lies, and TRUTH

marketdomination — Wed, 30 Apr 2025 00:00:47 +0000

Compensations in the body can lead to foot pain. Addressing the root causes of foot pain and adopting a comprehensive approach are crucial for long-term relief. Ditch the temporary fixes!

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Angela Walk, DC, The Plantar Fasciitis Doc. She has developed a six-step program to effectively address plantar fasciitis at home, challenging misconceptions about the condition. Her approach emphasizes transitioning to functional footwear with wide toe boxes and zero drop to promote natural foot function and reduce reliance on orthotics, which can weaken foot muscles.

Key Takeaways:

→ Why functional footwear is crucial in preventing conditions like plantar fasciitis.

→ How orthotics can weaken foot function and contribute to foot problems.

→ Why elevated heels in footwear can lead to gait issues and muscle tension.

→ Why plantar fasciitis rehabilitation should focus on strengthening lower leg muscles, not stretching.

→ How gradually transitioning to barefoot walking improves foot health.

Dr. Angela Walk, a distinguished sports chiropractor with 25 years of experience based in Nashville, Tennessee, is renowned for her expertise in treating plantar fasciitis and challenging the common misconceptions surrounding its treatment. Through her innovative six-step program, Dr. Walk critiques the traditional reliance on orthotics, cortisone shots, and static stretching, advocating instead for a focus on proper footwear and natural foot function. She emphasizes the importance of transitioning to functional footwear with wide toe boxes and zero drop, alongside incorporating barefoot walking and toe spacers to strengthen the foot and promote natural arch support. By sharing her insights on social media as the “plantar fasciitis doc,” Dr. Walk aims to educate the public on more effective, sustainable ways to manage and prevent plantar fasciitis, reaching a wide audience eager for accessible and practical advice.

Connect With Dr. Walk:

Dr. Angela Walk

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Connect with Steven:

Instagram
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TikTok

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen

What if everything almost anyone has ever told you about plantar fasciitis, what is causing it and what cures it is completely. I was going to say something more than wrong. Let’s just stick at it wrong. But this one really infuriates me for a bunch of reasons. We’re going to find out more about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting feet first, you know, those things at the end of your legs. And we break down the propaganda, the mythology and often the outright lies you’ve been told about how, how to run, walk, hike, do yoga, CrossFit, play basketball, pickleball, tennis, you name it, whatever you like to do and to do that enjoyably and efficiently and effectively. And wait, did I say enjoyably? Trick question. I always say enjoyably. I know what I’m talking about. So. Because look, if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to keep it up anyway. So that’s what we want to focus on. By the way, I’m Stephen Sashin, co founder and chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes and we call this the Movement Movement. Because we including you. More about that in a second. No pressure, don’t worry. We are creating a movement about movement, natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do and functioning optimally as a result. So the way you can help, it’s really straightforward. Spread the word, give us a, you know, good review. Give us a thumbs up on YouTube or thumbs up where you can. Thumbs up hit the bell icon on YouTube so you hear about these things when they come out. Give us a five star review where you can give five star reviews. You know the gist. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. You can do that@Xeroshoe.com sorry, at jointhemovementmovement.com which is the website. There’s nothing you do have to do there to actually join. It’s just the place where you’ll find previous episodes and a bunch of other information where you can find us online, etc, etc. I think that’s really all I need to say before we get started. And this will be fun. Dr. Angela Walk, a pleasure to have you here. Do me a favor, tell people who the hell you are and what the hell you’re doing here.

Dr. Angela Walk

Thanks Steven. I appreciate you having me here so much. I love having a platform to be able to share this information with people. Just like you said Plantar fasciitis. I don’t know what it is about this condition, but nobody seems to know how to treat it effectively. My name is Dr. Angela Walk. I am a sports chiropractor in Nashville, Tennessee. In my 25th year of practice, I actually no longer have a physical practice and must have my online business specializing in plantar fasciitis. I created a six step program to resolve plantar fasciitis at home.

Steven Sashen

I want to pause there. Let’s just get into the conversation about what we’re talking about, the confusion that people have about it, and then you can pitch to all, you know, whatever you need to do, but no need to do that yet. Let’s just get into it. Let’s get into the things.

Dr. Angela Walk

Sure, sure.

Steven Sashen

Well, let me. Hold on, let me, let me interject. So someone who was listened to this podcast on a regular basis, emailed me and said their wife was looking into issues about plantar fasciitis and found you. And then I looked at your content and went, we need to talk. Because I’ve been talking about this stuff for 16 years and I never heard anyone else talk about it similarly until I bumped into you. So let’s start with. I’m tempted to start with one of two things. One is the cause of plantar fasciitis. But the thing that makes me want to possibly move that a little bit later is the mythology about the cause of plantar fasciitis. Which one of those do you want to tackle first?

Dr. Angela Walk

Well, I, I think the mythology and, and there is just so much misinformation about plantar fasciitis. And you know, if someone just like the person that you mentioned were to want to tackle this condition and they go online, the first things that they’re going to see is let’s possibly get an orthotic. Let’s consider a cortisone shot. Let’s stretch your calf muscles with static stretching. Wear a walking boot, roll your foot on a frozen water bottle. I mean, these are just. And get, and here’s the one that you’ll enjoy that you’ve heard the most. And get a pair of these thick, cushiony, super supportive magic shoes. And this will fix your pf. And what I have discovered that none of those measures actually work. And they’re either short term band aids or they’re ineffective and they do not address the underlying cause. And so, you know, the number one cause of PF, in my opinion, and you know, others will agree, is wearing the wrong shoes. And this is your Jam. Right?

Steven Sashen

This is, you know, this is the thing that it blows my mind is that the thing that is the true cause. And we’ll talk about why, because this is the kind of thing that people go, but my doctor said, well, ignore that for a moment because everything that you and I are going to say, I’m confident is going to have people going, oh, that makes sense.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah, yeah. That light goes off. The light bulb goes off in their head and they’re like, oh, you mean I need to wear shoes that are shaped like my feet?

Steven Sashen

We’re not even there yet. We’re. The shape, like your feet is a part of it. But let’s just start with, you know, the shoes being a problem. The thing that blows my mind is when companies are selling a seeming solution that actually is the cause. And we can get into the biomechanics. But let’s. So let’s. Oh, boy, oh, boy. Let’s just talk about the shoe thing. So from your perspective. And then I’ll chime in if I think I have anything to add, and it’ll be awesome if I don’t. From your perspective, what specific things about what the shoes that most people are wearing is the actual cause of this problem.

Dr. Angela Walk

Okay. And a moment ago I alluded to my program and the reason I did that is because I have, you know, this particular program. The first step is to transition to functional footwear. And so what exactly is functional footwear? And that is footwear that is widest at the toe, that allows your foot to function as it should, that allows your feet to spread, your feet and toes to spread and splay as we walk and run. If your feet are unable to spread and splay as we walk and run and we’re cramming our feet into narrow toe boxes, it diminishes and robs your foot of its normal foot function. It creates atrophy and weakness of your. The intrinsic muscles of the foot, which I like to call your foot core, and leads to many foot conditions, not just plantar fasciitis, but bunions, aromas, hammer toes. Anything in the foot is the number one cause, is the narrow toe box.

Steven Sashen

So let’s. Since you mentioned the word orthotics before, and I’m not telling people not to wear them, there’s a time and a place and we can discuss that. But. But for many people, wearing orthotics on a long term basis can be another cause. Can you explain why?

Dr. Angela Walk

Yes. So orthotics are typically one of the first lines of strategy for plantar Fasciitis, and I believe they’re, you know, they’re over prescribed. Number one, there is a time and place, like you mentioned, but they’re also used for way too long. It’s often not an expiration date. It’s like, wear these orthotics and wear them for the rest of your life. So I believe in the early phase of plantar fasciitis, any of these measures that are helped to manage symptoms, that are designed to manage symptoms, is helpful. And I’m okay with that because it is an excruciating, debilitating pain syndrome. Orthotics, however, those are my little puppy dogs in the background. Sorry about that.

Steven Sashen

Oh, no, they’re fine.

Dr. Angela Walk

Orthotics actually rob your feet of normal foot function. I believe there was some early research and many foot practitioners kind of jumped on this research that showed that orthotics, that the cause of plantar fasciitis was excessive pronation. So I think a lot of foot practitioners kind of jumped on that and said, well, if it’s because of over and excessive pronation, then let’s limit pronation. However, what it does, orthotics lift and brace and limit normal movement and it weakens and atrophies the foot muscles.

Steven Sashen

So let’s, let’s.

Dr. Angela Walk

It creates.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, let’s.

Dr. Angela Walk

Lazy feet.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. So I wanna, I wanna highlight this one. So the way I like to say it, I like to say, to ask people, you know, here’s a question that’s gonna sound like a trick question. It’s not. It’s just a stupid question. And the question is, is weaker better than stronger? And people go, no. I go, cool, let’s talk about weaker. If I wanted to make my elbow joint weaker, what do I do? And they go, oh, don’t use it. I mean, people say that verbatim every time. I go, cool, Put your arm in a cast. All the muscles, ligaments and tendons get weaker because the joint isn’t moving. Guess what happens when you, quote, support one of the 33 joints and the 110 plus muscle, ligaments, tendons in your feet? Same thing. And when you try to then put those weakened things under strain, which you can be doing if you’re walking, running, whatever else, then they’re not able to handle that force. And that can create. Well, and we’ll talk about plantar fasciitis being misdiagnosed later, but that can create actual plantar fasciitis. And while I didn’t, I didn’t see that pronation study, but I guarantee it’s flawed for a number of reasons. But the, the one that I love. I posted this, God, literally probably 15 years ago. One of my favorite science writers, and I just sent her an email the other day saying how she’s one of my favorite science writers. Her name is Gina Colada, and she did a whole bunch of research on orthotics and found that they just don’t work. And if they seem to work, it’s for what you said. It’s giving you some relief by not having to use that musculature at all and put it under strain. But as we just pointed out, that makes a vicious cycle of making things weaker and weaker. So. And what people don’t get, I’m going to. I’m going to add a thing to this and see if you agree with this. A Most shoes that people are buying already have arch support built in, so that’s problematic.

Dr. Angela Walk

I was going to make that point. It’s not just orthotics, it’s also the built in arch supports and anti pronation technology in most conventional footwear.

Steven Sashen

And the anti pronation thing thing has never been proven to actually work. And so that’s a whole other conversation. But there’s one that I’ve been talking about and, and pardon me if I’m kind of jumping the gun to see whether you agree or not. And if you don’t, I’m totally cool with that. By the way, at the end of these, you’ll hear me say I’m always wanting someone to recommend, someone who I can bring on the podcast who thinks I’m completely full of. Because that’ll be a really fun conversation. It just hasn’t happened yet. But anyway, so this is one, this is, this is one of a theory of mine. You got a regular shoe with an elevated heel which just naturally changes your gait to over striding and heel striking. Landing with your foot too far in front of your body, your ankle landing in front of your knee when it does, by the time your foot comes down, it’s basically already flat, or as flat as it’s going to be because you’re not able to use your muscles, ligaments and tendons. I’ll say windlass mechanism to be fun for anyone who knows. And if you don’t, don’t worry about it. Basically, it’s a way that if you use your foot properly, it aligns all your bones correctly. It doesn’t matter. High arch, low arch, everything gets aligned correctly. Then you got your plantar fascia in an extended position at a point when you’re supposed to be exerting the most force and they just, it just can’t handle it. And an analogy that I’ve come up with lately, I say to someone, if I ask you to do body weight squats for a minute, could you do it? And they go, yeah. I go, two minutes? They go, yeah. Okay, now I want you to do a wall sit, put your back up against the wall, feet about 2ft in front of you, scooch down to your thighs are palau to the ground. Can you do that for a minute or two minutes? And everyone goes, no. I go, well, that’s what you’re asking your plantar fascia to do when they’re stretched and then put under strain. So it’s a whole different thing than what happens when you’re dynamically moving. Any thoughts on my current theory on another cause?

Dr. Angela Walk

No, I like that and I like the. That’s. That’s exactly what is happening with the plantar fascia is that movement deficiencies, deficiencies that occurring that are occurring further up the kinetic chain are leading to this excessive pronation and it’s putting too much stress on the plantar fascia and it wasn’t designed to withstand that type of pressure. So we could use. One of the most common findings that I see in most all of my patients when assessing my patients is short, tight calf muscles. And so when we’re seeing a tight calf muscle, we see if the, if the calf muscle is too tight and I’ve got a little Yorkie in my lap, sorry about that. She stays more quiet that way. If the calf muscle is short and tight, it limits the amount of ankle mobility or ankle dorsiflexion. Dorsiflexion is the action of bringing the foot towards the shin. If the calf is too tight, it limits ankle dorsiflexion, which causes a collapsing or an over pronation of the foot. Which is what you were talking about instead of the, instead of the heel. Upon heel strike, the heel should evert and this causes these muscles to become more mobile and allows that pronation. But when we go to toe off, the calcaneus of the heel muscle muscles should invert and cause a rigid lever. And that’s what’s not happening. So when we don’t get the rigid lever, we get hypermobility and too much motion here. And all of the stress is placed on that plantar fascia which again was, doesn’t have the capacity to deal with that type of stress. So yes, I agree with that.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. The. Not yet is.

Dr. Angela Walk

The.

Steven Sashen

Is a critical thing. There’s. You know, since you mentioned it that way, my experience has been that more often than not, there’s two things having a tight calf can be. So something further upstream can cause a problem downstream or causing problems in the foot. But I’ve also seen that more often than not, the tight calf is creating symptoms of plantar fasciitis that are not plantar fasciitis and are often misdiagnosed because people aren’t paying attention to the calf. And I have my favorite story that I tell. I was at a trade show a number of years ago. Guy comes up, big guy, like 6, 5, 2, 50, no body fat. He’s a special forces guy. And he said, you know, we’ve all switched to these minimalist shoes, and a lot of us got plantar fasciitis. And I just took one look at him. No, you didn’t. He said, what? I said, your calves are, like, way too tight. And I could just see it from a mile away.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right?

Steven Sashen

And I said, do. Do me a favor. Can I stick my thumb on your calf? He goes, okay. And again, you know, I got a knack for this. I could see the spot. I didn’t have to feel it. I just knew where it was. And I put my thumb on it, and I start to press, and this giant dude falls to the ground. Yeah, I just rub the crap out of his calf.

Dr. Angela Walk

It’s on fire. Yeah.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it was fun. And I. I just, you know, rubbed the crap out of his calf for about five minutes. And I said, get up and see how that feels. And he goes, oh, my God. That’s like 90% better. I said, cool, Go back to the base, talk to your pt, have her do that to all you guys for about a week, and let me know what. What happens. And he. He. I bumped into him a year later, and he said, my plantar fasciitis went away. I said, you never had plantar fasciitis. You had tight calves. You hadn’t gotten to the point of having plantar fasciitis because your feet were pretty strong. You were just having symptoms that looked like it, and no one knew any better. And that’s the one that I mean. And I’ve seen people, even after I show that to them, because I look like this and I don’t have the letters D R period before my name, they still go get surgery.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

So.

Dr. Angela Walk

Well, I. You know, the two most common causes of short, tight calf muscles that I have seen is number one is elevation in heel elevation and footwear. And so you know that. And we’re not just talking about women’s high heels. We’re talking about men’s shoes and casual shoes. And running shoes have a minimum of 5 millimeters, but often as much as 10 millimeters, which is the industry standard. And it’s baffling to me why shoe manufacturers add heel elevation in footwear. Because there is no that. There’s no foundation for that.

Steven Sashen

But do you know how it happened? Because I can tell you.

Dr. Angela Walk

Well, it. It happened with a running shoe. Correct. And I’d love to hear the story. Yeah.

Steven Sashen

So this is common knowledge among a small group of people, and we’ve all tried to spread the word, but it doesn’t go very far. So way back when Bill Barrowman and Nike, they were just getting started, they were sharing a building with some podiatrists, and Bowerman says, I’m getting these runners with Achilles tendonitis. What do you recommend? And the guys said, oh, clearly their Achilles have shortened from wearing higher heel dress shoes. So put a wedge of foam in there to accommodate their shortened Achilles.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right.

Steven Sashen

Cut to. Well, before I cut to. The footwear industry is a bunch of copycats. They’re terrified. They’re not very creative very often. So if something starts to sell really well, everyone else is, like, on it, like John Rice before, because they’re afraid they’ll go out of business. Otherwise. If everyone gets into that whole elevated heel thing, we better do it, or else we’re going to be.

Dr. Angela Walk

That’s right.

Steven Sashen

When the barefoot Boom started in 2009, when it was literally about running barefoot, shoe companies are saying, oh, my God, we got to do something. Otherwise, people will never buy shoes again. They’re freaking out. Okay, so cut to 30 years later when a friend of mine who worked directly with Bowerman at Nike was sitting at a track meet with one of these doctors, and he said. And so again, I kind of skipped over. Once they did the elevated heel thing, everyone started doing it. It’s been become ubiquitous. So my friend is sitting at a track meet with one of these doctors, and he said, you know, your idea became adopted by every major shoe company. Everyone’s been doing it for the last 50 years. What do you think about that? He said, it was the biggest mistake we ever made.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right.

Steven Sashen

Had no evidence for the Achilles shortening. And I’ll say something about that. We had no evidence or understanding of what the elevated heel would do to changing people’s gait to cause problems. And we were making prosthetics for everything. So we just looked at this immediate problem as needing a prosthetic solution without having done the research. And part of the research that I wish they had done would have been testing this whole thing about whether people’s Achilles actually shortened or if, like, when you get your arm out of a cast, it takes your brain a while to remember that it can move the arm can. You can have someone move it passively and it can be okay, but you can’t necessarily move it because your brain has learned to protect it. And I see it in runners in my neighborhood, even if they have a higher heel shoe, they’re not even let their Achilles stretch enough to let the heel come down to the ground in a higher heeled shoe. And then they put on something flat and they go, oh, see, this is hurting my Achilles. Like, no, no, no. Your brain just hasn’t given you the information that it’s safe to let it stretch, or you haven’t given your brain information to let it know that it’s safe.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah, and I liked your terminology with micro dosing, because people who are coming from. I read that in one of your blog posts or heard it on a podcast. But that’s so true. When people are coming from footwear with 10 or 12 millimeters of heel elevation to zero drop, it’s got to be a slow roll, because that calf in Achilles reacts to that. And when you were describing the runners that were going from, you know, traditional running shoes into the zero drop, zero drop, and having, you know, thinking that they had developed plantar fasciitis, I’m thinking, you know, your body has. Your foot and lower leg have not adapted to functioning as they should at the normal tension and strength of the Achilles and gastroc and soleus.

Steven Sashen

In fact, you know, something happened to me about a month ago that I hadn’t really thought of in this context until just now that really highlights this because it’s not only the ability to stretch, but the ability to do that under load and at a certain speed. So I’m a competitive sprinter. I was at a track meet. I’m warming up, I’m running. Everything felt great. I mean, I really was really looking forward to this race. And I decided to get out of the blocks once, just to do a start from the blocks once before the race started. Now, when I set my blocks, I set the angle at 45 degrees. The blocks I had at this track meet had either 40 or 50. And for some reason, I decided, let’s just set it to 50. And when I did my first start out of the blocks, the speed with which I got that little bit of extra strength was more than my brain was used to. And it just seized my calf. I didn’t pull anything. Yeah, I didn’t strain anything. It just seized up going, whoa, whoa. Too much, too soon, too fast.

Dr. Angela Walk

And I was too much, too soon, too fast. Exactly.

Steven Sashen

And I was really annoyed because I wanted to have that race, but.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right, right.

Steven Sashen

But it’s a lesson, like at, you know, and. And this is someone who’s really used to a lot of Achilles stretch, a lot of Achilles force, but that little bit of extra. At that speed, everyone, my brain went, whoa, whoa, whoa. Can’t do that. Actually, it was a reflex art thing, not even up to my brain. But suffice it to say, you know, you. Yeah, you’ve gotta. You can’t. Now, there are ways of accelerating the process of getting used to having your Achilles move more, which is like Feldenkrais work and things, where it basically tricks your brain into remembering that, oh, that’s safe. But even still, there’s still, you know, take your time, get used to something, etc. Etc.

Dr. Angela Walk

So. Yeah, so. So, you know, the. That first step in my program is to transition to functional footwear. And so I just want people to understand that, number one, we need to get your. Get you into shoes that allow your feet to function normally with a wide toe box and zero drop. And I know, obviously a lot of your listeners, you know, know a lot about that and have, you know, know a ton about that, including you. But I feel like if people were finding this podcast, I want them to understand that, number one, you know, when you’re wearing a shoe that’s narrow at the toe and has a tremendous amount of elevation of the heel, the very shoe that you were told to get to resolve your PF is making your plantar fasciitis worse or hindering your recovery.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, I mean, it could, you know, again, immobility can feel good for a time. Orthotics weren’t made to be worn full time. They were made for when you do have an actual tissue injury. The same way you’d put your arm in a cast rather than putting your foot in a cast. Let’s just immobilize it as much as we can. Not entirely.

Dr. Angela Walk

And I use the cast analogy. Yeah, for sure. I love that because, you know, the cast is. Is not all. It’s essential and necessary and initially. But once you remove the cast, then you’ve got to Start strengthening the muscles and the soft tissues that have been weakened from the immobility and that have atrophied. And so, you know, when people first come into the program and they’re wearing foot orthotics, I don’t just have them ditch them immediately. You know, we slowly transition them out of it as they are actively working on strengthening the muscles in the feet and in the lower leg and mobilizing those ankle joints and getting greater flexibility and, and when that and their pain begins to diminish and as that happens, then we start to say, hey, take Those out for 15 to 20 minutes and give yourself a go. You know, give it a go. Then put them back in and let’s do that for a little while. And just like you said, a little micro dosing. Don’t do too, too much, too fast, too soon. And that’s, that’s the way we deal with orthotic support. And you know, because as we mentioned earlier, they’ve been wearing footwear with the built in arch supports and they’ll say, hey, what about Birkenstocks? You know, it’s the same sort of thing. They are better, they do have a little bit wider toe box than most, but they still have the art support, you know, the built in art support.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, yeah, one of the, one of the, in those 15 minute bouts. One thing I, I say to people, if you can find somewhere that has like pea gravel walk on that. Because the only way to do that, you can’t, it’s, it’s unpleasant to over stride and heel strike. So you end up putting your feet more underneath your center of mass and engaging those muscles at a point where they’re already slightly strong to begin with. So it’s a way of strengthening. That’s a fun one. And I’ve had some people who’ve just gone out and bought a big, you know, 20 pound, 50 pound bag of pea Ravel and put it somewhere, put it like in a box so they could do it inside, somewhere outside so they could, they could do that. So, so we’ve talked about causes and I hope people get that. The fundamental thing we’re talking about. Oh, and by the way, even people who are, who are not necessarily barefoot shoe friendly and I know a few of them, I, we don’t talk about that too much, but they’re the first ones to say, look, if, if you, if you thought about this like going to physical therapy and the physical therapist said okay, great, I want you to wear these orthotics when you’re at Home. When you get back into pt, they’re going to take those out and they’re going to mobilize your foot and do all the things you’re talking about strength.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right.

Steven Sashen

Flexibility and dynamic motion. They’re just letting your foot rest when it needs to rest, and then you work on it in the clinic. And over time, they’re going to have you wear it less and less. And even, I mean, Ben O’Nig, who’s not been a huge fan of barefoot things, will say the whole point of an orthotic is to get out of it and build up strength again. And if you build up strength, you’ll never need them again. So that’s the cause side of things. And we. But we did both the mythology and the reality of that. On the cure side of things. Let’s talk about some of the mythology. And you alluded to one a couple times, which is static stretching. So that’s the first one that makes my head explode.

Dr. Angela Walk

Okay.

Steven Sashen

Talk about whatever.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. I mentioned earlier that, you know, when assessing most of my patients, they typically all have some degree of tightness in their calf muscles.

Steven Sashen

Sure.

Dr. Angela Walk

And so when they’re prescribed static stretching, oftentimes the remedy and what they hear is to stretch your calf muscles three times a day with static stretching and ice your foot three times a day. And we can get back to why icing is not the best method. But static stretching has its place. But for rehabilitation, strengthening is far superior to stretching. And even people will say, but my calf muscles are short. Yes, but I recommend active or dynamic stretching and even strengthening techniques. If you strengthen a muscle, you can lengthen the muscle. In my program, I recommend eccentric loading, which is a method of putting load on a muscle during the lengthening or slowly lowering part, and that also lengthens the muscle. So static stretching, let me define. That would be like a yoga stretch. 30, holding a stretch for 30 to 60 seconds. Active stretching incorporates movement or motion. And if you’re a runner, you are familiar with how we used to recommend static stretching for everything, and now it’s kind of shifted to active stretching. And I see you, you know, kind of rolling your eyes a little bit. But it’s the same with rehabilitation efforts. Strengthening has greater benefits for, you know, elongating and creating healthy muscle. So that is, you know, what, what we recommend. And again, static stretching has its place, and people love it, and it just feels good. But to get the biggest bang for your buck, focus on strengthening the muscles in the lower leg, leg, the gastrocnemius, the soleus, and The Achilles.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And so an example for. Of eccentric. I’ll do it outside of feet first because it’ll be easy for people to understand. Think about doing a curl. So the concentric is lifting it up, the eccentric is lowering it down. And the interesting thing, many people confuse just lowering slowly with eccentric, which is not the case. The whole value about eccentric is that you’re stronger in that lowering phase than you are in the lifting phase. So imagine you’re doing a curl and you’re curling up £20. I’m making up a number for the fun of it. What you could control on the way down could be £30, £40. I mean, much, much more. And the evidence is that that creates strength better as the muscle is lengthening. So it’s training your brain. Oh, that lengthening thing is safe. So a similar thing would be. And I’m going to ask you to do a correction for how people will take. What I’m going to say is if you were standing on a stair and elevating your toes, I mean, elevating up, lifting your heels up, that’s the concentric eccentric is the lowering down part. Now, if you’re not ready for that, you got to do that just right. But that’s one example for doing eccentric strengthening for the calf. And in fact, one way of doing it would be go up on both feet and then just down on one foot so you’re getting the extra load. But talk about how to help people deal with that in the real world if they’ve. If they’re dealing with, you know, seeming PF issues.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. And that’s actually one of the exercises, those two exercises that you mentioned. The first is the concentric, which is coming, but a calf raise just coming up on both toes and the eccentric. And I do recommend the just coming down on one leg because that increases the load. Just as the example you were showing with the biceps and. Yeah. And that. We get great results with that.

Steven Sashen

That was easy. Is there. Are there anything to be cautious about if they’re going to try that when they go home tonight?

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. And I typically, as I mentioned, it’s, you know, it’s a slow roll. People often are very weak in their calf muscles. And so I do recommend just kind of starting with the calf raise. Just a typical calf raise. I recommend squeezing the ball between your heels. This helps to activate the posterior tibialis tendon and the peroneal tendons. And these are often a part of the complex of plantar fasciitis. And that’s just, you Know having a ball, putting a ball between your heels and squeezing it as you’re going up into a calf raise.

Steven Sashen

I’ll give a personal endorsement for going slow. Excuse me. At one, I don’t remember how it happened, but I was doing some exercise program and it involved calf raises. And I did. I did them till I couldn’t. I did until I got to failure, which basically.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right.

Steven Sashen

Was about 150. And it felt. Felt fine. I mean, really no big deal until the next day, right? Yeah, it was. It was a while till I could walk like a human being. But so it is easy for some people, I have found, to really overdo it and really not know it till the next day. And, you know, I joke that the problem with the idea of don’t do too much too soon is you only know if you’ve done that when you did it, you’ve done too much too soon. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

So start small.

Steven Sashen

Like, you know, start small, see how you feel the next day. Build up slowly because calves unlike any other, because we use them all the time, so they’re built really to handle a lot of repetition in a way that, you know, your biceps or your whatever else aren’t. So you can get faked out by thinking that it’s cool and not so cool the next day. So. Okay, so other. Anything else on the mythology about the cure. Cures that people are usually offered and by the way, when There was a SkyMall magazine, it used to completely make my head explode that there was at least 10 ads for different or similar products for basically just doing static stretching for plantar fasciitis. Something. I mean, just crazy ideas.

Dr. Angela Walk

Well, that, I mean, the few industry. And. And these other types of devices, sleeves, braces, all of these different types of supports, are making millions off of people with plantar fasciitis. Because is this. It is so painful and debilitating and people. And there’s so much conflicting information. They’re just not really. Which, you know, which way to turn. And honestly, you know, these type of passive approaches do nothing to change your condition. They do not improve strength, they do not improve tissue quality, and they do not make your foot more resilient. So I have on a daily basis, 10, 15 emails. What do you think about this particular compressive, you know, compression sleeve? Or what do you think about, you know, this shoe and that shoe or this orthotic? And so, you know, people are just really lost. And, and, and it’s understandable because that’s all the information that’s out there.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, you Know, by the way, it just occurred to me I’m going to back up way far to the beginning of our conversation. I don’t know if this is true or not, but it occurred to me that it might be. And I’m curious about what your opinion is. Some people might end up getting. I mean, I brought up the idea before that tight calves are mistaken for plantar fasciitis or the tight calves could cause plantar fasciitis. Is the thing that you brought up as well. I’m wondering how much tight calves are actually an effect of an initial bit of strain on the plantar fascia, basically trying to compensate for some, you know, like something before you even notice that you have something that would be plantar fasciitis. And we can talk about plantar fasciitis versus fasciosis. We’ll do that too. But maybe you get like a little strain in the plantar fascia and the calf tightens to try to protect that. And then there may be, you know, kind of an. A bad feedback loop doing that. So it may be that that’s actually a symptom as much as it is a cause or a faux cause, if you will. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Dr. Angela Walk

It’s kind of chicken or the egg sort of thing. Does it, you know, does.

Steven Sashen

It’s really.

Dr. Angela Walk

No. Does it.

Steven Sashen

It’s pretty academic, but it just popped in my head. I was wondering.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. And you know, what I have found, too, is that it’s something like what you’re talking about. It’s compensations.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

When. When we talk about compensations, we’re talking about when one part of the body is failing or not functioning normally. Our body has to borrow an action from another part of the body to complete the action. And that other part of the body may not be designed or capable of handling that stress. So in other words, if one part of the body’s not working as it should, there’s a compensatory action. You got to steal an action for over here, and then it puts too much stress on this place, and then there you have the breakdown. So it is kind of, you know, it’s kind of hard to determine, you know, did the breakdown occur here first and cause the calf muscles to react, or was it the tight calf muscles that caused. And the plantar fascia to react? Yeah, yeah.

Steven Sashen

Ultimately academic, because what the important thing on the treatment is going to be the same. And actually, when you said it that way, I’m reframing my theory anyway, to be that if you are wearing something that. That isn’t orthotic or is something supporting the plantar fascia, that the fact that there is no. That there’s. That laxity in those tendons could make the calf try to take over again. Right. Hadn’t thought of it that. With that version of the loop before. So. Okay. Any other things on the mythology side for treatment?

Angela Walk

Well, I did. We alluded to a moment ago regarding plantar fasciitis versus plantar fasciosis.

Steven Sashen

Wait, pause on that. Because there’s one that we didn’t mention. Ice, or you mentioned, but we didn’t dive into. Let’s talk about icing.

Dr. Angela Walk

That’s right. So that’s. That’s what I’d like to get into. So any health condition that has the suffix at the end itis indicates an inflammatory response. So in the case of plantar fasciitis, following that rule, it would be an inflammation of the plantar fascia, which is the connective tissue on the bottom of the foot. However, about 20 years ago, there was some extensive studies by a prominent podiatrist. His name was Harvey Lamont. He did a study on 50 patients with chronic PF, and in every case, he found no inflammation. And so this kind of flipped the script a little bit. Right? I mean, it was a, you know, a discovery that no one had really thought about before. So if that’s the case, and there’s no inflammation in these chronic plantar fasciitis patients, and we’re treating it with rolling your foot on a frozen water bottle with ice, getting cortisone. Cortisone shots, resting, completely bracing it, then you’re not treating the underlying cause. A more appropriate name would be plantar fasciosis, which indicates fasciotic tissue or cellular death. So what he discovered is that a particular muscle, some soft tissues, were encroaching on one of the primary arteries to the foot, mainly due to narrow toe box shoes, and it cut off the blood supply. So wherever beyond where that blood flow was being encroached, the cells were dying. That is called fasciotic tissue. So that was his discovery. And so it changed the way, really, that we think about plantar fasciitis forever. So, you know, treating that. Let me say this, with any injury, there’s always an inflammatory response, right? Initially, initially, and it may be just a few days. But if you have had plantar fasciitis for longer than two to three weeks, inflammation is not your problem. So that. That’s big stuff, because you know, I can remember when I was first treating people with pf, and I didn’t really have some of this knowledge. We were all telling everybody to ice their foot three times a day, and this was only further restricting necessary circulation, but also prolonging healing.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

So, I mean, you know, and this was a big debate in the rehab world, and all of us now are coming around to that. You know, we all learn to put ice on an. Any musculoskeletal skeletal injury within the first 24 to 48 hours and beyond. You know, if you sprain your ankle, if you twist your knee, if you hurt your back, you put ice on it, and you keep putting ice on it. And we know now that that is not the best method.

Steven Sashen

It’s. It’s often misrepresented. Like, I had both of my shoulders put back together. Thank you for being a gymnast way back when. And so. Okay, so, you know, they had a. A. An ice machine that I had on practically 24/7.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right.

Steven Sashen

But they were pretty clear. It’s like, it’s less about. Let’s say it’s not so much about the inflammation for what we just did to put you back together. It’s for the inflammation around everything else for what we did to get to where we had to put you together, but also for just dealing with the pain. We’re numbing the crap out.

Dr. Angela Walk

It numbs the area. Yeah. And so that’s another one of those things that, you know, patients say, hey, it just feels good and it hurts less.

Steven Sashen

Right.

Dr. Angela Walk

You know, kind of going back to the orthotic issue. You know, if that’s the case. And we’re just trying to get you through this to get out of pain, or they’ll come to me and say, document. I’ve got to have some. Something for pain. You know, I just went and had a cortisone shot, and I feel better. I know it’s not helping anything, and it could have some considerable side effects, but I feel better, and I can get out of the bed without excruciating pain. So, you know, what do you say to that? Hey, do that. But let’s get busy. Let’s get busy working on the strength of your foot and targeting what’s causing your issues.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, I. I mean, it is interesting, the whole icing thing, because even in my early gymnast days. So literally 50 years ago, because I’m old. 50 years ago, if we got an injury, which we did all the time, we didn’t just do ice. We did ice alternating with heat. So it was just about just enough ice until things got a little red and then heat to keep things moving. So it was about keeping the circulation going. And I want to highlight something. You said that that is huge. And people don’t really appreciate it because we don’t have an experience of it. And that is when you squeeze your toes together, when you basically invert that first big. That big toe, when you push that into the middle, it literally does shut down a bunch of circulation into your foot.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

And that is an. I mean, it’s crazy town. You would never do that to any other part of your body. And the problem is we just don’t feel the effect of it fast enough to recognize that’s what we did. Especially if you’re only in pointy toe shoes. You don’t even have a choice or that. Or you don’t think you have a choice. And so you wouldn’t notice it anyway because you’ve kind of habituated to this thing that is. Can be a cause of, like you said, that cellular death. That is plantar fasci. Fasciosis, even though we call it fasciitis. Whatever. Not the important.

Dr. Angela Walk

I know. I. To keep it simple and just. I. I’ve always just kind of referred to it as that. But I make a point and I’m. I’m very intentional about educating my patients on. On the difference.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And then they can be obnoxious at dinner parties by going, no, I have plantar fasciosis, you idiot.

Dr. Angela Walk

Then I’d have to change my name to the plantar fasciosis doc.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. Then nobody would find you. So that, that.

Dr. Angela Walk

That’s right. You know what? That’s. That’s part of my thought process there.

Steven Sashen

Well, you know, it’s like people argue about, well, barefoot shoes. You’re either barefoot or you’re in shoes. Well, look, I didn’t make up the search term. That’s what people started looking for. If we’re going to. If we’re going to sell a product, we have to be in front of people when they’re looking for you.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

Just the way it is. And so anything else that we can think of on sort of causes and treatment, because I think we’ve really nailed it. Unless I’m.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah, there was a couple of things you mentioned. Barefoot walking. And I, I wanted to talk a little bit about that because it’s part of my program. And when people in the early phase of PF, where they’re in a ton of pain, even thinking about walking barefoot Terrifying is excruciating. And however, walking barefoot is one of the healthiest things you can do for your feet, and it naturally strengthens your foot and your foot core. And I also recommend toe spacers. And that is a tool that is designed to stretch and realign your toes to broaden the base of the foot from the damaging effects of narrow toe shoes. But it also helps to activate the arch muscles and gives you natural arch support. So I do recommend for people to slowly begin to introduce their feet to barefoot walking. Even, you know, sadly, I have such a great outreach now, and I’m in contact with so many people with pf and they all. Many of them will say, I was told to never walk barefoot, that before my feet even hit the floor, I need to put on my shoes. And the only time that I shouldn’t wear shoes is in the shower. And so, you know, they wear these foot coffins. And so I’m trying to just sort of completely flip that and say, hey, we want you to not wear shoes as much as you can. Start with five minutes, work up to 10 minutes. You know, work up to 15 minutes. But that’s one of the healthiest things that you can do to strengthen your feet.

Steven Sashen

Agreed. Then the research is very clear, even in a truly minimalist shoe. And I want to highlight something about that. And a second. Yeah, just walking in a minimalist shoe builds foot strength as much as doing an exercise program, which doesn’t mean you don’t need to or shouldn’t do both, because the study didn’t have a cohort that did both to show the effects of that. Yeah, but. And this is not rocket science. It’s use it or lose it. Like we said, support things. They get. Use them, they get stronger. And use them more. They get stronger, more. The highlight I want to make is there. In the last mostly five years, there have been more and more companies coming on with shoes that they’re calling minimalist or barefoot that fundamentally often are not. And the big thing that they’re doing, I’ll say incorrectly or that are. That violates the principle of a truly barefoot shoe is the soles are too thick and too much cushioning. And this was true back in 2010 when the big shoe companies were doing this and saying, hey, it’s a barefoot shoe. And it’s like, no, no, too much cushion, too narrow, for example, as well. And the. The reason this is a problem is twofold. We talked about it, but I’ll highlight it. One, those things aren’t as flexible, so you’re not getting the motion that you need and you’re also not getting the feedback through that foam that your brain needs to know how to move things properly. And it’s, on the one hand, you know, more power to all of us for getting the word out. But it does muddy the waters a bit in a way that is problematic. I mean, Irene Davis’s research when she was at Harvard showed that what she called a partial minimalist shoe, too narrow, usually in the mid foot or too much cushioning is the worst thing for you because it’s not enough cushioning to protect you from the bad form that you will still have because you’re not getting the feedback from that shoe. So just wanted to highlight that.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. And they call them a transitional shoe, except that it’s. And it is a shoe shoe that, you know, it’s defined as a shoe that has the characteristics of a barefoot shoe but with more cushioning.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And they call it a transitional shoe because that, in fact, I think it was Adidas. Or again, if you’re going to be obnoxious at a dinner party and say plantar fasciotis, fasciosis, double down on your obnoxiousness and call the company Adidas, because that’s what it really is. Adidasler. Anyway. Right. They, they came up with that term because they weren’t going to go to a truly quote barefoot shoe. Right. They actually said, if you’re starting at 10 mil, go from 10 to 7 to 5 to 3 as a way of selling more shoes. That did not produce the benefits that they were claiming.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah, yeah.

Steven Sashen

So it’s. And there’s a bunch of research that’s come out lately that’s not great because a lot of this research is not looking at the right thing. And what I mean by that is what we’re really talking about when I talk about footwear, we’re talking about form more than footwear. It’s just that certain footwear informs your form differently. And very little of the research on this is actually looking at gait and looking at force production during the gate cycle. So there are some people saying, oh, you know, transitional shoe, which they don’t even define, clearly can be helpful, but it’s, I would argue, more helpful to just go cold turkey, except in very short bouts. Again, like we talked about micro dosing, like you’re saying orthotics, go barefoot for five minutes. Same thing. You don’t need to go lower, lower, lower. Just go all the way down and just a little bit at a time, building it up as you feel you’re ready.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Sashen

I mean, this is, you know, it’s so funny. Like, we. We don’t even think about this in other contexts. Or more accurately, this all makes sense in other contexts. Like, you go to the gym, you haven’t been for a while, you don’t throw £300 on the bar and try to squat. You put.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right, right.

Steven Sashen

Put something on the bar where you hope no one who knows you sees you because it’s so embarrassingly light. And you do a few reps and you hope no one sees you, especially someone you might think is attractive. And then you do one set and you get out of there before they know you were even in town. And then you again, you build it up slowly as you can. Makes total sense in the gym. Now, granted, a bunch of bros will go in there and, you know, load up what they were doing in college, saying, I can still do that. It’s like, okay.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. And I’m not opposed to a transitional shoe. In the early phase of pf, when they first come into the program and they’re. They’ve been wearing a stack height of 30 millimeters or higher.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

You know, I mean, most of the shoes that unfortunately, that most practitioners will recommend for plantar fasciitis have a minimum of 30 millimeters and up to 38 millimeters of stack height. And so there are some brands, and I don’t know if I can mention those here, but like Ultra Flux footwear, these are some transitional shoes.

Steven Sashen

I want to be clear about that because Altra has now started making super thick things as well. So let’s be.

Dr. Angela Walk

They have.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And so let’s be clear, first of all, when we talk about.

Dr. Angela Walk

And they also have added heel elevation to. I know some of their footwear, which just broke my heart, but not as.

Steven Sashen

Much as the founders, who are friends of mine. I mean, they’re very unhappy, but there.

Dr. Angela Walk

Was some changes that went down there. But. Yeah, but I. There are some ultras that do have, you know, 20 millimeters, 23 millimeters of stack height. And starting there is not terrible. But as you progress in my program, I recommend a full transition to barefoot or zero drop footwear or no little to no stack height.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And to be clear, for people who don’t know stack height, the easiest way to think of it is the distance between the ground and you and your. The bottom of your foot. Not entirely.

Dr. Angela Walk

And this would be an example of a transitional shoe. It is zero drop, and it does have a wide toe box. But this is stack height. It is the amount of material on the bottom of the shoe.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And there was another point that I was going to make about that, but I can’t remember it. So that’s okay.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. You know, I have some little visual aids here and it kind of prompted me to remember. And one thing that I recommend for my patients to do is to try the shoe liner test for them to.

Steven Sashen

I’m going to argue with this one. Significantly do it. But I’m going to argue. I’m going to have it. We’re going to not going to have an argument, but I’m going to point out the, the problem with this one. But.

Dr. Angela Walk

Well, okay, but here’s what I recommend, here’s what I recommend for people to do. Go take the top. The five shoes that you wear most often.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

Lay the insole out on the floor and if your feet or toes extend over the shoe liner, then that is contributing to your plantar fasciitis. Now, I’m not, I only refer to the toe box. So what was your argument there? I’m curious.

Steven Sashen

Well, my argument is that people are using that information differently. They’re using it to determine whether or not a barefoot shoe is going to fit and.

Dr. Angela Walk

Oh, oh, I see.

Steven Sashen

And that’s the problem is that because people are looking at a two dimensional thing. And first of all, look, the, the liner of the shoe is by definition more narrow than the shoe because it fitting.

Dr. Angela Walk

It is. Right.

Steven Sashen

And secondly, your foot is a three dimensional thing and so is the shoe. So there are many shoes where the sole, especially a minimal shoe, can, your foot can extend past the width of the sole appropriately. The shoe is designed for that and the shoe will fit. So people use this thing of like. And even more, they’ll put their foot on the insole and then spread their toes as much as they can go. It’s like, no, no, no, that’s not what your foot ever really does.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right, right.

Steven Sashen

So my favorite story about this is not even someone coming in and putting their foot on the insole and saying, hey, it’s not wide enough for me. But someone came up to us at a trade show and said, I’m a Ford ee. Can I try on your shoes? And we went, yeah, I don’t know.

Dr. Angela Walk

Wow.

Steven Sashen

It’s just a two dimensional measurement and your foot and the shoe are three dimensional. So he, we said, we don’t know. He goes, let me try. And he put on one of our shoes and it fit him perfectly because he had a wide foot 2 dimensionally. A lower volume foot, 3 dimensionally, the circumference was smaller than somebody with a very high arch, for example. So we’ve seen that often. So now I have a, I get that I’ve got a patent for a way of solving this problem, but I can’t say more than that at the moment.

Dr. Angela Walk

Okay, well, I think the point that I like to, I use it to prove a point, the shoe liner test, to say, hey, take the insole out of those brooks and stand on it. And, and you’ll see. Or. And then take the insole out of your Xero shoes and compare the two. Well, right.

Steven Sashen

You held up a shoe before. And I just do the simple version. I just hold up a pointy toe shoe and go, is that the shape of your foot?

Dr. Angela Walk

Right.

Steven Sashen

Like, you know, sometimes with like a new balance, they go, well, it’s wide at the ball of my foot, but then it gets pointy. I go, if that’s the shape of your foot, guess what? It ain’t supposed to be.

Dr. Angela Walk

Right. Right. I’ll have. Patients will ask, I got a wide shoe. Isn’t that the same as a wide toe box shoe? Well, no, a wide shoe is widest at the forefoot and wider throughout the shoe, but not widest at the toe.

Steven Sashen

Well, I also, you can feel free to use this line if you like it. After I point at their shoes and go, is that the shape of your foot? And they go, no. I go, cool. What problems might you have at the end of the day, the week or a year by shoving a foot shape thing called, you know, a foot, like your foot into a non foot shaped thing? And I literally do this. I put my fingers like over their shoe and to kind of emphasize it. And then they’ll spend the next five minutes telling me about all the foot problems they had that they thought were just natural. It’s like, right? No, they’re not. So that’s like our first wake up. All right, wait, you had any other, any other things to show and tell? You said you had other visual.

Dr. Angela Walk

Well, I, another, I think critical part of my program is addressing the fascial system. And that is a deeper conversation. But I do, but it’s one of my favorite topics. It’s something that I have been using and addressing in my practice for 25 years very successfully. And I use it. I teach people how to remove fascial adhesions in their foot and lower leg using a fascia release tool on themselves. And plantar fasciitis is, can be a repetitive strain in an overuse strain where you’re putting too much stress on your feet.

Steven Sashen

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

And when that occurs, adhesions occur in the fascia. And that’s just an important part of my program is to release that. And people see significant improvements because it is often the source of their pain and immobility. Often when people are experiencing tightness in their muscles, it’s really restricted fascia.

Steven Sashen

Yeah. And for people who don’t know, I’ll do the world’s fastest version. You can elaborate. The fascia is basically, it’s not only a covering of around the muscles, but around pretty much every organ you have, but also it goes through the muscles as well. Think of it like. I’ll do the world’s worst analogy. Think of that like a sausage casing. And then just imagine that. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

Oh, that works.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, it’s not bad. And then just take a part of that sausage casing and make it extra tight for some reason, just like a little, you know, piece of it. That’s kind of what we’re talking about. Yeah. And. And for vegetarians out there, my apologies.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. I mean, fascia should glide smoothly and when it adheres, it becomes rigid and tight and usually the source of restriction. So pretty important part of resolving plantar fasciitis is to kind of dig into those adhesions and scar tissue that form from repetition and from wearing the wrong shoes and that sort of thing.

Steven Sashen

Given. Given what we’ve done in this conversation where I know. I’m. I was going to say not stepping on toes when I say it this way, knowing that you are a smart human being. I know that you will. I’m. I will put. I’ll put money on the fact that you’re going to agree with me about this one. That many people who’ve heard about planet about fascia and have heard about fascial release, they hear about it like, oh, just roll over a lacrosse ball or some variation thereof. And that. Right. What we’re talking about.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. The difference in rolling the lacrosse ball and using fascia release is it’s a very specific or targeted technique where you locate the adhesions. And when you have adhesion development, it’s usually very tender. So let’s take, for example, an elbow condition where, you know, overuse issue of the elbow. When you have healthy tissue, it’s usually very smooth. When it’s unhealthy, it’s rigid and bumpy and tender. So this technique, using a stainless steel instrument versus, like a lacrosse ball, we’re actually targeting those adhesions and restoring that normal motion, which is why it’s called instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization. You’re mobilizing, mobilizing that tissue. I also encourage movement and motion. So, for example, you’d be going into this. Kind of hard to describe with that, but you would be.

Steven Sashen

We’ll do an easy one. So let’s just do the. The motion part first. That will. Here we’ll break it down. So one version is using again, a device like you’re showing, which is just think of a big metal spoon for people who are just listening. Just start. So imagine that you’re moving this spoon along your calf and you find a spot that feels tight and is painful. So the motion part could be flexing and pointing your toes and flexing your foot.

Dr. Angela Walk

That’s right.

Steven Sashen

And then if you add the movement part with that spoon, as you’re moving the spoon back and forth along the calf at the same time. So you’re getting this double whammy of trying to make things a little more flexible while you’re going through a range of motion where it could impact what you’re doing.

Dr. Angela Walk

This is the better. Restores mobility.

Steven Sashen

Yes, this is exactly right. This is the way smart people are doing it. There’s a lot of people who are not that smart. So. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

And you’re a runner, right? I’m sure most runners have one of these.

Steven Sashen

No, no, I’m a sprinter. I’m not a runner. I run 160. I don’t take turns. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t have a GPS watch, so I don’t even take turns on the track is the way I say it. I don’t like getting lost. I. I go very short distance as fast as I can.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah. Not a runner here. I’m an avid pickleball player. And. And I want to ask you about some of your new versus for. For pickleball and maybe a different topic.

Steven Sashen

Well, here it’s really easy. We released this basketball shoe that’s being called the X1X1.

Dr. Angela Walk

That was my question for you.

Steven Sashen

So we, we made it as a basketball shoe and people in the NBA and WNBA are wearing it. And a lot more are going to be doing it by next season. We, not surprisingly, it’s just a great court shoe. People are using it for tennis, they’re using it for pickleball. They’re using it for. Pretty much. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Walk

I noticed that it had a little bit more of the lateral stability a bit. And I, you know, right now I play in the kelso in the 360.

Steven Sashen

I was going to say those are both great shoes, the fours.

Dr. Angela Walk

Yeah.

Steven Sashen

We even have people who play pickleball in the Speed Force, which is our closest thing to barefoot shoe. It’s okay. The one time I played and I have an allergy to pickleball. The one time I played, I was in the Speed Force. It’s totally fine. It’s just what you’re, what you’re comfortable with. I mean, I.

Dr. Angela Walk

Okay. Yeah, well, I, you know, I typically play, like I said, probably the Kelso more than anything, but I wanted to ask you about the X1 because it’s new and I saw another pickleball player wearing them and he, he had the high tops on. And I thought, well, what is this? And I come home and, you know, search and see, and I, I like the white one. So I think I’m going to give those a go for pickleball.

Steven Sashen

It’s, it’s an impressive shoe. And we’re, we’re. I’ll confess, we’re not aggressively promoting it. It’s just an overall court shoe at the moment. Getting so much from, you know, basketball.

Dr. Angela Walk

It’s about time. I’m so excited.

Steven Sashen

Yeah, don’t get me started. Anyway, more importantly, let’s cut to the, let’s cut to the chase for people who want to find out more about what you’re doing and how you can be helpful. If they want to find out more about your program or just follow you in general, let them know how they can do that.

Dr. Angela Walk

Okay. My website is Dr. Angela walk dot com. Dr. Angela walk dot com. I also have an Instagram account. It’s the plantar fasciitis document. I also have a YouTube channel, and it’s the plantar fasciitis doc.

Steven Sashen

Perfect. Well, Angela, thank you so much. As I expected, this was a total pleasure. Not just because you have a giant agreement party, but, you know, it’s nice to hear someone who’s really been exploring this and found, found, you know, I don’t want to say the right information, but it’s just, you know, if you really look at this stuff logically and question things, it’s. You end up with the truth and that’s what you’ve done. So, you know, many, many thanks for what you’re doing. Anyway, for everyone else, please do check out Angela’s web page and her Instagram or her social and et cetera, et cetera. Grab the program if you are having plantar fasciitis and let us both know what the effect of doing that is. And just a reminder, head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. there’s nothing you need to do to join. It’s not a club. That’s just the domain that I got. But it’s where you’ll find previous episodes, all the places you can find us on social media, how you can engage with us. If you have anyone you want to refer to me, someone you think should be on the show. And like I said, if it’s someone who thinks I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, I’m all game to have that conversation with them. Drop me an email for that or any other reason at move M O V E. Join the movement. Movement.com and most importantly, until whatever’s next, go out, have fun fun and live life feet first.

No Pain, No Gain… NOT!

marketdomination — Wed, 26 Mar 2025 00:00:11 +0000

At 44, Ariana Hakman is rekindling her passion for sprinting while exploring new horizons in Master’s Track and Field, symbolizing her belief in the power of continual goal-setting and embracing new challenges.

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Ariana Hakman, Founder and COO of LunaFit. In this episode, Ariana champions a holistic approach to fitness that evolves with age and personal growth. With a competitive track and field background, she uniquely understands the necessity of setting adaptive fitness goals, especially for those transitioning from high-intensity sports.

Key Takeaways:

→ Why it’s crucial to find physical activities you enjoy for your overall well-being.

→ How simple habit changes and staying active leads to lasting improvement in health and fitness.

→ Why you should evolve your fitness goals to keep yourself motivated and fulfilled

→ How prioritizing sleep helps with weight loss and overall wellness.

→ Why consistency, discipline, and focusing on protein intake will help you reach your fitness goals.

Ariana Hakman is the founder and COO of LunaFit, a health and fitness brand revolutionizing wellness through technology, nutrition, fitness, and community. With her husband, Rich, and a dedicated team, she has built multiple businesses, including a gym, a meal prep company, a supplement company, and an innovative app launching in January. Ariana aims to empower busy individuals to achieve their health goals through simplified solutions and meaningful connections. A dynamic entrepreneur and speaker, she shares her journey of resilience and purpose-driven growth while championing her team’s collective vision.

Connect With Ariana:

LunaFit

Free Giveaway: Health Made Easy

Connect with Steven:

Website

Xero Shoes
Join the MOVEMENT Movement
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Instagram
Facebook

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

Living in and around Boulder, Colorado, there are a lot of super fit people. I see them out on the trails. I see them out on tracks. I see them climbing mountains, and by and large, they rarely look like they’re having a good time. Is that what it takes to be fit? We’re going to find out more about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first, usually because those things at the end of your legs are in fact your foundation.

We also break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the outright lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, do yoga, CrossFit, whatever you like to do, and to do it enjoyably and efficiently and effectively. And did I say enjoyably? Of course I did. It’s a trick question. I always say that. Because if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to keep it up anyway. So we’re going to talk about that more on today’s podcast.

I am Steven Sashen, co-founder and chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes. And we call it the Movement Movement because we, and that includes you; more about that in a second; are creating a movement about natural movement. Having your body do what it’s made to do instead of getting in the way with things that are sold as benefits but aren’t necessarily that.

So the way you help the movement is really simple. Just spread the word. So go over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. You’ll find all the places you can enjoy this podcast if you’re not liking the one where you already found it. You’ll find all the previous episodes of which there are a lot, and you can enjoy those. You’ll find all the places you can find us in social media. And just give us a thumbs up, give us a five-star rating. Look, you know the drill. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe.

So here we go. Ariana, do me a favor. Tell people who you are and what you are doing here and then let’s have some fun. Except for the fact that you’re frozen, which is not very much fun. Now you’re not frozen. Right before you froze, that was brilliant, I said tell people who you’re and what you’re doing here so we can then have some fun. And then you were totally frozen, which is a very entertaining way of getting the ball rolling. So here we go.

Ariana Hackman:

Great introduction. Yeah. My name is Ariana Hackman. I’m the owner of the LunaFit Universe. It encompasses many things: a fitness center in central Florida, a meal prep company, a small health and fitness supplement company, and a fantastic mobile app that we are launching.

Steven Sashen:

So we’re having some glitchy audio video things so let’s deal with that because it hasn’t been too bad. Just cut out for a second or two. But if it gets bad, bad, we might have to restart things. But let’s keep going if we can.

Ariana Hackman:

Okay.

Steven Sashen:

So first things first, for those people who are watching, you have the most colorful background and most interesting background of anyone that I’ve ever talked to. So you got to just tell me what the hell is going on there. And if anyone is not watching, go check out the video because maybe the glitch is because you’re clearly talking to us from outer space.

Ariana Hackman:

Yes, I am all about outer space. Know LunaFit is about the moon, and our whole app is actually space themed. So we do the space thing at Lunafit. So when I asked for a podcast room that really would just be functional, this is what my marketing and creative team came up with, and it’s really super simple, super cheap. It’s just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. It’s literally some foam, black panels on the back wall, two lights that we got off of Amazon, and then a moon lamp. But it looks amazing, and I love sitting in here.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. You really could have sold the story and told people that you’re on the space station or something else so I’m going to pretend that that’s what you said, and we’ll just edit that.

Ariana Hackman:

I know.

Steven Sashen:

Because that’s way more fun than spending a couple bucks on Amazon. But I love it. I just have a few grand worth of shoes behind me, but-

Ariana Hackman:

Yes, I like the shoes. They’re very attractive.

Steven Sashen:

Thank you very much. So the topic du jour, like I brought up, it really does blow my mind. There’s a comic, he used to do a joke that I love. He said, “I love driving my car behind runners at the speed I think they should be running, because they never look happy so why don’t we give them some incentive?” And this is the thing that I see off and off. The whole ethos of no pain, no gain, and that if you’re going to get fit, it has to be difficult. This is what many people believe. And now granted, I will confess the workouts that I do are exceptionally hard. They’re freakishly difficult, but that makes me unbelievably happy because I’m an idiot. But-

Ariana Hackman:

I will put myself in the same boat. I lift heavy things and I love it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I’m 63, so I’m lifting lighter things more and I’m lifting them until I can’t lift them over and over and over and there’s nothing more embarrassing than grabbing a five pound weight on the third set of something and going, “Yeah, I can’t move that thing.” But it’s just been incredibly, incredibly satisfying. In fact, the guy that I work with says, “All the people that work with me are a little nuts because the workouts are really hard. And I just want you to know that in the category of people who are willing to push as hard as humanly possible, you are at the top of that list.” And so I feel pretty proud about that.

Ariana Hackman:

For sure.

Steven Sashen:

But again, the point is, while during the thing, it’s unbearably difficult, I love everything else about it, and we can get into that. That is the topic du jour and up to you.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, so no pain, no gain. I will say that I am a little bit of a meathead when it comes to stuff like that. I do believe that workouts tend to be a little bit painful, but I very much like that you always put the enjoyable spin on it because I don’t feel like people have to work out like that to be as healthy or as fit as they want to. Health and fitness shouldn’t be hard. It should be fun. You can make some very simple habit changes that will literally revolutionize your health and fitness and life. I’m always very big on, yeah, your workouts might be a little painful and you would have to chase me with a car to get me to run, but it shouldn’t be hard and you should be able to enjoy aspects of it.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, you made me think of something and then I lost the thought entirely. No pain, no gain, making it hard. Oh, one of the things people ask me all the time, they go, “How do you get motivated to …” Fill in the blank. And my response is always, if you have to do something to then get motivated to do some other thing, something is wrong. What’s your take on the whole idea of motivation when it comes to fitness and exercise?

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, I don’t think that people are honestly very good at being motivated or keeping motivation. I think that motivation is something that’s like a flash in the pan. So one day you’re motivated, but the next day you probably won’t be. So I always like to move to the word discipline and then I think discipline is based on goals. So if you have a goal for yourself and you create a plan to get there, you really just have to be disciplined to carry it out.

I definitely do things in my fitness life that I enjoy. I do enjoy working out, but I also do other things like swimming and walking and things that are probably more enjoyable for me. But I have the discipline to go to the gym because I have a goal for myself that I have muscles so that I can eat more honestly. More muscles, more calories you get to eat.

And in my life right now, there’s an expectation that I lean a little bit more towards the fitness model looking side with the app coming out, and there’s an avatar of me in it, and I’m very fit, so I have to fit the bill. But that’s not most people’s goal so if they can find the discipline just to move every day, get some steps in, do a movement and exercise that they truly enjoy, that’s enough. Your body will respond really well to that.

Steven Sashen:

I’m going to have you come back to the tips for getting started and doing it in a way that’s enjoyable, but I want to riff on what you said. So when I started this workout plan that I’ve been doing now for about a year … And I’ve been an athlete since I was seven with a couple of breaks where I got massively depressed because I couldn’t find the thing to do. But I’ve been incredibly consistent. And in part it’s because I’m accountable to someone and frankly, someone who I’m paying a good amount of money for. And it’s also someone I adore. If I didn’t like this guy, I wouldn’t be able to put up with it at all.

But my sister asked me. She says, “Why are you doing this?” And I said, Well, A, I want to see if I can put on more muscle before I know I can’t, because at a certain point it just goes down. B, I want to like what I see when I look in the mirror more often, and I do look in the mirror-

Ariana Hackman:

Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

… more often and it’s getting pretty fun. And then C, I like it when my wife goes, ‘Oh my,’ either with what she sees or what she feels.” I also will admit that I get kick out of when random people, when I say I’m 63 they’re like, “Sorry, what?” I don’t want to tell you what percentage out of a 100 each one of those is although I think the one I get the most enjoyment out of is one I’m getting dressed in the morning. I go, “Check that shit out. I didn’t have that a little while ago.”

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, right. Progress.

Steven Sashen:

So yeah, the progress thing, that’s another thing. Even with discipline. Actually, there’s one other part that I’m curious what your thoughts are. As a track athlete, especially an old track athlete, there’s no reason for doing this. It’s really hard. There’s no bonus points, there’s no prize money, there’s no sponsorship deals. And also, those of us who do this, we’re stupidly competitive and happily old enough to know that it’s stupid to be this competitive, but also old enough to know that that’s just the way it is.

But what I found is over my years competing, the only way for me to have that kind of discipline, and it comes back to the accountability, I think, is to have a partner. And so what’s your take on working out alone versus working out in any other circumstance so that the discipline is not just … Look, I’m not a disciplined guy. If you look around my office, look around any place where there’s a horizontal surface, you will find more crap than there should be because discipline and organization is not my thing. So talk to me about that if you could.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, I think the thing that’s great about what you said is that you know yourself and so you know that to create that discipline to do the things you want to do, you need an accountability partner. And it’s funny. Our original fitness center slogan was Fitness Nutrition Accountability, because most people aren’t going to do health and fitness on their own. It’s not something that, unfortunately anymore, comes naturally.

And so we have to create those accountability partners. Right now, my accountability for myself is that I have expectations because of the business I’m in. Now, if I didn’t work in this business, I think I would have to. Before I was a personal trainer, I used to have a personal trainer. So I think it really is important to find a trainer or just someone in your life who has the same goals as you, where you can be accountable to each other. Because if I ever get out of this industry, I will have to have that again because I’m not sure anyone is naturally disciplined all the time to do those things unless they have a reason or a goal.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, no, things come up in life and discipline comes and goes. And to be clear, one of the things … I think it’s a little more than just having a partner, at least in my experience, because if it’s not someone that I really love and want to hang out with, then it just becomes another form of beating yourself over the whatever with a whatever.

Ariana Hackman:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

And like I said at the beginning, it’s like if you’re not having fun, do something different until you are. And the fun part might not be the workout, it might be hanging out afterwards. Do you know, I just remembered-

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

And you’re not a runner, so you probably don’t know this. And I’m not a distance runner, so I only know it vicariously. Do you know about the Hash House Harriers?

Ariana Hackman:

No, but I actually want to say we actually have in common, I used to be a track and field sprinter.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, sweet. What was your event?

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, 50. The shorter the better. I actually heard your podcast and that you got back into it at 45, I think you said.

Steven Sashen:

YA.

Ariana Hackman:

And I’m 44, and I was like, “Man, maybe I want to start doing that again. I used to love it.”

Steven Sashen:

Do it. Well, and I love that you said the 50s is your event. I’m a 50, 60 meter indoor depending on the track, a 100 meter outdoor. But I’m a much better 50, 60 runner than a 100 meter runner. There’s a handful of us. There’s a guy that I raced against in nationals who, world champion in the 50 or the 60 again, depending on the track, does really well in the a 100, but has a shit 200. Same as me. I’m just wired for that seven and a half to eight and a half seconds.

Ariana Hackman:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

Master Track and Field is a blast because again, we’re all a bunch of crazy people. And so I’ve literally not met anyone on the track who I don’t adore because it’s just loop as all crap.

Ariana Hackman:

I really do think I’m going to look into it. It just sounds fun and I am idiot competitive.

Steven Sashen:

Well, yeah, and your neighborhood, there’s a lot going on. So look at Master Track or I can’t remember … Just go to usatf.org and you’ll find links to the Master stuff. And all I can tell you, what I will warn you in advance, is that your brain will think you’re younger than you are.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, I think I experience that every day already.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, there is that. It took me literally two years to realize that when my brain says, “Hey, let’s just do one more,” that’s the time to go home.

Ariana Hackman:

Yes. Okay. I will definitely take that tip and remember it.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a good one. Oh, so the Hash Hash Harriers, I’m trying to remember what their motto is. It’s something like drinkers with a running problem. And so what they do, they do this crazy cross country race. It’s like a nutty cross country race that ends up at some place where they all have a beer. And so it’s just a bunch of goofy people making running even goofier and then all hanging out and having beer.

Ariana Hackman:

Love that.

Steven Sashen:

Yes, if I liked doing anything other than short straight line and under 10 seconds I’d be all over it.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah. But no, I really do think that’s what it’s all about. I think you do have to put an aspect of fun into it. And a lot of people who come into our fitness center are looking for meals or whatever because they do have some sort of a goal that is fun for them. A vacation, a wedding. There’s a big event. And we’re always talking to them about, “That’s great. We will get you to where you want to be for that event. But then after that event, what’s your plan? Because this needs to be a lifestyle change. You don’t want to do this and then lose all the progress you made and go back to where you were before. So how do we get you from, ‘I’m getting ready for this event’ to ‘This is my new life and this is what I’m going to do, and my life is an event and where I want to be healthy and fit and the best version of myself.'”

And that doesn’t mean a certain weight, and it doesn’t mean you have to be a fitness model. It’s just being healthy internally and externally.

Steven Sashen:

Well, you maybe just think of something that I never really fully took in until this moment. I think we undervalue the value of vanity. In other words, one of the reasons that I do this, whether it’s just me looking in the mirror at myself or wanting other people to look at it and go, “Ooh and ah,” there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m literally saying that out loud for the first time. I used to joke about it. I used to say … Went from a sprinting training. I do nothing but things for the posterior chain: glutes and hamstrings and calves. That’s all I really care about. But then I do some curls and some bench pressing for vanity. But I always pooh-poohed that, like that was a bad thing, that I’m admitting something a little … I don’t know what the word is. But you know what? I’m currently going I think vanity is a good goal.

Oh, mine freeze … Oh, now you’re back.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, that’s actually … I’ve never …

Steven Sashen:

You’re back.

Ariana Hackman:

I’ve never really thought about it, but I agree. And I actually also joke about being vain because that is one of the reasons that I do some of what I do. I am a little bit vain. I do want to look a certain way. I have certain expectations for myself. So that’s really interesting you said that. And I agree. I don’t think it should be necessarily a bad thing. I think wanting to look your best is equal to wanting to feel your best. And I think that’s different for everybody. And that’s the beautiful thing about different levels of health and fitness and working to the level of fit that you want to be. I eat in a way that not everybody has to eat because no one has to maintain a body fat percent that I’m maintaining. There’s a whole range of healthy body fats and healthy looks, and you just have to find where the level of effort matches up with the level of healthy that you’re comfortable with. That’s what I always tell people.

Steven Sashen:

I like that. And I’m going to lean into this vanity thing a little bit more because what occurs to me is the balancing act with admitting that some of why you might be doing something is in some part, small or large, about vanity. You have to come to grips with the other side of that, which is you can’t look at a picture of someone else and go, “I want to look like that” because you are going to look like how you do it. And you’re typically looking at genetic freaks if you’re looking at pictures of people that are in magazines or whatever else.

But there’s certain things that were going to be that you’re going to always have a body part that is your and one that you hate no matter what. It ain’t going to change. That’s the way it is. And in a way, that’s part of the thing that I’m also enjoying. Like, oh, okay, here’s what I know I can do, here’s what I know … I’m never going to get to look like a certain thing, but I’m going to look like, let’s just say, the better or best version of me that I can do at this time.

And I don’t know why this is. Really, for whatever reason, I’ve never gone down this road, but that’s been really valuable for me in the last year in particular is here’s what I can do, here’s what I can’t do. Here’s what might change, here’s what probably won’t change. I’ll give this one to people just so they know. I don’t care how much you’ve been lifting over how much period of time. Once you’re at a certain age … And you can even see this in professional bodybuilders. Look and see what stays and look and see what goes. And I’ll give you the hint. The legs go. That’s just the way it is unless you are juicing like crazy. And even then, I’ve seen some pro bodybuilders who are my age and older still taking a shit ton of steroids and the legs go and so deal with it.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, right? I mean-

Steven Sashen:

They can look okay, but they’re not going to look like the way they did when you were riding your bike 20 miles a day when you’re in your 20s.

Ariana Hackman:

No, absolutely not. Yeah, recovery is so different too. So no, I like that. I think that it is great to want to look like the best version of yourself. I think that’s a great goal for everybody. And also that it will look different as you get older.

Steven Sashen:

I just had a flashback. Many people don’t know that One of the things that Jack LaLanne was famous for … Many people don’t remember Jack LaLanne massive fitness guru in the ’60s. Well, probably from the ’50s, on. And when he was in his ’90s, one of the things he did, he co-invented, I think, the Universal gym. One of the first all-in-one workout pieces of equipment. You could find it at every high school in the world it seemed in the ’70s and ’80s.

And when he was 92, they had a video of him on the Universal bench pressing, and he’s like … but getting in the reps. And if you look carefully, he was lifting 20 pounds. But that’s what he could do at 92 and I’m cool with that. I was at the World Masters Track and Field Championships in Finland 16 years ago, and there was a guy there who’s a 101.

Ariana Hackman:

Wow.

Steven Sashen:

And he came out to do the field events. On his walker, came out, put the walker down, they hand him the shot. He does the shot, put the thing. And by that age, I think it weighs two pounds. And it goes like 10 feet and the crowd goes insane because everyone’s thinking, “I want to be that guy.”

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

I don’t care if it was two pounds. I want to be that guy.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s definitely a goal for me. I think as I transitioned over the past about 10 years, health and fitness has looked different for me. My goals are a little bit different and aging well and keeping my mobility and being able to do things that others can’t as we age is something that’s become really top of mind for me. And it’s something that I talk to more and more people about of why they want to be healthy and fit, because I almost think that it’s one of the best reasons. If you can look into your future, you don’t want to be the person in the wheelchair. You don’t want to be the person that’s hunched over. You want to be able to still play with your grandkids, be healthy and fit, be mobile. I just think it’s something that’s so important to really think about. How you want to age.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I’m curious why you think people give up on that idea. And this is then going to lead into your tips for how to get the ball rolling, because it does seem to me that there are certain people … I even see this with former high level athletes who now can do nothing. And I’m just perplexed by that. I can understand if you had a long competitive career and everything you were doing was about competing and you can’t compete any longer, you don’t want to compete any longer, that could have a psychological impact. But even then, what’s your take on why people tend to give up on that idea or however you want to frame it? And then let’s talk about the ways that you’ve experienced and worked with people to get them going again.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, I think it’s a couple of things. It brings me to thinking about businesses and why businesses close and businesses most of the time close because they don’t evolve. They don’t move their goals, they don’t keep up with their customers, they don’t do the things to keep them going through the years. And I almost think it’s the same thing, especially with competitive athletes. I think that they aren’t able to see a different goal besides winning. And so their whole life, some of those people since they can remember, has been about competing and winning. I think it’s really hard when they lose that ability for them to evolve and transition to the next goal and to see into the future.

I think all of us have a little bit of a problem sometimes looking into our future and imagining what that’s going to look like or having that as a goal because it’s not tangible. People love tangible things. They can touch, things they can feel, close goals. But sometimes you really have to look to the next. What’s next? What’s my next goal? What’s my next evolution? Okay, I can’t compete now to win, but do I want to be able to do something else?

Or even master stuff. So just changing your expectations of what you’re winning. So you might not be a pro anymore, but for a football player, go out and play flag football. I love football. Any of football I can play I think is a good time. So you really just have to evolve. I think we have to evolve as we get older and have different expectations of ourselves.

And the shot put of that guy that was 101 is a perfect example of that he’s evolved. He’s changed his expectations, he’s changed his goals. He still has a great time. He’s still out to do things that he loves. And I think that that’s where the beauty of it comes in, is being able to do that. But it’s hard. I think that’s hard. I think that’s a hard thing to do.

Steven Sashen:

Well, the good thing with Masters Athletics is the goals do change for you. So to become an All-American, in any of the track events, you have to hit a certain time. And as you get older, the time gets longer.

Ariana Hackman:

Thank goodness.

Steven Sashen:

Yes. But it’s like, oh, on the one hand, it’s like I’m not running that fast. On the other hand, at least I’m hitting an All-American time. And that literally is my goal is just to keep hitting All-American times. If I can do that, then I’m thrilled, even if I’m getting progressively slower. So that’s the way it is.

Okay, so let’s go back to you for the win on your tips for people getting that ball rolling. I don’t know why I’m using that metaphor over and over and over, but there it is.

Ariana Hackman:

It’s okay. Yeah. So over the years we’ve worked with tons of clients on health and fitness and nutrition, and a lot of what we hear and the feedback we get of why people don’t do it on their own or they start and stop or they try so many things is because it feels hard to them.

One of the things that I’ve found really important is, okay, it doesn’t have to be this hard. Let’s make it simple for you. Let’s make it so that it’s something that you can move into slowly. So we usually focus on five simple habit changes. Now, simple doesn’t mean easy. You do have to change. You do have to be willing to commit to doing certain things, but they are simple.

One of them is just being active and moving. We usually do that by steps, especially for people that sit all day. So get your steps in. Seven to 10,000 a day. You’re active or you found a fun way to work out. So you play tennis or you do something like that, or you swim. That’s being active. But really making sure that activity spreads across the week and it’s not just two days a week as well. Because if I’m trying to lose body fat, honestly, I do go into the gym and I out, but the amount of calories I burn in a lifting workout is not enough to really get me to where I want to be. So I have to not sit all day. I have to get up and I have to move, and I have to be committed to that six or seven days a week. And so that’s always the first one is just moving, being active, committing to park further from the grocery store, take the stairs. Just those little choices that you can make differently in your day that will help you to be more active and move.

Steven Sashen:

That park further away thing is something I think about all the time but the efficiency geek in me just circles that fucking lot until I find a spot that’s two spots away.

Ariana Hackman:

Oh my goodness. I feel like you and I have a lot of very strange similarities, like no joke, because I preach that to people. I will say it to anyone who’s looking to be more active, but I will not park far away. I park as close as I can get, and I have usually one aisle at the stores that I like to park in.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, no, I’m the exact same way. I’ve thought about the only way that I think I can convince myself to park farther away is if I buy a car that’s expensive enough that I don’t want it to get dinged up. And I’ll park it really far away because no one else will be around, then I’ll do it. But otherwise, if I have a car that it’s not a big deal to get a ding taken out, I’m going to circle the Costco a lot for an hour if I have to.

Ariana Hackman:

Yep, I am right there with you. But that is not what I’m telling others to do because they need to get their steps in and I’m really trying to help them and I find ways to be active that they’re different than that. And I do take the stairs.

Steven Sashen:

Well, we got–.

Ariana Hackman:

The second one is drinking water.

Steven Sashen:

Oh.

Ariana Hackman:

Oh. see, that’s great.

Steven Sashen:

Yes. Look, just to do that tangent, one of the reasons we did get a dog is that, A, we have great office dogs. And then my wife started working from home more and she said, “I got to get up and I miss the office dogs.” So we ended up happily getting a delightful dog. And so that’s a good hour and a half worth of walking for me every day, which is great. But anyway, that was a bit of a tangent that we got to do because you glitched for a second, but now you’re onto water, which I’m holding in my hand and will drink as soon as you start talking.

Ariana Hackman:

I always have water with me but it’s really a very underrated tool for feeling better, looking better, losing weight. Being dehydrated can cause a lot of issues that people don’t even realize are happening. So we tell everybody to aim for half of their body weight in ounces at the minimum. But drinking water is really hard for some people so making sure that they just always have water with them in whatever foreign they like to drink it in. I love straw cups. I don’t know why, but I do. I drink more. I just do better. So I usually will focus on that if I have the ability to. That’s tip number two. And that one I think is pretty easy. I will say when I started drinking water; I’m going to give away all my secrets for some reason; I used to hate water. I was like, “I’m going to teach myself to drink water.” So I started with half juice and half water, and then over time I took the amount of juice down and now I love water. It’s the main thing. Water and wine. I say I’m like people in Jesus’s days.

Steven Sashen:

Someone gave me a tip.

Ariana Hackman:

— drink.

Steven Sashen:

His wife was in the hospital, I think doing something crazy, like having a baby. And so he got one of the cups that they have that was like 64 ounces and it’s graduated, has a straw. And so when you actually can see that, that’s very different than trying to have X number of glasses, which is a whole different thing. It’s like when it’s right in front … And maybe this is me. If it’s not right in front of me, it doesn’t exist. So if I have a big thing that’s something that I am paying attention to and I’ll deal with it. If it’s not there, then I don’t know what the universe looks like.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, no, absolutely. I totally agree. The third one is sleep. It’s another one that people really struggle with, but it makes such a huge difference, especially for women I’ll say on the weight loss side. If you’re getting less than six hours of sleep, your hormones are affecting the amount of weight that you can lose, and it will hurt you in what you’re trying to do for your goals. So we always say six to eight hours. I know it’s hard, but you can develop better sleep habits and it will change everything. It’ll change the way you feel. It’ll change your performance at work and at play. So we really tell people please try and get some sleep.

The fourth one is working out.

Steven Sashen:

Sorry, wait, I’m going to stick on sleep for a second.

Ariana Hackman:

No, yeah, go.

Steven Sashen:

Just personally. That one’s a tricky one for me. I’m getting enough hours per se, if you want to think of it that way. But it’s not really good quality sleep. I am wrestling with that one, just as an FYI. I have mild sleep apnea, so I’ve been trying a couple of different things to deal with that, to see if that makes a difference to my sleep. Hasn’t really so far. I’m tossing that one out there. Not that we’re going to solve this problem for everybody right now, but A, if you have any thoughts about it, that’s great. Not that I’m trying to go for a free session, but I think I’m not the only one, especially as one gets older, it can get a little trickier. This is, I think, a tough one for people. And I don’t think that there’s good … The typical sleep hygiene advice: turn off your screens before you go to bed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think we’ve all done that and gone, “Yeah, that didn’t really do it.”

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, no, I agree. I go to sleep with the TV on, on a sleep timer. But I sleep great. I have very good quality sleep. The first thing I always tell people is to make sure they’re drinking enough water. I’m not saying that that’s anyone’s particular problem, but a lot of times dehydration actually can cause poor sleep quality.

One of the main minerals that people can be low on is magnesium, and that affects sleep quite a bit. So I’ll always recommend magnesium. And then we actually have a product on our supplement line. It’s a fat burner sleep enhancer. I’ve never taken it because I don’t need it, but I’ve had multiple people that have used it that say that it’s very, very effective and has helped them change their sleep and even better on their watches that they track.

But I think with sleep, there’s just so many things that could be the issue. I think you just have to try one thing at a time. I always go for natural things first. So improving your sleep hygiene to see if it does make a difference. Caffeine intake. I personally won’t drink any caffeine after 2:00. And typically, the only caffeine that I drink is first thing in the morning when I get up and I won’t drink anymore in the day unless I’m really craving coffee. But if it’s after 2:00 I literally won’t do it because I know that it affects my sleep.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I think you’re right.

Ariana Hackman:

So caffeine intake is a huge one, but I always tell people to look at …

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, we’ve got a glitchy thing. The caffeine thing. Sadly, I think where we’re leaning on that is that you’re going to have to experiment. And humans don’t like experimenting. We like paint by numbers.

Ariana Hackman:

I know. But if I were to say first three things, I would say caffeine intake, try the sleep hygiene things, and water intake. That’s what I always start with, with people. And then this one’s a little bit more mindfulness, but a lot of people just have trouble relaxing or letting go of the things in their head. I’ll always tell them to actually journal before they go to bed. Write down every single thing that’s spinning through your head, put it on paper and then set it aside. And that’s actually made a big difference, especially for some of my female clients who tend to get stuck in their head, can’t go to sleep. It wakes them up in the night. But sleep is a tough one. It really is. Our bodies are always working in one way or another, whether we want them to or not.

Steven Sashen:

That is a fact. Okay. Do we have a number five?

Ariana Hackman:

Four. Wait, we have four first. So four is-

Steven Sashen:

I thought four was in the mindfulness.

Ariana Hackman:

Wait. What have I covered?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Four-

Ariana Hackman:

Oh no, that was just a bonus.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, okay. Great.

Ariana Hackman:

That was a bonus. Four is working out. I do think it is important to lift weights two to three times a week. I think that for multiple reasons, including having muscle is what boosts metabolism and metabolism is important to body function. I also think it’s very important for bone density. You need something that has some weight or some impact to it to prevent bone loss as you’re aging. And it really does help with fat burning and weight loss when you’re lifting weight. It’s almost more important than cardio. I don’t do a ton of cardio. Active, yes. Forced cardio, not really. I do think it’s important for people to lift weights, and it doesn’t have to be hour and a half long workouts lifting as heavy as you can, but just getting some sort of weight, whether it’s a kettlebell or even a band or whatever it is. Just having some resistance training a couple times a week I think is really important.

Steven Sashen:

And that’s another one, sadly, where you’re going to have to experiment to find what works for you and it will change over time. And again, I’m lifting lighter weights more until I can’t lift light weights rather than doing heavy squats, heavy dead lifting, which I used to do and I used to love doing because I’m 5’5″, 145. I used to love going into a gym where there’s all these big muscly dudes who are dead lifting 400 and they’d finish and start to unrack the weights. Well, “No, no, you can leave those.” And then I’d bring a couple more plates and they’re like, “What the hell?” I miss those days, but oh, well.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, no, I can’t do that anymore either. Although I will say that my upper body strength is kind of freakish. Definitely genetic, I’m sure. And just years and years of lifting. I’m usually lifting more than the guys next to me in the gym when I’m doing arms and stuff. I almost try and turn away though. I feel bad. I’m like, “I’m going to go over here. I want you to keep working out. I want you to feel good about yourself.”

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I don’t know if you are a single person or a not single person, but I’m sure you know, if you are a single person, the worst thing you could do to get picked up in a gym is out lift the guys who might want to pick you up.

Ariana Hackman:

Luckily, I’m married so I don’t have to care. My husband and I actually run these businesses together. But at the same time, I don’t want people to quit because of me. Like, “Oh my gosh, this girl is lifting more than me. I can’t do this anymore.” I just envision them feeling bad about themselves. And I’m like, “Don’t. You’re doing amazing. Just keep going.”

Steven Sashen:

That’s a riot. Okay. Are we on number five?

Ariana Hackman:

Number five. So number five is all about nutrition. It’s actually, I would argue, my favorite topic in health and fitness. Something that I could go on and on and all those things that I can’t stand. There’s a reason that diet has the word die in it. Really, my simple tip for nutrition is to focus on protein. I think protein is very, very important for all of the things we’ve talked about. It’s what keeps you full so you don’t have to eat all day or overeat. It’s a founding building block in muscle, and it really does help a lot of your bodily, even digestive function. So we always tell people to aim for about one gram of protein per desired weight pounds. So if you’re looking to lose 50 pounds, whatever your desired weight is, you want to aim for about a gram of protein per desired body weight as a good goal.

And that is high protein. And some people choose not to eat like that, and I can fully support that as well, and you can work with it. But if you ask me what the ideal nutrition plan is for someone who’s trying to maintain muscle or lose body fat or change their body composition, it’s going to be high protein, moderate carb, and probably lower fats. Again, it doesn’t work for everybody. There are plenty of vegans and other people out there who’ve done miraculous things with their muscles and physical activity and all of that, but my opinion is high protein, and I do think it’s one that is easier to do than some of the others so it does keep it simple.

Steven Sashen:

And that’s one of those things where, while drinking your protein is not necessarily ideal, it’s something you can do. And I will confess, I bought something a couple of weeks ago just to be able to get more protein in. In a semi-supplemental form. I bought a Ninja Creamy, the ice cream.

Ariana Hackman:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

And I will also confess, I haven’t made any high protein ice creams yet because I discovered raspberry sorbet, which holy crap, that’s amazing. And then I tested a couple of chocolate ice cream recipes and found one that is … Luckily I’m not a binge-y kind of guy, but it’s the best ice cream I’ve ever had. So this weekend, it’s my mission to do couple protein experiments.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, stuff like that, it makes it more fun. There’s so many things out there now too on Instagram and other places, Pinterest. Whatever craving you have, you can find a high protein recipe for it.

Steven Sashen:

I’m going to promote something that I promoted before, and if you don’t know about it, you’re going to like to know about it. I’m going to hold it up and show you, and then you tell me if you know about it, and then I’ll describe what I’m holding up.

Ariana Hackman:

I don’t, but I’m excited. I love new products.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. So what I hold up, it’s a protein bar called David. And I’m going to hold it up so you can see again. So 28 grams of protein in only 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. I like to say they’re kind of the second best tasting bars that I’ve had because one that I used to get that the macros weren’t nearly as good and it tasted more candy bar-like, but they have a couple flavors. They have a fudge brownie flavor and a peanut butter chocolate chip flavor that I could just eat all day every day. And if you go to davidprotein.com/zero, X-E-R=O, by the way, you get some special thing if you do that. But-

Ariana Hackman:

I’m in.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, these things, the macros are just insane. And everyone who I’ve turned these onto, all of my fitness friends are like, “Oh my god, this is all we eat now.” So yeah, you’re right. There are all these incredible things that are available to make that easier for you. And that’s one. I definitely have one of those every day.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, I’m definitely going to check it out. I’m always looking for … I don’t eat a lot of protein bars because most of them are-

Steven Sashen:

Horrible.

Ariana Hackman:

… not great.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Horrible.

Ariana Hackman:

Really bad actually. When we tell people, when they come in, they’ll be like, “Oh, I have a protein bar.” I’m like, “You probably don’t. You probably have a carb bar.” Bless your heart. So let’s not eat those and let’s find other ways to get our protein in, because I can’t trust any of them. I’m like, “If you’re really serious about it, bring me the box. I’ll look at it. But if you can’t read most of the ingredients and the macros aren’t there, that it’s probably not the best thing for you to put in your body.”

Steven Sashen:

And for people who are hip to Peter Attia, Peter is the science advisor for this company. So that’s a big part of it. Check them out. You’ll see. If you reach out to them, they might be nice and just send you something. So yes, the protein thing is very interesting, and it’s definitely one that you’ve got to again, experiment with to find what works for you depending on what you eat. I have a genetic thing where meat tastes like metal to me. It just tastes kind of metallic, like the iron from hemoglobin. And so I don’t eat meat, so I have to find other ways of doing that that are palatable. And it’s a thing.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s possible for people to get protein in from lots of different sources. It’s just focused eating basically.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Ariana Hackman:

Now, again, it depends on your goal. So when I’m trying to lose body fat, like I’m on a cut right now, I have to eat so specifically that I’m going to track everything. I track my protein, my carbs, my fats. Then I’ll get to a place where I’m tracking my sodium, and it’s a different level. But most people don’t need to do that. And I think when they see people doing that and they use that, it’s really hard. It’s really hard to track everything you eat and to hit multiple different goals. And so I think really just keeping it simple. If you’re eating enough protein and filling it in with other healthy fruits and vegetables and some simple carbs, you’re going to be fine. You’re going to be making progress just at that point. So I think it just makes it a lot simpler than some of the stuff that is out there. And it’s not a diet, it’s how you should eat.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. It’s something that every now and then I’ll see some article that’s about the best way you should eat. And I read it and I go, “That’s so close to what I’m already doing.” I thought it was going to be something special but it’s really a lot of fruit, a good amount of veggies.

Ariana Hackman:

Eventually it just comes naturally. Again, all of this stuff should be lifestyle stuff. The goal should be lifestyle change. And even if you only do one habit at a time, one change at a time, you’re still making progress and that’s what it’s about.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and again, for me, out of sight, out of mind. So I always have a bunch of fruit around both in the fridge and out of the fridge. So I’ve got my favorite apples. I have one right here. This is actually my second favorite. This is a cosmic crisp apple, not honey crisp.

Ariana Hackman:

Oh yeah, we have those here.

Steven Sashen:

Cosmic crisps are good. And then sugar bees is a new variety that I love. So I’ve always got those. I’ve always got some pineapple cut up in the fridge, some grapes in the fridge, a bunch of Kiwis on the counter. So it makes it easier when I know I need a something, that’s what I’m reaching for. And it’s not just, well, because I like them, but if they aren’t there, then I’ll do something else.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, exactly.

Steven Sashen:

And I explicitly never bring potato chips into the house because they won’t last for very long.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah. Again, I think just like movement, I think eating can be enjoyable, and you don’t have to eliminate food groups and do all those things out there to be successful and have the body composition that you want. You do have to not eat fast food every day and put some healthy things in your body, but it doesn’t have to be as hard as it sometimes is explained.

Steven Sashen:

No. One of our secrets, and it was an inadvertent secret, is my wife and I have become complete chocolate snobs. So we don’t have a bar of chocolate in our house that costs less than $10, and we have enough chocolate to survive the apocalypse. But they all last forever because we’ll have one square, it’s like less than 10 grams, and that’s all you want. It’s just too rich for anything else. That’s one of my favorites.

Here. I’ll do a shoutout for a company called Bar & Coco. Barcocoa.com. Used to be in Denver. All mail order, all like single beam, single origin. Unbelievably good stuff. We had been chocolate snobs before we discovered them, but when we discovered them, it brought our snobbery to a level that is just-

Ariana Hackman:

Really elevated you.

Steven Sashen:

It is obnoxious to a point of we can’t go to dinner parties. It’s really bad.

Ariana Hackman:

I love it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s a good one. All right, anything else that we can think of on our theme of making fitness not something that looks like you’re not having fun?

Ariana Hackman:

I think your message of it being enjoyable. I think that people try to box themselves in. Be out of the box, find movement you enjoy, find foods you enjoy. And I think the other thing that people get stuck on that I talk about all the time is this isn’t about perfection. This is about consistency. So being consistent over time is so much more important than being really good for a week or a month. If you mess up, don’t say, “Oh, now I have to start over and I’m going to wait a week.” I’ve accused myself of that. I’ll miss a Monday workout and I’ll be like, “Oh, this week is shot. I’ll just wait until next Monday,” which that is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. I said it to someone else. I’m like, “If you forgot to brush your teeth in the morning, you wouldn’t wait a week to brush them. You would brush them that night.”

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I forgot to brush my teeth so I may as well-

Ariana Hackman:

You remember. So–

Steven Sashen:

I may as well pull them all out.

Ariana Hackman:

Yeah, I’m done. I’m done. I screwed up so I’m out of the game now. No, just get back on the horse. Be consistent. If you have a cheat day or a cheat meal or a cheat week, it’s okay. Life is long, life is short, but life is long. And getting back to the things you need to do and just consistency over time is really what matters.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that is the number one thing. And again, speaking from just recent personal experience, now that I’ve been doing this lifting that I’ve been doing three times a week, every week for the last year, I’ve seen more changes in my body … In fact, I said to the trainer that I’m working with. I said, “I don’t have a frame of reference for what’s changing. The way we’re doing lifting, I don’t see that I’m just lifting more weight every time, because that’s not the kind of workout that it is. But I just have no sense of it. Here’s some of the changes that I’ve had in my measurements.” And he said, “Dude, if you were 25, that would be impressive.” And I’m not patting myself on the back. It’s just the consistency has had more impact on me than everything else I’ve ever done.

Ariana Hackman:

Yes, that’s where the results are. The results are in consistency. And I think that crosses over way beyond health and fitness. I think that goes into relationships and business and really any goal you have consistently is where results come from. So absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

Yes. I like how we’re going to end on consistency while we’ve had inconsistent internet connection the entire time we’ve had this conversation. So I hope that people have been able to tolerate the two-second glitches that we had every five minutes. Well, Ariana, this has been a total dream and treat. If people want to get in touch with you and find out more about what you’re doing and how you can be helpful for them wherever they are, how would they do that?

Ariana Hackman:

If they’re interested in reading a little bit more, getting more information on the five simple tips, they can go to lunafitjourney.com. So L-U-N-A-F-I-T-J-O-U-R-N-E-Y.com. If they just want to see what we do, learn more about us, or if they want to be right now a beta tester for our app, which that would be a dream for me, the more the better. We’re looking for tons of feedback in the next few months. They can go to lunafitapp.com to find how they can download our app. And then everything we do is at lunafit.com. So a few ways that they can get in touch with us and we do a little bit of everything so we would love to hear from people.

Steven Sashen:

Thank you. Well, I would love that people do take advantage of that, and I’d love to hear what they experience when they do connect with you and do let me know, because that will happen. Again, thank you, thank you, thank you. And for everybody else, thank you as well. Quick reminder, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find out all the previous episodes, find out where you can find us on social media and other places to get the podcast if you want to get it somewhere other than where you already did.

And also, if you have any requests, any suggestions, anybody you think I should talk to on the show, including anyone who you think might think that I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, I’m happy to have those conversations. Hasn’t happened yet. I’m really dying to have someone who wants to chat with me who thinks I’m completely full of it. That would be very entertaining.

And what else, what else, what else? Again, spread the word. Give us a thumbs up, give us a like on Facebook, give us a hit the bell icon and subscribe on YouTube. Again, like I said, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. And if I didn’t say it, yeah, send all those requests to move at jointhemovementmovement.com. That’s how I will hear them. But most importantly, no matter what you’re doing, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Discover a New Running Sport

marketdomination — Wed, 19 Feb 2025 00:00:34 +0000

Sudo Actual is an avid cross-country and run-and-gun (biathlon) competitor passionate about outdoor adventure. A dedicated hiker, camper, and fan of Type 2 fun, Sudo thrives in environments that challenge endurance and resilience. Whether he is navigating rugged trails or competing in high-intensity shooting sports, he prefers the freedom of the wilderness to time spent behind a keyboard and monitor.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Sudo Actual about mastering trail running for centerfire competitions.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How it’s crucial to maintain high levels of physical fitness for long-distance shooting events.

– Why participating in diverse shooting competitions enhances adaptability and proficiency.

– How focusing on finding a balance between speed and accuracy in shooting competitions is vital.

– Why simulating diverse terrains and variables helps prepare people to compete in biathlons.

– How video analysis helps improve performance in shooting competitions.

Connect with Sudo Actual:

Guest Contact Info

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Connect with Steven:

Website: Xero Shoes
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Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

There are a lot of people who use Xero Shoes and Minimalist Footwear and Natural Movement for professional sports, but we’re going to talk about a sport you’ve probably never heard of, and that’s probably because most people haven’t heard of it, but it’s very interesting and not what you think. And that’s what this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement is all about. This is the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first. You know those things at the bottom of your legs that are your foundation. Where we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the outright lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, play, do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it’s you like to do, including what we’re going to talk about on this podcast and to do it enjoyably and efficiently and effectively.

And did I say enjoyably? Trick question. Of course, I know I did because look, if you’re not having fun doing something, you’re not going to keep it up. So don’t do that. Find something you enjoy and do that. I am Steven Sashen, your host of The MOVEMENT Movement podcast, the co-founder and chief barefoot officer at Xero Shoes, and we call it The MOVEMENT Movement because we, that includes you, more about that in a second, are creating a movement about natural movement. Letting your body do what it’s made to do without getting in the way and causing problems as a result. The you part is really simple, spread the word. So give us a nice five-star review. Give us a thumbs up where you can thumbs up. Give us hit the bell icon on YouTube and follow us on YouTube. But look the drill. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe and let’s spread the word and have some fun.

So what else can I say? Oh, by the way, feel free to head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes, all the other ways you can interact with us on social media, other places you can find the podcast if you don’t like the one that you found this one at or found. You know what I’m trying to say. But more importantly, let’s get started. So Phillip, welcome to the podcast. Tell people who you are and what you do that is this interesting new thing you’re doing, or just to say anything and we’ll kind of get to what you do where people are going to have some interesting thoughts.

Sudo Actual:

Yeah, absolutely. Hi. So I am the face behind the sudo actual account now, that’s sudo underscore actual, and there is some meaning behind that name. It’s not just a bunch of misspellings of the term, pseudo or pseudonym, and I am focused-

Steven Sashen:

It’s also not a misspelling of sumo.

Sudo Actual:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Which is not the sport we’re talking about, so I just want to make sure people don’t go on that rabbit hole, down that rabbit hole or whatever the hell I’m trying to say.

Sudo Actual:

Yeah, sometimes in the tech world it’s kind of called SU DO, but I call it sudo. We can get into that in a bit, but those accounts primarily focus on health, fitness and competition shooting. With competition shooting being kind of the primary focus, but specifically in what I would call an emerging sport, which some people might take offense to that, I can get into some of the history to it, of running gun. Which is colloquially known as running gun, but it’s more accurately known as center fire to gun biathlon. Now of course here in the States it’s kind of hard to find snow, especially down south in Texas. So the biathlon part of it is more cross-country running.

So these courses that I shoot primarily are out in the rural areas of Texas and they are large one-way adventure courses essentially with shooting events and shooting stages along the way. Some of these range from four miles out to, I think the longest one I have done so far in a single day is 14 miles, and then oftentimes they’re a full weekend event. These are large events when you compare them to I guess some of the other shooting sports that are out there, they take place from typically Friday to Sunday with multiple options on how to participate and how to compete throughout the weekend.

Steven Sashen:

So I’m going to back up a bit. I know some people when we hear the word shooting, lose their mind to begin with and I want to calm them down. So let’s back up and talk biathlon. At the very least, many people may know if they watch the Olympics, one of the sports that they will change the channel on is the biathlon, which because they’re going, it’s like, why would I watch cross-country skiing that’s boring? And then why would I watch people shooting at targets? That’s boring too. So we just got boring times two, I’m going to switch to something, whatever else they’re going to watch instead. Talk about the history of just the Nordic biathlon because I can only guess that what you’ve developed was inspired by that and like you said, ain’t a lot of snow in Texas, although every now and then all hell breaks loose in Texas either hot or cold.

Sudo Actual:

Yes. So to add some historical context here, so the original biathlon appeared in the Scandinavian era or region towards I think the late 1800s. It’s really got its official government sponsorship to become the civilian biathlon, I believe somewhere in the 1910s or 1908s and it takes its roots in light infantry ski patrol, which was the military roots of it, and then the civilian version of it was cross-country skiing with shooting along the way. They ski to particular stages. And that sport has evolved over time to what you see now in the modern Winter Olympics.

Where really when it comes to Olympic shooting competitions, what you see is kind of odd, right? You’ll see essentially what looks like space BB guns. These things are, there is a particular set of defined rules, right? They will whip out the tape measure and they will make sure that you are within those rules in terms of the equipment that you can use. That’s why you see guys really trying to eke out every bit of performance that they can with the different setups that they get. They’re all within the rule set, which is a very rigid rule set to try and level the playing field.

Steven Sashen:

Well, just to interrupt again, so yeah, if you haven’t watched Olympic shooting, it is fascinating because like you said, not only did the guns look space age, but yeah, all the stuff they’re wearing on their face and on their body, it’s very, come on, I just lost the movie that I’m thinking of, not the Terminator, RoboCop. It’s very RoboCop and it’s one of those things, and correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t know if you’ve ever, how much you’ve watched those competitions. But like that and archery, any of those target sport kind of things I imagine are much more interesting in real life if you can actually see them. Because sometimes you’re too far away in the audience. But if you can see them, just that sort of the mounting pressure of knowing that people are competing to be fractions of a millimeter better than the other person can get really pretty intense. Watching it on TV, it’s like you kind get a bit of that, but I mean when I’ve seen some of those sports live, you’re freaking out. I mean, it’s crazy.

Sudo Actual:

Yeah, there’s definitely performance anxiety there. I mean, they are large spectator sports and the rule set in particular is kind of crafted in a way that makes it a good spectator sport. That’s why they usually are shooting at like 50 meters. It’s something where you can see the shooter and you can see the target and they’re plugging away to try and stack their shots or they’re skiing cross country in a method that makes it spectator sport friendly, kind of like a rally cross or rally racing. But yeah, coming back to the equipment, I would personally frame that as being a bit gamer, right? You’re gamifying the rules. Well, because they are trying to pull out those milliseconds or pull out the less than an inch shot with open sights at 50 meters with a pellet gun or sometimes a rimfire gun, and that’s just the nature of the sport. You get a rule set and you get people who try to find that rule set and eke out every bit of performance they can.

Now, that is very stark contrast to what you’ll find stateside. So stateside kind of the name that we use is running gun, but I do take a little bit of an issue with that name because technically most shooting sports incorporate running, you’ll find USPSA or IPSC, they’re running in attack bay or a flat bay, but they’re running 40 yards. Now, the running gun I’m talking about really is biathlon. It’s a cross country adventure race, and so the longer the better, we’re talking miles and miles or tens of miles. In fact, there is an endurance event, an annual endurance event here in Texas where I think the top runner put down 35 miles, maybe it was 30 miles and it was sun up to sundown. That’s a very stark contrast to what you’ll find in USPSA or any other shooting sport that you’ll, three gun, three gunners tend to have a lot of movement on stage, but not dozens of miles.

Of course, footwear. Footwear is paramount when you’re moving across country. That’s one of my favorite aspects of this whole style of shooting is the cross country hike or the run or jog, whatever you end up doing. There are no rules. You don’t have to run, you don’t have to jog. Of course, you will be much better off running and having some levels of cardio that can actually put you into a competitive bracket. At the end of the day, this is a race and your overall scores are reflective of how fast did you move and how proficient you are in marksmanship. That’s the other stark contrast here too, is the biathlon here in the States, we’re shooting real guns, we’re not shooting BB guns and we’re pushing the distance. Some of these events I’ve shot out to 800 yards, which is very challenging. It also is not spectator friendly because you can’t even see where the targets are unless you have a spotting scope or something like that, which is a part of the challenge as well.

Steven Sashen:

So typically then for these events, rifles, not pistols, correct?

Sudo Actual:

Yeah. The full name would be two gun because you could classify this I guess as a triathlon, but not really.

Steven Sashen:

That is pushing it a little bit. Yeah.

Sudo Actual:

So it is two gun. There is a pistol component and a carbine mostly component. Most of the distances are inside of 400 yards, but every now and then they do push it. I actually had one last weekend that I was at and the furthest target was advertised as 650 yards. I don’t think it actually was. I think it was more like 550, maybe 590. But yeah,

Steven Sashen:

Well, when we first started talking about this, I was having flashbacks. Now obviously for anyone who’s listened to me, they know that the last thing I have any interest in is a cross country run as a sprinter, anything over 100 meters, and I’m just like, I got to get a GPS watch and a nap. So that’s not going to happen. But at the same time, especially when you say you don’t have to run it, that becomes interesting. And also when I was a kid, I was really into target shooting of all kinds. I was never a hunter. That’s not my thing, but I’d go to summer camp and archery and riflery were my two favorite things to do, and I was the best one at the camp doing them, which was… And it’s such a fascinating sport, and it’s a weird thing to call it that because we typically think of sports as something that’s very physically active, but it is in many ways as a former All-American gymnast and now Master’s All-American Sprinter, there’s so many parallels between shooting and those things about what you need to do to do it correctly.

The mental training that’s involved, some of the physical training as well about how you pay attention to your breath, how you’re paying attention to very subtle things about movement and posture as a sprinter. Someone gave me a cue just recently that changed my running form and made me faster. Tiny, tiny little thing. I mean, literally, if you look at the difference in a slow motion video at 240 frames a second, it’s the difference of two frames, but changed everything. So I find this all totally, totally interesting. In fact, I mean for the fun of saying it, we’ll see if anyone freaks out about this. I was a proud member of the NRA 50 years ago when the NRA was all about target shooting and it was barely about hunting even, and certainly not about what it turned into in the last 20 years.

So the whole thing I find totally fascinating and for the sake of being totally transparent, because I liked that so much, one of my post-retirement fantasies I shared with you is I’d love to go to sniper school. Not that I have any interest in shooting a person or a living thing, but to your point of shooting a target 800 meters away or a click and a half away, what it takes to do that is really fascinating. In fact, for the sake of saying this, I spend a lot of time doing a lot of meditation, and there’s a lot of the people who are training to be able to shoot like that, do a lot of that work as well, because you’ve got to do crazy things like pull the trigger in between heartbeats. I mean, amazingly fine-tuned physiological stuff. So that’s the part that I find most intriguing about what you’ve put together.

Sudo Actual:

Yes, absolutely. Fitness and marksmanship do go hand in hand. Now, it is very easy, depending on how you’re shooting. If you’re shooting at 50 yards, you can probably slack off on your fitness levels quite a bit. But to maintain marksmanship proficiency at nine miles in on a cross-country trail and get impacts at four or 500 yards, that’s a different level. There is a bar there. Now, yes, you can hike these events and honestly, that’s like 50% of the draw for me. That’s getting to see Texas and other states that I had been to do this kind of competition is just really fantastic to get to see the hike. I’ve been everywhere from the Plains of Oklahoma over into Kentucky and Missouri and into Texas. Of course, Texas is really just exploding with these events.

When I first started about five years ago, there was maybe one event every quarter, maybe, and now there’s 2, 3, 4 events every month, which is, I mean, it’s just incredible. Obviously the shooting community and the fitness community are merging on this one, and it’s creating a big draw. And that’s one of the challenges with Texas is that there’s not a lot of public land, and so if you really want to explore Texas and not be at a state park or be it a national park, you got to find your way onto some of these private ranches, and that’s where all of these events take place.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Sudo Actual:

Some of these ranches are just enormous, like the Y.O Ranch down in South Texas. I mean, it’s dozens of square miles.

Steven Sashen:

Wow.

Sudo Actual:

It’s absolutely enormous, and you don’t get to go on there unless you go to an event like this.

Steven Sashen:

How many people are coming to this from the fitness side versus the shooting side?

Sudo Actual:

Man, that’s kind of a hard one to answer. So I would say in terms of shooting competitions, there’s really like two categories. There’s the category that focuses almost 99% of their effort on marksmanship proficiency in some way. If you look at USPSA, USPSA is all really about the hit factor. This is going to probably light someone on fire who’s really into USPSA. I’m going to probably-

Steven Sashen:

Well, so USPSA United States?

Sudo Actual:

Yeah, that’s the United States Practical Shooting Association. This is probably one of the longer running organizations nationwide that hosts shooting competitions. It’s almost entirely focused on pistol handguns. They do have some other divisions, and you’ll find it mostly inside of flat ranges at 50 yards and in. Again, I’m painting a general brush here, painting pretty wide, but it is almost entirely a shooting sport. I mean, that is what it is. It’s focused entirely on your pistol proficiency shooting, nothing else. Whereas there’s another group that’s kind of the one group is shooting proficiency only, and then there’s another group of shooting sports. I’d put biathlon in this as well, where there is a very physical component to it. The other one beyond just biathlon or running gun would be like the tactical games. The tactical games. I would categorize this as 90% CrossFit workout with some shooting involved as well.

Now they have some different versions of how they run their events. This is a nationwide event. Honestly, to me, it seems a lot like Camp Gladiator, right? It’s that CG model with some shooting though, right? There’s a shooting element to it. It is very spectator friendly. You can observe what they’re doing, and they’re doing a lot of reps and they’re doing a lot of CrossFit inspired exercises, very physical. There’s a big physical bar there. You can’t really show up and expect to do very well or even finish if you don’t have a certain level of physical abilities, which I think is great. That’s much further towards where I’m interested. I mean, of course I am interested in shooting guns as well, but I like the physical component. I like the, I believe I call it type two fun, right? This is the kind of fun that, have you ever heard that category?

Steven Sashen:

No, I haven’t heard that one.

Sudo Actual:

Sure. So I’ll go over, you could maybe say there’s three categories of fun. Type one fun is Margaritas on the beach, right? It’s fun while you’re doing it, and it’s fun in retrospect. Type two fun is hiking Mount Everest. Not very fun, and except when you think about it in retrospect, you go, wow, that was really amazing. It’s stuff that sucks while you’re doing it, and then in retrospect you go, that’s amazing. I want to go back and do that again. Right? That’s type two fun. And type three fun is just not fun at all. It’s not fun in retrospect, and it’s not fun while you’re doing it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I was going to say type three fun should be having margaritas while you’re climbing Everest. I think there’s something there.

Sudo Actual:

Well, you might end up staying on Everest permanently.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, there is that.

Sudo Actual:

Yeah, so type two fun is definitely where I find my weekends trying to go and usually comes down to physical exertion. Physical exertion is the thing that drags most of us down, and it’s the thing that I find as I age, I’m pursuing more because you got to stay sharp as you age, and-

Steven Sashen:

So I started working with a trainer about, oh gosh, eight, nine months ago, and this guy, we work over Zoom, so he’s in Brooklyn, I’m in Colorado. And the workouts that we do three times a week, 10 minutes, maybe 12 minutes max, as a person who’s been an athletic person my whole life. I don’t like to say an athlete that just sounds too pretentious, but someone who’s done athletic things since I was seven, this is the hardest thing I have ever done by a long shot. It is excruciating when I’m doing it. It takes me 10 minutes to get off the floor when we’re done with an arm and chest workout, and it’s the thing that makes me happiest three times a week every week.

Sudo Actual:

Yeah, I think we all need something hard in our life. It’s that recurring challenge that you can look forward to and feel yourself actually grow in. Right?

Steven Sashen:

Well, let’s be clear, I do not look forward to leg day. There’s nothing about leg day that I look forward to. I look forward to trying to find a way out of it because I know that if it’s a really good one, I will then have four to five days of I need help getting on and off the toilet. So I will have to slide down the stairs and crawl up the stairs. And my wife will look at me and my wife is not an athletic person, and she’ll say, “Are you enjoying this?” And I’ll say, “More than I can possibly explain.”

Sudo Actual:

Yeah, well that’s type two fun.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s totally type two.

Sudo Actual:

With these biathlons, it’s almost always leg day. Leg day, every single time. So this past one that I just competed in, it’s the closest thing I know of, at least in the United States to a mountain biathlon. So it took place in the Davis Mountains, which believe it or not, Texas is not all flat. There are some mountains.

Steven Sashen:

Hold on, hold on. How tall are these mountains?

Sudo Actual:

I think the tallest one in that region is like 8,300 feet.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a hill. It’s like when Lane and I, we were in Netherlands years ago and staying with a friend who lived at the highest spot in the Netherlands, it was 200 feet high. It was a former landfill that they put sod over and then they put a bike trail that goes up and over it, and you see people like $10,000 bikes all decked out like they’re in the Tour de France acting like climbing 200 feet is the hardest thing they’ve ever done. So you’re 8,300 compared to the Fourteeners that I’m looking at right through the window. I mean, it’s a molehill. But okay, I’ll give it to you.

Sudo Actual:

It’s no Fourteener. I am a lowlander myself, so as soon as I get to a mile high, I start feeling it. Especially if I don’t acclimate, which I never do when I go to this event, I just don’t have the time. I show up and send it, right? And this event does take place at just below a mile high, and then you get to a mile high on course. So this course had about 1200 feet of elevation change total. That’s up and down, which is not the craziest I’ve done. Here in Texas, the craziest I’ve done is about 3000 feet of elevation change, which was-

Yeah, and that’s in the hills of Texas, and that’s a part of Texas where the hills are really dramatic. They’re pushed together, so they have steep valleys and steep hills, and so it was just up and down, up and down, up and down, which is quite the challenge. That’s a challenge to do seven miles plus you have to carry all of your stuff. So I’m carrying 30 to 35 pounds worth of equipment and running Xero Scramblers the whole way. That’s been my preferred shoe or boot for probably three years now. That’s what I’ve been running, and I’ve done everything from tread through mud, swim with them, and of course do tons of elevation in those boots, and they’ve been really fantastic. I’m really enjoying the version two. That’s what I’m currently running right now.

Steven Sashen:

That’s a good one. Here’s a weird question now since you brought up footwear and remember you brought it up. So by the way, sorry, that line was a flashback When I was interviewing at colleges, I interviewed at this one small college in Pennsylvania. I don’t know why I didn’t mention was thinking of not mentioning Haverford College, it doesn’t matter, and the interviews with the dean. The first thing he did, this is way off-topic, but it’s a fun story. The first thing he did, I sit down in front of his desk, he’s behind his desk and he takes my transfer report card, whatever the hell you call it then, and slides it across the desk and says to me, “So what do you think?” And I then gave explanations for every bad grade that I had, including almost failing wood shop because I had a personality clash with the teacher, and so he gave me an E instead of an F.

Anyway, then we have this interview, it’s all going fine. I’m about to leave. I’ve got my hand on the doorknob and he says, “Hey, by the way, just want to let you know you’re the one who brought up grades.” Stop me dead in my tracks. It’s like, mother God, he was right. He just shoved a piece of paper across the table. When he said, “What do you think?” I could have said, “You just shoved a piece of paper across the table.” Now, I will say that when they accepted me to Haverford, I replied saying that I wasn’t going to be attending because instead, I was going to Montgomery County Community College major in automotive repair.

I don’t know how they responded to that one, but anyway, so since you brought up shoes, I’m going to ask you a weird question. I was not surprised when I first heard powerlifters who were swearing about how our shoes were improving their performance, even on things like the bench press, which most people don’t realize, especially if you’re doing really heavy weight, that the impulse to push with your arms starts with an impulse to push through your feet, through your knees into your hips and away it goes. And when I think about target shootings, well in general, whether you’re standing or a prone, I do think about how I have my feet placed. Are you paying attention to that or are you noticing anything different when you have a shoe that’s flexible enough to let your feet really anchor even when you’re lying down versus like a big stiff boot?

Sudo Actual:

Absolutely. A part of that too comes from the feel, so you can feel a lot more with a minimalist shoe than you can with a big boot or something that has a shank in it. There’s plenty of those. And for this kind of shooting in particular where it is all natural environment, you’re not shooting in a manicured range. The feel is very important because you’re shooting in very unconventional spaces. You you’re prone to or you’re leaned up against a tree and you’re trying to find a good way to brace against the natural environment to pull off a shot that’s out hundreds of yards, and so that’s very important. Your ability to be flexible is incredibly important as well to adopt unconventional shooting positions, positions that you would never find yourself in if you’re just at your local range, your local range is not even practice, I would say it’s really just a zero your rifle. Anything beyond that, you’re kind of kidding yourself in terms of the realistic natural environment and what you have to offer up.

This is deep down the shooting rabbit hole, but in the natural environment, you don’t have known ranges, you don’t have a lot of feedback either. You could be missing, but you’re missing in a field of grass. There’s absolutely no impact feedback there, and so being confident in your stature, being confident in your position, in your holds, those are absolutely crucial for this style of shooting competition.

Steven Sashen:

So I’m just imagining if you’re going to turn this into a triathlon, then there’s a kind of Bikram yoga component to it, so you’ve got to do warrior pose and then shoot, which would be an appropriate pose except very difficult to hold a rifle in that pose.

Sudo Actual:

Yes, absolutely. I mean, there’s no good position to shoot from in the real world. There’s almost nothing to brace on, and a lot of times going prone doesn’t work either. You can’t lay down because there’s grass in the way, there’s bushes in the way. You can’t even see the target at that point. These are all things that you don’t really think about at most competitions.

Steven Sashen:

I want to dive into the shooting component then because it just occurred to me. So there’s a target some distance away. There we go, that’s English. What’s the target and more how many shots, and how are that graded? And how do you do the whole time to complete versus accuracy in the marksmanship side?

Sudo Actual:

So in terms of targets, it’s an assortment. Which makes it very difficult to try to actually gauge distance, because you can measure out distance if you know a target size. There’s mathematical formulas and there’s different and stuff that will tell you distance if you know what you’re looking at, right? If you know that you’re looking at a 12 inch piece of steel gong or square steel, you can measure that out with a reticle and it will tell you the range, give or take, right there. There’s a margin. And so yeah, it’s usually steel. It’s usually gongs or squares of some kind, and it’s all unknown distance. Now the scoring aspect is, it kind of depends per event, but you typically get three scores, right? You get your shooting proficiency-

Steven Sashen:

Sorry, sorry. When you’re in the shooting part, so one round, multiple rounds?

Sudo Actual:

There is no restriction, right? You typically have three minutes to complete a stage and the stages will have what they call a course of fire. Sometimes it’s highly prescribed, go here, do this, right? And there could be covering two, 300 yards worth of movement on that particular stage, or it could be completely static. You never really know. And so that’s, sorry, coming back to how the scoring for that works. So it depends on the events. My preferred method of scoring is kind of called time plus. Sometimes it’s called down to finish, DNF. DNF usually means did not finish-

Steven Sashen:

Did not finish. Yeah.

Sudo Actual:

Down to finish is my favorite. Basically, if you hit the time, the par time, say it’s three minutes and you didn’t get all the targets, you get your three minutes plus the number of targets you failed to actually hit, right? So it still gives competitors a feedback. They’re just not like, “Hey, you all failed and you all get the same grade.” No, it’s, “You failed, but you got to this point.” Right? So you get partial points essentially. The second time or second score that you actually get is your run time, so that’s the time it takes for you total to get to each stage and between stages. Now you do get paused when you get to a stage. Sometimes you get a little bit of a break to catch a breath or get some candy or drink some water, do something, and then your third score that you get is your total score.

Now, total score, it depends per event. Again, there’s not really a standard here. Usually most events are weighted with marksmanship taking a higher percentage of your total score and running typically say 60/40, so running is very much in your cardiovascular capabilities is very much a part of your score, but it’s not equal to your marksmanship. You can slack off a little bit and just shoot really well, and then you get a better overall score. Of course, if you run the wind and you shoot like Annie Oakley, then you’re going to get the top score. That’s how it shakes out. Which that’s my favorite, personally, I like 70/30 to be honest. As I age, and honestly some of these events, I like to stop and look at the scenery. Smell the flowers, so to speak, but man, the views out the way out on some of these ranches that I go to, it’s incredible. I would be there just for the hike, honestly. It’s worth the price of admission is the hike.

Steven Sashen:

Love it. When a race is starting, is everyone starting at the same time and it just looks like the beginning of a biathlon triathlon or is it staged in some way?

Sudo Actual:

No, it is. They do send runners out typically every five minutes, so most of the time you get a block, a heat one, heat two, heat three, so on and so forth, and then they stagger it out. They don’t typically send people out in groups unless it’s a team event, which there are team events that they, they’ll send out two to, I think it’s usually two. I haven’t seen any that are bigger than two, but so they have to stagger it, which means sometimes too, that you get a bit of a queue at a stage. Especially if you send three dudes out who are all fast runners, they’re going to stack up at the next stage. Which there could be some strategy in there too of like, hey, I can run and come in hot to a stage, but then I’ve got 10 minutes to cool down.

Steven Sashen:

If you’re going in pairs, are they both shooting or is it a shooter or a spotter?

Sudo Actual:

The paired biathlon is typically, yep, you’re shooting together and their stages are usually set up specifically for two people to be on stage at the same time, but on the normal non-team events, there’s one shooter shooting at a time, especially since this is not at what you would see at a gun range where there’s a line of fire. There’s safety concerns there. You can’t have two people shooting at the same time, and so there’s typically two to three range officers working on a stage at a time, and they’re pushing people through as fast as they can.

Steven Sashen:

Clearly, when it comes to what it takes to get into this, obviously the footwear side, get a pair of Scramblers 150 bucks, that’s easy. So on the equipment side, where does this fall in between, say bowling and golf or whatever else would be on the low end of a cost barrier to entry versus a high end?

Sudo Actual:

Well, this is both bowling and golf at the same time. This is where I could come back to some of the other shooting sports too, that you find. I’ll pick on USPSA again, just because it’s the most popular one, always punching up. There’s a ton of divisions in USPSA and to the point where they will whip out the tape measure and start measuring your equipment. In the American biathlon scene, there’s almost none of that. There are some safety related items. You can’t show up with something that’s going to be outright dangerous, but there’s never, that I’ve seen, any divisions related to your equipment. So you could show up with a backpack and a good attitude and shoot what you want, bring what you want, and shoot what you want.

Again, within a margin of safety, you can’t show up with a extremely large caliber firearm. Now, that could be a safety issue, but the most common calibers are 100% give it a go, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s an open division, race spec, custom-built pistol, or if it’s just what you’ve got, right? There’s no divisions. You’ll be competing, which some people might find completely unfair, but I will say that most of these courses, the terrain alone is a great equalizer.

Steven Sashen:

Well, that’s what I was thinking. Is it not the kind of thing that you could necessarily practice for because the variables are so tremendous?

Sudo Actual:

Nope. Unless you own a massive ranch land that you can set your own up. It’s very difficult to practice for, and honestly, I would say that equipment, when it comes to the actual hardware, right? Again, if you’re running a $8,000 custom-built open division pistol, it’s honestly probably not going to give you the advantage you think you were going to get. In fact, some of that stuff just flat out doesn’t work in the real world. As soon as you get a speck of dust on some of those things, it’s malfunction city. And so your proficiency at a stage, it might just completely fall apart because you were forced to go through a creek crossing with a bunch of mud on it and it got inside of your extremely nice, but somewhat delicate open division pistol, and now you’re shooting just, you’re DNFing everything, right? Which even if you run the wind, if you DNF two, three stages, you’re at the last of the pack now, overall.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, where’s the question that just popped in and out of my head? Oh, I know what it is. Given the combination of running slash hiking or however you’re going to traverse the terrain and the challenge of doing that, especially for time-

Sudo Actual:

Some people are crawling.

Steven Sashen:

Crawling, running a unicycle, whatever floats your boat. Then the challenge of the shooting component, I imagine part and then the nature component, but I’m going to leave that one out for a second. I imagine just those first two and all the variables that get applied make part of the attraction to this, just the intermittent reinforcement. And the fact that you can never get it perfect, but you always just like in a sprinting race, at the end of a sprint, people come up and go, “How’d you do?” And I go, I literally say to people, “Do you just want the number or can I give you the excuse first?” Because you never do it perfectly. There’s always, when you look back, I mean if we’re going to talk type two, you’re also looking back at all the things that you could have done better in your mind, and the reality is if you had done those better, you would’ve screwed up something else. But so how much, other than enjoying the nature and the challenge of it, do you find yourself attracted because of that intermittent reinforcement thing in your brain?

Sudo Actual:

Yes, there is always hindsight with all of these things. That’s actually why I started off filming myself. For years I filmed myself. I never put it on the internet. I just watched it to in retrospect, remember what did I do? That’s one of the big components here is when you spend five miles getting to a stage, you go into monkey brain mode. You’re just working off of instincts maybe at that point in time, and you could be incredibly fatigued. You could have been constant exposure to the wind and the sun for that entire duration. And you got to remember too, five miles in the natural environment, when we’re talking about hills or what I would call maybe mountains, that could take hours.

Steven Sashen:

A whole different game than being on a road.

Sudo Actual:

And especially out west in Texas, there is absolutely no shade or shelter from the sun and the wind. So I find myself definitely going into monkey brain mode a lot. And so I don’t remember what did I do on these stages? And you watch yourself on video and you go, man, that was a really inefficient way to tackle that, right? And so that’s the other component too, that I have to make pretty clear, that distinguishes this style of shooting sport from the other shooting sports, there are no walk-throughs. You get to a stage and you get a brief description at best, sometimes they’re wrong.

They put targets where they’re not actually, they didn’t tell you those targets where, and it just is what it is, and you get one shot, you get your one shot to go through it. They don’t hold your hand and walk you through and let you kind of feel out where are things. You got to think on your feet, which again, nine miles in thinking on your feet’s not great, right? There’s definitely been some courses where I was so exhausted I would not have passed a cognitive test. If you’d asked me some simple addition, I would’ve looked at you like, you’re crazy. I have no idea what this simple addition is, right? I’m just trying to find water at this point.

Steven Sashen:

Oh my God. Yeah, boy, you sure know how to sell it.

Sudo Actual:

Remember, type two fun. Type two fun.

Steven Sashen:

No, I got it, I got it. Well, wait, so how are you videotaping yourself? Is someone running with a camera or what are you doing?

Sudo Actual:

So I started off with just the simple setup, right? Put a camera on my head so that way I can see, oh, I was leaning up against something I shouldn’t have been leaning up against, right? Or, oh, I flubbed a malfunction clearing and why did I do that? How do I get better? Or some of the more embarrassing ones, oh, I went empty and then I really had poor form on pulling the trigger, thinking a round’s going to go off. That’s the big one. Yeah, those are not my proudest moments, but again, I’ll make the excuse. I was tired.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, no, I can only imagine that thing of feeling like, oh God, I’ve got this shot nailed, and then click, I forgot to load the chamber.

Sudo Actual:

It’s the click in the dip. For somebody who is into firearms and proficiency when you click and dip, that’s really embarrassing. That’s very poor form.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, what’s the dip part? I mean, the click part’s obvious. What’s the dip part?

Sudo Actual:

The dip part. Here, I’ll hold it up. Right. That’s when you click and do this, you jerk the firearm, which is very poor form. It shows, there’s a lot of reasons for why people do that. Usually beginners, right? They’re scared of the recoil, but I’ve caught myself doing that on camera a couple of times, and again, I’ll make an excuse. I was tired.

Steven Sashen:

This is a bit off-topic, but what the hell? When you are watching a movie or a TV show that involves people shooting in some way, it doesn’t matter if it’s targets or whatever else. Do you find yourself getting exasperated at their complete lack of proper form, proper weapon handling, et cetera?

Sudo Actual:

The one that gets me the most is blinking.

Steven Sashen:

Blinking?

Sudo Actual:

Blinking. Yeah. If you watch an actor, particularly when they’re using some of their prop guns that actually make a noise, they blink before they pull the trigger. And that’s the biggest one. That’s the one that takes me most out of it, especially when the setup is that this guy is some sort of proficient sniper and they’re blinking before they pull the trigger, and it’s because they’re not accustomed to the bang, right? The bang is freaking them out. They’re not looking through the shot.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, hold on. That’s reminding me. Oh, come on. It was a Hitchcock movie and I’m blanking on the name of it. No, no, no, no, no. Where there’s a kid, there’s basically, I think it’s a gun that goes off or explosion of some sort, and they’re in a cafeteria in a lodge, and right before the explosion, if you look carefully in the background, there’s a kid who puts his fingers in his ears.

Sudo Actual:

Yep.

Steven Sashen:

It’s brilliant. Well, Philip, this has been totally, totally fascinating. I hope it has been for other people as well and for anyone… Well, anyway, I just hope it has been. I love just finding something that’s novel that is combining these very interesting things that are often both, frankly quite misunderstood. Many people who’ve never done any trail running, don’t get why that’s more interesting than being on the road and just putting in the miles. Or how it can be just delightful that you get to somewhere and see something that you don’t typically see, especially if you go off trail and yes, even though I’m a sprinter, I have done that.

And of course the shooting component, which I would argue, I was going to say rightly so, but that’s not quite it. I can understand why there are people who have misconceptions about what that is and how it applies in this situation and the kind of people who are into it who are at the very least, the most responsible gun owners you’ll probably meet. And more who are treating what they’re doing in a way that most people have never imagined because they’ve never hung out with people who do this.

So I really appreciate, I love that you’ve been putting this together and spending the time to share what it is, and I do hope people can find out more about it. Whether even if it’s the kind of thing, I don’t know if other people do this. I like finding things that I’ve never heard of and things that I might have some uninformed opinions about and going, I got to go try that just to see what the experience is. And I hope other people have that same mentality or willing to adopt that for certain things, whether it’s this or other things. So that said, long segue too, if people want to find out more about this, where do they go? What do they do?

Sudo Actual:

So you could find my social media accounts on Instagram and YouTube. They’re both under the handle sudo, S-U-D-O, underscore actual, so both YouTube and Instagram. It’s pretty much all I post is these kinds of events, is cross country shooting events. Which I mean they’re really, they are, full disclosure, I don’t like long distance running either. I’m a sprinter, I like to sprint, I like to sprint as fast as I possibly can. The long distance component is, yeah, I don’t like to just jog endlessly, but man out in the rural country, it’s fantastic. I love the adventure race aspect of it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I’m imagining or tell me, obviously we talked a bunch about Texas and the nearby environs. Where else are these events happening?

Sudo Actual:

All over the country. The eastern side of the United States is just also absolutely popping very much as Texas is with the number of events that are coming online. Unfortunately, I don’t see too much out west, even though it seems like there would be ample opportunity for land out that way to host an event like this. There’s a few of them, but it’s becoming more and more popular. This has been around in the United States since I think around 2001, but again, those events, they were kind of few and far between, and now there’s more events than I can fit into my schedule.

Steven Sashen:

Given that winter biathlon exists in the Olympics, are there people talking about trying to get this as a whatever, I don’t want to say trial sport for Summer Olympics?

Sudo Actual:

I have not heard any bit of that. Again, I think there’s a difficulty here in the spectator sport aspect, so-

Steven Sashen:

Good point.

Sudo Actual:

… that’s the hard part with these. It’s also the hard part too is getting a lot of people pushed through these courses. They typically just daylight hours, daylight restrictions. When you start bumping up to 120 competitors, you run into issues with the daylight since they have to go out kind of staggered. So that would be amazing, to see a cross country style sport like this in the Olympics would be really cool. Of course, they’d have to water it down for the Europeans and their pellet guns. But hey, the more eyes on this is probably the better, the more opportunity there is for people to actually combine both trail running or just their love of hiking and getting to shoot some stuff along the way too. That’s for me is a Texan, that’s the best weekend I can think of is camp, hike and shoot.

Steven Sashen:

That sounds great. Well, once again, Phillip, it’s been an absolute pleasure and thank you so much. For everybody else, I do hope you go check out sudo underscore actual and find out more about this. Again, and if you think this is totally not your thing, I would say definitely check it out. Whenever there’s, for me, whenever I have some serious reaction like that, I go, I got to give that a whirl because why am I having that thought about something I know very little about or certainly haven’t experienced it.

Speaking of experience, everybody, feel free to head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find all the other podcast episodes, the previous episodes of which there are many, and where we dive into a whole lot of things about natural movement and all sorts of applications as this is an example of one that you probably never imagined, and you’ll also find where you can find the podcast on other places that you can find podcasts, where we are on social media. And if you have any requests, any suggestions, anybody you want to recommend to be on the podcast, if you want to tell me that I’ve got a case of cranio-rectal reorientation syndrome, whatever it is, you can email me at move M-O-V-E @jointhemovementmovement.com.

Once again, spread the word, share, like, subscribe, hit the bell icon on YouTube, give us a thumbs up or a five-star review where you can. Like I said, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe, but most importantly, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Sudo Actual:

Thanks.

The BEST Exercises You’ve NEVER Heard Of

marketdomination — Wed, 15 Jan 2025 00:00:16 +0000

Nick Nilsson, widely known as the “Mad Scientist of Muscle,” is a fitness expert renowned for his innovative and unconventional training methods. With over 20 years of experience in bodybuilding and strength training, Nick has crafted unique exercises and programs that challenge traditional fitness norms.

Holding degrees in Physical Education and Psychology, Nick blends advanced biomechanics and anatomy with creative exercise design. He is the author of several books, including The Best Exercises You’ve Never Heard Of and Gluteus to the Maximus – Build a Bigger Butt NOW!, as well as the creator of the “Time-Volume Training” method, which maximizes muscle growth using efficient, adaptable techniques.

Nick shares his expertise through his website FitStep.com and contributions to major fitness platforms like Bodybuilding.com and Iron Man Magazine. Inspired by his father’s commitment to fitness and his own journey from endurance sports to bodybuilding, he has built a career helping others achieve their health and physique goals.

Known for transforming limited resources into effective workouts, Nick continues to inspire fitness enthusiasts worldwide, living up to his reputation as the “Mad Scientist of Muscle.”

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Nick Nilsson about optimizing movement patterns for efficient muscle growth.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How incorporating innovative exercise approaches optimizing movement yields better results.

– Why you should engage your deep core muscles with unique exercises like sitting at a desk and lifting your legs.

– How you should focus on angiogenesis for muscle growth by performing high-rep sets followed by heavy low-rep steps.

– Why utilizing loaded resistance stretching stimulates muscle growth through hyperplasia.

– How angio sets and connective tissue training help you grow your muscles while improving circulation.

Connect with Nick:

Guest Contact Info
X: @nicknilsson

Instagram: @nicknilsson1

Facebook: facebook.com/nicknilssonmadscientist

Links Mentioned: https://fitstep.com/

Connect with Steven:

Website

https://www.dremilysplichal.com/

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

If you are bored with your workouts, don’t like working out, or think that working out involves basically the same six exercises, you just need to squat and bench and deadlift, blah, blah, blah, well, I’ve got news for you. There are many, many other ways and things that are super interesting, super unusual, super exciting, and work for wherever you are, whatever age you are, including people like me who are 60 plus, and we’re going to be chatting with someone. Well, more about that in just a moment. Welcome to The MOVEMENT Movement Podcast for the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body where we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the outright myths that you’ve been told and lies that you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, workout, do anything, and to do it enjoyably and efficiently and effectively.

Did I say enjoyably trick question? Of course I did because look, I know if you don’t enjoy it, you’re not going to keep doing it. And that’s one of the reasons I’m really excited about what we’re going to be doing on this call. I’m Steven Sashen, the host of The MOVEMENT Movement Podcast, and the co-founder and chief barefoot officer here at XeroShoes.com. We call this The MOVEMENT Movement because we, that involves you, I’ll tell you about that in a sec, are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do and to do it best that way. And we break down the propaganda myths, et cetera, et cetera. Like I said, more importantly, the movement part that involves you is just simple.

Spread the word. If you like what you’re hearing here, a, go to our website www.jointhemovementmovement.com and just share. You’ll find all the previous episodes there. Give us a thumbs up, like us, give us a good review, give us five stars here, hit the bell icon on YouTube. You know the gist. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. All right, let’s get started, shall we? Nick Nielsen, first of all, a pleasure. Secondly, tell people who you are, what you do, and what you think you might be doing here.

Nick Nielsen:

Well, I’m known as a mad scientist of muscle. I’ve been training 35 years and basically that entire time, I’m looking for new ways to accomplish the results that I want to get like build muscle, build strength, that kind of thing. And I’m not satisfied with the normal way of doing things. So basically, from the very first time I started training, I’ve been looking for new and better ways to train, to lift weights. Primarily, like I said, movement is a big one there too, but primarily, I do things differently, not for the sake of just doing differently, but for trying to do them better.

Steven Sashen:

And first of all, before anyone asks if you’re watching the video, yes, Nick is not a whistleblower or in the federal witness relocation program. We just have some video issues. We figured, screw it, let’s just do this without trying to fix the video issues because we want to get this out and have some fun. So I’m trying to think of my favorite way of doing this. So to be clear, I mean when I think about you, I think you are the most creative person I’ve ever seen in terms of coming up with ways of doing exercise. But it’s not about just coming up with a new exercise, it’s like how does the body move in this way and what can I do to optimize that?

Sometimes if I have a limited set of resources at my disposal, if I don’t have a home gym, full of everything you could have possibly want, if I don’t even go to a gym, if I go to a gym that doesn’t have anything other than the bare minimum, et cetera. But you’re, so again, you’re not doing it just for the sake of going, hey, look at the crazy crap that I’ve come up with, but for a whole different reason, it’s all based on understanding movement.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. Essentially with all the people on YouTube and Twitter and Instagram and all that, just doing crazy stuff for the sake of crazy stuff to get clicks and likes, that’s not what I’m all about. What I do is I don’t even care if it looks crazy or not. If it works better, I’m going to do it. Some of the stuff I’ve done, you may not even notice the difference from regular stuff, but it’s just the intention of how you’re doing it. That’s different. For example, I’ve got a trick for doing barbell bench press where when you’re lowering the bar, instead of just lowering the bar, you actually try and bend the bar forward and out, and that actually brings the lats down, locks in the shoulders, and gives you a perfect positioning all the way down.

So instead of just lowering the bar under control, you’re actually getting a good negative on the chest and you’re actually setting yourself up in perfect position to do the bench press. But you wouldn’t know it by looking at it because it looks exactly the same, but it’s just instead of just holding the bar like that, you’re trying to bend the bar up and forward like that. You’re trying to snap it at half forward.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, basically, you’re trying to make it upside down. You is the intention is the best way I can describe it.

Nick Nielsen:

Sort of like that, but it’s hard to describe actually. That’s basically, imagine…

Steven Sashen:

Well, wait, so here, let’s do it this way. So if we could bend the bar, if we were Superman and bending the bar, so we’re lying on the bench, the bar is above us basically straight over our chest. If we were going to be Superman and bend with the U shape that we’re creating, be with the bottom of the U towards our head or towards the ceiling?

Nick Nielsen:

Towards the ceiling.

Steven Sashen:

There you go. Yeah, that’s what I was going for.

Nick Nielsen:

Here’s the difference though. Most people when they recommend that, you bend the bar down like that, right? That’s what you’re thinking. You’re actually trying to hold here and bend the bar forward and up.

Steven Sashen:

Got it, got it.

Nick Nielsen:

So you’re gripping the bar here and you’re pushing up like that rather than bending down like that.

Steven Sashen:

Nice.

Nick Nielsen:

It’s a very subtle difference, but the difference between that means you’re kind of relaxing the chest, whereas that you’re actually engaging the chest.

Steven Sashen:

Got it. I love it.

Nick Nielsen:

Very simple, very subtle, and you wouldn’t notice the difference by looking at anybody doing it at all.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, you can’t see the motion because this is basically a metric. So I want to back up a half a step and say, so the exercises you come up with and even more of the workouts you come up with, and I want to talk about both, but they’re designed for different purposes. And I want to say this just so people have a context for why they really, no matter where they are in their fitness journey from been doing this forever, to never picked up a weight in their life or never thought about doing anything other than whatever activity they currently do. And I’ll get the ball rolling, you fill in the blank. You do some things that are metabolic conditioning, some things that are about strength, some things that are about hypertrophy, building muscle. So do you want to break down the types of things that you, or the categories of things that you are thinking about when you’re putting things together?

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. I mean, when I’m doing exercise, especially workouts like you said, the exercises are kind of the building blocks and then you put them into the specific workouts that are designed for very specific metabolic goals. Like I said, you’ve got metabolic conditioning workouts, you’ve got strength stuff, you’ve got hypertrophy stuff, you’ve got physiological oriented stuff. You’ve got, basically for people who have never trained before, one of the first things I always get them started with is core training, core workouts to stabilize the core, which that’s where all your movement comes from. So that’s kind of the most important thing to me is to strengthen that area, and then you can progress in multiple directions from there. But in terms of metabolic conditioning, you’re doing stuff still with a strength focus, but with very little rest and with basically the idea of moving fatigue around your body.

So for example, you going from chest to legs to back, so you’re kind of bouncing the workload around to different areas while you’re still using relatively heavy weights and really stimulating the body for hypertrophy at the same time but while still getting that metabolic conditioning effect. If you’re wanting, doing training for strength, you go in a very different direction. You take long rest periods, very little variety and very basic movements, and then with assistance, exercises that support the weak points of those basic movements. Hypertrophy training, another, it’s a very different thing from the other two. So there’s so many different directions you can go with this in terms of you don’t just grab a weight and start working out. If you have a specific goal, you need a very specific plan to attack that goal essentially.

Steven Sashen:

And one of the things that also, I mean I’m going to kind of bounce around, because when I think about the way you put stuff together, it feels very four-dimensional chest to me. So there’s kind of different principles and then different exercises and different workouts and all these things, and you put them mix and match them together in really fascinating ways. In fact, I’m going to just share the story I mentioned to you the last time we chatted. You used to do a thing every Friday that was a metabolic workout, and the office that we had in Downtown Boulder or actually outside of Downtown Boulder was right next to a gym. And I said to them, “Look, I’m just going to come in on Fridays at the end of my workday and just do something. I don’t need any help. Will you just let me do that?”

And they went, “Sure.” And I had a long, hard week. This is when I was working until 2:00 in the morning a lot of the time. And the last thing I really needed to do on a Friday night was go into a workout. I really needed a nap, but I would go in and these things would kick my butt and they made me so happy. But it was also what was interesting, some of the times we were working on just, and I want you to talk about this because this relates to your latest book, some of the things we’re just working on building, I know where this goes, building the infrastructure we need for everything else to work, building the scaffolding thing we need for everything else to work and kind of working on top of that. And when you say core, most people think, oh, doing sit-ups and planks, but you got a whole other way of framing that.

So I know this is getting, I’m being kind of confused when I say this only because there’s just so much I want to do, and it’s a Monday morning and I’m not awake yet. So can you talk about kind of, again, there’s the different goals, but then there’s those things that allow for those goals like capillarization, et cetera, et cetera. I’ll let you do those, but also I don’t want to forget, when you talk about core, let’s give some examples of the kind of stuff that you’re talking about that are exercises that most people would never think of that are probably more effective than what they’ve already been doing.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. Let’s start with the core stuff. The very simplest core thing I have people do to start with is they have them sit it at a desk and have them put an elbow on their desk and I have the left elbow and I have them lift up their right leg and then just push down as hard as you can with that left elbow. You feel core, deep core engaging right there?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Nick Nielsen:

Just do that for 30 seconds. Switch sides, do that for 30 seconds. That’s hitting those deep core muscles and you can sit there looking like you’re bored, out of your mind. You just look and then you’re working your core.

Steven Sashen:

No, I feel that transverse abdominis, I feel that. I mean, I feel that in a bunch of things, basically from my ribs down to my upper thigh. I mean it’s like-

Nick Nielsen:

Exactly.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Nick Nielsen:

And that’s literally, it’s like no equipment at all. You can do that while you’re sitting at your desk and 30 seconds of that, it’s going to be better than sit-ups for flattening your stomach. It’s going to strengthen your core. I have a book on this stuff. It’s like you can do this leaning against the post while you’re waiting for the bus. There’s your post, you’re leaning that, stand at one foot, and you’re just kind of leaning and just that, isometric. Everything contracts in that deep core, because it’s like you said, it’s not just the six-pack abs, it’s all those deep muscles that go around your six-pack abs and it’s your lower back as well. Everything has to be worked and worked in kind of conjunction with each other and-

Steven Sashen:

Well, there’s another one that I don’t think I’d ever heard it anywhere. It made sense as soon as you set it from some other things I did, and I do this when I’m taking my dog for a walk every morning. I just basically pull my belly button into my spine as much as I can. And then if I kind of bear down a little, I can feel that really hitting the transverse abdominis as well. And then just like how many breaths can I do while I’m really, really contracting all of that and sucking everything into just kind of train those muscles about how to engage and love doing that.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, it’s literally starting with simple stuff like that. You can do it while you’re doing other things like when you’re walking the dog, when you’re sitting at your desk, when you’re waiting in line. There’s so many things you can do just without even any weights at all, just by body and positioning and stuff like that.

Steven Sashen:

And this is also true, not just for doing core stuff. I mean, we can talk about weights versus body weight stuff and some of the creative things you’ve done there as well. But I want to back up to that other thing that I made when I was combining too many things at once of just body systems, if you will, and how those people don’t think about those and how important they are for whatever your fitness goals are.

Nick Nielsen:

Absolutely, yeah, and that’s one of the things I’ve noticed, especially for people as start getting into the 40s, 50s, 60s, and stuff like that. These systems, these underlying systems that support your muscle mass, they start to deteriorate essentially. It’s one of the reasons why you lose muscle as you get older. You mentioned the capillarization. That’s a big one. Circulation is everything as far as keeping your muscle mass, because if your muscles don’t get nutrients, they don’t get oxygen, they don’t get fed, they go away. So I’ve got training that’s specifically designed to rebuild those capillaries and redevelop those systems. So you’ve got circulation, you’ve got connective tissue, which is your fascia, your cartilage, your tendons, ligaments, bones, all the structural stuff. I like to kind of liken it to a house where you can build a bigger, stronger house when you’re using two by sixes versus two by fours or two by twos or whatever.

As you get older, those beams start to deteriorate, so we can actually strengthen those beams and rebuild those beams. We can redo the plumbing, which is your circulatory system. We can redo the electrical, which is your nervous system, make that more efficient. We can rebuild more muscle mass. When you’re losing muscle, you actually lose muscle fibers as you get older as well. So I’ve developed hyperplasia training, which is splitting muscle fibers into new muscle fibers rather than just building the ones that you got and is good to just build up the ones you’ve got, but you can actually develop new ones as well to replace the ones that your body is losing as you get older. So so many different structural things that support basically your body’s ability to carry and hold muscle mass and strength.

Steven Sashen:

Yes and all of those are super interesting, and the workouts are, again, things that you many people have probably never seen. Actually, do you want to give an example of something for each of those four components?

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, absolutely. The circulatory system, basically you want to do really high reps. For example, I call it angiosets, which is angiogenesis, which means creation of new blood vessels. So to do that, we actually want to, it sounds awful, but you want rip new blood vessels into your body. You want to actually, it sounds awful, but that’s the process on a very low level. You’re basically forcing so much blood into the muscle that you’re basically blowing those out and creating new pathways, so you’re opening those suckers back up again.

So we put a lot of blood into that muscle with a very high rep set, very lightweight. Now the weird thing is then you take a heavier weight and you do very low reps, so you do 50 reps of a dumbbell bench press and then do two reps with a heavy weight three times the weight on a dumbbell bench press, which dramatically amps up the pressure in that muscle, which blows out. So essentially we’re filling it up with blood and then we’re squeezing the crap out of it and just blowing out those pathways and creating and forging new pathways, and then you’re doing it again. You repeat it for four to six rounds of that.

Steven Sashen:

Now, when you describe it, it sounds like the image that pops in my mind, and I imagine possibly others as well, is that you end up looking like you’ve just been beaten up, but you don’t end up looking bruised. I mean, yes, it’s not massive trauma. It’s this very, very small level, single blood cell, thick kind of microtrauma. And this is the thing that I think people really don’t appreciate is that what’s making your body change is mild traumatic events that you then heal and repair and recover from and become better when you organize that properly.

I see people in the gym, it’s actually, Elaine and I were on a boat with some people and they had a gym on this boat, and I watched some guy doing bench press stuff with 20 pounds, and he would do 10 reps, and it’s like you to do two of those. That didn’t do anything. I mean, you could do that without breaking the sweat, without blinking, without putting any effort. Nothing’s actually being forced to change. And so this is part of what we’re doing is finding these ways of forcing these specific changes. But yes, you don’t end up looking like you were in a bad bar fight.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. No, you haven’t been beaten with that two by four or anything like that. So it’s microcirculation. It’s really the tiny, tiny blood vessels that we’re looking to open up and yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, literally a blood vessel. I mean, that’s how those things work. Okay, so onto the next one.

Nick Nielsen:

So next, we’ve got the connective tissue training. This is actually, you’re going to look like you’re not doing anything because essentially, for example, the best example is to go into a squat rack, put a bar on your back and stand up, put 300, 400 pounds on the bar and just stand there for a minute. And literally, that’s all you’re doing. You’re just standing there with weight on your body. It’s squishing down all your connective tissue, it’s squishing all the fluid out of all your connective tissue. Now, connective tissue has a notoriously poor blood supply, and as you get older, this connective tissue dries out so you get less fluid in there. So it’s harder to heal injuries, it’s harder to build strength because of this. So what we’re doing is we’re putting that weight on and we’re literally, just 1, 2, 3 minutes, we’re just letting everything kind of squeeze out because of that loading, constant loading.

We take the weight off and then we do it like a dead hang from a chin-up bar. So you’re creating this effect where you’re squeezing the fluid out and then you’re sucking it back in and you’re creating a bellows effect. So you’re actually pushing fluid out and then you’re forcing your body to suck it back in. And you put that with connective tissue nutrients like collagen, vitamin C. You’re forcing circulation and nutrients to repair the connective tissue in there when it’s needed most, and it’s creating that circulation and it’s highly effective. You can actually heal old injuries that have never healed before because that connective tissue is so dried out, you’re not getting that circulation in, you’re not getting the nutrients in. This actually forces the nutrients in and you can actually heal old injuries. I’ve had people say that my knee injury from 20 years ago, I don’t even feel it anymore after doing this stuff, and that’s literally from standing there with weight on your back.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Okay, number three.

Nick Nielsen:

So this hyperplasia training, hypertrophy, you’re probably familiar with, that’s building muscle fibers. Hyperplasia is splitting muscle fibers. So stretch, loaded stretching is what we’re doing here, and this is loaded resistant stretching. So you’re not just taking a dumbbell fly and you’re holding the stretch position passively. You’re actually, say you’re taking 60 pound dumbbells, you’re holding that bottom of the dumbbell fly. You’re coming up just a little out of that bottom stretch with 98% of the effort that would require to lift it. So you’re actually trying to lift it, but just not enough to actually lift it.

So that’s the active resistant stretch that we’re looking for, not just passively letting the dumbbells come down and down and down, which can actually be tough on your connective tissue. We don’t want to do that. We actually want that active resistant stretching at the bottom. It’s that position that we’re looking for, and that puts massive tension on those muscles and actually creates the stimulus for the body to basically split the muscle fibers and to use satellite cells, which are part of the process to repair that with. I’ve talked to Dr. Jose Antonio about this. He did studies on birds where they achieved a 300% muscle growth by doing this kind of loaded stretching.

Steven Sashen:

Well, this is what’s interesting. You’ve been talking about that type of training for much longer than the last 9 to 12 months where the whole idea of stretch-mediated hypertrophy has become like what everyone in fitness is talking about. It’s like that research and other research about the importance of the stretch phase is now what everyone’s all giddy about, and you’ve been talking about this for ages.

Nick Nielsen:

Oh, yeah. I’ve been doing this for 20 years.

Steven Sashen:

But wait, so do you feel vindicated or do you feel like, I can’t believe people are just catching up?

Nick Nielsen:

You know what, 20 years ago people were talking about it too.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, were they?

Nick Nielsen:

It literally goes in waves and cycles.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, funny.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, it was a big thing 20 years ago and now it’s coming around again. And then I’m sure keto oil would coming back around again and everything comes back around again. It is really funny how it works. Yeah, people say there’s nothing new under the sun. It’s like in a way that’s true, because a lot of it just kind of gets repackaged and the next generation finds out about it and wow, this is the best thing ever now, and it’s like it was the best thing ever 20 years ago too.

Steven Sashen:

I’m starting to wear bell-bottoms again. No.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. All right, so that was number three. Number four.

Nick Nielsen:

So number four, we’re looking at nervous system efficiency and activation. So when we get older, you actually do lose nerve cells. You lose the capability of your nervous system. So for example, most people are functioning about maybe 60% of their efficiency. We use that as a guide. Elite athletes can go up to 85 to 90% is how they build strength without getting bigger. So if you’re functioning about 60 to 70, the training I’m doing here allows you to amp that up. So instead of using 60% of your capacity, you’re now using 70 or 75% of your efficiency and capacity. So you’re building strength just by using what you’ve got better. So one of the best methods I’ve found for doing that is single rep cluster training where, for example, you take a weight, that’s about maybe 90 to 95% of your one rep max.

So it’s a pretty heavy weight, something you could maybe get three to four reps with, and you’re going to do 20 reps with it but in a very specific way. You’re going to do one rep, rest 20 seconds, do one rep, rest 20 seconds, and repeat that for 20 reps. And what that does is when you’re doing a set of more than one rep, your first rep is never your best rep, it’s your second rep, because your first rep is just your body getting used to figuring out what it needs to do.

Your second rep has already put that pattern into the nervous system so it’s more efficient, and it’s technically better. So what we’re doing is a set of 22nd reps, so a bunch of good reps, really high quality reps, and with just enough rest in between to recharge your energy systems so you can do those reps. So you’ll find a weight. You could normally get three to four reps with, you can do a set of 20 reps like this, and it actually feels really good. Your 10 to 15th reps are going to be your best reps, and you’re going to feel strong all the way through that.

Steven Sashen:

I think I just realized that if I had to describe one thing, that I know that you do that, I haven’t seen other people do that I find that I found really fun, frankly, and very effective is variations of taking a weight that is some percentage of what you could do for one rep and doing different things with that, whether it’s one rep, 20 seconds, one rep, 20 seconds, or I mean just various things about time under tension in different ways where you’re modulating or mediating, changing variables that people don’t think about how much rest between something or going up and down with the number of reps you’re doing and just various combinations of time and effort in a way that lets you do things that you just frankly would never think to try or wouldn’t realize would have the effect that they would have.

I can’t remember which thing I did. I just remember it was about a year and a half ago, Elaine and I were on an anniversary vacation, and I remember doing one thing. I can’t remember which exercise it was or which workout it was, the structure of it, but basically, I was just doing chest press for 40 minutes straight with varying degrees of rest and varying degree and what I had done. And I think it was probably the same weight, just different amounts of rest based on what I could do. Can you describe just philosophically what you’re doing, describe one of the workouts, then talk about philosophically why that does what it does and some variations that kind of play with that whole game of what you can do over what amount of time?

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, absolutely. And the way you’re describing, I think is my time volume training protocol, which essentially, you’re taking a weight that you can get for 10 reps and you do sets of three reps with it. So you’re basically front loading the workload. This kind of training is all about how much work you’re doing, not the intensity of the work that you’re doing. So it’s actually a really good way to train when you’re feeling a bit beaten up, feeling a little bit more fatigued, maybe your nervous system isn’t quite as juiced up as it should be. So you can actually build muscle really effectively like this. And essentially, you take a set weight, you can do 10 reps, you do a set of three reps with it and you rest 10 seconds, and then you do another set of three, and then you rest 10 seconds and then another set of three.

So gradually, you’re kind of building up the fatigue. When you get to the point where you can no longer get three reps where you’re on two, and it would be tough to get three, don’t do that third rep, don’t even try that third rep, set it down, rest 20 seconds, and keep going on the three rep sets. And then you keep doing 20 seconds rest until again, you hit that point where you think you would have to really push it to get the third rep, and then you rest 30 seconds and you keep doing that. So you’re basically doing more work upfront while you’re more fresh.

And then as you get more fatigued, you extend the rest periods. So you’re basically still allowing your body to function at a very high level with perfect technique, perfect form. You’re not going to be getting anywhere near any sort of injury level of loading on your body, but just building up that workload, you’re kind of sneaking up on that fatigue point. So you’re hitting all of these muscle fibers that you don’t normally get with intensity kind of training, because if you’re trying to hit all your muscle fibers at once, you’re never going to achieve full fatigue on those muscle fibers. Whereas with this, you can kind of sneak up on it, and you can kind of gradually require your body to activate more and more muscle fibers. So by the time you’re done with that 40 minute workout, you’ve hit literally every muscle fiber in your chest you’ve got.

Steven Sashen:

And it just occurred to me, there’s another way of thinking of this where again, lately people have been, the research has been coming out, people have been talking about that, whether you’re doing high weights, sorry, yeah, heavy weights and lower reps versus lighter weights and more reps. The important thing is getting closer to failure or as close to failure as you want to get those last couple of reps. And so getting to failure or getting very close to failure without putting yourself in a position where you’re going to get injured is really important. And with what you’ve just described that time volume training, you’re basically just doing that over and over and over more than you would do if you just did a set of eight and that last one was hard, then a set of seven and the last one is hard, and then the next set is six, and the last one is hard.

It’s like you’re getting that way, way more often in a fixed period of time. And again, like you said, it’s not that the workout is easy, but it doesn’t have that same kind of hit by two by four feeling except that you feel the effect without feeling the beaten up part that makes you, like I said before, if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to want to keep doing it. And to a certain extent, these can be difficult but enjoyable because it just doesn’t have the same kind of stress inducing something that what most people think of as a weight routine creates.

Nick Nielsen:

Exactly. And that’s one of the big things. The reason this technique works so well sometimes with a lot of people who’ve kind of over trained their nervous system, doing a lot of really heavy, really hard stuff, they pull back to something like this. You’re not getting that stress response. You’re not getting that cortisol dump. You are not getting that adrenaline. You don’t need to take a pre-workout for this. You just start. You don’t even really need to hardly warm up for this because you’re using a weight. You can normally get 10 and you’re doing three. So the actual work, it’s a very time efficient kind of training too, because you don’t need to spend 20 minutes warming up. You literally do maybe just the bar on the bench press put your working weight on, and you start going and the workout is your warm-up as you’re doing it. And yeah, you’re really, more and more of your muscle fibers get to that point in your failure when you do something like this than if you’re doing, like you said, one set of eight or couple sets of eight only is very specific.

Steven Sashen:

Especially if you’re doing a couple sets of eight where you’re not really not going to get to that failure point until the last set when you’re really pushing. Because the first few, you could have done more, but it says you’re supposed to do three by eight. It’s like…

Nick Nielsen:

So you’re holding back on the first and the second, and then you’re pushing it on the third. So you’re really getting very limited. Those muscle fibers are getting a very limited exposure to that beautiful point, so to speak. Whereas something like this, you’re gradually bringing involving more and more of those muscle fibers in to get to that point. So by the time you get, and you don’t have to do 40 minutes, you can do blocks of 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes. You’re going to basically get to that point with more muscle fibers without the stress of the fear factor almost.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Well, no, to be clear, I did the 40-minute thing because I got up about an hour and a half before Elena does. I had time to kill, and it was like, I wonder if I could do this. I wonder what it’s like. And that’s another thing that I really enjoy. It’s like you put these things together and they’re intriguing. It’s like, I wonder what that feels like. I’ve never done anything like that before, and that’s a very motivating thing of just the curiosity factor.

Nick Nielsen:

Oh, yeah, that’s what keeps me going for. I’ve been doing this 35 years and I keep coming up with stuff that I’m like, “Hmm, that’s interesting. I got to try that.”

Steven Sashen:

I’m guessing that you have recorded in some way every exercise or exercise variant or workout variant you’ve come up with. Am I correct?

Nick Nielsen:

Starting from about to 2000, probably ’07, yeah. Everything before that was before cell phones and cameras, but I’ve kind of gone through a lot of that.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I don’t even mean recorded on video and whatnot. I just mean even on paper, including a single paper.

Nick Nielsen:

Oh, yeah. I’ve got 13, 200 page notebooks from before I started recording stuff. Literally, yeah, I would write everything down in a notebook after. If I learned something new, I’d write it down.

Steven Sashen:

So let’s just do exercise variance first. Do you have a number for how many you’ve come up with?

Nick Nielsen:

If I had to go off the top of my head of the past 30 something years at least, it’s got to be in over 10,000 easy.

Steven Sashen:

And for anyone who thinks that’s insane, I’m going to give you, again, Nick, I’m going to set you up. So imagine you want to work on your bicep, which is going to involve bending your arm at the elbow at the very least, and possibly bending, doing something with your shoulder too, because the bicep inserts around your shoulder as well as on your forearm. So if you think all you can do is a bicep curl just for the fun of it, pick a different angle, pick a different, I mean, hang upside down, I’m making shit up but almost not. Hang upside down, hang sideways, go underwater. You don’t do anything like that. But I mean, if you start to think, I’ve almost tempted you to try to find a way to program some AI model with the way you think about how to approach, how do I want to attack this muscle in some new way?

I mean, I know that when I’m writing an ad, for example, if I’m going to write an ad saying, Xero Shoes are the greatest shoes you’ve ever worn. The next thing I’m going to write is going to be the opposite. It’s kind of like don’t wear these things or else. I mean, there’s a formula that I kind of go through in my head for coming up with things that are just creative ideas, because I’ve just done it so long that I know there’s 15 different things that I’m going to think about to see if I can make those work. And I’m guessing that you do something similar as you’re coming up with something new.

Nick Nielsen:

I do, and a lot of the times I actually come up with some of my best stuff based on something that’s completely unrelated to it. I’ll do an exercise, it’s like a chest exercise. Then all of a sudden I’m like, huh, I felt that in my calves. And then I go, I wish I could say I was kidding, but sometimes that’s how the process works.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, wait. I want to know what chest exercise you did that you felt in your calves.

Nick Nielsen:

I think it was incline barbell bench press, and I thought I’ll put the bench up against the wall. I’ll set my feet up on the wall, and as I’m doing the bench press, I’m going to try and do calf raise. I’m going to try and push. I’m going to try and slide my body up the bench as I’m doing the dumbbell bench press to see if that gets stronger activation by activating the legs in the core. And as I’m doing this, yeah, boom calf exercise and not a very good one. Mind you, it didn’t really work out to be something that I would actually recommend training, but that leads me in the direction of like, okay, now what can I do? Okay, that actually worked my calves to some degree. Let me see how I can make that into a calf exercise. And then I take that concept and I run with that. So it’s like the other day, I did a band curl where I’m hanging a kettlebell from a band between a bar kettlebell hanging from a band, and then the handle on the other side.

And that worked so well for biceps. I did it for chest, and then all of a sudden for chest, I’m like, “Oh, wonder if I do it for deadlifts?” And doing it for deadlifts was actually phenomenal because you pick it up off ground, the kettlebell. When you’re right below the knees, that’s when the kettlebell comes off the ground, but it doesn’t suddenly come off the ground. It likes gradually then right at that sticking point where a lot of people fail right below the knees. It adds 90 pounds to your deadlift right there. So all of a sudden, you own 225, now you’re doing 315 right at your sticking point. And it’s phenomenal for forcing you to grind out that rep. And then the angle is perfect for the lockout as well. So because the band is angled, you’re coming back like that, your glutes and your lower back are fighting against that diagonal tension of the band to get hip extension. So it’s like all of these things based on throwing a kettlebell through a band, threw a kettlebell and seeing what happens.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, because that’s something that most people would think about. What if I got some bands, I got some kettlebells? You’re sort of like it’s a Mickey Rooney, Judy Garland movie. It’s like, I got a barn, I got a stage. It’s like, I got a kettlebell, I got a band. What can I do with those two things? And away it goes. I totally love it. But you’ve also done this just on the body weight side. I mean, one of the most recent things you put out was about doing pushups in a way that are good for the upper chest that get rid of the one problem that pretty much no one ever thought of that gets in the way of doing upper chest based pushups. Would you like to talk about that? Just cracked me up.

Nick Nielsen:

Oh, yeah. Basically when you’re doing pushups for your upper chest, you elevate your legs. So basically, you’re creating that angle like an incline bench press. Now, the problem with your body position when you’re doing that is your face.

Steven Sashen:

So speak for yourself, Nick.

Nick Nielsen:

Well, for me personally, my face gets in the way. So rather than digging a hole on the floor, you elevate your hands up onto a bench. You elevate your feet onto a bar higher than that, so you’re angled, but there’s room for your face to not contact the floor. Because when you’re doing foot elevated pushup on the floor to get full range of motion, you have to flatten your chest out. So it basically makes it like a regular pushup again. You’re getting some more resistance of course, but you’re not getting that angle for really hitting the upper chest. You need to basically take your face out of the equation. And so by doing that, by putting your hands on the edge of a bench, flat bench and angling your feet up on a bar, you’re getting that perfect angle the entire time. And you can maintain it without changing your head position, without changing your neck position, and without flattening your torso, without flattening yourself at the bottom. So you’re actually hitting the upper chest and it makes a big difference, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

You get that bigger range of motion. You’re not worried about smashing your face into the ground. You just gave me a flashback. When I was a junior high and high school gymnast, we just did chair pushups, so chair under each hand, chair under your foot, and then we’d raise the chair. So similar idea but this have kind of, we’d make it wide enough so it kind of added a fly aspect to it, because that’s an important thing in gymnastics as well, having that kind of strength. And again, the difference there is if you push too hard, that last rep, you end up falling in your face. So yours is a safer version of what we were doing but then again, we were stupid children. So if you fell in your face, that was a badge of honor. It’s like, how’d you break your nose? Pushups. Cool.

Nick Nielsen:

Pushups, yeah. Right on, man. Oh, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

In fact, quick story for the fun of it, my gymnastics coach, who was the junior high gym teacher, he was also a, I think three-time world and five-time national tumbling champion and just one of the greatest teachers of all sorts, just happened to be gymnastics. Our first day at gym practice, gymnastics practice, he hands us young boys a sheet of ten to the inch graph paper and says, “Each one of those squares is 10 pushups. Whoever fills out the page first, front end back, gets a Coke.” And five young men immediately dropped and did as many pushups as we could, and it got to the point where we would just be doing them throughout the day.

We would just drop into a set of however many we could and the next day it would be. So how many yesterday? A thousand. Shit, I only did 800. And then we would drop into a hundred, and then the other guy would do a hundred, and then I have to do 150. I mean, we were literally doing a thousand plus pushups a day, and it was just this super sneaky way to get us to do strength training by competing with each other, because anyone who’s going to show up for the gymnastics team, he knows it’s just a competitive douche.

We’re there for a number of reasons. One is we’re competitive, and this is just one way of it showing up, and it worked. It was brilliant. I will tell the story, and I’m not trying to throw any particular gender under the bus, but that’s what it’s going to sound like. Eventually, they killed the men’s gymnastics program in the county that I grew up in, and Jack started switching to coaching women, which he was brilliant at. In fact, after this one gymnast in the Olympics, I watched her floor ex routine. I think she might’ve won.

It was Dominique Dawes, and I called Jack and I said, “Are you coaching Dominique Dawes?” He goes, “Yeah. How’d you know?,” I went, “Because that was my floor ex routine with two moves that I can’t do.” And he goes, “Yep.” So it was great. But anyway, when they killed the men’s gymnastics program, I said, “So now you’re coaching women. What’s the difference?” He goes, “Remember that thing with the graph paper and the pushups?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Remember when I gave it to you guys, you just immediately started to pushup.” So I went, “Yeah.” He goes, “I gave it to them. They immediately started crying,” and now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t highly competitive women there are, but just as a general group, a bunch of 12-year-old boys versus a bunch of 12-year-old girls will have a different attitude about, you want me to do what?

Nick Nielsen:

Versus I can’t wait to do that.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, absolutely. No, and again, if you’re not having fun, don’t do it. And for me, and you know what? For the fun of saying it, I mean, it does really amaze me frankly, that you are doing all of this effectively on your own, if you can think of it that way, because having a partner or having someone walking you through it or having someone you’re competing against, depending on where your mindset is such an important motivator. I mean, my friends that I race with on the track, every time we get together, we each say, “I’m so glad you’re here,” because this is so much harder to do on your own. And even if someone’s not training with you personally, the fact that you are coming out with these things, it does give that feeling that you are part of the process. And I imagine, I mean, I haven’t thought about this until now, but I’m wondering if you hear from people who just talk about how they’re relating to you from the fact that you’re just constantly putting out all this stuff for people to explore and experiment with and discover the effect of.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, and honestly, a lot of that really does help me a lot. I’d be doing this regardless, but when I do put this stuff out and I get feedback from people on how it’s inspiring them to do stuff similar to that, that’s really drives me too. To give you an example, actually, just yesterday, a guy on Instagram messaged me and sent me a video of him doing zercher carries, 315 pounds, walking back 10 feet, walking back into the rack, 10 feet, 315. I think he weighs 160 pounds. So that’s awesome.

Steven Sashen:

Well, hold on, hold on. Let’s describe what the zercher carry is, because if someone hasn’t seen it, just describing it will make it seem even crazier than it is.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. So basically, your arms are kind of at your side. You have a bar across the inside of your elbows here, and you’re carrying it like that, tucked into your body. So you’re not holding it in your hands, you’re holding it in the crooks of your arms, right in front of your stomach essentially. So it’s not on your body, it’s supported by your arm. It doesn’t hurt your biceps. It’s so close in that there’s no chance of that happening. But basically, the guy was taken almost double his body weight and stepping back and stepping back into the rack, and he was inspired by a video that I had posted showing me doing this with double my body weight. So I was about 190 something pounds at the time, and I did it with 400 pounds, and I carried it 30 feet down my gym, turned around, carried it back, and I had these little squat stands.

These are 1950s rusted out York squat stands. I’m using an easy curl bar because the easy curl bar is smaller and it’s easier to turn with, and it has the bends in it, so it actually fits perfectly for your elbows and doesn’t roll forward. So over the course of a few different weeks, I gradually built up to see how much I could do with that exercise. So I worked up to over 400 pounds on this easy curl bar, walking down my gym, turning around and walking back, and that’s the closest I’ve ever come to passing out while doing weight training. I’m not even kidding about that, and that’s even including the time that I squatted 315 pounds for 40 reps.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, my God. Well, this is another thing that you do that I wonder how many people actually take you up on. I mean, the exercise you come up with, the workouts you come up with, these are all doable really by anybody and under any condition. There’s body weight stuff, there’s weight stuff. If you have a certain amount of equipment, you can find something. If you don’t have that equipment, you can find something. But then you do some, I think the technical term is crazy ass endurance shit. So I mean, just describe and talk about any of these and why you do them and what kind of response you get, and if there’s anybody who is trying to have a virtual competition with you on some of this.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. One of the things I’m actually training for is called the Inman Mile, which is the guy who created, his name was Inman. He didn’t accomplish it. Nobody in the world has ever accomplished it. He has not that, no anybody has claimed to have accomplished it. There’s tons of videos of people trying and they don’t get anywhere close to it, because the capability of doing this is very specialized. And I actually think I have a shot at doing this kind of with one modification. So basically you’re carrying 1.5 times your body weight on your back on a bar for a mile nonstop. No, setting it down.

Steven Sashen:

So you weigh 200 pounds, you got 300 pounds, you’re going to do a squat.

Nick Nielsen:

Exactly, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Okay.

Nick Nielsen:

So the goal is to do this nonstop without moving the bar, without taking the bar off, without setting it down, anything. That’s what I’m training for right now, and I was thinking to try and get this last year, but I didn’t get anywhere close. I could see this was going to require a lot more training, specific training for it. So right now, I’m basically, once a week, I’m doing very specific carry training for this goal. The modification I’m going to do is instead of using a straight bar, I’m going to use what’s called a safety squat bar, specifically a Marrs-Bar, which kind of sits on your body more like a backpack, more padding, doesn’t mess up your shoulders.

I tested that long distance with actually a straight bar, and I got about probably about 400, 500 yards with my body weight before my shoulders started really starting to hurt. And within two days, I’m like, there’s no way I can do this physically without breaking my shoulders. So it’s like, I’m going to do this with this specialized kind of bar instead, and right now, I’m to the point where last week I did five sets of two minutes carrying 700 pounds.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, my God.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. So I literally, inside my rack, I put 700 pounds on this bar and I’m just carrying it, stepping back and forth, forward and backwards inside the rack for two minutes straight, no break, set the bar down, rest a couple minutes, do it again. So I did five sets of that with 700 pounds, and that’s going to train those capacities, which actually as I’m getting stronger at this, those weak links are actually changing. So at first, it was breathing capacity. Now it’s kind of lower traps, and I’m to the point where I can literally have 500 pounds on my back and have a normal conversation with somebody without even literally, I shot a video on this a couple of weeks ago where I literally have 500 pounds on my back ,and I’m talking to the camera and I’m explaining what I’m doing, and you wouldn’t even know that this is real weight, but it’s literally like 500 pounds on my body.

Steven Sashen:

What a trip. Needless to say, when you’re ready to actually go for it. Are you planning on calling the Guinness book or recording it so that they can note it?

Nick Nielsen:

Oh, yeah. It’ll definitely be recorded. Nobody will believe it if it’s not recorded.

Steven Sashen:

So Inman never actually did it. He just came up with this idea and somehow people have decided, sure, what the hell?

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah. There was drinking involved as I understand it, and he just say yeah. He was an Olympic weightlifter and said, 1.5 times body weight. Let’s see what happens. I think he got maybe 600 yards with 1.5 times body weight, so he made a good distance out of it but yeah.

Steven Sashen:

And it is interesting if you think about doing it, I mean, most people think that it’s the weight itself that’s the problem. But the first thing I thought is just holding a bar on your back that way. In and of itself is difficult and stressful. Ironically, when you’re actually squatting, you get to kind of relax your shoulders and your upper back a little bit, because as you’re going down, you’re under that vertical position where you’re having to keep things in place, I mean, holy crap, there’s things that get activated that you would just never think of that would be the limiting factor.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, and it’s continuously changing. I got up to the point where I did about 80% of my body weight for a mile continuously in September, and it’s about 25 minutes to do all that under load. With a lighter weight, it was about 22 minutes. With, by the time I do it, I’m going to aim to be about 180 pounds body weight, so lifting, carrying 270. After I did the 700 pounds in the sets, I actually put 335 on the bar to see if I could go for 10 minutes straight, and I managed to get to eight minutes straight. So basically walking back and forth in the rack under 335 pounds for eight minutes, and that was like, okay, now I see where this weak link is, and I keep up this training. Once a week, I’ve been doing this and kind of working everything else alongside that, but with the goal of doing that exercise, that distance for that period of time.

Steven Sashen:

What’s the mental component of doing that? I mean, because you’re getting into some very, for lack of better term, elevated spaces physically that… I’m reminded, I was at an event with a ultra runner named Tony Krupicka , and someone said to Tony, “I’ve run a 50-mile race, so I want to train for a hundred-mile race. What do I need to do?” And Tony said, “Nothing. If you can do 50, you can do a hundred physically. It’s just all in your mind at that point.” What are you experiencing when you’re doing these endurance things that are really pushing the limits?

Nick Nielsen:

Essentially, you have to kind of separate yourself from your body in a lot of ways. I was talking to another guy, he does some stuff like this as well, and he said the Navy SEALs call it the portholing, where it’s like you visualize your body yourself as being outside the porthole of the ship and looking in on what’s happening. So you’re not actually trying to experience the pain of it, but you’re outside of it looking in on somebody else experiencing the pain of it essentially, and it does work, and you really have to kind of pull yourself back and out from that. It is totally mental though. I could probably do this in the mile challenge right now, but mentally, I’m not ready for it because I’m probably about 70% ready for it physically. That other 30% would be mental. I want to get closer to the point where I’m closer to a hundred percent physically ready for it, so I’m within reach mentally of it, if that makes sense.

Steven Sashen:

Do you think it does? I mean, it’s sort of like I say on the track, no one’s ever set a world record in training. It’s the pressure of the competition, the adrenaline of the competition. It’s not like you’re going to be running a 13 second a hundred and suddenly run a 9.9, but if you’re running 10 low, there’s a decent chance that in the right conditions, you’re going to do nine high. So how much do you think about when you’re going to do it? What’s going to make you feel, I mean, there’s one way you feel ready because you’ve just done it 10 times. It’s like, no one’s watched but now I can do it. It’s easy. But there’s another where it’s like I’m close enough that in the right condition, I think I can do it and still be scared shitless, I imagine.

Nick Nielsen:

Oh, yeah. No, that’s the element of fear right there, and having it within reach, but knowing that you haven’t done it yet before and no one’s really done it yet before, it’s like that’s what’s kind of okay, now it’s time to put up or shut up. This is time everything has kind of come together. Now I’m going to do it. When I was telling you about that 315 squat for 40 reps, that’s kind of what I did, and that’s kind of what I’m basing the mental aspect of this on. When I trained for that, I wanted to develop that capacity. It was a Tom Platz’s program, if you can believe that, but if you’re not familiar with Tom Platz, he had legs the size of literal tree trunks and-

Steven Sashen:

No better. So Tom Platz was 5’2, 5’3 and his legs were, I mean, what was the measurement? Like 26, 27? No, no more than that. I mean, his legs were bigger than my waist.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, his legs were just enormous. So this was a program that he had done.

Steven Sashen:

God.

Nick Nielsen:

Right before I did this thing, I did a warm-up set of 225 for 50. That was a warm-up, and literally I just blew through that like it was a warm-up and then rested seven minutes, that was the rest period, was seven minutes, put 350 on the bar. It was at my university gym. I went and told my weight room monitor there. If I’m on the floor, hold off on calling an ambulance. Just come and see, check in with me first because I’m going to be on the floor at the end of this. So they were kind of keeping an eye on me as I’m doing this. And so I get the bar off there, a rack and everything is dialed in right now, and I didn’t have 40 as the goal. I had 20 as the goal.

I did 10 reps, felt like nothing. I got to 20, still actually felt pretty good. So I’m like, I’m going to see how much I can do. That’s when the whole different mindset really kicked in and the next 10 reps were tough. They were a grind. Once I hit 30 reps, I literally had an out-of-body experience where I didn’t have any perception of anything else around me except the rep count in my head, that’s it. It was the most zen thing I’ve ever experienced in my life. It’s literally 31, 32, and I was visualizing like flaming numbers in front of my face. Everything in my body is activated. And on that last rep, all I could think was just 40, 40, 40, 40. It was just like that one thing. There was no other existence except this number 40 that I had to finish. And then I racked the weight and I fell down, and I couldn’t get up for 10 minutes.

Steven Sashen:

I was going to say, did you rack it or just drop it? Holy mackerel. I mean, you and I talked about it, I’ve been doing some workouts lately where long time under tension, similar things. I mean just let’s do abs. So okay, you’re going to do V-sits or crunches. It doesn’t really make a difference and you’re going to do them for a minute to two minutes, and the first, let’s just do a minute. The first 30 seconds feels fine. Then the next 10 seconds, all right, this is hard. Then the 40 to 50 is like, okay, I really would like to stop and the last 10 seconds, if you can make them, you’ve slowed down by 50% and it’s just why am I doing this? And so yeah, it is wacky when you do push for time. And for me frankly, so 40 reps, I mean, what was your cadence? I’m guessing that was probably a good two minutes.

Nick Nielsen:

At least, yeah. The first 20 reps, literally, it was almost easy, almost easy, but those last 10 reps probably took as long as the first 20 reps I’m sure, and I’m sure the last rep probably took as long as previous three or four reps. It was literally, it was just like, and I’m not kidding when I say it was out of body. I remember the feeling, but I remember not having any perception of anything else around me other than just that number flaming in my face that I had to get. And yeah, it’s always taught me that you always have more left in you because I would’ve normally stopped at probably like 25 in a normal set, but I got another 15 reps out of that.

And I’m like, I’ve got nothing else to do after this. I’m not doing anything after this. I’m just going to do as much as I possibly humanly possible. I’m not going to let my mind say no. And I just pushed until literally my body actually physically gave out. And that’s something you don’t normally hit. So I know when I’m doing this long distance stuff, I know I’ve got that capacity there, but it’s just a question of is my mind ready to go there again? And sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. What was the recovery like after that?

Nick Nielsen:

So literally, I could not get up for 10 minutes. I was just laying on the floor. I couldn’t even raise my head. I was just laying on the floor just… The weight room monitor came over and she said, “Are you okay?” I just did a thumbs up with my arm on the ground, and there were other people around. They’re like, “Dude, what happened?” So yeah, literally, it took me 10 minutes to be able to function like a human being. And then the worst part of it was is that that gym was actually located in the basement of the university. You get where I’m going with this. There’s no elevator there. So it probably took me 10 minutes to climb that flight of stairs to get back out of the gym.

Steven Sashen:

The closest thing I have to that was over this past summer, we’re in Europe at our European office and we staying at a place. We were in Budapest actually, was staying at the top of a hill. It was the castle district for anyone who’s been there. And the closest gym I could find was at the bottom of the hill and it was, I’m trying to remember, it was something like a thousand steps to get to the gym. And the gym was in the basement and they had some great old school equipment.

I mean, it was a dingy, dirty basement gym from the turn of the century. It was delightful. But the guy I was working with, he put me through a workout that was the hardest workout I’d ever done. And then I had to walk back up the thousand steps and then Elaine and I went, we were sightseeing and we went up the tower of this church that was like 300 steps up and down. And by the next day I couldn’t walk. I don’t mean that figuratively. I mean the only way I could move, I couldn’t move my legs, I had to just swing my legs and kind back and forth.

Nick Nielsen:

Like a marionette.

Steven Sashen:

Like a marionette. It was bad. I’ve never had soreness like that in my entire life. And it occurred to me, this was probably when I was doing it, this is probably not a good idea, but I felt kind of okay.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, I can sympathize. I actually had one workout for calves where I got soreness before the workout was done.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, that’s not good.

Nick Nielsen:

It was really not good.

Steven Sashen:

I got to put this in context. The fact that you’re willing to enable and showing that you’re doing these things, it’s not, wait, let me say it differently. When we turn to people that we look to for advice or inspiration or help or whatever, on the one hand, we kind of want to emulate them. Now, on the other hand, sometimes it’s not possible. When you’re seeing a bunch of these bodybuilders who are just jacked up on every steroid known demand, you’re not going to be that. You can’t do that workout. You’re not going to look like that.

Doug McGuff did a great video saying, “I’ve done every workout known to man, and what I can tell you is, if you’re not taking steroids, they’re all the same. You’re going to hit your genetic potential and that’s it.” And you don’t know what that is. You might be someone who gets really big. You might might get really strong, you might not but regardless. But the point is that to have someone who is pushing beyond where you are in a way that even, I can’t imagine doing what you’re doing because it seems like so not fun to me. I don’t know where to begin, but there’s an element of it that is inspiring because I get it, I understand, and it’s not like it’s superhuman. It’s crazy human, but it’s not impossible obviously, because demonstrating that.

And so I guess what I’m saying is you’re doing these abnormal things in a way that feels normal-ish, that makes it inspiring and not disappointing, depressing like I could never be that, do that, et cetera. You’re not actually even doing it to say, you should be like me. And that’s one of the things that I appreciate about what you do is just how accessible it is, even when it’s something that there’s no way I’m going to be able to do anything remotely like that.

I guess part of it’s you’re showing things that work for the gamut of people’s skill, ability, and interest. As a sprinter who’s all fast twitch and does not have that kind of endurance component, I like watching it, watching a basketball game or a car wreck, but I know I’m not going to do it, but then I know the next day you’re going to have something and where I’m going to go, I can go do that, and it is hard to describe, but seeing that thing that there’s no way I could do followed by the thing that I can do makes the thing that I can do seem even more doable.

Nick Nielsen:

Honestly. I do that on purpose. I literally do that on purpose. I consciously do that when I’m putting out some of this crazy stuff. It’s like, okay, this is crazy, but I’m doing it. And I’m sure there are other advanced people who could do it, but the next time it’s like, okay, now here’s something that literally anybody can do. It’s like, here’s a variation of a dumbbell curl that you can maybe shift your hand over to one side so that you have more space on this side, so you get some additional resistance on the supination. Anybody can do that. You don’t have to be advanced. You can be a total beginner. And so I actually do post this crazy advanced stuff because some people may be able to do that or be inspired by it, and some people are like, that’s nuts. It’s a car accident. But literally the next time it’s like, okay, here’s now something that you could do. Total beginner. Oh, that’s interesting. I’ll set my feet like this when I do curls, and that’ll feel better on my lower back.

Steven Sashen:

Well, wait. I want to highlight the one that you said just before that. So if anybody does have a set of dumbbells at home, try this here. You’ll feel the subtle difference between the way you think you should do something and the way Nick has identified how to do something where it’s better, where if take dumbbells and you’re going to do a curl and just imagine you’ve curled, and so they’re all the way up. So you’ve done the full curl, and typically you’ve got your hands in the middle of the bar part of your dumbbell, and so instead shift your hand. So it’s as far out as it can go. So you have more, there’s just more dumbbell on the inside than the outside.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, so on your thumb side is right up against the plates.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Thumb side is right up against the plate or against the whatever, the hex or whatever it is, and then do the curl from there because it’s putting some torque where it’s making you have to turn your wrist. If you have your wrist facing your face, turn it so your pinky is getting closer to your face, that supination and that supination just turning your wrist that way, turning your forearm that way activates your bicep more. And so putting your thumb against the weight that way makes it harder to do that and puts more strain on the bicep in a place where it’s actually really functional. And so it’s a simple, simple little thing that you will feel the difference.

Nick Nielsen:

Yeah, immediately and literally anybody can do it and feel the difference.

Steven Sashen:

Exactly. Exactly. So we could do this all day long. This has been a total blast. Do me a favor, Nick, for people who want to find out more about the kind of stuff you’re doing and the broad collection of things that you’re doing, where should they go? And if you were going to recommend where someone might start, if they’re a total novice, if they’re an intermediate lifter or athlete, or if they’re advanced, what would you recommend in those cases?

Nick Nielsen:

Sure. My more beginner to intermediate website is fitstep.com. F-I-T-S-T-E-P.com. More of my intermediate to advanced stuff is on madscientistofmuscle.com, the stuff we talked about with the physiological adaptations, returntoprime.net That’s my latest book, which covers in depth all this stuff about fighting, aging with your muscle and strength essentially, and literally turning the clock back 20 years on what your body is capable of doing. And that stuff works. I mean, I’m actually 51 years old and I’m carrying 7, 800, 900 pounds around in my basement. So this stuff works and I’ve been doing it for a long time. But it’s something like you were saying too, it’s reachable. Just different level of resistance is everybody’s at a different level of resistance. So you just do these things to your level and that’s the difference, but those are the primary places that you’ll find me. I have links to social media on there as well, so you can follow me via those links as well.

Steven Sashen:

Awesome. Well, Nick, it’s been a total, total pleasure. For everyone else, I hope you do go take a look at Nick’s stuff. There’s a bunch of it if you just opt in so you can watch what he’s doing on Facebook or Instagram, et cetera, that’s going to give you a lot of motivation and a lot of ideas. The new book is incredible. It’s just this compilation of like you mentioned, the things that we talked about, but in much more depth and with some of the other principles we talked about as well. And you’ll see how to apply them, and it’s the kind of thing that makes you go, all right, I got to give this a whirl. So I hope you do and let both of us know what the experience is. And in general, just as a reminder, thanks for being here. Head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com.

There’s nothing you need to do to join. It’s just the fun URL I got. But again, you’ll find previous episodes, all the ways you can find us on social media, spread the words so that people become part of this movement about natural movement. If you have any questions or comments or complaints, if you want to tell me that I’ve got a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, if there’s someone you want to recommend that I should talk to, have them on the podcast, drop me an email, just send it to move, M-O-V-E, @jointhemovementmovement.com and I will get it and I will reply. And until then, just go out, have fun, and live life for you first.

The Longevity Power of Sensory Stimulation

marketdomination — Wed, 13 Nov 2024 00:00:16 +0000

Dr. Emily Splichal, functional podiatrist and human movement specialist, is the mind behind Naboso. With a spirit to challenge conformity, Dr. Splichal has taken her conventional Podiatric Medical degree and combined it with years of experience and expertise in human movement and sensory science to found Naboso.

Dr. Splichal believes that our experience in this world is built around sensory stimulation and our ability to process, perceive, and integrate this information effectively. Since 2012, Dr. Splichal has been traveling the world to share her unique approach to human movement, foot function, and barefoot science. Having taught in 35 countries and to over 25,000 professionals, Dr. Splichal has quickly become a sought out leader in barefoot training and rehabilitation.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Dr. Emily Splichal about the longevity power of sensory stimulation.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How natural movement and foot strength directly correlate with longevity and overall health.

– Why being hyper-aware of one’s body in space and providing necessary feedback through movement is crucial.

– How sensory insoles and mats with textured surfaces have yielded positive results, especially for individuals with neurological conditions.

– Why barefoot training on textured surfaces can enhance foot strength and overall health.

– How Naboso Technology uses tiny pyramids on insoles and mats to stimulate nerves and enhance sensory perception.

Connect with Dr. Emily Splichal:

Guest Contact Info

Instagram: @naboso_technology @thefunctionalfootdoc

Facebook: facebook.com/nabosotechnology facebook.com/dremilysplichaldpm

Links Mentioned: https://www.naboso.com/

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

It’s amazing. We go to the gym or we go to the doctor or we go to the wherever to improve our bodies, and we pretty much focus on everything from the ankles up, not paying attention to what’s from the ankles down, which is the stuff that supports everything from the ankles up. Well, we’re going to be chatting about some latest evolutions and things you can do from the ankles down with a dear friend of ours, Dr. Emily Splichal.

But first, just a reminder, hey, welcome to The MOVEMENT Movement podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first, those things at the end of your legs. We break down the propaganda, the mythology, and sometimes the flat-out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or play or do yoga or CrossFit, whatever you like to do, and do those things enjoyably and efficiently and effectively. Did I say enjoyably? Trick question. Of course I did, because that’s the most important one. If you’re not having fun, you’re not going to keep doing whatever it is anyway, so make sure you’re having a good time. I am Steven Sashen from xeroshoes.com. I’m the co-founder and Chief Barefoot Officer over here. You try it.

We call this The MOVEMENT Movement podcast because we’re creating a movement about natural movement. The way we are creating this, that includes you, is really simple. Go to our website, www.jointhemovementmovement.com, find the previous episodes, find the places you can find us on social media. Give us a good review, thumbs ups, like, five stars, whatever it is, and spread the word. Basically, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. It’s really simple. Now let’s have some fun. Hey, Dr. Emily Splichal. How the hell are you?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I am doing amazing. That was quite the intro.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah, I do what I can. After like 300 of these, it’s kind of a — Look, I can barely remember my middle name, but I can do that thing, not perfectly, obviously, but good enough to get from the beginning to the end without having to take a break.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I love it. I love it. That’s how I am when I talk about the nerves in the bottom of the feet. I literally get into a recording of a speech that I’ve given many times.

Steven Sashen:

So in just a matter of 30 seconds, we just told everyone we’re a bunch of geeks.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

And we’re proud of it.

Steven Sashen:

I just don’t argue. It’s just not worth the effort. It’s as simple as that. Where do human beings find you right now, or more accurately, where are you right now and human beings don’t know where that is or whatever I’m trying to say?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I’m currently sitting in Chandler, Arizona, in the Naboso office trying to get ready for the end of the year, wrapping up, hitting some of those key revenue goals, but also planning some big things for 2025, which is my favorite. I love designing products. That’s really where my head is at right now.

Steven Sashen:

And that is why we’re here. Do me a favor. Back up a half a step and tell people who the hell you are, what you do, and how you got to the point where we’re going to be talking about these products. FYI, for people who don’t know, I never let anyone on this podcast to talk about a product if I don’t think it’s for real. I’m going to tell the story about how we first had that fun interaction. But tell people who the hell you are if they don’t know.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes, Dr. Emily, functional podiatrist, so not just a podiatrist, but functional podiatrist, human movement specialist. I’ve been traveling the world educating about feet, barefoot science for the last 12 years.

Steven Sashen:

Wow.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Then I’m the CEO and founder of Nobosa, which is a sensory-based product line, Xero Shoes proudly resells, and we partnered on some products with Nobosa, which I’m absolutely very honored by. Then I’m an author of a book called Barefoot Strong. I’m writing my next book, and I have to talk about it so that it actually happens. But I have a book that is almost done, and we’ll be launching that soon. Jesus, that takes a long time. But, yeah, I’m everything about spreading the message. My focus, as much as it is feet, is actually movement longevity. As much as people initially think movement longevity means that you want to move well when you’re 100, I actually believe that to live to be 100 or plus you have to move. So I’m an advocate of movement, which I know you are.

Steven Sashen:

What? Look at my face. Well, look, there’s research. These are not just opinions. One of the things that gets on my nerves is people will say things to me like, “Well, you believe?” I go, “No, no, I don’t believe any of this stuff. This is a fact.” There’s research behind it, and there are now hundreds of thousands of people who have… Well, there’s actually millions of people, but just from Xero Shoes alone, we have hundreds of thousands of people who said, “Here’s what happened to me once I started moving better.” But to your point about if you want to live to fill in the blank, you need to be able to move, there are a couple very interesting bits of research about that.

One, and feel free to jump in on this, but here we go. One is there’s a direct correlation between trip-and-fall accidents, which is a very high cause of death in people, including my dad nine years ago, and foot strength. If you don’t have foot strength, then that impairs everything and makes you highly likely, not highly likely, more likely to have a trip-and-fall accident where you could break your hip and die not too long after. That’s number one.

Number two, this one’s even more interesting to me. I met a woman, she was a nurse at Duke University, who started doing this research that shows that if your natural walking gate, your walking speed is under a certain number, and sorry, I don’t remember the number off the top of my head, your likelihood of dying over the next five years has increased by 70% or 80%. Now, interestingly, of course, if you’re walking really slow, it’s mostly because your feet aren’t doing their job. They’re not strong enough to support you. They’re not getting the feedback they need. They’re not creating the stimulation your brain needs, all the things that we’re going to talk about.

So when you say something like longevity requires movement, you’re not just pulling that out of your butt. This is not just a belief. This is demonstrated, and there’s research coming out happily starting in January about this. Now that we’ve been doing this whole barefooty thing, well, we’ve been doing it 15 years, more and more people are doing more and more research to back up what we all knew anecdotally, just to demonstrate that, no, this is for real. Anyway, I just wanted to throw in these are not things that we just think and we’re trying to convince people of. This is stuff that we know is real and we’re trying to wake people up to.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Sometimes it is looking at a research study and applying it into a real world way. That’s why I think people like you and what I do and in this space of consumers, in a sense, or the real world is taking what’s happening in a lab, and then they just publish things, and that’s cool. But they don’t know how to actually word it or spin it or package it to be real world so that everyone who’s listening can actually understand and use the powerful data that was demonstrated through a research study. That’s why I like what you’re doing here is to then help people be like, “Okay, I get it. Now I understand walking speed, but when I read it in the research article, I don’t get that. How am I supposed to?

Steven Sashen:

Let’s be clear. No one’s finding these articles on their own. It’s not the kind of thing that normal human beings are going to stumble upon unless they have insomnia and they just need some way of getting to sleep without medication.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

They’re not on Google Scholar all night reading research articles?

Steven Sashen:

You may be surprised to discover that the answer to that question is no. The average person doesn’t even know what you just referred to, nor do they know what PubMed is, nor do they know… I would say it’s actually the other way around. Because of what we all started doing 15 years ago-ish and the response that was created from that, or more accurately, what happened when people started using their feet in ways they hadn’t for ages or ever, that just piqued a lot of curiosity in the research community. The bad news is it’s not their job to market what they’ve done in a way that it gets to consumers. The worst news is that the big shoe companies will put out studies that are very badly designed.

My favorite… There’s two things lately. I don’t know if you’ve seen these that I keep seeing all the time in studies. One is a line like this one, “Despite the advances in footwear running shoe technology over the last 50 years, running-related injuries have not decreased in that time.” Now, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to go, “If injury rates have not decreased, then there haven’t really been advances.” That’s the first one.

The second one is we took some habitually shod, a word that no one outside of the barefoot shoe world uses, people don’t use the word shod, we’ve taken people who are habitually in regular shoes, let’s just call it what it is, and wanted to test that against barefoot. So we gave the people that we were going to have in the study some time to acclimate to running barefoot by having five minutes on a treadmill. It’s like, yeah, that’s not what it takes to acclimate. You wouldn’t say that you acclimated to a new shoe in five minutes on a treadmill. So there’s these horribly designed studies that people who are on the pro giant, big, thick shoe, padded motion and all-arch support whatever thing, they will try to use to combat anything that we say because people aren’t going to discover that the studies were really poorly designed and really poorly constructed.

One last one, and I’ll stop ranting on this. There’s a guy who used to work at the University of Colorado who did a study that was trying to prove that barefoot was bad for you. He said that he took 12 accomplished barefoot runners. Over the first and last beer we had together, and I think I made him pay for it, I said, “I know all the barefoot runners in town. I’m one of them. Neither I nor anyone that I know was in your study. I know who was in your study. They’re not accomplished barefoot runners. They’re accomplished runners who do a little bit of barefoot training on the grass at the end of their workout. That’s it. So your little study is not really telling anybody anything meaningful.” But here’s the kick. Nobody would know that unless they knew this guy and they were part of this community. Otherwise, when he says, “Accomplished barefoot runners,” why would you argue? He’s got a PhD and a blah blah, blah, and whatever else. Anyway, a little rant about problems with research.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Well, I’ve seen that with textured research because… Obviously, I’m not a minimal shoe company. I’m a sensory-based product line using texture. You see that same thing where then people will try to call bullshit on the power of texture, on foot awareness and reducing injuries and improving gait parameters, etc. But then when you actually look at the study, it’s the same thing. They’re in a pillow of a shoe with a textured insole, and then they’re saying, “Wow, texture does nothing,” and a thick sock, like a thick wool sock. I’m like, fine.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, no. Because people know that you can stack up a whole lot of mattresses, and if you put a pea under the bottom one, people can feel that. So the fact that there’s a whole bunch of cushioning and a sock and whatever, that doesn’t make a difference. We all know that. That’s irrelevant. But because you said textured and sensory, let’s just jump into that for a second. Naboso is a Czech word that means barefoot, and we’re going to get one step further down. How did you pick that word? You are not Czech.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

They think I’m Czech.

Steven Sashen:

Emily, that is cultural appropriation. That is Eastern European appropriation.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I know, I know. Really what it was is I was designing Naboso, and this is interesting on how these things work in life. So I was concepting out Naboso, working on our first product, couldn’t think of a company name. I wanted a word that was not English directly, but had something… Do I pick something in Swahili or something? I don’t know. So I paid this company $10,000 to try to come up with a name, I know, or my company in a way that it wouldn’t put a ceiling over my head because I had no idea what this was going to become.

Anyway, that’s happening. I go to Prague to teach a workshop through my education company. They’re all there, and they’re so excited because there’s a Czech American who’s coming to Prague. I’m like, “I’m not Czech.” But there was this huge conversation around that I’m Czech. They swear I’m Czech. Anyway, Dr. Janda, who was a Czech physiatrist, is someone who really influenced my career. So I had this… I was drawn to Czech.

I’m there. Someone who’s attending my workshop has a T-shirt on that says Naboso on it, and I’m drawn to that word. No idea why. I’m like, “What does that mean? What is that?” It’s a Barefoot Shoe store in Czech Republic. They now sell Naboso. Anyway, I was like, “Oh my God, that is so perfect.” So it is trademarked in the United States, even though it’s a common word in the Czech Republic because it’s a Czech word that means barefoot. Actually, it’s a Slavic word. We argued with the patent office, the Trademark Patent Office, that there’s such few Czech speakers in the United States that I could trademark the word Naboso. So there you go. That is how we chose it.

Steven Sashen:

But you still had to pay that 10 grand to the people who gave you nothing, right?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, but I just think it’s the irony of something that pushed me in the direction. I don’t even know.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, no, no, no. If it makes you feel any better, we spent more money with a marketing group when we started the company. When I started Xero Shoes, actually, I called it Invisible Shoes. I built a website. I needed a name. That’s what I came up with. We spent way more money than that at about two years in on a branding company. I’m going to show this on the camera, and then I’ll describe it for anyone who’s just listening, but I’m going to show you. This is the name that they came up with. Wait, there we go. Can you see?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Okay, yep.

Steven Sashen:

I’ll spell it for people who aren’t watching, X-O-I-C-S. What’s wrong with that word?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Xoics.

Steven Sashen:

I don’t know. Yeah, you’re doing the same thing. How do you say it? Is it Xoics? Is it Xoics? It was meaningless. They said, “Well, you could own this word.” I went, “No, no, no. People need to know how to say it and spell it. We’re going to have a website.” The next day I’m at track practice, I finished track practice, and I’m thinking, “I like that thing of starting with X, though. What can I do with that?” and I came up with Xero. So I have no problem that I paid them a stupid amount of money. Because without their bad idea, I wouldn’t have thought of a good idea.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, it’s very similar. That’s why I am very into the world. The world guides you in these ways that you’re supposed to. You know what I mean?

Steven Sashen:

Okay, eh, all right.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Whatever. I make stuff up to make me feel better.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that’s okay. Yeah, we can rationalize our way into pretty much anything. So, so, so. So that was part one in a way. Part two, I’m going to do it from my perspective, because why not, is that you reached out to me. We already knew each other, but you reached out to me and said, “Hey, I have developed this product. It does this thing about stimulating your feet and has all these benefits. I want to send it to you and see what you think.” I’m thinking, “Oh, crap. I have tried so many of these things. They never work.” How am I going to pat you on the head and go, “Thanks so much. You’re totally adorable. This is not going to happen”?

So you send me these insoles. I put them in my shoes. I walked around the office for about an hour. Then as I tend to do in the office, I kick off my shoes. I’m doing some work at the computer. About an hour later, I stand up to go probably to the bathroom, and my feet are grabbing the ground, and my calves were totally active, and I’m going, “What the hell is happening?” I called you and said, “All right, we need to talk.”

So let’s talk about that first product, and then we’re going to launch into everything that’s happened since then. For people who already are hip to what we’re going to talk about, feel free to skip ahead. But why bother? Because we’re entertaining. So talk about where this came from. Wait, I don’t remember if it happened before or after. I was at the International Foot and Ankle Biomechanics conference, and there was a company from Australia or a researcher in Australia presenting a paper that was about a similar product. I can’t remember if that was right before or right after you. But this has kind of been brewing in some little way, but you discovered it. Tell that story.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Remember I’d mentioned there’s some textured insole research study that we had referenced. I was reading those research studies when I was traveling around teaching about barefoot science. “Let’s get people out of shoes. Let’s get into minimal shoes, but we still need to do some barefoot work, too. Then go back into minimal shoes. So let’s be calculated on both sides.” Anyway, what I would start saying is, “Okay, once you get out of your shoes, or if you’re training minimal, then you need to start asking yourself, ‘Well, what surface are we going to train on?'” Nobody is talking about surfaces. Still no one is really talking about surfaces and the best surfaces for training, especially athletically and things like that.

So I got into texture. I was like, “I wonder if I could create a barefoot training surface that when people took their shoes off that we could get even more activation and function out of the foot when it was barefoot.” Then we came into texture. So the first product was a barefoot training mat, which is now one of our mats, even though it’s slightly different. Think of a yoga mat with tiny little pyramids across the entire surface designed to stimulate the feet when you’re doing, let’s say, kettlebells or squats or lunges or whatever.

Then people started using that and saying, “Well, that’s such a limited… It’s so niched out, and my exposure is only when I’m doing kettlebells or whatever. So what if I could get that into my shoe?” which led into the insole design. That made me a little bit nervous because you had the research over here, and then you have reality over here in the sense of they weren’t using textured insoles to do insole research study. They were making random stuff and cutting materials and flipping over things, putting sandpaper in shoes. They were using random materials. But I used that to then design our insoles, which is what I sent to you and you tested. But maybe it’s just me being a doctor and I’m always scared of being sued, that I was like, “Oh my gosh, what if I give it to someone? They get a blister, it gets infected, their leg is amputated.” I’m just thinking like a malpractice thing.

So getting into it, it was actually less textured than what we have now on our products because I didn’t know how the mass consumers were going to respond to this. They responded positively. Actually, people who started using them happened to have MS, happened to have Parkinson’s or a stroke or neuropathy. So we started getting demonstrations of this huge benefit of our products within the neurological and neural rehab space that I would’ve not thought of initially, even though there is some research data around it, so it led to that, which then led to, “Oh, what if I put it on a ball like this? What if I put it on…?”

Steven Sashen:

Pause there before the “what if” part because that’s where we move into the new world, but I want to back up a half a step. If you can describe a little more, so you said it’s this pyramidal thing that was on this mat, describe a little more about the actual technology so that people who have never seen it, experienced it who are already watching, so you can show it. But there are people-

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I’m going to show it now and then describe it.

Steven Sashen:

Go ahead. Go for it.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I’m holding up, this is our Kinesis Board.

Steven Sashen:

All I’m seeing is fuzz, because your camera has not figured out where… Okay, it’s-

Dr. Emily Splichal:

…lower it. There’s little tiny pyramids on it. Can you see the little tiny pyramids?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I can see them on the ball even better. So little tiny pyramids.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Little.

Steven Sashen:

How tiny for people who are just listening?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

One and a half millimeters.

Steven Sashen:

High?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Tall, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

One and a half millimeters high, and, again, pyramid, so four-sided pyramid.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yep. You have a pyramid that’s one and a half millimeters tall. Peak to peak, it’s two and a half millimeters.

Steven Sashen:

Got it. So spread out two and a half millimeters.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

They’re very close.

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yep, very, very close. So the entire insole, as an example, again, it’s from a distance, but the entire insole is covered in the little pyramids.

Steven Sashen:

So talk-

Dr. Emily Splichal:

The entire sock is covered by the tiny little pyramids.

Steven Sashen:

We haven’t gotten to the sock yet. Hold back on the sock, baby.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Sorry.

Steven Sashen:

So talk about a) how you came to that height, that spacing, etc., and what it’s actually doing.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

That shape, there is a research study that was done. There is a researcher out of Australia, her name is Hatton, H-A-T-T-O-N. Hatton, did research to look at a triangle versus more of a circle, more of an oval, so different shapes of deformation. That’s essentially what you’re doing is you are indenting the skin, which stimulates the nerve.

We happen to be stimulated in the same nerve that you stimulate when you read braille. So think of braille, go to the ATM or the next time you’re at the ATM, look at the little braille dots. They’re a certain distance or a certain height when you touch them. If you touch them and shut your eyes, your nerves are sensing the two points. That’s how you read braille.

So technically it is two-point discrimination. The pyramid will be more acute, small, finite, more acute deformation to the skin. What we also found out then is that the point of the pyramid will actually go deeper into the dermis, which is where your circulation is. So on the foot, when people use any of our products, they get little indents that stay there for a little bit. We consider that the Naboso effect, which means you essentially touch it and you’re like, “Oh, I have all these little indents on my finger, on my foot.” That is showing that that point went into the dermis.

Steven Sashen:

Got it. So-

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Then-

Steven Sashen:

Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I was just going to say, then when you stimulate these specific nerves, these are called mechanoceptors, you stimulate, as part of your peripheral nervous system, not to get too complicated, but stimulate your brain, which is called the somatosensory cortex. The somatosensory cortex is your brain map to essentially shape your body in space. The brain map, which creates a homunculus, you can Google the word homunculus, you will see this person with really big hands and really big feet. Anyway, it’s a funny looking person.

The most sensory, sensitive parts of the human body take up the largest area in the brain to shape how your brain sees your body in space. What I tell people is that I can only control my body as accurately as I know where the hell it is. How do I control my body or not fall or not trip over something if I don’t know where my foot is in relation to the curb or where my hip is in relation to the table I just bumped into or whatever. So that is perception. Perception is a sensory process. Touch, which is what Naboso stimulates as touch, is one of those inputs that helps your brain see itself in space.

Steven Sashen:

Perfect. Now, I think there’s one other fun part to add to this, and once I’m done clearing my throat, there’s a great book called The Brain That Changes Itself. It’s features mostly a guy named Dr. Michael Merzenich, who talks about how, if you don’t give your brain the stimulation it’s wired to get, it’s meant to get, it will literally change its shape and essentially shut down, because why waste energy if I’m not getting the information that I need? The example I like to give is if you taped your first two fingers together and left them like that for a while, your brain would literally change its shape and so that if you remove the tape, you would still act as if you only had one finger. They would move, come together, not independently, and they would feel like you really only had one weird finger. But, happily, if you then stimulate them properly, then your brain will change back and it will re-differentiate and start functioning naturally.

So people have been in a… My favorite thing to say is, “Given that you have more nerve trainings the sole of your feet than pretty much anywhere but your fingertips and lips, how much can you feel? How much feedback are you giving your brain through the shoe that you’re wearing if it has a big thick sole?” They go, “Huh? None or very little.” I said, “You know that if you stepped on a grain of sand, you could feel that normally. You’re wired to feel that, and you’re not getting that information. So what’s that doing to your brain?”

So what we’re talking about is whether people are already hanging out barefoot and walking over all over the place, or if they’re in shoes and they haven’t been doing that, is getting the brain to work properly by letting the body to give it the signals that it needs properly. This has, as we’ve seen, dramatic effects. So for the fun of it… Wait, do you want to say anything about that before we jump into how things have evolved from matte to insole to all the other things that you’re using? Because this is where things get interesting to me. Is there anything else we want to fill in about the why about this?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. If I go in a direction that you didn’t think I was going to go, I apologize. Now we have our Neuro Ball, which is a release tool. We have a Neuro Stick. So we have these recovery tools that you could put texture on to, again, wake up the nerves but also stimulate circulation. So it’s another benefit of what we advocate. Then we have our rehab category, you could say, which has our Kinesis Board, which is like a single-leg platform. We have our Sensory Sticks that are weighted. We have some Pilates equipment. We have our mats. We essentially radiate out.

Then we have our socks, which honestly is one of my proudest in the sense of my legacy I really want to be the socks and have them in hospitals where there’s a stroke rehab center or something like that where you’re thinking, this person just had a brain injury. I need to access that brain through the gateway, which I consider the bottom of the foot, the gateway into the brain is I need to be bringing neurosensory feedback from that access point because it’s so critical to movement, which we just said is critical to longevity. So that would be something that I would envision from it.

Now, what I will say real quick, and then we can divert into any direction. We got our utility patent, and our patent was granted after quite a few years of defending it and making a case that it is a unique, innovative patent to bull pattern that is helping people in a very specific way. I spent a lot of money to get that. We got our utility patent. So what I try to think about is, what can I design to continue to demonstrate the power of texture but the power of sensory stimulation on human movement and longevity?

So any product ideation really, I do that and I look at… We have the hands, so we actually have some different hand tools. We’re launching one in a couple week, a hand kit. How do I continue to push that category? Because that category is ultimately my legacy, just like your legacy is that the minimal footwear category is beyond you. It is forever a category in the footwear space. It is not a trend. Texture is not a trend. To be barefoot and access your feet is not a trend. This is like talking about breathing and saying breathing is a trend. That’s not. That’s not a trend.

Steven Sashen:

Although there are all these people who teach various breathing methods, and they would argue that what they’re doing is real and they’re creating a trend. Anyway, yeah, everyone’s going to try and carve out a thing. Yes, our goal, and I like that you said it that way, because for me… My wife asked me a while ago, “What’s different about Xero Shoes than the other companies that I’ve started and the other products that I created?” Literally, some of my previous companies/products changed certain aspects of the world. I invented some software that changed film and television writing forever. But she’s, “What’s different here?” I said, “This one’s way bigger than me.” That was my little community, and that was a fun thing to do. It was important, and it was a big deal. But this is much, much bigger. Because that was just like helping people do their job better, being a little more creative. This is literally improving people’s lives in a way that is so profound that it has to transcend me because I’m not the important person here. What we’re doing is the important thing.

Anyway, what’s interesting is the people who are in this world, you, me and our friends who are also in it, we all feel the same way. And that’s really interesting. It’s really unusual. Contrast that to the people that we’re kind of fighting against who they would claim that that’s what they really want to do, but they have no evidence they’re actually doing it. In fact, they have evidence to the contrary. Their number one goal is clearly, “How do we make money out of this? Not, “How do we help people?” Anyway, that’s a whole other whatever.

In your goal, I like that it has expanded beyond let’s just do foot stimulation to all these other things about stimulation and the value there. That sounds like where we’re making the transition to talk about these other things and what they do, who they do it for, and what things people could expect when they start exploring this whole realm of providing stimulation that they probably haven’t gotten that frankly in other parts of the world and other times were more natural, and now we’re just doing… We’re faking natural, which is a fine thing to do. I’m not trying to say that derogatorily. But if we’re not going to have it naturally, sure, we go do it. If we’re not going to build a house by carrying rocks from the river to where we’re doing it, we go to the gym. That’s cool. With that wacky little preface, please back to you for the win.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. My evolution through Naboso and just my career is I’m uniquely fascinated with sensory stimulation. That is well established. Foot as a gateway into the nervous system, that is clear being a functional podiatrist. But really where it starts to expand in the evolution of how this could make a bigger impact is I think looking at a broader category of just what is neurosensory stimulation.

I’m uniquely intrigued by resistance, like weight, weighted vests, weighted apparel. It helps people to feel their body in space. Compression, so compression sleeves, compression apparel, what is that doing to the proprioceptors? What we have found with our Sensory Sticks, which are two pounds each, is they have the texture but then the weight. If you hold them on one side, both sides, you shut your eyes and you kind of focus on how you feel, see your body, when you have a light resistance pulling on your joint capsules and all the proprioceptors of your fascia, it wakes up the brain in a different way. So that’s very unique. I said compression. Vibration is another one. I’ve been using whole body vibration for years. I absolutely love it. I’ve worked with whole body vibration companies before, but trying to bring that in and having a different type of utility of it. Then how can we combine these sensory stimuli to achieve something greater?

My heart will always go towards neuro-rehab and helping people who have had stroke, Parkinson’s, concussions and to go back to the basics of you have to be able to perceive your body. I need you to shut your eyes and see your body as it’s moving in space and have accuracy as you’re doing that. A lot of people are sensorily disconnected. I think technology is making us sensorily disconnected. People are emotionally disconnected. It’s about how to try to get back in touch with your physical body. They don’t have physical education the same anymore. People just aren’t moving the same way.

Movement is how we reestablish or how we established, when we were born, this perception of ourself, this perception of your brain. I often say that sensory and perception feeds mood, memory, and movement, and they’re very deeply incorporated. It’s your emotional regulation, your cognitive performance, so that’s the memory, and then your movement movement, movement accuracy, movement efficiency. Those are very interwoven. One is reliant on the other. One calibrates the other. Then I truly believe that sensory is really the roots of those three. And that’s my next book.

Steven Sashen:

Well done. It’s interesting, I think about people’s, in general, poor proprioceptive skill. I think back to when I was a young gymnast when we just were starting, and the compulsory floor exercise routine had two parts where you had to put your arms parallel to the ground. It took us weeks to learn what parallel was. Because when you put your arms parallel to the ground, it doesn’t look parallel. It looks like you’re pointing down. What people think is parallel is actually above horizontal.

Or when I had someone email me and say, “There’s something wrong with the rubber you’re using on your shoes because look how much I wore out the heel.” I said, “Oh, well, that means you’re over-striding and heel striking.” The guy said, “I don’t do that.” I said, “Send me a video.” So he sends me a video. I had to show him the video frame by frame, drawing lines with a protractor showing that he was landing with his foot way out in front of his body with his ankle way out in front of his knee. It took literally 20 minutes till he went, “Oh, yeah. Okay, I see that.” His next line, I swear to God, was, “Yeah, but I don’t do that.” I said, “Dude, this is a video of you that you sent to me.”

The point is simply that we aren’t… I think in general the default mode is not being hyper-aware of where our body is in space. I’m marvel at the fact… My wife and I got a dog. It’s our first dog ever. We got him two and a half years ago, a little over two and a half years ago. When I take him for a walk, it blows my mind how he doesn’t step on things that he’s not looking at. He’s just very aware of where every limb is, except when he tries to climb the stairs and it’s dark at night, and then it’s pretty entertaining.

But by and large, it blows my mind how aware of every part of his body he is 99% of the time in ways that most of us are stubbing our toe on something or dropping something because we grabbed it wrong, or watching the soon-to-be president again try to grab the door handle of a garbage truck. We really aren’t that good. To get better, to your point, requires some kind of feedback, and the stimulatory stuff that you’re doing is the easiest thing to do, frankly, because anything you would do in the wild is going to be pretty unusual, and I can’t even imagine what many of those things would be. Your video comes in and out again a bit. But happily, when your video freezes, you have not done it yet with some really insane expression on your face, so you can be happy about that.

Anyway, all that said, I love the way you framed that mostly because, like you said, physical education is disappearing from the elementary school system. We don’t have a built-in method of getting people to get that kind of stimulation, to have their brain aware of what their body is doing, to learn new movement patterns, etc. So what you’re providing is, again, I would argue, one of the simplest ways of doing that kind of faking natural in a way that’s demonstrably beneficial.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah. It’s also something that most people are not thinking about, so I’m just trying to-

Steven Sashen:

Why would you?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Exactly, until someone falls. Like what you had said about trip and falls being a leading cause of morbidity or mortality, one of my best friends from New York, her father-in-law, this is last week, 81, so he is a little bit older, but in his kitchen, stepped on a sponge that was on the floor, something fell, hit his head on the kitchen table, and then he must have fallen back and hit it again. He passed away. They were watching a movie on a Friday night, and he was just like, “Oh, let me go grab some more popcorn.”

It gives me goosebumps to think about that, that now that family and his children are going through that where it’s just like… It was something that he, and many people, take for granted, just the simplicity of moving around the home. It’s like, no, no, we need to have spatial awareness. We have to have foot-ground awareness. It’s just the whole thing and that should not be happening.

Steven Sashen:

There are a number of things that fit into this. Strength is an important one as well. Having some facility with movement. I spent so much time as a gymnast and then doing martial arts where I don’t typically worry about falling because I’m pretty good at not landing in weird-ass ways. Granted, I’ve gone down pretty bad on the ice when the dog sees a squirrel and yanks me, and whoops. But even then, not so bad.

Again, the part that people are not paying attention to, I wanted to say aware of, which is kind of a bit of a pun in a way, is the sensory component because it’s just not something that we pay attention to, it’s funny, I just had this thought, unless you’re in a situation where there’s just something that’s bothering you. The thought that cracked me up is I’m always hypersensitive to labels in my shirts. Or when I was a kid and I had to wear a suit, I would wear my pajamas under the suit even if it was 90 degrees out because the seams were a little itchy. That’s my thing. So this is something that’s near and dear to my heart. But that’s just because I got some sort of brain deformity, I mean, bottom line.

Again, bringing this to people’s awareness, pun intended, is so important. So let’s go down the list again of the various things that you now have where people can start exploring this and finding the benefits thereof.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

We still have our mats, so the Naboso Mats. Picture a yoga mat size that is covered in these tiny little pyramids. Some people, we use them when they do yoga or workout. We have a Standing Mat, which is a two-foot by two-foot version. A lot of people will put that in their kitchen, next to their bed and their bathroom. So you could use it as really just a house mat in any sense. So that’s one.

We still have our insoles. We have our flat insoles, so three different versions that are totally flat. They’re purely a sensory insole, very thin. They’re available on the Xero Shoes website. Then we did launch one that has an arch in it, so this is a little contrary to… Don’t stop breathing, Steven. This is a little contrary with the arch. Now, the reason is that certain people, there are certain people in the world who need an arch support because they have ligament laxity. I just wanted to access all people on that. So we have that one. Or if someone is doing it because they’re standing on their feet all day like a nurse, and they’re just like, “Bleh!” I am defying physiology. How I use them is I have them in my slippers. So when I wake up in the morning, literally every aspect of my foot skin is touching something because I have a higher arch, so it’s actually touching the inside of the arch as well.

Steven Sashen:

Well, to pause on that one, once you said you built something in with an arch, that was the first thought I had is, if you do have a higher arch, to give you that additional stimulation is a great thing. The fact that it’s not super rigid is what makes it cool, even if you don’t have a super high arch. My thing about arch support is simply that if it’s too rigid and it isn’t letting the, we’re not going to get technical, the bones in that arch function properly, then anything that doesn’t let joints move makes things weaker. It makes the tissue around it weaker. We’re just trying to avoid that. But for people who do want that extra stimulation who do have a higher arch, perfect solution.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Steven, I’ll send you these, so can try them in your slippers.

Steven Sashen:

Hey thanks. Oh, that’s so cute you think I wear slippers.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I know, right?

Steven Sashen:

Hold on. Are they fuzzy, or are they Hugh Hefner slippers?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh, well, yeah, you want the smoking, smoker ones, what they call them?

Steven Sashen:

I’m just thinking, if I was going to buy a pair of slippers ever in my life, what would they be? I would go for something with bunny ears probably.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh my gosh, so cute. All right, that’s your Christmas gift. Then outside the insoles, we have different socks. These are also available on xeroshoes.com. We have a traditional sock. We have a toe sock shape. We have with grip, without grip, so those are an incredible way to get that texture. Those are an awesome form of recovery. I wear those at night. We have our balance board, which is our Kinesis Board. We have the Neuro Ball, we have the Neuro Stick, we have toe spacers in several colors, Sensory Stick. So that would be really the main product line. Then we are launching a hand activation kit this November just to wake up the hands.

Steven Sashen:

Say more about that. That’s an interesting place to go since we typically think our hands are pretty sensitive.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

We actually have 20,000 nerves, mechanoceptors, in our hands, and this is mechanoceptors, and about a thousand or so in our feet. Meaning, there is a large difference in the sensitivity of our feet versus our hands, which makes sense because of fine motor skill, etc. But here, same thing, hands, you’re texting, swiping, whatever you’re doing. We need to focus on the hands. A lot of people will use our Neuro Ball, or they’ll use our Sensory Sticks, which are weighted. They’re for the hand. But we have our hand activation kit. I happen to have one right here.

In it, this is using a different material. It is actually compressible because there’s air in it. So you can squeeze them and compress them, so you’re actually strengthening the hand muscles, but you have the texture which is going to wake up the nerves. Also, what we have found, this is just from our own consumers demonstrating to us, we are very big in certain sports in certain countries such as baseball. We are very well known in the Asian countries. They’re very embracing to barefoot obviously, because it’s part of their culture. So a lot of the sports in Asia, baseball, basketball, etc., very much love Naboso for their hand. So we want to actually push a little bit into it.

Also, because we work so much with stroke, spinal cord injury, Parkinson’s, you start to get into hand rehab, hand OT, and we want to bring in that sensory stimulation. We also have a lot of people on the neurodivergent spectrum, wherever you are on that, and people actually finding that our products really calm the nervous system, and they’re used in certain schools.

Steven Sashen:

I think something different. I think same idea, slightly different. We have a bunch of parents who have kids with ADD, ADHD, and autism who say, “Our kids only want to wear your shoes, and they’re seemingly functionally better with them.” My contention is that the stimulation is acting the same way Ritalin works. It’s a mild stimulant, which, for people who are hypersensitive in that way, feels is calming.

My joke, when people ask me about various things that I’ve done, I joke that everything I’ve done in life is because they hadn’t invented Ritalin when I was a kid. Ritalin is a stimulant. When I was living in New York City, I noticed I could meditate better on a subway than in my apartment. Because on the subway, the noise was just loud enough to be louder than my thinking, or just about as loud as my thinking. So everything was feeling kind of calm with that not insignificant amount of noise.

So my contention for those people is that the calming thing is the effect of… Wait, this is going to sound weird. I have tinnitus or for other people, tinnitus, depending on who you are, so I’ve ringing in my ears. The theory about why that occurs for many people is that, for whatever reason, your ears are not transmitting high-frequency sounds. So your brain is recreating what it doesn’t get. My suspicion, and I’m making this up on the fly frankly, so I could be completely cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, but my suspicion is that for people who are ADD, ADHD, etc., that stimulation is providing something that was missing and the brain was being hyper-responsive and hyperactive to fill in the blanks. Once the blanks are filled in, it can chill out. That’s my current theory.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Can I add on to that?

Steven Sashen:

Sure.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I spent a lot of time thinking about this. All I do is think about sensory stimulation. When we picture someone, let’s just, ADD, autistic, all of that, so they are a little bit more hyperactive. Let’s say if I’m moving in a certain way, this is even me moving. Let’s say I’m a kid in school and I’m kind of doing this. Every time I do this, I’m actually stimulating the joint’s capsule, which has proprioceptors. That’s essentially what fidget toys do is you are stimulating mechanoceptors and proprioceptors from doing something, which is what you were saying-

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

… is that they don’t know a way to get it without… “I’m doing it, right?”

Steven Sashen:

Tapping yourself, rocking, yeah.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, I’m rocking, I’m doing something. That’s why compression works really well. That’s why I love compression. Weight, so wrist weights are used for children who have this, using texture, using minimal. It’s not in the sense of it’s stimulating like a Ritalin kind of thing. The way that I want people to think of it is this goes back to your perception of self and your need to feel safe. So when I feel myself in space, maybe I got a little compression on or a little bit of weight or something, I feel where I am. I’m grounded or anchored in this space in the world, so I feel, quote/unquote, safe.

By doing that with someone who’s, let’s say, hypervigilant in a sense, and they’re kind of up here, you give them minimal shoes, feel their feet. They have compression on. They have the Naboso insoles, whatever it is. Then they recalibrate to the perception of self. They feel safe, and now they can learn. Now they hear what the teacher is saying. So that’s how I approach it when I work with OTs and stuff like that within that space. It’s very calming. Especially when you’re talking to a parent, there’s a lot of sensitivity around it. But time and time again, these children, when you give them minimal shoes, weighted products, texture, vibration, they can actually hear, listen, etc.

Steven Sashen:

Have you ever had an experience where someone describes some condition and you recognize yourself in that and you go, “Oh my God, I didn’t know I was one of those”? I just had that, and this is going to sound silly. Well, anyway, I know myself, but I never thought about some of these things personally because they’re just part of my… They just seem like something normal to me and abnormal to other people.

The example that I thought of that made me crack up and go, “Oh my God, what a moron. I haven’t realized this is who I am.” I used to get together five times a year with this group of about 14 of us. We were just trying to see what we could do to change our lives. The first instruction was always, “If there’s anything anyone needs to say or do to feel that they are present and grounded and whatever, just ready to do what we’re going to do for the next five days, just say it, do it, ask for it, whatever it is.” My thing was always, “I’m going to lie on the ground and as many of you as possible pile on.” I found that so unbelievably comforting.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Huh?

Steven Sashen:

Some people wouldn’t do it because they were afraid or it had some other effect for them. Like, “Maybe I’m going to hurt someone.” I just put two and two together in a funny way. I’m super, super sensitive to how comforting it is to have pressure of various kinds and sensations of various kinds and hypersensitive to some.

I also just put two and two together, perhaps, I don’t know which came first, this is a chicken and egg thing, but I was a six-week preemie. I was in an incubator for four and a half weeks where, at that time, the basic treatment protocol was, “Don’t touch them. They’re fragile. Don’t touch them.”

I’ll tell you this story, an ex-girlfriend of mine, we were watching TV. It was some documentary about babies, and so it talked about preemies and how the treatment protocol changed from leave them alone to give them a lot of stimulation. Because when you give them a lot of stimulation, they grow more, they become bigger and taller, and they become smarter, etc., and then it cuts to commercial. There’s a long silence while I’m thinking about my version of that and how that was for me. My ex turns and says, “Oh, thank God they didn’t touch you.” My response was, “Yeah, I would probably be intolerable.” I’m pretty intolerable now too, but that would’ve put me over the edge.

The reason that I bring up all these things, the personal version of these is I’m realizing, and I’m hoping that it’s being transmitted in some wacky-ass way, the importance of what we’re talking about in a way that people don’t have… There’s not even a language for some of this. There’s not a context for some of this. I do hope, the same as you, that this becomes normalized and something that just seems an obvious thing to do the way that… I can’t think of what else I would think of it would be. It’s like, oh, yeah, you should eat well, lift weights, whatever it could be. Go out and get some aerobic exercise. This should be part of just a every day health protocol that we don’t even think of as a health protocol. It just makes sense as a thing that we do as human beings who are living in this world.

Yeah, holy crap.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I am hoping, like you said, that the listeners will identify or possibly understand certain aspects of themselves that maybe they could never put words to it. Then they’re hearing this and saying, “Oh, okay, that sounds kind of like me.” I absolutely love weighted blankets. I need weight on me for me to sleep well. In hotels, if they do not have anything heavy, I will put my clothes on me to weigh it down. It sounds crazy.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, I get it.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

When I speak, especially in the beginning of my career because I would be a little bit more in my head when I would do public speaking, is I would have to take my shoes off, and it was my anchor. If I had my shoes on, I was like, “I cannot think. There’s no way I can give a lecture or presentation with my shoes on because it’s blocking my creativity and how I need to process it.” Those are two that really jump out at me of how I respond to them. Yeah, I hope the listeners just be curious about it and just realize, “I push into things like that versus I’m a freak.” It’s just like, “Hey, that’s interesting,” and understanding, let’s say weight, like people laying on you, you just have to feel your body to get connected and anchored and grounded. It is just like, “It’s go time now. I’m going to embrace it and let me push into it,” versus analyzing.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I can imagine there are people who are on the other side of this. They have no frame of reference for anything that I was referring to. But arguably and ironically, the point is still the same. If you don’t feel, let’s just say, comforted by some of these things, there’s still beneficial aspects to it that you may not even know until you have the experience. So it’s not that you’re trying to calm down, so I’m hyperactive or whatever, but it may be even just… Look, here’s a simple thing. Weightlifters, Olympic weightlifters, one of the things they do before they go out and grab a bar and try and throw a huge amount of weight over their head is things to stimulate other parts of their body. Basically, anything that’s waking up your brain is going to have a global effect for whatever you’re doing.

So if you’re on the other side of the things that I’m describing, there’s still a value here that you might discover that was completely unexpected. We’re literally just feeling that little bit of sensory information that you didn’t think made a difference, similar to my story of first trying on the insoles, then you’re going to go do whatever else you’re doing in the day and go, “Oh, wow, that actually did add something to it,” maybe for whatever the exact opposite reason is that I’m talking about. I wish I could think of what that would be, but I’m stuck my own private Idaho at the moment.

I’m dying to hear those stories as well for people to go, “Well, I was never sensitive to anything and I feel totally fine, but holy crap, I just did this and…” I’m sure there are those stories. I mean, I know there are. I just can’t bring one to mind at the moment. But I’m dying to hear what happens when someone who doesn’t relate to some of the things I might have said or thinks that I’m completely full of it or crazy discovers, “Oh, no, but in my world, here’s the way this works.” That’d be really fun.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, I would be totally curious. I am just so in the deep end of sensory that it’s very hard for me to somehow put myself in the other–

Steven Sashen:

Well, here, I’ll give you a way of doing this. I just remembered this once. Back in the days, way back when, I, among other things, was teaching. I developed some weird meditation techniques and was teaching those. At one point, one of the techniques involved paying attention to sensations in your body in a certain way. This one guy said, “I just can’t do it.” I said, “What do you mean?” He goes, “Well, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I can’t figure that out.” Well, it happened to be lunchtime. I said, “Are you hungry right now?” He goes, “Yeah.” I said, How’d you know?” expecting him to say, “Oh, I feel like an emptiness in my stomach, or I’m feeling these sensations here, or whatever.” He goes, “What do you mean? I’m just hungry.” I said, “But what tells you you’re hungry?” He said, “What the hell are you talking about?”

I realized there was nothing wrong with him. He just had a completely different relationship to certain aspects of his experience, to his body in this situation, that’s completely legit, and, oh, there’s another way around that. There’s another way… not around. There’s another way that he has to enter into the conversation that was news to me. We’re all pretty narcissistic in certain ways where we think the way we do things and see things is the way other people should. The toilet paper should be over the roll, not under the roll, which by the way is true.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

It should be over the roll.

Steven Sashen:

Well, don’t tell my sister who disagrees that she is wrong. I just spent a week and a half at her house. It made me insane actually. In fact, when Lena showed up, she turned the toilet paper rolls over, and someone in that house turned them back the wrong way.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh, wow.

Steven Sashen:

Anyway. There are people who are on whatever end of whatever spectrum, but this is just part of being a human being is getting sensory information and how that can impact how you’re functioning. If people want to explore that more, you mentioned we have a couple of your products. We have our Naboso Trail Sandal that we developed, a trail sandal, sports sandal which has the Naboso material already built into it. We are reselling the insoles and the socks, which are awesome. But for people who want to find other things, please tell them how they can find those things and you.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Absolutely. The website is naboso.com, N-A-B-O-S-O.com. We are on social media, naboso_technology. Then for those that are curious about what I do, how I treat patients, how I look at movements, everything is related to thefunctionalfootdoc. That’s my Instagram. That’s my website. I see patients virtually all over the world. So if you are open to that, go to thefunctionalfootdoc.com. My first book is called Barefoot Strong. That’s available on Amazon and on the Naboso website. Then my other book is called Sensory Sapiens, coming soon within a few months.

Steven Sashen:

To a bookstore near you if you know what a bookstore is.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

Well, Emily, as always, a pleasure catching up and sharing all these things that are evolving. It’s wild seeing how you’ve gone from a little something idea to where Naboso has gone. It’s a pleasure to actually see that, and more, to see someone who’s thinking about these things and developing new ideas based on them, not just sticking to a thing and being content with that. It’s like continuing to explore. So I do hope people check out where you are and what you’re doing, and I want to hear more what happens for those of you who do.

For everyone else, just a reminder, first of all, thank you for being here. Go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. There’s nothing you need to do to join. That’s just the domain we have. But you will find previous episodes of which there are hundreds with very interesting people. You will also find where to find us on social media, and you’ll find where to get the podcast if you want to get it somewhere other than where you’re currently getting it. If you have any questions or requests or suggestions, anyone you think should be on the show, or if you think I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome about everything I’m talking about, that’s cool. You can drop me an email. I’m at move, M-O-V-E@jointhemovementmovement.com. Most importantly, go out, have fun, and live life feet first.

Steven and Nick’s Rant Session

marketdomination — Wed, 16 Oct 2024 00:00:22 +0000

Nick St. Louis is the founder and Lead Foot Nerd at TFC. He obtained a Masters of Physical Therapy from Western University and his current obsession is with researching every pillar of health to discover the truths that science has to offer. He now spends less time in clinic and has devoted his days to weaving together a global tribe of people on a mission to collectively solve the health crisis by inspiring and empowering the individual to take back control of their bodies.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Nick St. Louis about the impact of modern athletic footwear marketing claims.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How marketing claims in the fitness industry often lack scientific evidence, creating a challenge in discerning between legitimate research and marketing ploys.

– Why you should embrace natural movement for optimal foot health and well-being

– How many shoe designs are promoted despite lacking evidence of their effectiveness in enhancing performance or preventing injury.

– Why embracing discomfort and risk can lead to growth and resilience in pursuing goals.

– How the human body’s adaptability and resilience allow for achieving physical feats beyond evolutionary expectations.

Connect with Nick:

Guest Contact Info

Instagram
@thefootcollective

Facebook
facebook.com/thefootcollective

Links Mentioned:
thefootcollective.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

What is the most important part of your body that you need to develop to be able to run, walk, hike, do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it is you do, and do that enjoyably and healthily? Is it your abs? Is it your hamstrings? Is it your glutes? Is it something completely different? You’re going to find out on today’s episode of the Movement Movement Podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, typically starting feet first. And by the way, it’s not even your feet, because those things are your foundation, by the way. And we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the outright lies you’ve been told about what it does take to run, walk, hike, yoga, CrossFit, et cetera, et cetera, and to do that enjoyably, and effectively, and efficiently. And did I mention enjoyably?

I know I did, because that’s the most important thing. If you’re not having fun, please do something different till you are. I’m Steven Sashen, your host for the Movement Movement podcast and the CEO of Xeroshoes.com. And we call this the Movement Movement if you’re new to us, because we’re creating a movement about natural movement. We want to make natural movement the obvious, better, healthy choice, the way people think that natural food is right now, and we need your help to do that. So you are part of the movement about natural movement. So to be part of the movement, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. You’ll find previous episodes and all the different places you can interact with this podcast, and content on YouTube and Facebook, and et cetera, et cetera. And that’ll, then you can like and share, and give a thumbs up and hit the bell on YouTube, all those things that you know how to do to spread the word, and to hear about what we’re doing next.

In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, please do subscribe. So this is a recording that I’m going to put on in a second, that was done with my friend Nick from the Foot Collective, Thefootcollective.com, where frankly, we’ve just been chatting and decided to rant a little bit. And in it you’re going to learn about maybe the most important thing that you need to know, the most important part of your body you need to develop in order to, well, like I said, have a healthy, happy, strong body. So let’s dive in, shall we?

Nick St. Louis:

Welcome to the episode of, I don’t know what this is, but it’s going to be fun. I’m chatting with Steve Sashen today, who is the founder and director at Xero Shoes, one of the favorite brands that we have at TFC Shop. And we wanted to do this because Steven is always a treat to talk to, because I love that you just tell it like it is. So let’s just dive into things that we feel need to be talked about.

Steven Sashen:

Hold on, hold on. This phrase, tell it like it is, has a whole different connotation here in America, because some people like to say, “Tell it like it is,” and all they mean is that that person has no filter. Hopefully tell it like it is, means that you’re telling the truth. And I would hope that that’s what I’m doing, because I think that I am and I’m willing to be proven wrong, and then change what I’m doing, which is actually one of the things that we are going to rant about, is people who get… So let’s set the context. You and I were chatting, we were both ranting about something. I don’t know what, perhaps customer behavior, something like when people want to get your attention, they will talk about you on Facebook, but not tag you, and then complain that you didn’t respond to their post, even though there was no literal way you could find it.

Nick St. Louis:

Oh, that’s probably happening right now, but I don’t even know about it. So you know what? Joy is missing out.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah. So I like that one. My other favorite one that’s related to that is someone emails us and they use the wrong email address, and then complain that we don’t respond. I love that one too. That’s a good one.

Nick St. Louis:

Oh yeah. Yeah. I love getting PayPal disputes where people are like, “Yeah, I bought something and it didn’t get sent to me.”

And then we look and it’s like, “You didn’t even enter your correct email.”

Steven Sashen:

Oh no, sorry.

Nick St. Louis:

We’ll fix it for you and pretend like it was our mistake.

Steven Sashen:

No, no. Here’s my favorite. Why did you send the package to my childhood home address? Well, funny you should ask. It’s because for every one of the thousand plus orders we get every day, we check every one of them and do a search to find someone’s childhood address, and randomly select a customer to ship that package to the wrong place. It’s like, what? Anyway, so those were some of our customer rants. Then we have product rants and industry rants as well.

Nick St. Louis:

Yeah. Well, I wanted to talk about, okay, so I think junk science or junk that people are calling science, is something that is coloring many domains of life right now. And I would love to break that down, because I think even we can even take the subdomain of natural footwear. The question that I get, which I find hilarious is, where is the science and the research to show that wearing shoes that let your feet move feet, is better than shoes that don’t let your feet move naturally? Please show me that research. And it’s like, I don’t even know how to respond to this anymore. It’s so crazy.

Steven Sashen:

Then, I’ll tell you how I respond. I say two things, maybe three things. Thing number one, we’re not the intervention. For the thousands of years that humans have been wearing footwear, up until the early ’70s, it mostly looked like ours. In fact, if you look, there was a, archeological dig in Oregon, and they found a sandal that looks remarkably like this. This is our Genesis sandal. I mean, it’s a very similar. Now, the sole is not made of, what’s the word I’m looking for? Rubber. There was another word I couldn’t find. Compression molded rubber. It’s made out of sage bark, but same basic idea. So up until the early ’70s, this is what we doing. So the intervention is the new modern athletic shoe. So the question there is, where’s the evidence for that? And the evidence for that is injuries have not been reduced at all, and performance has not been improved, because of the shoes during that entire time.

And there’s actually hundreds of studies demonstrating that letting your feet move naturally is better than not. So Sarah Ridge at BYU showed that just walking in a pair of minimalist shoes gives you the same strength benefits or increases in strength that you would get if you did an actual foot exercise program. And on the flip side, there’s research, I don’t remember who did it, and I’m not even sure if it’s been published yet. I heard about this from Irene Davis at Harvard, showing that they took orthotics and put them in the shoes of healthy runners, and within 10 weeks they had lost up to 10% of the muscle mass in their feet. That’s not good. And then the third thing I point out-

Nick St. Louis:

So I mean, that’s not a surprise. If you use a crutch-

Steven Sashen:

Of course not.

Nick St. Louis:

… and you don’t use your leg for a month, it’s like you’re probably going to have a weak leg. I think most people would be like, “That makes sense.”

Steven Sashen:

Right, same idea. And a version of that is why is it that people think that feet are somehow horribly designed and they can’t support you? You go to Third World countries and you just don’t find podiatrists treating people or things, where they put them in arch support of any sort.

Nick St. Louis:

They’re not required.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s like if you went to the doctor and said, “My wrist is bothering me.”

And the doctor says, “Oh, we’re going to have to immobilize your neck for the rest of your life.”

You’d go…

Nick St. Louis:

“What? What do you say?”

Yeah, I know. But we applied different logic to a different body part for some reason. And it’s like the whole system abides by the same principles. And I remember, well, when I did a podcast with Golden from Altra, he talked about, I looked up one of his talks from 2013, and he gave stats on rates of foot problems in shod versus un-shod populations. And it was so interesting, because even the superficial stat with that much description is stunning. It’s like 78% of people in shod cultures will develop foot pain at some point. 3% of people in un-shod cultures will develop a foot issue at some point. And then if you put a little asterisk beside that 3%, it’s like by the way, those people step on a tree root or stub their toe, it hurts for a week. And then they’re like, “Yeah, my feet are fine.”

The other people are like, “My feet hurt all the time.” And big surprise, you’re wearing foot casts.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Look, I’ve been predominantly barefoot for the last 12, 13 years. I can’t even do the math anymore. And not that that’s math, that’s just called memory, which I don’t have anymore. I’ve had two injuries.

Nick St. Louis:

Hard drive’s out of space, right?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I’ve got no CPU cycles to spare. I’ve had two injuries in that time, same injury twice. I stubbed my toe. I just wasn’t paying attention. One time walking up my sister’s driveway and the garage pad was like three inches high. I didn’t know that. And I slammed into it. And then a couple of months ago, I’m taking a walk with a friend and we’re walking down the sidewalk, and there was a rock that somehow had gotten moved from being around a tree to the middle of the sidewalk. I wasn’t paying attention.

Nick St. Louis:

And it’s like a little reminder to be a bit more mindful. It’s like that’s literally, that’s what I get when I stub my toe. I’m like, okay, I got to pay attention a little bit more, or it just happens sometimes.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I go for that one. I don’t really care. It’s sort of like I was hanging out with a bunch of psychiatrists and physical therapists, and healers of varying kinds. They were all talking about the different diets they were on, and there’s a pause in the conversation and I said, “I’m on the, I don’t know when I’m going to get hit by a bus diet.”

Nick St. Louis:

I like that one. Give us some more details of what that diet consists of.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s pretty much what I’m in the mood to eat, and that’s about it, because I’m not going to sacrifice something that I enjoy, because I have this imagined scenario of if I eat a certain way, my body will change shape in a particular way, and then I’ll finally be happy. I don’t have that one. So not saying that I love this thing. I’ll tell you a weird personal thing. As I roll out of bed every morning I pinch a little bit of right around my abdomen area to see what my body fat feels like, as if somehow overnight I magically drop 5% body count.

Nick St. Louis:

Has that ever happened?

Steven Sashen:

No. I have had times where I’ve gone to the bathroom and had to take my belt in a notch, but that’s a whole different story. But the whole point is, I mean, I’m not someone who overindulges, I don’t binge on things, but a good piece of chocolate cake. Back in the days when I was a diehard vegan, a friend of mine said, “One of my favorite things about you is you’re a diehard vegan, but if you see a piece of chocolate cake and it’s not vegan, you will eat that cake.”

Nick St. Louis:

Yeah, there’s an exception. A little window that’s personal to everyone. Actually, out of curiosity, what made you want to be a vegan and what made you get out of being a vegan? Cole’s Notes.

Steven Sashen:

I have a genetic disorder, I found out about 10 years ago. I was at the first Paleo Conference, Paleo FX all these people talking about paleo this, paleo that. And of course it was very entertaining, because A, none of the paleo experts could agree on what paleo was or wasn’t. And B, out of the 10 sort of most famous people in that group, five of them were morbidly obese, and four of them had just gotten C-reactive protein scores that were through the roof, because they were eating so much meat.

Nick St. Louis:

Oh, great role models. Great, let’s listen to these people for sure.

Steven Sashen:

Exactly. So there is that dilemma. And besides, back to your point about the truth, the more research that comes out about our paleolithic ancestors, the more we find that what people say, what paleo people say those people ate is not true. They say they never ate grains, and there’s actually evidence they ate tons of grains. They said they never ate basically sugar. They ate tons of sugar. So anyway, whole other story.

Nick St. Louis:

Well, that’s too inconvenient to talk about, Steven. We’ve already created the brand Paleo, people are already drinking the juice, so let’s not talk about that, please.

Steven Sashen:

You’re right. I said to one of the doctors, “This idea that you each have that there’s an ideal diet for all human beings, even though you can’t agree on what that diet is, it’s kind of silly. Because,” I said, “I’m a genetic freak.”

And the guy says, “What do you mean?”

I said, “Well, I’m a sprinter and I’m a Jewish sprinter, so not a whole lot of us. In fact-”

Nick St. Louis:

Oh, interesting.

Steven Sashen:

“… you may be talking to the fastest Jew in the world, but that’s a whole other story.” That’s the issue of a world over 55. Anyway, but I said to this guy, “You guys all talk about eating a lot of meat. I’ve never liked meat since the day I was born.” I remember vividly, my mom would make pork chops. I would chew it up and stuff it in my cheek, and then make an excuse to go to the bathroom and spit it in the toilet. My dad, I couldn’t have been more than seven or eight, and my dad-

Nick St. Louis:

What turned you off from it? Was it the texture or the taste, or just weren’t a fan?

Steven Sashen:

Well, I’ll get there. So here we go. So I got to tell you this one, that one day my dad said, “You’re going to sit under the table until you finish that whatever piece of meat it was.”

And I stayed there for three hours, until he said, “Go to bed.”

So I said to this doctor, “I’ve never liked meat.”

And he says, “Well, do you like coffee?”

I said, “No.”

He says, “Do you like tea?”

I said, “If I never drank another cup, I wouldn’t miss it.”

He said, “Do you like red wine?”

I said, “No.”

And he goes down this list of foods that I either aggressively don’t like or would never miss if I never had another taste of them again.

Nick St. Louis:

He said chocolate?

Steven Sashen:

He said, “You don’t taste…”

Chocolate was a whole different game. He says, “You have a genetic disorder. You don’t taste savory flavors.”

So I look it up and I had my genome sequenced, and in fact, I have a known genetic disorder. It’s kind of rare, where I just don’t taste savory flavors, the umami flavor. And so, meat just tastes like slightly irony, slightly metallic mush.

Nick St. Louis:

Wow, that’s very interesting.

Steven Sashen:

It’s like being colorblind. I was at a dinner party, someone brought in some raised by virgins, massaged by nuns, blessed by the Dalai Lama beef. And so, I like to try things. I’m always curious. So I tried a bite and I said to this whole room full of people, and I was genuinely curious. I said, “So this has a flavor that you actually can taste and enjoy?”

And everyone looked at me like I was crazy. And my wife says, “You made everyone so self-conscious, you ruined the meal for them.”

Nick St. Louis:

Yeah, it just destroyed it. They were like, “Well, now it doesn’t taste as good anymore.”

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah. It wasn’t my intention. I mean, I was genuinely curious, because I couldn’t taste it. So what made me be a vegan was just let’s just drop dairy for the fun of it and see what happens. And I didn’t notice it and didn’t miss it. And what got me out of being a vegan, this is going to sound crazy. I’m walking by, I’m walking along a sidewalk by Whole Foods. This is 15 years ago maybe. And literally the thought popped in my head, a thought that I hadn’t had in ages, and the thought was sushi. And I went, “Okay.” And so, I went in and got a little thing of sushi and that was the end of my veganness. And so, I eat some dairy. I have some kind of fishy something two or three times a week. That’s about it.

Nick St. Louis:

I like it. Yeah. I love Joel Furman’s approach of just being a nutritarian. It’s like, just eat things high in nutrients. And it turns out if you do that and you eliminate a lot of the unnatural stuff, it doesn’t really matter what you eat, how much you eat of it, you’re going to do okay.

Steven Sashen:

Takes care of most of it. I was taking a walk with a friend of mine and she said, “I wish I would just, I’m trying to listen to my body to know what I need to eat.”

And I literally fell on the ground laughing. I said, “Well, first of all, I’m laughing because I used to have thoughts like that. And what’s so funny is I can answer your question and address the question underneath your question. So your question is, I know what your body wants to eat, ice cream, french fries, chocolate cake. I mean, basically as many calories as fast as you can get. So that’s what we know. But you have this idea that you could quote, ‘listen to your body.’ I don’t know what that means. And that if you did, it would ask you to eat things that you think would change your body in such a way that you would eventually like it and be happy. But that’s just silly. If you walk around and ask a million people, do you like the way this thing looks or functions? You will not find anybody who says yes, everyone’s going to have a thing they don’t like, a thing that doesn’t work the way they want. This is just a concept that we have. And you’re making yourself crazy.”

Nick St. Louis:

Because we’re told all day that you’re not the way you should be or that you could be better, literally surrounded by messaging all day long. How could people not feel that?

Steven Sashen:

Well, this is one of my rants, is that especially in the West, we have this idea that there’s a certain collection of thoughts that we have that are personal and that need to be resolved. And most of them are just proof that we’re human beings. So I don’t like my body and I should like it. Why do you think that you should? None of us do mostly, because we never developed the skill to look in one of these and determine whether there was bacteria in it.

What we developed is the skill of taking a sip and then checking to see how it feels, and then knowing if we need to throw up as quickly as possible, if it doesn’t do it automatically. So we’ve developed this hypersensitivity to internal sensations that we now just have no reason to use them, and so we just turn it internally forever. So there’s all these things that are just proof of this is the way human beings work, and we take it as a sign of a personal problem, which is fundamentally wrong. But anyway, this a tangent from, this was a tangent about science and telling it like it is. I’m going to give you a science one. Here’s one of my science rants.

How do I want to do this one? Nike has a new shoe, new issue called the React Infinity Run. And the way they advertise it, you go to a store, if anyone remembers what stores are, you go to a store and there’s a little sign underneath the shelf with the shoe that says, “Designed to reduce injury,” which I think is hysterical.

Nick St. Louis:

I know, that is so disturbing. How does Vibram get in trouble to say, “You wear shoes with less support, your feet are going to get stronger.”

And then Nike says, “These will prevent injury,” and it’s like-

Steven Sashen:

It doesn’t say it’s better. It doesn’t say, “We’ll prevent injury.” It says, “Designed to reduce injury.” Who designed shoes to increase injury?

Nick St. Louis:

All of our other shoes are designed to increase them, but these ones aren’t.

Steven Sashen:

Right. Well, it’s like Cheerios. It says supports heart health. It’s a meaningless phrase. I mean, heart health is meaningless and supports is meaningless in that sentence. But here’s the kicker. This study-

Nick St. Louis:

Avoid any foods that make health claims. That’s a good heuristic that I share with people. It’s like, if it makes health claims, it’s probably not something that’s tremendous for you.

Steven Sashen:

I don’t know. There’s a new super food that I heard about that comes out of the Amazon, that the three guys who ate it are 3000 years old, and how can you argue with those facts?

Nick St. Louis:

I want to talk to those guys. If it’s true then. But they’re not advertising on their boxes though. That’s the difference.

Steven Sashen:

No, but if you do advertise with them, you’re exploiting tribal populations, and that’s not good either. But so, Nike does this thing. They say it’s an independent study that they designed and that they paid for, and they had a third-party perform. And in fact, the Nike, the React Infinity Run did reduce injuries by 50% compared to the other shoe that they used, which was their best-selling motion control running shoe. I don’t remember what it’s called unfortunately, in a 12-week study.

And the way they defined injuries was that whatever happens puts you out for at least three running sessions. So really it’s like a 10-week study. In that first 10 weeks, they’re looking to injury rates. Their best-selling motion control shoe, over 30% of the people got injured. In the new designed to reduce injury, only 14.5% got injured. Now, on the one hand you would go, “Hey, that’s great. It actually did reduce injury by 50%.”

On the other hand, the way I like to frame it is, I’m going to buy you dinner tonight. Which restaurant do you want to go to? The one where you’re going to get food poisoning, one out of seven meals or one out of three meals?

Nick St. Louis:

That’s a great way of putting it.

Steven Sashen:

Because that’s basically what they’re saying, you’re going to get injured. I mean, one out of seven people who wear this shoe is still going to get injured within the first 10 weeks.

Nick St. Louis:

I know. It’s crazy. So that’s the manipulation of, you’re basically just manipulating people with what you’re telling them about what you did, with no reference to the actual details, nor is the average person interested. They’re just like, “Tell me something’s good and I want to buy it. Here’s my money.” It’s crazy.

Steven Sashen:

But here’s what’s worse. It’s worse than not only is the average person not interested. The people who reprint this press release in the media, they’re not interested. They were reprinting this before the actual study was released. So Nike put out a press release saying reduces injury by 50%. It gets reprinted basically verbatim. No one looked into it. I tracked down the guy who did the study and said, “Can you show me the study?”

And amazingly, he sent it to me before it was even published. That’s how I found out the numbers, which weren’t being mentioned at all.

Nick St. Louis:

I love that.

Steven Sashen:

When Adidas came out with, and for the snobs in the room or Europeans, Adidas, when Adi came out with their boost foam. And yes, if you want to be a real snob, you call it Adi. And for people who wonder why it’s Adi Dassler, Adidas. Anyway, they took this two pound, roughly two pound steel ball, bounced it off the boost foam, showed how bouncy it was compared to the other company’s foam, which wasn’t very bouncy. Of course, no other company uses this foam ever. But more importantly-

Nick St. Louis:

You don’t tell people that, that’s fine.

Steven Sashen:

Not important. Other company. Some other company. But here’s the kicker, you’re not a two pound steel ball.

Nick St. Louis:

What, you mean those results aren’t going to accurately carry over to my body? No, that can’t be right, Steven.

Steven Sashen:

I would never say anything like that. I’m just saying you’re not a two pound steel ball.

Nick St. Louis:

Okay. We can agree on that.

Steven Sashen:

Telling it like it is. And it’s one of these things that the fact that we don’t have good science education and people aren’t good at critical thinking, makes people susceptible to admittedly brilliant marketing. I mean, look, here’s the best one ever. You go into a running shoe store and they’ll have a treadmill, and they’ll put you on that treadmill and evaluate you in some way, and then recommend a shoe. Two things. You go to different shoe stores, you’re going to recommend different shoes. So that calls it into question to begin with. Second thing is, this whole idea, I don’t know if Brooks invented it, but it’s part of their run signature program, where they put little dots on your knees too and watch you squat a few times. Then have you run, oh, in socks on the treadmill. They won’t tell you to run barefoot, because they don’t want to give you the idea that you can do that, but just get more information.

Nick St. Louis:

Cannot slip any notion that being barefoot is good for people.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Definitely can’t do that. So then they have you run and then they make some diagnosis about which Brooks shoe is right for you. Well, this is based on an idea that there are different kinds of feet and different kinds of movement that correlate to certain shoes you’re supposed to wear. Well, the Army, who gets a lot of people injured when they’re training, because they’re running in these big stiff boots, but they don’t think that’s why they, decided to do a test. And they took, I think it was maybe 900 people, split them into two groups. And one group was divided into three groups. Actually it was divided into three groups, split in half, however you want to think about that. And one half of the half got the shoes that were recommended for one of those three groups they were in. Neutral shoe, a motion control shoe, whatever.

Nick St. Louis:

For their foot type.

Steven Sashen:

For their foot type. And the other group was just given a random shoe, the difference in injury rates? Zero.

Nick St. Louis:

Big donut.

Steven Sashen:

So this whole idea of-

Nick St. Louis:

I wonder who didn’t tell Brooks that?

Steven Sashen:

I’ve told the CEO of Brooks that. He knows.

Nick St. Louis:

I’m guessing not a lot was done about that, because yeah, it is marketing. The problem is marketing is being sold as science. That is the core of the problem.

Steven Sashen:

Correct. There’s another version. I was on this panel discussion at the American College of Sports Medicine, and both Brooks and Adidas, sorry, Adidas, Adi, they were both there. And when they were asked, “What’s the future of footwear?”

They both said the same thing, which is basically individual differences, accommodating what’s unique to you. So Brooks, their idea was they were going to change the outsole and maybe put something a little thicker here or a little thicker here, depending on how you ran. And for Adi, it was changing the midsole to do something similar. Well, Adi’s project for doing that has been suspended, because I asked the obvious question, “Where’s the proof that this improves in performance or reduces injury?”

To which they had no answer. Adi is currently not going on this project, because it was based on a custom-made 3D printed midsole, and they essentially found that it’s just not tenable. I don’t know what Brooks is doing, but Brooks practically admitted that they want to give you a different shoe for everything you could possibly do. One shoe for walking into the bathroom, one shoe for walking out of the bathroom, because you weigh less. I mean, just crazy stuff.

Nick St. Louis:

I wonder why. It’s almost like they make more money than more shoes they sell you.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. We’ve had people tell us we have a 5,000-mile sole warranty on our shoes, and we’ve had business advisors say, “You need to make shoes that don’t last as long.”

And I go, “No.”

Nick St. Louis:

I love that. I love your, so the three hours under the table, that stubbornness clearly has permeated through your whole life, which is probably why you make shoes, because it seems like the craziest thing to embark on. But when no one else is doing it, it’s like, yeah, I’m just going to sit under the table for three hours. I’m just going to chew glass and go through the process of making shoes.

Steven Sashen:

I don’t think of myself as stubborn. I think of myself as committed to truth. And the truth is, I did want to swallow that chewed up stuff in my cheek. And the truth is that the benefits that my wife and I discovered when we got out of shoes were so demonstrable. And then people kept asking me to make barefoot style sandals for them, and they had the same kind of benefits. And then, while we were just in the process of doing that, we met some guys who, they’d been in footwear for like 35 years. They all started at Reebok actually, and then moved around. It’s very incestuous business. And they recently went out on their own and they said, “We believe natural movement’s the most important thing there is. We believe in you guys and what you’re doing, and we would start this business with you. But we’ve been in footwear so long that we’re not stupid enough to try and start a shoe company.”

And Lena and I said, “Yeah, we know we’re hyper optimistic and naive. That’s how things get done. So away we go.”

Nick St. Louis:

Exactly. The dreamers are the ones who make the change. And sometimes you got to learn as you go, but yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s the people who have a very bizarre misunderstanding of risk tolerance.

Nick St. Louis:

That’s a polite way of saying naive.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly. For me, the worst thing that happens is I go broke. All right, whatever. If I have to go to Baja, California, live on the beach, I can do that. I know how to spearfish.

Nick St. Louis:

Yeah. Doesn’t sound too bad.

Steven Sashen:

No. I met somebody is a homeless woman, actually, sorry. It was a friend of mine who met this woman on Venice Beach, and she was just sitting there with her shopping cart full of stuff on this one bench. And my friend struck up a conversation with her and she said, “Yeah, I just stay here in front of this house every day.”

And my friend says, “Oh, is it to inspire you to get off the street?”

She goes, “No, that used to be my house. It’s to remind me how miserable I was when I lived in it.”

Nick St. Louis:

Wow, mic drop. That is powerful.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a stunner. I really like that one a lot.

Nick St. Louis:

That’s great.

Steven Sashen:

All right, so science masquerading. What’s happened? Look, here’s Science 101, the Vibram lawsuit.

Nick St. Louis:

We have to rescue science, by the way, because people are starting to get a really shitty perspective of science, but it’s not fair, because science is this beautiful mindset of constantly trying to prove yourself wrong, to figure out the truth. And we can’t let the word get bastardized by all these people that are messing it up. So how do we rescue science and reclaim its true essence? It’s really frustrating.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, I’m sure you and I can do that on our own. That’s a piece of cake. I think it’s a really good question actually. And I’m going to talk completely out of my butt and make things up for the next 30 seconds, because I don’t know. But thing that occurs to me is that we are no longer, or I don’t know if we ever were educating children on how to think clearly, on how to assess information accurately, how to look for counterfactuals, how to look. This is a thing that I do all the time. Wait, I’m going to find something to draw on.

Whenever someone tells me something that just has the ring of not true, I do this thing. This is like statistics 101. I didn’t know that. I just, again, if you learn to think, you start figuring these things out. So people say A, look at that, I’m writing upside down. They go, A leads to B. Here, wait, I’ll draw an arrow. That’s what I’m saying. I’m saying that A leads to B. Now, what I then say is how many times does A lead to C? Which is the opposite of B, and how many times does D maybe lead to B? And if D and C are bigger than A, A is probably not right. That’s-

Nick St. Louis:

That’s very elegant. I like that.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a really simple thing and it’s kind of an Occam’s razor thing. Look here, I’m going to step on a bunch of toes right now, pun intended. Let’s talk about grounding and earthing, shall we?

Nick St. Louis:

Oh, I would love to. And just as a side note for that, what I always come back to if we want to rescue science is improve public science literacy at a very basic level, like what you just did. And only the people who are willing to actually listen are going to be the ones you give a shit about anyway, because they’re the only ones that matter. The people who don’t care to want to learn, you almost have to wait until you get more people on your ship before you can then start to invite other people that aren’t ready.

Steven Sashen:

I think, look, kids are naturally curious, but what they’re up against is evolutionary biology. These things inside of our skulls are not wired to think critically. They’re wired to come to very quick decisions and stick to them ,because it’s not energy efficient to every time you’re in the savanna and the grass is doing this, to figure out if hiding behind the grass is something that you’re going to eat or something that wants to eat you. You need to make a snap decision and react fast. Now, you can make the wrong decision. You can decide that that’s saber-toothed lion, and it’s a saber-toothed bunny, and you run away, and you’re passing your genes on to a bunch of other scared idiots. So that’s the thing. But kids are naturally curious, and if you give them the ability to investigate things, many of them are really, really into it. I mean, there’s a reason why this is not, I’m not trying to make a gender-specific thing, but boys more than girls are super interested in watching construction projects.

Nick St. Louis:

Yes, I-

Steven Sashen:

They like seeing how things work.

Nick St. Louis:

Yep.

Steven Sashen:

A friend of mine made a bajillion dollars once he had a son, and he noticed this. He just took a camera out to construction sites and shot 30 minutes of video, and sold those videos, made millions.

Nick St. Louis:

Genius.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So again, we’re not wired to do this, because the energy and efficiency of it. And in fact, when you create a new belief and someone challenges it, the research is very clear. You actually use that contrary information to hold onto your belief even more firmly. And when you really challenge somebody on it, they react like you’re trying to kill them. And I think that’s a neurological phenomenon, where the way we store certain kind of beliefs is very similar to the way we store our very sense of identity. And so, they’re very tightly, tightly wound.

Nick St. Louis:

Yeah. So you got to decouple those. And I mean, I learned, I think that’s one of the biggest things you see is, people take attacks on their concept. They’re not even attacks. But trying to give someone a different perspective and challenging the one they hold is like you’re challenging their entire existence.

Steven Sashen:

Even just asking them questions. A friend of mine used to bring people that he knew to a brunch that we had every Sunday, just to get them to argue with me about things. Did we land on the moon?

Nick St. Louis:

It’s like speed chess, you’re just there. No, yes, no,

Steven Sashen:

No. What I would do, I would ask them questions about the arguments they were presenting and they wouldn’t be able to answer the questions. And I never made one comment about my position.

Nick St. Louis:

Right. You just went straight up Socratic on them.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. When someone talked about the moon landing being fake, I said, “Do you know what kind of computers were being used at the time to display information?”

Because in the ’60s, human beings didn’t have computers. I remember the first computer that I ever saw was not something, in fact, ironically was playing Lunar Lander, the first little game on a 300 baud modem in junior high school or high school. And even that wasn’t a good simulation. So what kind of computer does it take to do a simulation that’s good enough to fool the hundred thousand people that were involved in that project, and did that computer exist at that time? And their brains would start to fry. And the answer is no. Those things didn’t exist at this time. I mean, they were doing this stuff on slide rules, figuring out how to get people to the moon. So anyway, there was a tangent about teaching people and there was something else. I don’t remember.

Nick St. Louis:

The solution to taking back science. And then we got into, yeah, I think the Socratic method of just asking people who get upset when you ask them questions, it’s very telling. And sometimes that is my deep participation in the conversation where it’s like, I just asked you a question and you got upset. I don’t know if I want to pursue more energy in it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, here’s another variation of that, and this will be a rant of mine. So I’ve been living and breathing this stuff for more than a decade. People will challenge me with their opinions about things for which they have little to no information. And when I present the data that I’ve collected over the years, not my personal opinions, but actual information, they don’t handle it very well.

Nick St. Louis:

Why do you think they don’t handle it very well?

Steven Sashen:

I have two favorites. One is someone who didn’t like that we weren’t a 100% vegan company and said, “Well, why don’t you use these other vegan leathers?”

I said, “Because there aren’t any that perform well enough for what we’re trying to do.”

And he said, “What about this pineapple leather?”

And I said, without having to look it up, because I already knew about it, “Oh, the one that explicitly says it’s not for use in footwear?”

And he said, “What about the mushroom leather at the time?”

I said, “Oh,” and again, I knew about it already. I said, “At the time, they’d only made one yard of it.” I said, “So it doesn’t exist and it’s super expensive. Now by the way, they’re using it for things and it also says not for use for footwear.”

And he says, “What about,” he mentioned one or two other things, and I knew about them already and responded already, because I’ve looked into it already. Until finally his only response to me is, “Well, what makes you such an expert?”

Nick St. Louis:

It’s your job.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s exactly what I said. It’s because I am one of the experts on the planet about this. I mean, it’s what I do all day every day. So that’s a favorite. My other favorite is humans didn’t evolve to run on hard surfaces. So this is a naturalistic fallacy that there was some Edenic time where we were all just swimming in chocolate rivers and having grapes fed to us by angels.

Nick St. Louis:

And running on trampolines, everywhere we go.

Steven Sashen:

And running on trampolines. And I say, “Well, dude, have you ever been to the places that you think we evolved in?”

I mean, it’s worse than running on any road. Hard packed mud, just like cement, but with prickly stickly things and hot things in a way that you’ve never experienced. Go down to the Copper Canyon and run with the Tarahumara. I mean, what they’re running on is like what we all ran on for thousands of years. And boy, you will pick a paved road any day of the week.

But the other interesting part is, even if we didn’t, “evolve to run on those surfaces,” that doesn’t mean we’re not able to. If we grew up on a different surface, that doesn’t mean we’re not adaptable to other things.

Nick St. Louis:

And I think some people actually make the slippery, they lose the distinguish between concrete. Maybe we weren’t supposed to run, we didn’t evolve to run on asphalt, but that doesn’t say that we’re unable, like you’re saying. But they immediately take that and then they kind of sneak in hard surfaces as a replacement for that, thinking they’re synonymous. And if you agree that okay, asphalt didn’t exist a thousand years ago, I agree with that, and we didn’t run on that, but that doesn’t mean we can’t run on hard surfaces or that we didn’t run on hard surfaces. So it’s like these little tricks that people don’t really, I’d even think notice, but they just say, and they’re like, “See, that’s the truth.”

Steven Sashen:

Well, and again, it goes back to this whole, it goes back to this thing, it goes back to counterfactuals. It’s like, okay, if you believe we didn’t evolve to run on a hard surface, can you look for an opposite case? Can you look for a case where we did run on surfaces that are hard or difficult, or dangerous in some way? And see if there’s examples. Here’s a fun example, back to Paleo. There’s a woman named Denise Minger, M-I-N-G-E-R, whom I totally adore. She’s brilliant and smart, and just absolutely wonderful, and very funny. And she became the belle of the Paleo ball, because she had been a diehard raw food vegan and then started having a bunch of health problems, and then switched to being like, “I’m just going to go kill my own cow and eat it raw,” practically.

Nick St. Louis:

Good for her.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So she got totally, totally into paleo things, and the paleo people loved her, because she was a former vegan. Well, she’s also a smart researcher, so she decided to research some of the things that the paleo people were saying, and look for counterfactuals. So refined carbohydrates are bad for you. Well, let’s check. And she found some tribes, some parts of the world, where people eat like 80% of their calories come from refined carbohydrates, and they do not have the health problems that the paleo community was saying that you would get if you ate refined carbohydrates.

There are other people who don’t eat refined carbohydrates, but just get the majority of their dietary calorie intake through other forms of carbohydrate, including sugar, just plain straight sugar or honey. Again, they don’t have the health problems that the paleo community suggested. What they do is they don’t eat too many calories and they’re relatively active. So the whole thing of looking for an-

Nick St. Louis:

And their lifestyle reflects what our biology is built for, even external to that. There’s so many little things that we do that are so countered to what our biology is built for. We discount all the other things sometimes.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and back to your point about what our biology is built for. Again, the idea that there’s a one size fits all is something that we all love the idea of, and sometimes it’s true, and I’ll say that about that in a second, and sometimes it’s not. So there’s this idea that there’s a diet that’s the best diet. Well, Denise, oh, she also looked at the rice diet. The rice diet was something that was done at Duke University, which is where I went, and there was a guy who took morbidly obese people and put them on a diet of basically just fruit juice and raw white sugar. Not only did they lose, I mean, they were eating as much as they could eat all day every day. Now, the challenge with this diet is he literally whipped people into eating, because it’s so unpalatable to eat like that, and he was just trying to force them to get calories in their body, and they could eat as-

Nick St. Louis:

Like with a whip, a literal physical whip?

Steven Sashen:

Literally.

Nick St. Louis:

That’s great. That seems, how did you get that one by ethical review board?

Steven Sashen:

Once they found out, the whole thing disappeared. And when I was at Duke, I knew people who delivered for Domino’s who got paid a thousand dollars a pizza to sneak pizzas in to some of the people who were on the rice diet.

Nick St. Louis:

That’s great. A thousand dollars. Wow.

Steven Sashen:

Thousand dollars.

Nick St. Louis:

Those guys hit the jackpot.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it was a good one. So I was like, I got to start delivering pizza. But anyway, not only did it bring their weight down to normal, it eliminated permanently their diabetes. And so again, a massive counterfactual. So the idea that there’s a single diet for everyone, so certain things about our biology are probably unique to us for various reasons. Our gut microbiome, our ancestry, a number of things, but certain things are not unique to us.

What makes efficient running? What’s the best way? Look, what’s the best way to get the most foot? Let’s just use something simple, push-ups. What’s the best way to orient your body and do push-ups? You might have some arguments about whether where you position your elbows and how wide your hands are, but there’s one thing you’re never going to disagree about. Do you do this with your fingers or do you do this with your fingers? There’s no one who’s ever going to do a push-up like this, because this is more stable, similar idea with your feet. So there’s certain things-

Nick St. Louis:

Those biomechanical principles that apply regardless of how special you think you are.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly. Moment arms are moment arms, doesn’t make a difference who you are. You might be better or worse at certain things based on your muscle belly and the length of your femur, various things, but fundamentally, it’s still going to be the same, that if you land with your foot in front of your body, you’re applying breaking forces, which you then put additional stress on the body, and then you have to reaccelerate and do that in a place where you prime movers, your glutes and hamstrings, are not being used optimally and under stress. When you’re pulling instead of pushing, that’s problematic.

Nick St. Louis:

Well, what about runner X who runs ultra marathons all the time, whereas extremely cushioned shoes, heel strikes. They do it, so it must be okay.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, there’s a couple of things for that. One is how long are they able to continue doing that enjoyably and healthily? And some people, maybe they can because look, here’s, well, this is another thing about science. And even I will argue the minimalist community misrepresents science very frequently or misrepresents what they think of science very frequently, and so they’ll show pictures of people landing with their heel first and say, see their heel striking. That’s bad. I go, “Whoa, you don’t know how fast that person moving across the ground. For all you know, their foot’s coming in contact with the ground-”

Nick St. Louis:

Maybe they’re walking also.

Steven Sashen:

Well, they’re clearly running in this case, but they could be walking. But even still, the fact that your heel comes in contact with the ground first, the more important thing is the force application. So if you’re moving fast enough-

Nick St. Louis:

Right, the rate of loading.

Steven Sashen:

Exactly. Your heel might touch the ground first, but by the time, the split second that it takes to end up sort of flat-footed, for example, could be so fast that for all practical purposes, you’re a mid-foot lander, it just doesn’t really matter. And there are some people who are just better able to tolerate certain things than others. There are some people who, I mean for whatever reason, but you can’t use the exception to try and prove the rule in this case.

Nick St. Louis:

You can’t use one snapshot to say, do you know anything about that person’s injury history? Do you know anything about, have you tested… What about runners that don’t run that way and that run with less injuries? There’s so many variables missing, and it’s really easy to simplify it to the point where it proves what you’re trying to prove, but it doesn’t mean that it’s actually true.

Steven Sashen:

Right. Human beings, again, another things we want to do is try and simplify things as much as possible, and we usually go way too far and oversimplify things. So look, the whole barefoot thing when people say this is partly what got Vibram in trouble, is that the way the five fingers was positioned and the way barefoot running was positioned in 2009, was just take off your shoes or put on a pair of five fingers, and everything’s going to be great. It just wasn’t true, and I’m the first one to say it’s not about the footwear, it’s about the form. It’s just that certain footwear makes it easier or less easy to get enough feedback to notice your shitty form and to adapt to a better form, and it’s all about the feedback. This is why Irene Davis breaks things down in what she calls minimalist and partial minimalist shoes. I accused her of being politically correct and that if she weren’t, she would say true minimalist and fake minimalist, and the fake minimalist are the ones put out by pretty much every major shoe company. Which A, are typically-

Nick St. Louis:

They have less of the crap, but they don’t have no crap.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly. Usually they’re too narrow in the mid-foot, they’re often not wide enough in the forefoot, and they have too much padding. And it’s the padding, because then you can’t feel enough to get the information that you need, that that’s the real biggest problem.

Nick St. Louis:

It’s like Steven, you can either swallow this much mercury or we’ll give you a little bit less. What would you rather? It’s like, I don’t want any mercury. Actually, I’m good.

Steven Sashen:

Well, the mercury is the dessert they give you with that restaurant where it’s either one of the seven meals that gives you food poisoning, or one of three meals. So they have this amazing Mercury flambé just, oh man.

Nick St. Louis:

It’s to die for.

Steven Sashen:

It’s to die for.

Nick St. Louis:

Okay, two things and then we’ll wrap up, and I think we should just, I was like, oh yeah, we’ll do half an hour. It is what it is, but we’ve already gotten 45 minutes, so maybe we should just do these once a month and just have a release valve for talking about shit that we don’t talk about otherwise, maybe. Two things. Number one, I had this kind of thought in my head, when someone the other day is like, “I found a research study that I think is pretty good, that shows orthotics help reduce foot pain.”

And I was like, okay, let’s play. If someone comes up to you and says, “Steven, what color is the sky?” Let’s just go real time. Let’s just pretend this is real. Steven, what color is the sky?

Steven Sashen:

I’m going to say blue, but only because I’m giving a colloquially correct answer.

Nick St. Louis:

Okay, perfect. Well, what if I told you I have research to show that the sky’s black? What would you say about that? I have a thousand pictures. I have a lot of data, a thousand pictures that show that the sky is black, so I don’t know if the sky is blue and I’d like you to prove me otherwise, because I have research. Do you have research to show that the sky is blue?

Steven Sashen:

I don’t actually. In fact, yeah, in fact there’s some… Well, anyway, no, I don’t.

Nick St. Louis:

What I would say is, do you have eyeballs? Yes. Go outside and see what color the sky is and then we can both. Let’s just go look together and it’s like people forget that you can figure shit out yourself. Scientists don’t have to tell you everything.

Steven Sashen:

Hold on, hold on. This is going to sound paradoxical and absurd, then this next thing I’m going to say. I have a friend who’s one of the smartest people I know. That’s not the absurd part. Here it is. Who thinks the earth might be flat. Now, I have said to him exactly what you just said. There are from the flat earth model, there are comments about where the sun and the moon should be seen at certain places at certain times of the year. The best thing to do is go down to the bottom of South America and then take a look and see what you see. I said, “I will pay you to get on an airplane and go check, and see if the sun is in fact where the flat earth model says it should be,” when like the solstice for example. He won’t do it. He won’t do it. He refuses-

Nick St. Louis:

He doesn’t want to change his mind.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, he refuses to use his own experience. Now, but here’s the problem with what you said. It’s really-

Nick St. Louis:

Well, what if you’re colorblind? That could be a problem.

Steven Sashen:

Well, what if you’re colorblind and you don’t have the ability to perceive the information correctly, and we are really not good at looking at information correctly or accurately. So there’s certain kinds of things that to measure them or to understand them requires an understanding of chemistry, biology, physics, usually physics, that if you don’t have it just doesn’t seem to make sense.

Nick St. Louis:

Right.

Steven Sashen:

I mean, look, let’s do a simple thing. Is there a divine creator being? I’m not going to take a position on this, but I will say when you just think about what a human body does, how a human body works, it is so literally unbelievably complex and amazing that I can understand why people would come to a conclusion that there is a divine creator being.

Nick St. Louis:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Again, I’m not saying there is or there isn’t, but it makes sense. When you look out at this stuff-

Nick St. Louis:

But I get it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. When you look out at the sky at night, especially if you’re somewhere where there’s not a lot of ambient light and you just see all the stars, and you contemplate how far away they are, how vast what you can see is, knowing that you can’t, that all you need is a small telescope to see 10 times more. It’s so literally awesome and overwhelming that there’s this interesting phenomenon that I experience, of an almost innate urge to find a parental figure that makes it all seem okay, because it is literally awesome and overwhelming.

Nick St. Louis:

Right, and it’s comfortable to have an explanation that gives you a rationalization to make sense of things regardless of how actually rational that explanation is.

Steven Sashen:

Correct, and there are certain things where you can get the data really easily, but you need to know more stuff to understand-

Nick St. Louis:

To make meaning of it.

Steven Sashen:

… to what the data is really telling you. So like with the flat earth guys, there’s some really, really easy data that you can show them to prove that the earth is curved, but you need to know a couple of other things about, gosh, how light bends when it goes through different surfaces. And if you don’t want to get into that, again, it goes back to what you were saying before. There’s a, people are distrusting of anyone who knows more than them. Didn’t used to be that way. It used to be that you respected people who had spent time to learn more, but now there’s a distrust of people who seem to know more.

Nick St. Louis:

But they trust Nike, which is weird.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and that’s the thing. Over time, they do trust whatever someone… Look, say a lie, often enough people believe it’s the truth. And then believe it’s the truth often enough, and everyone starts to agree, because the person who originally said it doesn’t need to say it anymore. It becomes part of the cultural-

Nick St. Louis:

Called propaganda.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Parents now teach their kids they need arch support and motion control. Nike doesn’t have to say that anymore. They don’t. Now they just say, “Don’t you want to be like this genetic freak who you will never be like?”

Nick St. Louis:

Right, and know nothing about the shoes that person’s actually wearing. I spoke to a designer for Jordan brand and he’s like, the shoe that LeBron’s wearing, you might think it’s the same one you buy off the shelf that is basically a steel cast put perfectly in an orientation to think that it’s helping his foot.

Steven Sashen:

Correct.

Nick St. Louis:

Very weird.

Steven Sashen:

Correct. Yeah, it’s really funny. LeBron, wait. No, no. Kobe, obviously before he died, did a video about what he thought a perfect basketball shoe would be. First of all, it was a low top. Secondly, it looked a lot like our stuff. And then, what they actually made is-

Nick St. Louis:

Do you know where that video is? Is that out in the interwebs?

Steven Sashen:

It is. I’ll send you a link and you can post it. It’s a two part interview, because the second part you’ll see is really fun. It’s the shoe they made, which is not what he asked for.

Nick St. Louis:

Big surprise.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. It’s like there some researchers who went to the Adi lab and they analyzed his gait, and said, “Well, you’re an overstriding heel striker, so we have to make a shoe for you that has extra cushioning in the heel.”

So if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. They believe that that’s a fine thing to do, that you need to accommodate for. Despite all the research showing you can’t accommodate for it. There’s no amount of cushioning that accommodates for that.

Nick St. Louis:

And like you said, if you’re not, the light bending part is knowing the intense complexity of the human body and how adaptable and resilient it is. If you don’t know that, then you need to take some sort of technology and use that to do that job. And that’s like, they’re not willing to see how good the body is a self organizing and adapting to be efficient. And that’s the problem.

Steven Sashen:

Well, here, let’s talk about what bodies naturally do. I’m a former all-American gymnast. Bodies, we did not evolve to do double twisting, double backflips.

Nick St. Louis:

Right, but we can.

Steven Sashen:

I did one. I did it.

Nick St. Louis:

There you go. Well, you just proved evolution wrong, I guess. Anyway, I think that’s a good place to leave it.

Steven Sashen:

No, no. Wait. Here. I’m going to prove something else wrong really quickly. One of my best friends became a best friend. He’s a world champion cross country runner, master’s world champion. And one day at practice, he finishes a run. He goes, “I just said a personal best on one of these runs, and I wasn’t even going to come out this morning, because I just felt like crap.”

I said, “Do you ever have races where you feel like crap and you win?”

He goes, “Yeah.”

And by the way, I’ve asked this to a couple of Olympians, and they give the exact same answers. Do you ever have races where you felt like crap and you win? Yes. Have you ever had races where you felt great and you couldn’t make it work? He goes, “Yeah.”

I said, “Well, you just disproved sports psychology.”

Nick St. Louis:

Or you just created a different realm of sports psychology, which is the total opposite of sports psychology.

Steven Sashen:

Well, no. Well, possibly, I’ve had the same experiences, where both as an athlete and as a performer, times that I felt the worst I did the best, and vice versa. But it’s not that it’s not a hundred percent correlated that way or causal that way. But suffice it to say the idea that there’s a particular way you need to think, because it’s thinking that determines who wins. It’s effortless to demonstrate that that’s not true, by just people’s actual experience, the actual data, and yet people still hold onto it. The whole 10,000-hour idea that you can become an expert, takes 10,000 hours to become an expert in things. The moment I heard that, I knew it was wrong, because as a gymnast and as a sprinter, there’s no gymnast or sprinter in history who’s ever put in 10,000 hours. You just can’t.

Nick St. Louis:

It’s not physically possible.

Steven Sashen:

Right. And the question that immediately occurred to me or that immediately hit me is the kind of person who’s willing and wants to spend 10,000 hours on something is different than the person who doesn’t. And you can’t force someone to spend 10,000 hours and turn them into, fill in the blank. Les Paul, Michelangelo, Michael Jordan, pick your favorite Michael. Doesn’t really matter.

Nick St. Louis:

I agree.

Steven Sashen:

Anyway, this all goes back to our fundamental thing of if people learn to think more clearly, their lives could be so much better in certain ways, but admittedly not in others. I mean, finding these comforting thoughts, like there is someone looking out for me. It’s a really comforting thought if you can maintain it.

Nick St. Louis:

But in the end, it’s better. Once you learn to see discomfort as not necessarily a bad thing and something that is kind of an internal signal to be like, okay, I have work to do. Guess what? The work never ends, and you have to find joy in the work instead of trying to think that everything’s rainbows, because it ends up not being the case.

Steven Sashen:

Somebody said to the physicist, Richard Feynman, “I’d hate to be you, because you just see everything as just like atoms and molecules. There’s no amazement.”

He says, “Are you kidding? I can’t look at one of these and still take a drink out of it, because it’s so unbelievably incredible.” Let’s start with a simple thing. These are solid things that you can see through. What?

Nick St. Louis:

Yeah, I know. The world is incredible and you can drive yourself crazy trying to make sense of it, or you can just embrace that it’s a form of magic, and just embrace the fact that you’re in a magical world and it’s great.

Steven Sashen:

The very fact… Look, I’m going to start crying. The very fact that we can have a conversation with another human being, whether it’s over a computer or not, I mean, this is an amazing, amazing world. Even if it didn’t have chocolate in, it would be a very amazing place.

Nick St. Louis:

I’m going to bring you some good chocolate next time I see you, because clearly I got to make sure I got the right kind, so I might have to do some research.

Steven Sashen:

As long as it doesn’t have the word milk in it, you got a good start.

Nick St. Louis:

Okay, that’s good. I can handle that. So Steven, thank you for doing this. I look forward to the next one. People listening, whether you enjoyed it or not, thanks for listening if you got to hear, and you’ll see us again at some point. And yeah, have a good week, Steven.

Steven Sashen:

Cheers. Live life feet first.

Nick St. Louis:

See you. Will do.

Steven Sashen:

I hope you enjoyed my little rant with Nick and probably to be doing more of those. Go visit Nick at www.thefootcollective.com and of course, come visit us at www.jointhemovementmovement.com. You’ll find previous episodes and ways to interact with us. As always, please like and share, and review and give us a thumbs up as appropriate, and follow us in all the various places you can, because we are creating this movement about natural movement and you are the one who makes it move. Oh, and if you have any questions or suggestions, people you think should be on the show, whatever you can think of, drop me an email, move@jointhemovementmovement.com. So until our next episode, go out. Have fun and live life feet first.

Intro/Outro:

You’ve been listening to the Movement Movement Podcast with host Steven Sashen. Remember to join the tribe and subscribe at Jointhemovementmovement.com.

Get Fit and Strong Without a Gym

marketdomination — Wed, 09 Oct 2024 00:00:55 +0000

Al Kavadlo began his fitness journey in 1992 at the age of 13, and a decade later, he launched his career in the fitness industry. In 2009, Al started his blog and YouTube channel, which quickly gained traction, leading to a book deal with Dragon Door Publications.

His first book with Dragon Door, Raising The Bar, was released in 2012, followed by several more titles, including Get Strong, a collaboration with his brother Danny Kavadlo. Al is also recognized for his appearance in Dragon Door’s popular Convict Conditioning series.

In addition to his work with Dragon Door, Al has self-published several titles, available at FortifyTraining.com. To date, his books and programs have sold over a million copies worldwide.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Al Kavadlo about getting fit and strong without a gym.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How bodyweight training can calisthenics offer benefits in fitness programs.

– Why variations in calisthenics exercises increase engagement and creativity.

– How effective coaching involves listening, guiding, and allowing for rest.

– Why transitioning to minimalist footwear gradually improves foot health.

– How learning new movement patterns requires patience and integration time.

Connect with Al:

Guest Contact Info

Links Mentioned:
alkavadlo.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

Research is really clear for runners, walkers, hikers, getting stronger is better, and now you can’t go to the gym, but you might want to go back to the gym. I’m going to try and talk you out of that right now, so is my guest, who I’m going to introduce in just a second. But first, I’m Steven Sashen from xeroshoes.com, your host for The MOVEMENT Movement podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a healthy, happy, strong body. Starting with the feet first, because those things are your foundation. We’re going to break down the mythology, the propaganda, sometimes the outright lies that you’ve been told about what it takes to walk, to run, to hike, to do yoga, to do CrossFit, to do pretty much whatever you want to do and to do it enjoyably efficiently. And did I mention enjoyably? Because that’s the most important part. If you’re not having fun, do something different till you are.

We call it The MOVEMENT Movement podcast because we’re creating a movement about natural movement. We want to make natural movement or actually help people rediscover that natural movement is the obvious, better, healthy choice, the way we think of natural food. It’s a movement because that involves you spreading the word about this whole idea. What that means is go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. You’ll find all the previous episodes, you’ll find all the places you can interact with this podcast on YouTube and Facebook and Instagram and pretty much everywhere you can think of. And, of course, like and share and give us a thumbs up and hit the bell on YouTube. You know how to do it. In fact, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. It’s a really simple message.

So, let’s get started. I am really, really thrilled and there’s a better word. I can’t believe it’s taken us this long until I’m happy to introduce Al Kavadlo. Al, hey man, how are you?

Al Kavadlo:

Hey, hey. I know. It’s been a long time coming.

Steven Sashen:

It has been.

Al Kavadlo:

I think I might be the longest running Xero Hero that there is. I’ve been a brand ambassador pretty much since day one with you guys.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I think for a while it felt like you were practically living with us in the very early days, so it’s been a treat. Before we jump into that though, since I gave you no introduction other than your name, tell people who the hell you are and why you’re here.

Al Kavadlo:

Well, I’ll try to be as quick and concise as possible.

Steven Sashen:

Good luck with that.

Al Kavadlo:

I’ve been a personal trainer and a fitness expert for about 20 years. And my-

Steven Sashen:

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Get rid of the air quotes, man. I would say that you have rightly earned that title and appropriately earned that title.

Al Kavadlo:

I appreciate that.

Steven Sashen:

Many people haven’t. So ignoring that, so definite fitness expert, not air quotes.

Al Kavadlo:

I don’t know how long I’ve been an expert for, but I’ve been doing it as a career-

Steven Sashen:

There you go.

Al Kavadlo:

… for about 20 years. I’ve written some books and I’ve done some things. My whole niche and message is essentially what you alluded to earlier, that you don’t really need a gym to get strong and get in shape. You can just use your own body weight and very simple equipment, like a pull-up bar or a pair of gymnastics rings or parallel bars or the floor beneath your feet, and still get a great workout. So I’ve been teaching people how to get strong using calisthenics for a long time. Looks like you mentioned also earlier, now body weight training is more viable than ever because a lot of gyms are not operating and even ones that are are at limited capacity. People are just a little bit more hesitant about going to a gym in general. And it’s been a good thing for the calisthenics community in some ways.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I know that home fitness equipment has just gone through the roof in the last couple of months. Have you seen a similar thing with people really reaching out to try to find a less expensive, more available alternative?

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah. I mean, I’ve had been doing books on body weight training since … I put out my first one in 2010.

Steven Sashen:

Wow.

Al Kavadlo:

So I’ve done eight books over the course of the decade, but I did see an uptick in sales for everything when this started because people suddenly started looking for resources about how to do body weight training. And I was kind of ahead of the game in a sense. A lot of people have said about everything that’s happened this year, that it’s just kind of made things that were inevitable happen faster.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Al Kavadlo:

And I think that what’s going on in the fitness industry is a good example of that.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I love the whole idea that people are kind of taking it on as their own personal project rather than just doing something. I mean, people like simple answers, and sometimes they’ll join gyms because they think they’re going to find a simple answer, which is not the case, and it’s often just not even valid because what works for this person is not necessarily going to work for you. So I love that people are figuring it out.

Al Kavadlo:

To be clear, I don’t really have anything against gyms. I’ve trained people at gyms, especially when it’s cold out, you can’t always be in the park.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah.

Al Kavadlo:

I mean, I want gyms to be able to reopen. In New York, they’re still all shut. I have a lot of friends that are trainers and gym owners, and I want those people to be able to get back to doing what they love to do. Anything that supports someone staying on track with their fitness goals, whether they’re more motivated by going to the gym or more motivated by not going to the gym. There’s something for everybody here. I’ve been just trying to offer an alternative for a long time, and now that alternative is becoming sort of one of the only choices.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I guess let me phrase it or frame it a little differently. What I find really interesting is that people are recognizing there’s more to being fit or getting strong than going to a gym because … So I mean, for example, there’s a $400 piece of equipment that I’m looking to buy, and they have them in very few gyms. I found one that’s on sale. To be totally transparent, not that it’s a secret, it’s a reverse hyper machine. So I’ve got a compromised spine and I’m a sprinter, so reverse hyper is really good for (a), helping with some traction on the spine, and (b), building glute and hamstring strength. And there’s really very few things that can work that way.

But more importantly, what I’m doing around the idea of using that reverse hyper is a whole bunch of body weight stuff. I do a bunch of crazy high box jumps and one legged squats in various ways and things that are also relevant for sprinting that I don’t need a gym for. But if I were going to a gym, and if I were that kind of person, I have this arsenal of here’s the machines that make the most sense, here’s the body weight stuff that makes the most sense for what I’m doing, for who I am. That’s the part that I find really interesting, because I’m hearing people talk about that online as well.

Al Kavadlo:

There are ways to do a similar sort of movement pattern without using that exact apparatus. I’m sure you can see some of them, like back bridge variations and things like that.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Well, sadly, I can’t do bridge stuff because I got a compromised spine. For the fun of it, I have a grade 2 L5-S1 spondy, so anything that’s bridging makes it so that I can’t feel my legs. So that’s not good, I’m told.

Al Kavadlo:

Even like shoulders on the ground, feet flat, just like a hip up and down a little bit.

Steven Sashen:

As long as I’m not doing any lumbar hyperextension, I’m okay. So I can do glute bridges, and I do those.

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about.

Steven Sashen:

But as a Masters All-American sprinter, I could do glute bridges all day long and-

Al Kavadlo:

Sure. Even on one leg, they’re probably still relatively easy for you.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. It’s too simple. I mean, I definitely need the extra resistance. Let me back up just for the fun of it. I’m going to put you on the spot. Since this is The MOVEMENT Movement podcast, can you think of any movement thing that you would want to share with humans that they could try and experiment or feel right now, I don’t know, just for the hell of it, just for the fun of it?

Al Kavadlo:

The exercise we were just talking about is a really good one for runners who are inexperienced in that type of strength training, just to lay on your back, bend your knees, put your feet flat on the floor, a couple inches from your butt, and push your hips up into the air. All your weight will be on your feet and your shoulders, and you’re basically trying to make a straight line from your knees to your shoulders. Because you don’t want to arch your back like you were saying before.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Al Kavadlo:

You don’t want to be sagging too low either. You want your abs engaged, you want your glutes engaged, you want your hamstrings engaged. You’ll feel your quads too, and maybe even your upper back and your spinal muscles helping get up there. And those are muscles that are so important to runners that sometimes don’t get hit as well, even if you’re doing things like squats.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Al Kavadlo:

You might not be getting as much glute and low back activation as you can with a hip bridge like that. And then if that’s easy for you, try it with one leg in the air and try it with the other leg in the air.

Steven Sashen:

I’m trying to think for people who may be sitting down, is there a seated version, maybe something isometric or something?

Al Kavadlo:

I hope if they’re sitting down, they can get up and they got four feet of floor next to them. That’s all-

Steven Sashen:

I know.

Al Kavadlo:

You really involve a lot of equipment there, Steven. It’s just the floor.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, it’s not that. Sometimes, I mean, I don’t know how much people are driving now, but sometimes people are listening to this in a car. There’s every now and then I try to think of what can you do in a car, or I think of isometric-

Al Kavadlo:

And that you have to keep looking at the road also, so you can’t do neck things. Neck circles isn’t going to work in a car. Because that’s what I was going to say if you’re sitting at a computer, you can do some neck circles, at least open that up a little bit. That sort of thing.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a funny thing-

Al Kavadlo:

I think when you’re driving, you should be focused on driving. You maybe shouldn’t be trying to get a workout in the car.

Steven Sashen:

Come on, Al. You’re at a stoplight. You got 20 seconds to kill.

Al Kavadlo:

Well, if you’re at a stoplight and you know that it’s not going to change for a little bit, then you can maybe stretch your neck up a little bit, stretch it to the side.

Steven Sashen:

So I want to back up and talk about your history, because my memory is that body weight and calisthenics. The whole sort of calisthenics, oh boy, I got so many thoughts about this. Let me start with this one actually. The calisthenic and street fitness movement has evolved dramatically in the last five, 10 years. What have you seen? How did you get here and what have you seen? How has it evolved and changed?

Al Kavadlo:

I was a trainer at a gym at the beginning of my career, a big box gym, doing a lot of conventional workouts with people, weight training and machines and things like that. And I always did basic calisthenics, push-ups, pull-ups, body weights, squats, dips. Along with a lot of other people at the same time, just a collective unconscious thing started arising where people started getting more into esoteric calisthenics. And I started seeing things like the one-legged pistol squat or a muscle-up or human flag, and being really intrigued by these things, and little by little, wanting to learn more of them. And I found myself in my own workouts, and also with my clients, kind of gradually getting away from doing conventional workouts and getting more into esoteric body weight stuff, and finding that, like you were alluding to earlier, that stuff works as well, or in some cases, better for some people than a lot of the conventional gym workouts.

This was around the time when YouTube was starting to become somewhat of a viable thing. Somebody happened to suggest to me, “Hey, maybe throw some videos up on YouTube.” It was certainly not … Nowadays, I feel like a lot of people get into posting online with an expectation of, “Okay, I’m trying to do this to reach as many people as possible.” There’s an awareness that the internet can make you a star of sorts.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Al Kavadlo:

When I started doing this, the internet was so new, it was just kind of like, “Let me just throw these videos up there. What the heck?” And then little by little over time, as was happening with a lot of other calisthenics people, more and more people started to see this stuff and get interested in it. And I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to write some books and make some online programs and put a lot of stuff out there before there was quite as much saturation in the market.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Al Kavadlo:

Just to a certain extent is true for your brand also, there’s a lot more people making barefoot shoes now than there were 10 years ago.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Al Kavadlo:

You had a little bit of a head start on some of that.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. My favorite is the people who say, “I was looking for something kind of like this and I couldn’t find it,” and then I made this thing and it’s an exact copy of something that we’ve done. And then I look in the database and saw they bought our product three years before they did that. But I’m cool with as many people doing this as possible because we’re just trying to raise awareness.

Al Kavadlo:

Absolutely. That’s exactly how I feel about bodyweight training. I don’t feel threatened in any way by anyone else in the field who’s doing this, who’s succeeding. If anything, it’s great because it pushes more of the door open for the message to reach more people.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and that’s one of the things that I alluded to before that I find really interesting, I’m curious of your thoughts, is it seems like there’s almost this split in the body weight and calisthenic community where there’s the street fitness thing, which is guys doing unbelievably insane stuff. I mean, look, I’m a former All-American gymnast from 40 years ago, and back then the number of guys who could do a planche was, you could count them on two hands. Now, if you can’t do a planche, you can’t get into the club. So there’s the crazy, crazy elite-

Al Kavadlo:

I think it’s the Planche Club at least.

Steven Sashen:

There’s definitely a Planche Club. For people who don’t know a planche, imagine doing a pushup and then having your feet off the ground. So it’s just your hands on the ground and then your body is parallel to the ground. It’s crazy. So there’s this extreme version and then there’s what normal humans could, should, would be doing. Talk about where you are in that world or what you’ve seen as well.

Al Kavadlo:

I’m somewhere more toward I guess the beginner-intermediate end of the spectrum in terms of who my target audience is, because I’m looking to inspire people who are relatively new to fitness or who are relatively new to calisthenics. Sometimes it’s nice to show somebody an advanced move, like a planche or a human flag, just so they get a glimpse of what’s possible eventually. But the programs that I write for the most part are not geared towards people who want to learn a planche or a human flag. I do have one book called Street Workout, which really is like an encyclopedia. It has everything from the basic stuff up to the really advanced stuff included in it. So that’s sort of like the catch-all book.

But my best-selling programs are the ones that are intended for people who are working towards doing better pushups, maybe doing a one-legged squat, maybe doing multiple pull-ups, maybe a muscle-up is a reach move for people. Although like you said, in the street workout, in that high-level world, of course you could do a muscle-up. You’ve got to be able to do 10 muscle-ups to even hang with some of those guys.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Al Kavadlo:

But it’s the same thing in the world of running, right? I mean, most people who run a marathon aren’t running a two-and-half-hour marathon. They’re running a four-hour marathon, a five-hour marathon. The elites obviously are inspiring a lot more people to get into it, but those people are never going to be performing at that level. And that’s okay.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I was just thinking about this. Well, if we talk about, what’s the word I’m looking for, impressive strength moves, impressive bodyweight things. I mean, you mentioned the human flag. We talked about planches, one-legged squats. If you had to think of the one that people might be able to master the quickest, that’s going to be the best bang-for-the-buck-for-party trick, what would you put on that list?

Al Kavadlo:

The easiest move to do that looks the most impressive is basically what we’re-

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Al Kavadlo:

I don’t know. I mean, there’s really nothing that I would say is easy, that is going to impress anyone that much. But there are certainly things easier than a planche or a human flag, like an L-sit is a good intermediate skill, that I think if you can pop on the floor. That’s something that I’m sure you remember from your gymnast days. Hold yourself up and put your legs out on an L and hold that for a few seconds. I think that’s a pretty cool move that’s attainable for most people with a little bit of practice and training.

Steven Sashen:

I’m putting them in order in my mind as well.

Al Kavadlo:

Maybe an elbow lever, which looks kind like a planche but your arms are bent and you’re resting your elbows on your body. That’s certainly … To someone who doesn’t know the difference between a planche and an elbow lever, they might look equally impressive, but that’s an easier way to do it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that’s a good one. That’s actually a good catch. For people who aren’t watching to visualize this, so again, imagine that you lie flat on the ground, this is not how you get there, but the hell of it, and you put your palms on the ground, your fingers are going to be pointing towards your toes, and then squeeze your arms into your body as much as you can. So basically your elbows are practically in your stomach, and then you’re going to have then be parallel to the ground. So you’re more balancing than anything else.

Al Kavadlo:

The leverage of the elbows is what supports you.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly.

Al Kavadlo:

That’s elbow lever.

Steven Sashen:

Now that I think of it, that’s actually the most impressive thing I can think of, is the easiest thing involves a partner, which is a leveraged planche. So this is one, again, I’m describing for people listening or watching, where you get in a push-up position and then your partner faces your feet and sits on your shoulders and hooks their feet under your thighs and slowly leans back. If you get it just right with the right partner, it’s not a lot of strength, it’s just a lot of balance, but it looks like you’re in Cirque du Soleil.

Al Kavadlo:

That’s the key to that stuff with the partners, is you have to really know each other and be able to counter each other. Because if one person goes too quick, then they’re going to drag the other person along the other way. But like you said, when you’re able to get the scales evenly, that’s the key to all those moves.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s a super impressive one. So after elbow lever, because I was flashing back, as gymnasts, we all learned how to do human flags, which is just super, super fun, and it doesn’t strike me as like … I’m trying to think of which was harder for me, human flag or one-legged pistol squat. But either of those, if someone’s going to try and really do good party tricks, those would be my top two for knock those out. But here’s a course.

Al Kavadlo:

The thing about a flag, there has to be something to do it on. If you don’t have a good pole or a good surface to grab.

Steven Sashen:

There’s always-

Al Kavadlo:

Whereas a pistol squat or a handstand or whatever, you got a little floor space, boom, you can do it.

Steven Sashen:

That’s true. That’s a good point. When I was in New York and I was doing some acting for a living, I had a card that I gave as kind of like a business card. That was me doing a flag, but the way the picture was taken is, it just looked like I was hanging vertically. And then you have to suddenly realize that the buildings were facing the wrong way. And then people would turn the card and go, “What the? Wait, is that a camera trick?” It’s like, “No, no.” And then I would just go do it. They’d get very impressed. That made me think of-

Al Kavadlo:

Human flag always gets attention. That’s for sure.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a good one. So there’s another thing about calisthenics. I did something during COVID, like the beginnings of COVID, where I was working really hard and just needing to just do something with my body. And I got into a push-up and a pull-up challenge. What was really interesting in both of those was learning so many variations of each exercise. I think that a lot of people, they think of push-ups as a single thing or pull-ups or chin-ups as a single thing, and not realizing there’s so many other variations that some are easier than others, some are harder than others. There are some that are way more interesting than others, more challenge. Can you just give people an intro to the width and breadth of what are seemingly simple exercises and things they might be able to try?

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah. The thing with bodyweight training that’s essentially different than weight training at the gym is that instead of changing the weight on a barbell or a kettlebell or a dumbbell and doing the exact same movement pattern, you can alter little things about the leverage of the exercise itself to make it harder or to make it less difficult. So like a push-up, for example, I think the easiest way to illustrate this point is just to think of a push-up where your feet are elevated on a surface higher than in your hands, as opposed to one where they’re both on the floor. When your feet are higher, you’re offsetting the weight, you’re putting more of it in your hands, you’re making it feel like the equivalent of doing a bench press with more weight. But you’re doing that by altering the movement slightly. And, of course, the opposite is true too. If you elevate your hands, now you’ve made the push-up less difficult, you have less weight loaded into your hands.

And then beyond that, obviously taking an arm off the ground completely and doing a one-arm push-up is going to be even harder than a feet-elevated one. And there’s steps and increments in between. And that’s true for everything. It’s true for a squat. It’s true for a pull-up. It’s true for a planche even. There’s guys out there who are doing planches on their fingertips on one hand. It’s like the spectrum of fitness is so far-reaching and feel like it keeps expanding in both directions as people keep breaking new records and getting fitter. On the other side of things, obesity is getting more out of control, and it’s just so weird that those things coexist at the same time. But here we are.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that’s a good point. Well, one of the things that I really appreciate about your books, some different than others obviously, and you can talk about this in a bit, is that you do give both the width and breadth or the depth and breadth, if you will, for individual exercise. So you have a bunch of push-up variations, a bunch of pull-up variations, often graded here are the easier ones, here are the harder ones. And I would just encourage people, whether they’re finding your books or finding you online, to play around with these because it really, for me, it’s been so much fun to have this bigger, more arrows in my quiver, if you will.

So like when I go out on the track on the weekends and I want to do something, just some strength training before or after, usually after, just to sit around going, “What do I want to work on today? What’s my favorite one today? Do I want to do some wide grip push-up thing? Do I want to do chin-ups? Do I want to do pull-ups? Do I want to do something?” I mean, just all these different options that frankly I just didn’t have in my brain before. And the fun part, the fun quotient is elevated by having more opportunities and more options.

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah, I mean that’s what you said at the beginning of this podcast, is if you’re not having fun doing it, then what’s the point, right? I think that that’s a big part of what’s made calisthenics popular and why I like it, is it does have that playful element to it, and that element of just, like you said, trying things out like a practice, it’s not quite as rigid as some other forms of strength training. I think for people like you and myself, we like to have a little bit more freedom to experiment and have a little more creative input into our own workouts.

Steven Sashen:

I just had a flashback to when I was in high school and was doing a lot of exercise stuff, obviously for gymnastics. In fact, so much of the body weight and calisthenics stuff is what gymnasts have been doing for ages because they don’t typically go into the weight room very much.

Al Kavadlo:

Right. Those guys are pretty darn strong.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, absolutely. One of the push-up variations that you just reminded me of is, we used to do chair push-up so you’re three chairs, one for your feet, one for each hand, and you just get a nice wide stance, if you will, for your hands. So you’re getting really, really deep. We used to just do those all day every day. Oh, my god. Sorry, I just had the bigger memory. You’re going to love this.

My first day of junior high school, our gymnastics coach hands the six or seven of us who decided we were going to try gymnastics a sheet of 10 to the inch graph paper. He says every one of those squares is 10 push-ups. Whoever fills out the sheet front and back first wins a coke. We were a bunch of competitive 13-year-olds, and we’d come in the morning, it’s like, “How many push-ups did you do yesterday?” “200.” “Oh man, I only did 150.” And then we’d drop and do 50 more. Then the other guy would do 50, and then we would do 50. I mean, we got to the point where we were doing, not at one time, but over the course of a day, a thousand push-ups a day just to beat the other guy.

Al Kavadlo:

Wow. Was it really about the soda then at that point? Or it was more about the ego thing?

Steven Sashen:

It was all about the ego thing. It was all to see … It was the competitive thing. I actually met a young man at a high school track meet, and he said he wanted to be a college decathlete. I told him this story of we were doing a thousand push-ups a day. He goes, “I can’t do a thousand push-ups a day.” I said, “Yeah, we couldn’t either when we started.” I was just waiting to see if he was going to drop and do 50, but he just kind of got depressed. And I went, “Oh, that’s not the right attitude to have.”

Al Kavadlo:

It’s just amazing what the human body can get conditioned to. Ultra running, for example, I remember when that was a new thing, and not that long ago when I was like, “What? Somebody ran a hundred miles? That’s amazing.” And it still blows my mind because I’ve never run a distance anywhere near that much. But now, lots of people run a hundred miles. It’s not as much of a shocking thing anymore, at least if you’re aware of that community.

Steven Sashen:

Well, you know another thing that’s evolved a lot that is no longer shocking it used to be? It’s all over you.

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah, yeah, it’s true. I remember when I first saw the back of Guns N’ Roses Appetite for Destruction when I was a kid, and they had three tattoos. Oh, my god, those guys are such badass tattoos. And I have quite a few more than that myself now, as you probably noticed. So yeah, standards just change over time.

Steven Sashen:

What was your first tattoo?

Al Kavadlo:

The first one I got was this tiger right here on my shoulder.

Steven Sashen:

Got it. So what inspired that?

Al Kavadlo:

You can see how much faded it is compared to this one that’s about, I don’t know, 20 years more recent, right underneath it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I am art-free and ink-free at the moment, but people who really make that kind of commitment, have you gotten anything where you’ve just gone, “Oh, no”?

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah, there’s a couple that didn’t come out as good as I was hoping they might or that maybe didn’t age as well as others, but that’s life. One of the things I like about tattoos is you have to live with them. I mean, I know people get tattoos removed, but generally they’re permanent. I feel like so much of life, people always wanted to take back things, and it’s okay to be able to change your mind, it’s good to be able to evolve, but sometimes you just have to live with having made a bad decision, and that makes you a better person. So I have a few tattoos that I feel like they did that for me.

Steven Sashen:

What? Any ex-girlfriend names?

Al Kavadlo:

Thankfully no names, thankfully no names.

Steven Sashen:

What about actually current wife and child names?

Al Kavadlo:

I do not have either of their names. Grace and I have a matching tattoo. We both got this diamond right here in the same spot for our first year wedding anniversary.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, that’s splendid.

Al Kavadlo:

That’s our tattoo for each other.

Steven Sashen:

And to let people know, so your wife Grace is also a major body weight and calisthenic fitness person. What’s it like having this in the family? And what are your thoughts about now that you have a child? I mean, we don’t have kids, but I kept thinking, boy, if I had kids, I’d be a dangerous parent because as a gymnast, I mean I did a lot of crazy, crazy crap, and there’s no way I would ever not have my child do things that made me look safe.

Al Kavadlo:

Well, I think that maybe some mainstream parents would have the impression that you were a dangerous parent, but I don’t think you would be a dangerous parent at all because I know you’re a thoughtful person who, even though you like to push boundaries, you’re aware that they exist.

Steven Sashen:

I mean dangerous, like one day we’re at a restaurant and there’s some kids jumping up and down on the bench seats of the restaurant and the parents are yelling, “Stop doing that,” and I was thinking, if it was me, I would’ve go, “Stop doing that. Springs are better on this bench. You get more altitude over here.”

Al Kavadlo:

Grace and I encourage our kid to exercise a lot. We take her to the playground pretty much every day that it’s nice out. She’s basically made a playground at the home, just climbing on everything and going up and down all the time. We want her to be physically active. We encourage that. But at the same time, when you are out at a public space and a kid is doing things that are not socially okay, you do have to sometimes-

Steven Sashen:

Well, that’s another one.

Al Kavadlo:

Because I don’t love to be a disciplinarian either. That’s definitely been a challenge for me as a parent, because I’ve always, as a trainer, part of what I think has made me unique and stand out is that I’m not a disciplinary type of trainer. A lot of people, I think especially when I got started in the business, the idea of a trainer or a coach was that they were going to be a drill sergeant. They were going to be a hard person on you. I always did the opposite and had success with that method. So I’m trying to be a gentle parent, but sometimes you got to lay the smack down.

Steven Sashen:

How have you dealt with what has become sadly a fitness mantra of no pain, no gain?

Al Kavadlo:

Well, by doing exactly what I was just alluding to a minute ago, trying to be the antithesis of that. So I’m a big believer in the old cliche to be the change you want to see. So if you feel like, “Oh, why aren’t more people doing this?” then you should be the person to do that. So that’s kind of how I fell into everything that I’ve done in my career.

Steven Sashen:

If somebody comes to you or you see that they definitely have that attitude that they’ve got to be enduring something unpleasant to get something they think they want, how do you work with them about that?

Al Kavadlo:

It depends a lot on the individual. I think something that makes for a successful coach is not necessarily having stock go-to things, but being prepared to listen to the person and hear them out. And then based on what they told you, use your experience to guide them in the direction as gently as possible. I think one of the worst things you can do as a coach or as a parent or just as someone in general who’s trying to convince anyone of anything is flat out tell them that they’re wrong. You got to listen to people and hear them out and find areas of common ground where you agree. And then and only then are you able to maybe gently make a suggestion. Even when somebody comes to you asking for your guidance, if you’re not gentle about how you deliver it, they’re not going to be receptive to it.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a tricky thing on my-

Al Kavadlo:

Unless they want a drill sergeant, like some people do. So I don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, some people like that. It’s a tricky thing on my end of the equation because on the one hand, there’s plenty of evidence that modern athletic footwear is fundamentally wrong. So on the one hand, we want to really call it out and be somewhat confrontational.

Al Kavadlo:

And that works. People respond to that. I don’t think-

Steven Sashen:

Some people do.

Al Kavadlo:

… that they don’t. Especially in an advertising sort of setting, if you’re trying to catch someone’s attention quickly and on the web, there’s so much vying for your attention all the time. So I was referring more to if I’m actually working with somebody in person one-on-one.

Steven Sashen:

No, but my point is that what you’re saying is still true. It’s an interesting balancing act. You’re right, I mean to be confrontational and controversial has value. It also comes with the side dish of people are going to tell you you have your head up your butt and then you have to deal with that, so you’re cultivating a certain kind of relationship that is both good and bad. The flip side is, I’m thinking about, there’s a Facebook group called Running Shoe Geeks, and somebody posted a picture of one of our shoes and was raving about it, and a number of people are like, “If I ran in those, I’d break my ankles, my hamstrings would explode, my mortgage rate would go up. I’d get Ebola,” whatever it was, and finally-

Al Kavadlo:

That’s stupid hearing that since the brand began from runners, and people just don’t get it.

Steven Sashen:

But again, but the thing that was interesting with what I did is I jumped in, I said, “Look, if you want to run in the shoes that you currently have, go for it. I’m not going to tell you not to. But when you take them off at the end of the day or at the end of your run, you might want to … If you just want something for active recovery to let your feet bend and move and flex and feel and get some circulation going, or if you want to just have something comfortable to relax in or something that … There’s a study from Sarah Ridge at BYU that shows if you just walk in minimalist footwear, you can build foot strength just like doing an actual foot exercise program. If any of that sounds interesting, just try these for some casual, use when you’re not running.”

And it just ended the conversation. People had no response to that because, like you said, in that way, I was trying to meet them where they were. I mean, sometimes I half jokingly say, we’re the heroin of footwear because I know that if they start doing that, then they’re going to go, “Yeah, maybe I’ll try going for a little run and see what happens.” The next thing they know, they’ll-

Al Kavadlo:

Right. Once you have them wearing it at all, then yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, there’s no turning back. I mean, once you go from having your toes not squeezed together, you never want to go back to squeezing them together.

Al Kavadlo:

I think the other thing that happens is, people are so deconditioned that they try to do too much too quickly, and this happens a lot in strength training and calisthenics too. I hear the same type of stuff. People see me doing human play like, “Oh, if I did that, my shoulder would pop out.”

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Al Kavadlo:

It’s like, “Well, you’re probably right. It would, but if you built yourself up to it gradually, your shoulders would be so strong that they could do it and they wouldn’t pop out.” People who are used to running in something that has a tremendous amount of conditioning and have never given their feet the chance to develop, if they suddenly try to go out for a five mile or a pair of Xero Shoes on day one, it is going to jack them up.

Steven Sashen:

Which nobody-

Al Kavadlo:

But that’s not the fault of the shoe.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Nobody would suggest that.

Al Kavadlo:

Right.

Steven Sashen:

I mean, we hear it every now and then. Where we hear it from most is people who put on shoes like ours, and they’re so happy, they’re so comfortable. They go for a little run and they go, “This is great,” and then they just keep going. During the course of that run, they get tired and their form reverts back to something that’s not necessarily good. I always say calf pain, achilles pain, knee pain, or any kind of pain, totally optional. You don’t have to have any of it if you wear-

Al Kavadlo:

I remember when I first got into, even before I switched to wearing minimalist shoes, when I just changed my running style and started running more toward my forefoot, I couldn’t believe how sore my calves were. I had that same feeling of like, “Oh my god, I hurt myself.” And then two days later, they felt fine. I tried it again. I’m like, “Actually, this does kind of feel better.” And then they were never really that sore ever again after that.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Al Kavadlo:

But I think a lot of people have that one first shock to their system. They’re like, “Whoa, I’m not doing this.” But the body just has to adapt to that.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. There’s two things that I find really interesting, and I’m putting air quotes around interesting. I find it kind of annoying. One is what you just said, is people will do something and they do a little too much too soon. They have not the right form that allows them to not have any of these little aches and pains that will go away. And their first reaction, “Oh, see, this doesn’t work because look, I’m feeling a little sore,” when it’s just like you said, if you just slow down, chill out, let yourself build up slowly over time, it can all be fine.

The other one is, oh, forgetting that the process of learning something new, like learning to run where you’re not overstriding a heel or striking it, and instead being a four-foot lander with your feet underneath your body, that if you’re learning a new movement pattern, it’s going to take a little time. And the way it works is, at first you try it and it’s going to feel weird, and then you’re going to rest, and it’s during the resting period where your brain integrates these new patterns. So then a couple of days later, you try again and you’re a little better, but that frustration is not a sign that it’s hard, you should stop. It’s a sign that your brain is trying to lay down new neural pathways that when you rest, will actually get integrated, and people forget that process of learning for, I’m thinking about running, but I imagine it’s similar for what you do as well.

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah. I actually just had a conversation with a client of mine somewhat recently where I was kind of explaining that. This is a guy who runs a contracting business, and I was saying to him, “If you have your workers working all day and then you have them come back the next day and expect them to work all day, by the third day, they need a day off or they’re not going to be efficient anymore.” And he was somebody who had a little bit of that no pain, no game mentality. I was telling him, I was like, “You have to take some rest.”

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Al Kavadlo:

Because he was just wanting to train hard day after day after day and was asking me, “Oh, why am I sore? Why does my shoulder hurt?” I was like, “This is why your shoulder hurts, man.” So I think that explaining it to him in a way that related to his world helped him understand it, and hopefully he is going to find that balance a little bit more.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and you just reminded me of a thing that I’ve been very aware of of late, that I’m curious what your experience has been both personally and professionally, at 58 and change right now, the most annoying thing is how long it takes for me to recover. There’s so much that I want to do that my brain thinks I can do that my body goes, “Oh, no, no, no, you’re grossly mistaken.” And that’s been very tricky to adjust to. I mean, early on when I got back into sprinting, it took me maybe two years until I learned that when I have the thought, “Let me just do one more,” that’s when I need to stop and not do that one more.

Al Kavadlo:

It’s like drinking, right?

Steven Sashen:

Say it again?

Al Kavadlo:

It’s like drinking.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly.

Al Kavadlo:

Let me just have one more drink, then it’s all over.

Steven Sashen:

Always a bad thought, especially if a drink has an umbrella in it or it doesn’t taste like anything. I’ll never forget the first time someone gave me a Long Island iced tea and I didn’t know what it was. Holy smokes. I think I woke up in Utah. That was crazy. And I’m not even a drinker. It was just like, “Oh, this is very tasty.” Or an Alabama slammer, which is the fruit punch version of a Long Island iced tea. Those things are pure evil.

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah. To your earlier point, it’s definitely true that as you get older, you have to recover a little bit more, and it’s a hard thing to cope with when you were an athlete in your youth and you can train hard every single day, and you kind of got used to that to readjust your expectations of what your body can handle and to respect those limits, because when you’re young, you kind of do the opposite.

Steven Sashen:

Totally.

Al Kavadlo:

You keep pushing beyond when you want to stop, and your body can still recover from that sometimes.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, I have vivid memories of, we just had some big weightlifting session or something, and the next day, we’re gymnasts, we’re going to go work out, and just feeling so sore I could barely move. But the whole idea was just do a little stretching, a little whatever, just till the soreness doesn’t bother you. The idea of taking a rest didn’t exist in our minds. We just had to deal with or get over the soreness, and eventually it worked, but that is just not the way it works now. This just popped into my head. I was going to say it this way: There’s a bunch of older fitness guys that I know, I won’t mention them by name, who are very, let’s say, financially successful, who the way they have dealt with this is they’re all taking drugs and-

Al Kavadlo:

Testosterone.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, some variation of testosterone. Some of them will say that it’s just hormone replacement therapy and that they’re getting back to “normal” or a high level of normal despite the fact that they were asymptomatic before. Have you dealt with people who are wrestling with the idea of taking some sort of hormones or performance-enhancing products?

Al Kavadlo:

I really have very, very little experience with anything related to steroids. I’ve never taken them myself. I’ve never advised anyone on how to take them. If I had clients who were taking them, it wasn’t something that we discussed as part of our training. I don’t think that I have had clients who were taking them. So I feel like that’s more of a thing on the West Coast and where you are than it is here, but maybe I’m just taking-

Steven Sashen:

I don’t know how much it’s out here. I mean, here-

Al Kavadlo:

Maybe I just thought I was aware of it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, here-

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah, I’ve heard of older the guys doing that. Frankly, I just don’t know. I don’t have an opinion one way or the other. Maybe it is okay. I mean, I could certainly sympathize with the idea of being in my 60s or 70s and being like, “Damn, I used to perform differently, and I miss that and wanting something to be able to …” So yeah, I really don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

Well, yeah, and I haven’t either, but I mean, out here around Boulder, Colorado, it’s all free-range, organic testosterone. You’ve got to make sure that it’s fair trade, organic, free-range, gluten-free. The gluten-free testosterone is-

Al Kavadlo:

There you go. That’s good for you.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s way more expensive too, and not as satisfying, strangely. It’s like close to testosterone, but it’s not as good as real testosterone.

Al Kavadlo:

This is definitely outside of my wheelhouse.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah. No, you and me both.

Al Kavadlo:

But to your point about recovering slower, I mean, I’m 40 now, I’ll be 41 in a few weeks, I still consider myself relatively young, and I still think I have a lot of good years ahead of me, but I’m definitely not able to do what I could 10 years ago in terms of recovery. I can still perform just about at the same level, but then I just need to rest for two or three days afterwards.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s one of the reasons that-

Al Kavadlo:

I have rested for two days before.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, right. Well, it’s one of the reasons that I’m very deliberate about not going into a gymnastics gym because I know that I could throw all the moves that I was doing 40 years ago once.

Al Kavadlo:

Right. Then you’ll be hurt in the next day.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, it would be more than hurting the next day, guaranteed. It was also, actually, it’s funny, I did a standing backflip. This was two years ago, the last time I did one. Haven’t thrown one in a little while. This is going to sound hyperbolic when I say it, but I’d probably done a hundred thousand of them up until that point. There was a time where I was doing about a hundred a day, long story. But what was interesting is that when I did one this last time, I must-

Al Kavadlo:

You’re a guy who likes reputation, right?

Steven Sashen:

Well, no, it was actually-

Al Kavadlo:

You do a thousand push-ups. You’ve run thousands of miles. You do backflips.

Steven Sashen:

No, I don’t run thousand of miles.

Al Kavadlo:

Maybe over the course of your life, I’m sure you’ve run thousands, thousands of miles.

Steven Sashen:

Maybe. As a sprinting workout, a long sprinting workout, including warmups is maybe 2 or 3K, maybe.

Al Kavadlo:

Well, that’ll add up though, right? You’ve been doing it for a long time.

Steven Sashen:

But I haven’t been. I took a 30-year break. So it’s one of those like when the whole idea that 10,000 hours to master something came out, I immediately said, “Oh, that’s complete bullshit.” And my first two thoughts were, I don’t know one gymnast who’s ever put in 10,000 hours, you’d be dead by the time you did that, or one sprinter who’s ever been able to put in 10,000 hours. You just can’t do it. Your body’s not wired for that. If you do the math, I’ve done the math before, just imagine 10,000 hours over the career of a gymnast or a sprinter, which let’s say it’s 15 years.

Al Kavadlo:

Right. When they’re training at their peak intensity. We’re not counting warmups and things like that. Right?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just like real training. It is like you do the math and there’s no way. Especially when you see some of these gymnasts who are in their teens, they’ve been doing it for six, seven years, there’s no way they could put in 10,000 hours in six or seven years or 10 years.

Al Kavadlo:

I never took it that literally, just the idea that you have to practice something a lot to get good at it. But yeah, the idea of trying to quantify exactly how long it takes to master something is completely absurd. And then try to make that an umbrella thing that applies to all things that you can master is even more absurd. I think the general idea that it takes a lot of time and discipline to get good at things, that I’m on board with.

Steven Sashen:

And it takes one other thing, because the kind of person who’s going to put in 10,000 hours is a different kind of person than someone who is not. They’re interested in what that thing is, maybe they have a certain competitive thing or whatever else drives them. But this takes me back to thinking about someone starting with bodyweight training and calisthenics, is that, how do I want to put it, what’s going to drive you to keep doing something is, we’ve talked about it a couple of times, is that sort of the fun component and experiencing the progress, experiencing some benefits and seeing that there’s actual movement.

So this is why I love the idea, again, of having this bigger quiver full of arrows so that you can find the parts that are fun. There’s certain exercises and certain stretches even that I’m not good at, and I just don’t do them. For a while I thought that I had to, that if I couldn’t do it … I remember going to Bikram Yoga for a while, and there were a couple of stretches, man, I was horrible at, and I felt this sort of normative pressure to get good at them. And then after a while I went, “You know what? I’m just not good at those for whatever reason.” And then-

Al Kavadlo:

Having a competitive mindset about yoga in particular, but exercise in general, isn’t necessarily the healthiest thing unless you’re just kind of competing with yourself to try to get better in sort of a motivating way.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Al Kavadlo:

But yeah, I mean there’s definitely, when yoga was a thing, I don’t know if yoga classes exist anymore, but everyone is kind of looking around the room like, “Oh, Am I keeping up with them? Are they keeping up with me? What’s going on here?” I think I went to enough yoga where eventually I kind of got past that, but there’s a lot of that in the beginning, and it’s not the healthiest way to approach it. I say whatever gets in the door, I don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

There’s a comic friend of mine who does line, he says, “I’ve been doing yoga so long that I was doing it when it was called stretching.” Have you ever seen yoga competition?

Al Kavadlo:

I have. And the very idea of it fundamentally disturbs me.

Steven Sashen:

I thought the same thing.

Al Kavadlo:

It’s the ultimate hypocrisy.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Well, I thought the irony and paradox and contradiction of it was hysterical and crazy, but I wanted to go see what a yoga competition looked like.

Al Kavadlo:

I mean, it’s amazing what they can do. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

I mean, the competition part I didn’t get, but you start to … What’s really funny, it’s not like an Olympic sport where if you’re watching figure skating, you can’t figure out the difference between that triple axel and someone else’s triple axel. But you’re watching people do competitive yoga and you go, “Oh, yeah, that was better. The way you got in and out of that, that was definitely better than that other guy.” I mean, again, it’s silly, but it’s also super interesting, and it hasn’t taken off as a public popular thing. I don’t think that it will, and I’m not sure that it would be good if it did. But I’m going to say to people, if you haven’t looked up yoga competition on YouTube, do that. It’ll definitely, the entertainment factor is there.

Al Kavadlo:

But it’s also very subjective because someone might be watching the same thing you just were watching where you thought, “Oh, clearly this person did it better,” and they’re, “Actually, you know what? I liked it better when the other person did it.”

Steven Sashen:

That guy had his … on his head, the other guy had his butt an inch away from his head. So clearly, it has, to be honest.

Al Kavadlo:

But maybe he had a better smile, or some other player to it.

Steven Sashen:

I think that must be part of it too. The thing I noticed about some of the yoga competitions, freakishly good-looking people.

Al Kavadlo:

It’s a beauty contest essentially. It’s like bodybuilding, which is something else. As a kid, bodybuilding was part of what inspired me to want to get into fitness. When you really know what it’s about and you meet people who have been involved in that world, then you’re like, “Oh, that’s not really what I thought it was.” Those guys are actually not very strong as they look. They can’t move very well. A lot of them are sick, or that’s really the only people I’ve ever known who were always involved in the bodybuilding. Like I said, those were not the people that I ran with the tightest, because as soon as I saw a little bit of that world, there was not a feeling in me at all.

Steven Sashen:

That’s an interesting thing. There’s some people who think that you can’t get big doing bodyweight training, and there’s some people who are afraid that just doing anything, they’re going to get big.

Al Kavadlo:

Right. Isn’t that funny? Well, the guys who think you can’t get big doing bodyweight training are men, and the people who think you’re going to get too big are generally women. And I hear this all the time. But the thing is, if you look around at most gyms, the people are lifting weights and they don’t look like bodybuilders either. So it’s like, those guys, it’s not the lifting that makes them look like that. It’s genetic steroids. And then yeah, of course, the lifting is part of it, but you or me, no matter how much we lift, we’re never going to be on the cover of FLEX Magazine unless we started juicing 25 years ago.

Steven Sashen:

No, there was one bodybuilder who said, “Yeah, we’re taking a lot of drugs, but that’s not why I looked this way. You couldn’t do what I do to look this way off of the drugs.” I mean, taking the drugs out of the equation. And talking to him, it was totally true. I mean, first of all, he was practically a monk. All the guy did was eat, sleep, work out. That’s it. Just beyond religious, beyond obsessive compulsive about each one of those things in a way that is yet again goes back to the 10,000-hour thing. You’ve got to have the right kind of personality, the right kind of whatever, to be someone interested in doing that for a decade or more, because it is-

Al Kavadlo:

Absolutely. And to be clear, I don’t mean any disrespect to the bodybuilding community.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, no.

Al Kavadlo:

Like you said, those people are tremendously disciplined, and that’s what they want. That’s their goal. It wasn’t my goal, it wasn’t what drew me to this path. There’s plenty of people who would look at what I do and be like, “That’s not for me. This guy’s an idiot. He is a tool. I don’t like him.” And that’s cool. You need to have different options in the world, something for everybody. The world is very big, and I feel like now than ever, there’s more examples out there for people to potentially find someone who they can relate to.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Al Kavadlo:

I think that’s part of why your brand has done well, I think that’s part of why I’ve had success, is because we’ve reached people who maybe nobody else was really on the same wavelength as them at the time that they were receptive to that.

Steven Sashen:

I want to hit you with a question that you can feel free to answer with a plug for any and everything that you’ve ever done, and it’s a two-parter. Part one is, if you wanted to give someone the simplest way of getting started with bodyweight training, what would it be? And the subset of that is, if you wanted to do something specific for runners, since we have a lot of runners who are listening to this, what would you recommend for them?

Al Kavadlo:

Actually, I have a couple programs that I think are good for a runner or a non-runner who’s just looking to get into this, and it really depends on what format people prefer. If you want a book or an e-book, I have one that’s simply called Get Strong. I co-wrote it with my brother Danny. It’s our best-selling book between the two of us. It has a very clear, concise program in there. It lays out a lot of our philosophy behind it, talks a little bit about some other diet and lifestyle things. It’s just a really good general overview of everything that we’re about. For people who prefer more of an app or a video program, I have a program called Universal Strength. That’s a 30-day video program where I do see the exercises demonstrated actually in video rather than just reading descriptions and seeing photos in a book.

And then I also have another app that’s just called Al Kavadlo we’re working out, and it’s an animated cartoon app, and that one’s sort of more like a reference. It just has a bunch of different little animations of me showing different exercises and taking you through a couple of quick sample workouts. So that app, if you have an iPhone or an Android, there’s a free version of that. People, if they’re listening right now, they could just go download that right now. And then obviously if they like the app, there’s more content you can unlock with a premium account, which is still pretty small investment.

Steven Sashen:

So for any of these things, where would people find you and those things?

Al Kavadlo:

Well, like I said, they could just go to the app store and put my name. If you can spell K-A-V-A-D-L-O, and you Google that or put it into the App Store or Google Play or Amazon, then you’ll find my stuff.

Steven Sashen:

And for the books and other things?

Al Kavadlo:

Amazon has-

Steven Sashen:

Oh, Amazon has books.

Al Kavadlo:

Amazon has everything.

Steven Sashen:

Of course.

Al Kavadlo:

I mean, it depends on what you’re looking for. If you’re looking for a book, you can go Amazon. If you’re just looking for general information, you could Google me.

Steven Sashen:

I was going to say-

Al Kavadlo:

People can find info nowadays if they want it.

Steven Sashen:

Don’t make me force you to give out your website or your Instagram or something like that. I mean-

Al Kavadlo:

It’s all just my name. My website is just alkavadlo.com. My Instagram is @alkavadlo. So if you google me, everything on the first page is all the stuff that people would be looking for.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, see, now you’ve given me a search engine optimization mission to outrank you for your own name.

Al Kavadlo:

Then I’d be very curious what you would put on that page, and hopefully it wouldn’t be too disparaging.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, no, it wouldn’t be at all. Frankly, I wish that it would be the last time you and I got to see each other where it would just be us hanging out in Veniero’s Bakery in the East Village, because that was just delightful. No, in the early internet days, there was times, just because I was experimenting with search engine marketing, anyone who had an infomercial on TV, including Tony Robbins, I outranked them for their own name. There was no value to it because nobody was selling anything then, but it was just like an experiment to see what was possible.

Al Kavadlo:

I think that would be harder to pull off now. I’m really curious because my website has been my website for so long and it’s just alkavadlo.com, so I don’t know how anyone could trick Google into thinking that they were more the authority on that than that site is. But who knows?

Steven Sashen:

No, no. It would be a tricky one. The thing that’s fun to do is, you can rank for things like, “Al Kavadlo is the greatest bodyweight fitness guide.”

Al Kavadlo:

Right. You could get a specific term, but just my name. I think the website I have had for 11 years.

Steven Sashen:

And I’m certainly not suggesting that I would. Yeah. It’s not like I would have the reason inspiration, let alone time to even try, as somebody who has also owned a domain name since the beginning of the internet. It’s funny, one of my best friends and I, in 1991, we were sitting around my apartment saying, “I can’t believe someone’s trying to register the domain business.com. Why would you just register a generic word?” And by the way, who has $70? In fact, it was 140 because you had to register for two years. It’s like, we don’t have that kind of cash. Oops.

Al Kavadlo:

A lot has changed.

Steven Sashen:

I’m trying to think if there’s any other specific thing I want to ask. Actually, I want to ask you this. We could have gone to this. What was it that got you into the whole idea of natural movement and minimalist footwear way back when? What was the inspiration and what would you recommend?

Al Kavadlo:

I know it’s a cliche, but it was the book Born to Run.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, really? Perfect timing.

Al Kavadlo:

That’s why I was seeking out this type of footwear back in 2009 or whenever it was that we first connected, because it was right when that book had come out. I tried on a pair of the FiveFingers, and I just did not like the way they felt, and I wanted something that was, he talked about in the book, the actual huaraches. I was like, “I want that. I want what they were wearing in that book.”

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

Al Kavadlo:

And you were the first person that I found who could provide such a thing.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. We joked way back when that Chris McDougall, the author of that book was, what’s the word, he was our inadvertent marketing department for the first two years because people were just responding to that book. There was actually a thing that I used to do. I took business cards, and every time I walked by a bookstore, I’d walk in and I’d find copies of Born to Run, I put my business card in the book as a bookmark.

Al Kavadlo:

Nice. You’re a hustler, and that’s why you are where you are now.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it was inspired by a friend of mine who self-published a book, and what he did is he would just take copies of his actual book and put it on storage.

Al Kavadlo:

Put it in storage. Right.

Steven Sashen:

So then when person would go to check out, it wouldn’t be in the computer and they’d have to find out where the book came from, and they would call him and then order books.

Al Kavadlo:

If someone actually went to buy it, which right there is a huge victory.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. It was pretty entertaining. Well, Al, first of all, thanks. Secondly, needless to say, I love the work that you and Danny are doing. One other compliment for the two of you about your books, these books are gorgeous. The photography is spectacular, the artwork is, I mean, it’s so thoughtfully and meticulously and well done that, I mean, just as a piece of art. I mean, they’re worth taking a look at. I haven’t saw that before. Thank you.

Al Kavadlo:

That’s a very nice compliment. Yeah. We’re very involved in every aspect of the books. We’re intimately involved in selecting photographers and photos and graphic design, all of that. We love hearing exactly what you just said, and that means the world to me. Thank you. Obviously I’m a huge fan of your brand.

Steven Sashen:

Well, thanks.

Al Kavadlo:

I’ve been wearing pretty much exclusively Xero Shoes for a long time now, and spread in the word as best as I can, because like you said, that’s what we got to do. That’s part of the movement, telling everyone about it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. At a certain point, we’ll hit critical mass, and it’ll be the obvious thing instead of the odd thing. That’s what we’re-

Al Kavadlo:

Yeah. I’ve seen plenty of people wearing Xero Shoes out in the wild, and sometimes they see that I have them too, and there’s an acknowledgement for look. Sometimes I see people, this is the coolest thing, wearing Xero Shoes, and I look at them and they look at me and they say, “You’re Al Kavadlo. I’m wearing Xero Shoes because I saw you in the ad.”

Steven Sashen:

Oh, that’s great. I love it.

Al Kavadlo:

It has actually happened a couple times.

Steven Sashen:

My favorite thing is when someone recognizes my shoes and they don’t know it’s me.

Al Kavadlo:

Well, right. They’re not necessarily going to know your face, but they know the product.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s my favorite. My fantasy as a business person is that someday I want to be at a dinner party where I overhear someone talking about how they were one of the people who helped start my company and they don’t know who I am. Hopefully-

Al Kavadlo:

That’ll be an odd, surreal moment if that ever happens.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s like here in Boulder where Crocs started, and the number of people that I’ve met who say they were one of the people who helped start Crocs, and I know the people who started Crocs, so I hope that someday we get to the point where people are misrepresenting reality for their own party favors.

Al Kavadlo:

Xero Shoes has that much cache that people want to lie, say they were a part of it at the beginning. Now, that’s how you’ll know you’ve made it.

Steven Sashen:

We’ll get there. Anyway, once again, everyone go to alkavadlo.com, A-L-K-A-V-A-D-L-O, or do a search on wherever you just said.

Al Kavadlo:

Anything, anywhere where you would search, hopefully you can find me.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly. More importantly, let us know what you experience when you just add some of this wonderful body weight and calisthenic stuff into just … We could have talked about this more, but I like to say, don’t even think about it like a workout per se. One of the things that I’ve been having a lot of fun with is just whenever I got to get out of a chair, I’ll go do something. I got my-

Al Kavadlo:

I think you made that point earlier. There’s a playful element to it.

Steven Sashen:

But I just want to emphasize that specific thing. It’s like you don’t need to do-

Al Kavadlo:

It could be spontaneous.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Do a set of pushups, do a set of box jumps. Do just whenever-

Al Kavadlo:

Hopefully some people who are listening actually tried that glute bridge. We were talking about that earlier. Or maybe they’ll try it now. If you made it this far in this podcast and you never did a glute bridge, do you remember what we were talking about?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, do it. And if you want to see something fun, check out Al’s videos and look for dragon pistol squat. If you want to see something that makes you just go, “What?” Actually it’s worse. It’s one of those things where you go, “Oh, that looks cool,” and then you try it and go, “Are you out of your mind?” That is so cool.

Al Kavadlo:

Why, thank you, my friend.

Steven Sashen:

So anyway, everyone, thank you so much for being part of this. A reminder again, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. That’s where you can find out how to interact with everything we’re doing. You’ll find all the previous episodes. You can leave comments and questions. In fact, if you have a question or a recommendation, someone you think should be on the show, or you want to tell me you think that I have my curly head up my butt, I’m open to that conversation as well. In fact, one of my fantasies for this podcast is to get somebody on who vehemently disagrees with me, and let’s hear what that conversation turns into. Suffice it to say, like I said before, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe, but most importantly, go out, have fun, live life, feet first.

Speaker 1:

You’ve been listening to The MOVEMENT Movement podcast with host Steven Sashen. Remember to join the tribe and subscribe at jointhemovementmovement.com.

Do You Need a Fitness Retreat?

marketdomination — Wed, 02 Oct 2024 00:00:56 +0000

David Durante is a highly accomplished gymnast and dedicated coach, co-owner of Power Monkey Fitness, and a former member of the 2008 U.S. Olympic gymnastics team. His journey in gymnastics began at Stanford University, where he became an NCAA All-American. Over the years, he claimed multiple U.S. national titles and represented the country in two World Championships. Now based in Oregon, Dave is passionate about teaching handstands and skill development, advocating consistent training and mobility work. His role as an educator at Power Monkey Camp allows him to share his expertise with athletes of all levels, from beginners to elite competitors. Known for his love of gymnastics, Durante inspires others to embrace fitness with enthusiasm and consistency, ensuring they find joy in their fitness journeys.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with David Durante about the mental challenges, pressure, competition, and responsibility athletes face.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How gymnastics training requires adaptability and resilience in diverse conditions.

– Why financial literacy should be a priority for young athletes who receive significant payments from NIL deals.

– How engaging in various training activities like gymnastics, weightlifting, running, and yoga improves movement skills.

– How you can improve your fitness levels and learn from experts by attending Power Monkey Camp.

– How competitive strength challenges can expand gymnastics programs at colleges by attracting more participants.

Connect with David:

Guest Contact Info

Instagram
@powermonkeyfitness
@powermonkeycamp

Facebook
facebook.com/PowerMonkeyFitness
facebook.com/PowerMonkeyCamp

Links Mentioned:
powermonkeyfitness.com

Powermonkeycamp.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Xeroshoes.com
Jointhemovementmovement.com

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

If you’re trying to get fit, a lot of people will put together a home gym, do something, find an actual gym to use. But maybe you need a kickstart. Maybe you need to go away and really commit. I don’t mean forever. I mean just have a little bit of time. And that’ll give you something you can use for the rest of your life, just that intent to do something. Well, we’re going to find out more about that, that’s an English sentence, on today’s episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, starting feet first, those things at the end of your legs that are your foundation. And we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes just the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, or walk, or hike, or do yoga, or CrossFit, or whatever it is that you want to do, and to do that effectively, and efficiently, and enjoyably.

And I’m highlighting enjoyably, because if you’re not having a good time, you’re not going to keep doing it anyway. So I’m Steven Sashen, co-founder of xeroshoes.com, and the host of the MOVEMENT Movement podcast. And we call it that, because we, that involves all of us, are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do, not getting in the way with things that will actually cause problems. So the way that you are involved is really simple. Spread the word. Share, like, give us a thumbs up, give us a review, five stars, whatever. We can do that. Tell people about this.

In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. And if you want to find out more, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. There’s nothing you need to do to join. Just that’s where you’ll find previous episodes. All the other places, you can find us on social media. And if you want to find a different place to get the podcast, you’ll find other places there as well. Okay, let’s get started. David, tell people who the hell you are and what you’re doing here.

David Durante:

Thanks for having me on, Steven. Well, my name is Dave Durante. I was a former gymnast. Back in the day I grew up in New Jersey. I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship out to Stanford University, competed for Stanford after I graduated. I became part of Team USA. I was part of Team USA for six years. During that time I was on a few world championship teams. I was national champion a few times, and then was part of the team that went to Beijing in 2008 for the Olympic Games. After the Olympics, moved back to Stanford, and helped coach a team to a national championship in 2009.

And right around that time, I was ending my competitive career, wanted to figure out what I wanted to do next, and stumbled into the CrossFit space as someone that wanted to educate people on how to move better, and not just move faster. And so I started our current company, Power Monkey Fitness, with my partner who’s a stunt man, former gymnast, and now stunt man. And we’ve been doing educational seminars and such, which maybe we’ll get into around what we do now with Power Monkey. But essentially, we’re fitness educators now around our little niche sports, trying to help people move better and move for longer with good technique at top of mind.

Steven Sashen:

So it’s too bad that you didn’t have a successful athletic career. That’s really a shame. I don’t know. Someone must have told you. So I predate you by a long time. And sadly, my gymnastics era, there was no post collegiate opportunities, and I was two years in the wrong direction. So I was like, “Oh, well.” And I’m certainly not going to my All American stuff to everything.

David Durante:

No, I did. I heard that you had… That’s awesome. I actually wanted to chat with you about it. I don’t get to talk to many people that also had a collegiate gymnastics career. So I’m curious about yours a little bit, if you wouldn’t mind.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I’m going to skip ahead and I’m going to show you something that for those people who are only listening, they won’t see it, but I’ll show you this.

David Durante:

That’s a great tuck.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it was a standing back flip, for people who didn’t see. That was on my 61st birthday, so not bad. Now I’m going to tell you something funny about this. I hadn’t done a standing back in about four or five years. And the last time I did one before that one that I just showed you, I only made it hands and knees. And I didn’t know why it was the first time I ever missed one. And I’d forgotten I had abdominal surgery three days earlier, so oops. But the interesting thing about doing that one now, when I set it, I know where I am, and then I literally black out until I see my feet heading towards the ground. It’s the weirdest experience in the world. It’s like time is gone, blackout. And then I called one of my old high school gymnast best friends, and he said, “How are your hands feeling?” I went, “I know.” I did like 15. My hands were on fire.

David Durante:

Yeah, it’s so bizarre. It’s so bizarre. You see stars again, all these little things, because your mind continues to think, “I can do this. My body understands the pattern,” but the body doesn’t catch up the way that it used to.

Steven Sashen:

No, it just isn’t doing the things that it used to do. But I had probably done, and this is going to sound hyperbolic, but I did some street performing. So I was doing 20, 30 standing backs a day then.

David Durante:

Sure.

Steven Sashen:

Then when I was just training, I was doing a hundred a day, just for the fun of it. And so I’ve probably done 20,000 of them in my career. And so yeah, the muscle memory is all there. Just the circulation gets all messed up.

David Durante:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

In a freaky, freaky way. So let’s dive into that for the fun of it. I’m going to give you a best and worst. What was the best thing about being at that level, and competing, and heading to the Olympics, and World Championships and all the rest? I’ll do three things. Best, worst, most surprising.

David Durante:

Yeah, sure. So best has always been the team component. I think everyone considers in things of gymnastics as an individual sport. I have never thought of gymnastics as an individual sport. I grew up in a boys program in New Jersey that emphasized and encouraged it being a team component. We were really lucky that we had a really big boys program, which is rare. So I grew up always wanting to say, “Okay, my performance contributes to a bigger goal.” And so going on to compete for Stanford and going on to compete for USA, it was always, “What can I do to contribute to the betterment of the team?”

And so what I miss the most, and what I get the most enjoyment out of thinking back to my memories of the sport, is what we collectively did as a team, and what the team did in Beijing, and what our collegiate teams did, and the moments where we surpass people’s expectations of what we are anticipated to do. And for me, the team aspect is absolutely the most important part of what I look back fondly around the sport. The most challenging part, this might need a podcast in and of itself, but the mental side of the sport was something that didn’t come easy for me. And it was something that I-

Steven Sashen:

Well, how are you thinking of the mental side?

David Durante:

Yeah, so around competing and performing the way that you practice. For years, I always had this separation, because I loved training. I was more of someone that was more of a gym rat. I loved being in the gym. I loved taking turns, and being in there first, and leaving last, and doing all the work that other people weren’t willing to do, because I wasn’t the most talented guy in the world. So I just appreciated the hard work that went into incrementally catching up on the others that were a little bit more talented. But then taking that, and transferring what you’re doing well in a training session, and then establishing that in a competitive setting was always really challenging for me.

And basically when the lights were turned on, I needed to learn how to perform what I knew that I could do. It didn’t come easily for me. And in fact, for years, I had trouble with this idea that if I didn’t perform my best, that I was letting everyone down. And this idea of everyone, your parents, your family, your coaches, your teammates are all on you. And if you don’t perform, you’re letting people down. And that’s not necessarily the case, but it’s the way that I went into competitions. And it was a big detriment to me being able to perform at the level that I knew I was capable of.

And so it took years and years for me to be able to understand how to mentally put myself in a place where I could treat a competition the way I did a training session. And I will tell you that it’s not easy. It’s not even easy to verbalize how to do it, because I think everyone’s journey towards finding that is slightly different in terms of what works for them. But it took for my last coach to help me figure that out for myself.

Steven Sashen:

Well, this is a small subset of this, but it might make sense. So once I got back into sprinting, it took me years to stay in my lane. It took me years not to care if there was someone right behind my shoulder or right in front of my shoulder. And in a similar vein, the thing that’s interesting about what you’re saying, especially starting with, if you think about it, the idea of gymnastics as a team sport is, you know as well as anyone else that there’s no one you’ve ever competed against in the world. Well, let me say it differently.

Anyone you’ve ever competed with or against, if they have six good routines, it’s a fluke. And even with that, it’s still hard, because when it’s not happening for you, it’s like, son of a bitch. And I don’t know about you, but part of that is what kept me going, is that reinforcement thing. And I joke again with sprinting. I finish a race and somebody says, “How’d you do?” And my answer is, “Can I give you the excuse? Or do you just want the number?” And it’s the same thing. The best floor routine I ever did, I took one small step, and that’s all I fucking remember.

David Durante:

Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. But gymnastics is about working toward perfection, but never achieving it, right?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

David Durante:

And I think the best gymnasts in the world are the ones that are able to improvise the best, because there’s always going to be something that’s a little different about the apparatus, about the environment, about the temperature. These are things that go into performing that are slightly different everywhere you go around the world. And the gymnasts that are able to minimize those distractions or slight changes are the ones that normally end up at the top.

Steven Sashen:

And the irony with that is, the only way you get good at that is by doing it wrong over, and over, and over, and having to deal with it. So that goes back to what you’re doing just in training and the enjoyment of training. And of course this is something that non-gymnasts don’t understand, is if you watch a bunch of gymnasts practicing, training, you’ll see the craziest, most freaky wipe outs in the world. And then you’ll see everyone else in that gym laughing hysterically.

David Durante:

I know.

Steven Sashen:

It’s like, “That guy nearly broke his neck.” It’s like, “I know. Wasn’t that a riot?”

David Durante:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

David Durante:

I don’t know if we’re just crazy, the way that we think, or if we know if the person is okay or not. You always take a moment.

Steven Sashen:

Exactly.

David Durante:

Are they okay? And then the laughter starts, as soon as you know that they’re okay.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Well, this is another thing you can spot a wipe out from way before it happens. This is one of those things when I would be watching gymnastics with my then girlfriend, and someone’s just about to take off and I go, “Oh, shit.” And she’s like, “What?” And then a split second later, it’s a massive wipe out, and you can spot it. So some of that is just, you’re anticipating, because you see it coming.

David Durante:

Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

And it’s a joke with a punchline, fundamentally, but that’s the thing that people just do not understand at all.

David Durante:

Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

And I don’t know if you went through one, and we will get back to taking a fitness vacation. I don’t know if you went through this, but certainly towards the end of high school, the sense of indestructibility and knowing what you can do with your body that no one else knows how to do, led everyone that I know to do really, really stupid shit. So my version was, we’d be driving on the highway at a hundred miles an hour, climb out one window, go across the roof, climb in another window. You can grab both sides of the car at the same time. Where’s the problem? It just seems so obvious.

David Durante:

I love it. Those stories, only gymnasts have those stories. We are daredevils in the most natural sense. We just take on risks. Most people have no idea. And we at least have a platform and an arena where we can actually show off those moves.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and that’s the thing that people don’t understand is, it changed during your era, and P.S., I used to watch you all the time. It changed during your era where they stopped giving points for, how close did you come to dying?

David Durante:

Was that the originality part of the ROVs?

Steven Sashen:

Literally, it was the risk part.

David Durante:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Here, I’ll speak in code and then I’ll decipher. I was doing running 1 and 3s in 1979 on a wrestling mat. The year that I was doing that, three guys got paralyzed. And I said to my coach years later, “Why didn’t you tell me about that?” He goes, “Well, A, it would’ve freaked you out. And B, I knew you could do it.” My coach was like five time national, three time world tumbling champion, and one of the greatest gymnasts and gymnastics coaches ever. And I’d say to him things like, “Who else did you ever teach this move to?” And he went, “Nobody else. That’s the guy who could do it.” But yeah, the risk part was, you got bonus points for like, “Oh, shit.” A very, very stupid thing. So your partner is a stuntman. And this is funny, because when I was hanging out with stunt guys, we were asked to do something, and they’d map it out with a spreadsheet. And the gymnasts were like, “Let’s go do that.”

David Durante:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mindset.

David Durante:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. He’s loving that world now. He’s a little older. He’s not the guy falling down the steps, or driving the crazy cars on fire anymore these days. He’s more on the coordination side, but it’s cool to hear, “What are you working on this week? What movie? What TV show?” He’s always doing something interesting.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and the sad part, we have one of our dear friends and someone who we help a lot is Jessie Graff, who in addition to being a Nina Warrior, Jesse’s a stunt person. And the sad thing is, she’s legally not allowed to talk about most of what she’s done, so the actors can pretend that they were doing it.

David Durante:

I know. You know what? I don’t think that stunt people get nearly enough recognition. There’s still no Oscar award for stunts, which is absurd. I watched on the plane out here, I’m in Tennessee right now. I just flew out yesterday. I watched some of that Fall Guy movie that just came out, that new Ryan Gosling movie. And that’s supposed to be showing off stunt people a little bit more, but they definitely need to get more love. What they do is absolutely insane.

Steven Sashen:

Keanu Reeves did a really great thing in an interview. Someone said, you do your own stunts? He said, I do my own action. Stuntmen do the stunts.

David Durante:

Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Which was very, very kind of him to say. So many people in Hollywood don’t want to admit the truth, like something like that, or yeah, I took steroids. I’m not saying any of those guys who are in their sixties who look like they’re ready to go to a bodybuilding competition have ever done anything performance enhancing. Clearly, it’s just chicken, and rice, and vegetables, and two-a-day workouts. What else could it possibly be?

David Durante:

Anybody can do it.

Steven Sashen:

That’s right. Just get the right chicken. So we had a best and worst. Do we have a surprising?

David Durante:

Surprising, let’s see. Probably a lot of surprising. Surprising now that I’m still able to do things at my age that I didn’t think I would be able to. And I think it’s kind of the path that I’ve taken to make fitness and movement such an important part of my life, that I’m still able to do things that most people who retire from the sport 16 years ago are not able to do. So surprising in the sense that I’m happy that I’m still able to do planches, and still do a underpress to handstands, and ring handstands. So for me, I’m surprised that my body is still capable of doing some of the things that I used to compete.

Steven Sashen:

I have shown my standing back flip to a number of former Olympians, some a little bit older than you, Steve McLean for example. And anytime I do, if they haven’t done what you’ve done, which is stay with it at a decent level, their response is always the same, which is, “Bite me, man.” Get out there and do it. It’s no big deal. I have the same conversation with runners or sprinters. They go, “Well, I used to sprint, but I haven’t done that for a while.” It’s like, master track and field. Just get back out there. Just go do it. What’s a big deal?

But it is an interesting point. If you really, not even don’t stop, but if you have an athletic mindset, that’s going to keep you going for a while. I’m going to do a not humblebrag along with a horrible admission. I used to have two claims to fame. One, that I’d never worn Crocs. And the other is I’d never played pickleball. And sadly, I broke the ladder this past weekend. I was at a friend’s birthday party, and everyone was playing and said, “Come out and play.” I said “All right. Whatever.” And I got a very sweet compliment from one of the coaches. He says, “Wait, let me see if I got this straight. That was the first time you’ve ever played pickleball?” I said, “I haven’t even touched a racket in 30 years.” He went, “Jesus, you should be doing this professionally.” That’s not going to happen. Jumbo ping pong? Not my thing.

David Durante:

Oh, man. We love it here. At our Power Monkey Camp, it’s become one of the hits of the off times. It becomes very competitive. We are just very competitive in everything that we do. And-

Steven Sashen:

You think?

David Durante:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s become a fun after training activity for a lot of people here.

Steven Sashen:

It is fun, but you nailed it though. It was fun, but everyone else is competitive. It’s like, oh, yeah. That’s not going to work. There’s no bonus points, no prize money, no sponsorship. I actually did watch a very funny video last night of a professional game where one of the players just got really mad, because the opposing team kept lobbing towards her, which doesn’t sound like a big deal, but what that meant was, the sun was in her eyes and she kept whiffing and missing the ball. And then she got so mad. She’s like, “You can’t keep doing that.” It’s like, this is a competition.

David Durante:

That’s part of the game.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly.

David Durante:

It’s part the game. Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

If you don’t like it, wait until you’re on this side of the court, and you’ll do it to me. What’s the big deal? All right. That was a trip down various lanes. Actually, wait, I’ve got one more for you.

David Durante:

Sure.

Steven Sashen:

It’s related to this. When I was at the Atlanta Olympics as a spectator, not a performer, I went to every sport that I knew nothing about, which was really fun. And my favorite thing that I went to was wrestling. And it was my favorite, because it was a very small venue that you were right up against the mats. The judges were right in front of you, and there’s no space between you and the wrestlers, which is great. And everybody in the audience was either a current, former or family member of a wrestler.

So it was this incredible familial thing no matter where you were from. They all knew each other. It was a very small world. And in fact, the best part was this one Polish wrestler who was having just a great competition. And so everyone became Polish. Whenever he was there, people were freaking out. No matter where they were from, no matter who, if their own kid was up against that guy, they were still all Pole. So it was great. What was the international feeling like for you? Because that’s varied over the years.

David Durante:

The international feeling at the Olympics?

Steven Sashen:

Just between people.

David Durante:

Or just in general?

Steven Sashen:

Both, actually.

David Durante:

So I was fortunate enough to compete 17 times for USA during the course of my USA career. So I traveled all over the place, was on two Pan American Games teams, a few world championships, competed in Ukraine a bunch of times, Paris, all over the place. So we got a sense of what the atmosphere was like in a variety of different places. Some places where gymnastics is the national sport, or something close to it. Competing in Japan where gymnastics is a highlighted sport, is very different than competing in Dominican Republic, where it’s just another sport.

Steven Sashen:

Or let’s be honest, in America.

David Durante:

Exactly, exactly. But I will say that most places, the Americans were not the favorite people in the world when we stepped on the court, the mats. And it was funny. I remember one Pan American Games, we were down in Brazil, we were in Rio, and the entire crowd was against us. So essentially, they wanted anyone to win or to hit a routine outside of an American. So there were 19,000 people in the stands, and I had never heard so many cheers for a mistake. So if we had a bent knee, or if we had a big step, or God forbid, a fall, they were going crazy. In fact, they would cheer more for an American fall or a mistake, than they would even for Brazilian hit routine.

So for us, that was crazy. And I remember our coach. And I was training, one of my Stanford coaches at the time, who was preparing us for these. “Hey, when you go compete in South America, you’ve got to be prepared for anything.” So I’m doing a pommel horse routine and getting ready. And I just see a shoe come by my head, and whizz by my ear. And I come down. I was like, “What was that?” He had thrown a shoe at me. I was like, “Why are you throwing a shoe at me?” He’s like, “Hey, you never know what’s going to happen down there. They might be throwing shoes.” I was like, “Nobody’s going to throw a shoe at me while I’m competing.” He’s like, “Hey, we’re preparing for anything. You never know.” And I didn’t get a shoe thrown at me, but the atmosphere was quite hostile.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I can’t even imagine the feeling of that one. All right. One last one that I just thought of. This is kind of a commercial for gymnastics, since it isn’t hugely watched or as popular here as it is in other places. The best part about watching the Olympics or even World Championships, but especially the Olympics, is when people are just competing on individual events, when you’re getting the specialists who you almost never see. And those guys, for people who don’t know, if you ever get to go to the Olympics, and I highly encourage it, that’s the part you want to watch, because it’s guys who only focus on one or two things. They’re incredibly good, and they know that for them to win an individual medal, they’ve got to throw everything they’ve got. And they will be doing shit that nobody else would even think of doing, because it’s so risky, or so God knows what. And you see some of the most amazing things a human being has ever done.

David Durante:

Absolutely. I want to point out a couple of things there that I think are interesting. One, hopefully people watch gymnastics in Paris over the summer, and are still a little bit engaged from the amazingness that happened in Paris, especially on the men’s gymnastics side because the men did an incredible job, first medal in 16 years. And what came of it was an amazing story. Stephen Nedoroscik, pommel horse specialist. We’re talking about specialists. A pommel horse guy, as he’s known to the masses. And now he’s on Dancing with the Stars, and getting all the accolades and recognition that he deserves, which is awesome to see.

But I encourage exactly what you’re saying, because a lot of times in my world where we’re seeing people now being interested in handstands, and ring work, and bar work for the first time, they’re starting to work on very basic gymnastics movements, working on pullovers maybe, or some form of a kip. And in the gymnastics world, these are very low level movements, but still challenging for people as they’re learning, and especially later in life. And we’re creating this ability to create a form of comparison, which has always been lacking in the gymnastics world, where a back flip, a double back and a triple back were all the same. They were all equally difficult. Crazy, amazing. I’m in awe. I have no idea how more difficult a double is from a triple, so it all gets lost on someone.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

David Durante:

Now we’re able to create a little bit of a form of comparison, where I tried to get up on rings, I tried to do a muscle up and I can’t do it. And now I’m seeing someone do an iron cross. I have a form of comparison and a reference point, which is critical. But I would highly encourage, there were a few routines that really stood out to me at the Olympic Games that I would encourage people to go back and look. And there were two Chinese gymnasts, one that was on parallel bars that won the gold medal on parallel bars. His parallel bar routine is so far ahead of all of the other parallel bar routines, that it’s in a league of its own, kind of like a Simone Biles of the parallel bar world, where he’s doing a routine that shouldn’t really be possible, and executing it at a level that shouldn’t be possible.

So I would highly recommend going to watch that specific gold medal winning routine. It’s special. It’s something that stands out above the rest. And then additionally, the Chinese gymnast that won rings, his ring routine is also just powerful in terms of what he’s doing, the level, the expertise, the precision.

Steven Sashen:

It’s horrible, because he makes it look so easy, and he’s doing stuff that literally no one else even thought you could do.

David Durante:

It’s incredible. He looks like he’s in… We have an apparatus that we built within Power Monkey. It’s called a Ring Thing, which most former gymnasts would call it a dream machine, just a 50/50 device that we use as a training tool to be able to understand positions, where it takes away 50% of your body weight.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. Let me describe it, because it’s so much fun. It’s my favorite thing to play on. So basically, people can imagine the still rings. And instead of having the rings… Well, you’ve got the rings still, but what you set up is a pulley. So the pulley goes to your waist and basically your hands, so that you’re not really using rings, you’re using the other end of this pulley. And so what it does, and you can make it take over half your weight or even more. So basically, you can do all these strength moves that you can’t really do yet. So it’s a training device at best. At worst it’s like, “This is so much fun. I don’t care if I ever do this for real, because holy crap, now I can do it fake. And that’s good enough for me for now.”

David Durante:

Yeah, exactly.

Steven Sashen:

So yeah. If you can ever find one of these, you’ve got to go-

David Durante:

Yeah, we sell them. Power Monkey, we make-

Steven Sashen:

Oh, sweet.

David Durante:

Yeah, we make them. We call it the Ring Thing. And we’ve been selling it for over a decade now. It was actually the first piece of equipment that me and my partner made when we were living in New York to help the CrossFit world out, to help understand how to do strict movements correctly. And now we have them at the Olympic Training Center. We have them at all the collegiate universities. We have them everywhere. And they’re a pretty good training tool.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Now that I know that, you know as soon as we’re done, I’m going to buy one, because I’ve got a space. We have a deck, and underneath the deck there’s just enough room. I’ve got a couple of sets of rings, but now I’m going to replace one of those.

David Durante:

Oh, perfect. Yeah. It’ll be a fun little thing to play around with. But one thing that’s interesting, and so just a way for people who are the casual observer to the gymnastics world, something to look out for, there’s something called a false grip in the gymnastics world when you’re on rings. And it’s basically creating a crease at your wrist, where you’re setting the ring in that crease between your forearm and the palm of your hand instead of in the mid-point of your palm. And you know this already, but just to explain to your viewers and listeners. And that distance change is only a few inches in terms of where the ring sits, but it creates a significant mechanical advantage. So most gymnasts will do what’s called a false grip, to be able to hold those crazy difficult positions for the full two seconds that’s required. Now in the gymnastics world, a false grip is a deduction. So you get points taken off for doing what almost everyone does.

The top of the top, and especially in the case of this Chinese gymnast, what they’re doing at the Olympics now is opening the palm of their hand up to show the judges that there’s no false grip, and that their sitting the ring in the palm of the hand. And the Chinese gymnast does this when he’s inverted, in his inverted cross. And it’s one of the most beautiful and bad-ass things you’ll ever see. So when you’re watching, don’t just be in awe, look for these little nuance things, to be able to separate yourself and say, okay, this is the guy that stands out.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and even better, look for the guys who are even cheating that, where they’re basically doing a false grip. So when their arm is fully outstretched, parallel to the ground, the ring is basically still on their wrist instead of on their hand. They open their hand, but the ring is on their wrist and they’re hoping no one’s going to notice, which is of course ridiculous. But the first time I saw that I went, “Oh, well played.” That’s good. So okay, let’s get back to where we started this whole thing. And by the way, this what happens to me almost every time I talk to anybody is, we know where we’re going to start, or we think we know where we’re going to start. We never get there. Talk to me about where you are right now and what you’re doing.

David Durante:

Sure. So I’m out in the woods of Tennessee, middle of nowhere. The town is called Crossville. We have been running an adult fitness camp for the last 11 plus years. Power Monkey is the name of my company. And we run Power Monkey Camp. And this facility is owned by two Olympic gymnasts who you may know. They’re still very relevant in the sport. John Macready was on the ’96 team. You were there in the stands, watching John. And then John Roethlisberger, who was on three Olympic Games, ’96 being one of them, ’92, and then 2000 was his last. And the two Johns own this facility, and run it as a kid’s gymnastics camp in the summers.

And we take over with Power Monkey in the fall and the spring, and we turn it into an adult fitness camp. And so we bring in a hundred participants from around the world. We have a staff of about 50 to 70, depending on the camp, who are all experts in a variety of different spaces, from gymnastics, to weightlifting, to jump rope training, to running, to kettle bells, to rowing. We do yoga in the mornings, we do contrast therapy, we do metabolic testing, we do nutrition seminars and mental training seminars. We do programming seminars, we do adaptive training, we do sleep seminars.

It’s pretty wide-ranging in terms of the expertise that we bring to people that are just gym owners, or coaches, or just athlete enthusiasts. And we give them an opportunity to not only learn from the great minds within the space, but also in an environment that you normally don’t get a chance to do anymore. And that’s basically a camp. And if you’ve ever gone to a kid’s camp when you were growing up, and it’s a fond memory, we’re able to recreate that as an adult. You sleep in cabins. We have a chef here that does amazing meals for us all week. You train during the day, and then we have beers and s’mores at a campfire at night. We get to hang out. We have a beautiful lake, 150 acre campus, 50,000 square foot of gym space across four gyms. It’s really, really a special environment.

Steven Sashen:

So what kind of people are typically showing up?

David Durante:

It’s very wide-ranging. We’ve had about 40 different countries represented over the years. We have kids from 16, is our youngest allowable camper. If they come with a chaperone before 18, they can come at 16. And we’ve had people come all the way up to mid-eighties that participate. We’ve had people that have won the CrossFit games, and Fabian Hambüchen is part of our team now, is going to be coming to do a demo. So we have Olympic champions that are here, but it’s really meant for the beginner and intermediate level athlete, that wants to just learn how to move better, and how to maybe teach things a little bit better if they’re a coach.

And so I think sometimes people will see our promotional materials, and get intimidated when they see some of the high level athletes doing things, but it’s really not meant for them. Those are guests or some of your coaches. It really is meant for the everyday athlete that’s just looking to get a little bit better for longevity purposes.

Steven Sashen:

So how long do people come for?

David Durante:

It’s a full week long. So we got here last night. Our coaches will get here on Saturday, which is in a couple of days. Campers arrive on a Sunday, and it’s a full week long, and they leave on the following Saturday.

Steven Sashen:

How many people typically?

David Durante:

Participants, we cap it at a hundred. We normally have between 180 and 100 participants. It’s normally about 150 people total per camp.

Steven Sashen:

That’s a great number to have for a lot of reasons. Obviously you have enough coaches, people are still getting all the personal attention they need, but that community is a really big deal. And I imagine just for everyone, seeing people at different levels is very helpful as well. The people who are very new to the whole idea, feeling whatever encouragement. If it was a smaller group, and you were a real beginner, and there’s a bunch of people who are a couple steps ahead of you, it would be really depressing. But you’ve got enough people that that gets mitigated. And I imagine the people who are more advanced have the opportunity to start mentoring those other people as well.

David Durante:

Without a doubt. We set it up as a great informational week, and that’s what my thought process was. 11 years ago when we did our first one, let’s try to get great experts into a space and see if we can get an awesome informational week. And it’s turned into an experience. It’s way more than what you learn in the stations. It’s the people you meet, the bonds that you create. Creating a situation where you can get away from your cell phones, and all the craziness that’s going on in the digital world, and be present with someone in person. We don’t have enough opportunities for things like that these days. And camp has allowed for it. And I absolutely adore it.

I have two little baby girls, and I always say that camp is my third kid. And my Power Monkey kid is 11 years old right now. And I’m just so fortunate and grateful to see what it’s turned into. And the campers, I feel the same way. We have campers that have come back five, six, 10. We have one camper that’s come back 15 times. And it’s not because the information drastically changes. It’s because she feels at home here. She feels like the campers and the coaches are part of her family in the same way that we do. So for us, camp has become so much more than the information. It really is a special experience.

Steven Sashen:

I’ve said this thing for a long time. I said it’s important to get comfortable being upside down, because it’s just one of those things, when you have that in your repertoire, it just changes way you think about almost anything. And it also feels really good too. There’s that. So that was a prelude in some weird way for if somebody has never… I’m trying to think of how to ask this even. If someone doesn’t think of themselves as particularly coordinated, or maybe all they’ve ever done is gone for a run, or gone for a swim or something, but they don’t think that even just the idea of moving better, now that we’ve been talking to gymnastics for half an hour, seems a little intimidating. If somebody comes in with no experience whatsoever, what are the kind of things they’re learning over that week? What do they walk away with?

David Durante:

It’s pretty wide-ranging. So gymnastics is just three of the stations. So there is a ring station, a bar station and a handstand station. I teach the handstand station. And we always have jabs at each other, at coaches, saying that each of our stations are the best, and that’s the one that you’re going to do. But I really feel like gymnastics is such a great foundation for anything else that you want to go on to do. And I think most gymnasts will feel that way. In fact, USA Gymnastics slogan of “Begin here, go anywhere,” is something that resonates really well with me. Because I don’t hope that anyone just goes to the Olympic Games. That shouldn’t be the intention for stepping into a gymnastics gym for the first time. It should be, how can I use this as a foundation for whatever it is I want to go on to do physically?

And so I’m always promoting body awareness, and what we call creation of body shapes as a good foundation. It should be a main takeaway of what camp should be for you. Can I get my body in the shape that I need for future skill development, or how I’m going to apply it? So one of the main things that I want people to get away from this week is, okay, do I have a strong core? Or what’s limiting my core? Because I think creating good shapes is based around two things. One, a strong core, and two, a more mobile body. So we do a lot of things around saying, “What are your limitations, mobility wise? What does your core engagement look like? Everything that encompasses your midline, not just your beach muscles, not just your abs and your hip flexors and what you can see in the mirror, but rotation and lateral work, obliques as well as posterior chain. Do I have a strong core? Do I have a mobile body? Can I create good shapes?” And then go ahead and apply it to whatever these other stations you want to go ahead and do.

Steven Sashen:

I imagine you hear from people after they’ve left camp, and the things that they’re then doing that maybe they hadn’t done before or didn’t think they could do before. What are some of those stories?

David Durante:

Oh, it’s endless. It’s really endless. I always get the handstand stories, because that’s the station that I teach. So I got my first handstand hold. I was able to hold it for a minute for the first time, or I was able to walk across a floor for the first time, or I got my first press to handstand. And so we get endless stories of people succeeding incrementally in all of the different spaces. “I PR’d my snatch, or my overhead squat or whatever. I am trying to do my marathon for the first time, and I’m using the running techniques that you guys taught me,” and the pacing, and the breathing techniques that come along with what we do at our running station. And so we’ve had so many success stories that it’s really hard to pinpoint one that’s worth highlighting, but really, every one of our stations has led to someone being able to achieve something a little bit better, because of the expertise here.

Steven Sashen:

I just realized that the first time I walked into a CrossFit box, maybe just out of sheer curiosity, I don’t remember why. Their whole pitch was, “We’re going to make you a better athlete.” And I was saying, “I’m not trying to be a better athlete. I’m a sprinter. I’m trying to get that much faster. I just need tenths of a second, and that’ll change my life.” They said, “No, we’re going to make you a better at.” “I don’t think you understand. I don’t need that.” But the irony is that I would argue that what you’re doing is more foundational and valuable in terms of creating a better athlete, at whatever level you think that means for you than walking into a CrossFit box, where they’re throwing you into situations that most people aren’t ready for, in my opinion.

David Durante:

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things that we’re trying to alleviate within the CrossFit space, because one, there’s so many CrossFit gyms. And some of them are doing things really well, and others are doing things very poorly. And I think that that’s the crapshoot of the gym that you walk into. And also, CrossFit is meant to become fairly good at a lot of things. You’re looking to become an expert in one vertical, become a sprinter, to become incrementally better in that particular space. CrossFit isn’t really meant for that.

CrossFit is, can I lift a lot of weight? Can I become good on my hands, and do gymnastics work? And can I become an athlete that has an engine for days, and become moderately good across the board so that I can attack any type of physical environment relatively well? But again, it comes down to whose coaching you, how they’re approaching things, and you never know what you’re going to get. And so we’ve always been like, “Hey, this is amazing that millions of people around the world are now interested in our little niche sports.” Instead of saying, “Hey, you’re doing it poorly,” let’s figure out a way to help.

So we’ve always looked at it as an opportunity to say, “Hey, we want to get you guys better so that you become better at CrossFit workout. You can become better, if this is something that you really want to dive more deeply into it.” So CrossFit has been something that I’ve always gravitated towards, because the passion that I have for teaching and showing people what a cool sport gymnastics can be, and also the founder of CrossFit was a gymnast. And I know that he always envisioned gymnastics being a bigger part of people’s physical endeavors. For me, it’s just a way to help build the sport of gymnastics and men’s gymnastics, and teach people that it can be part of your longevity fitness journey. It can be something that you can do much later into life, even though you probably think now that it’s not possible.

Steven Sashen:

It is interesting that were it not for CrossFit, there wouldn’t be as many people interested in muscle-ups. And if it weren’t for when I was between 18 and 20, I did this for a while. Anyway, my first time in New York City, I moved up there for a summer to be a street performer, and would go to Central Park and find a handful of kids who were tumbling. And it was mostly kids from the boroughs, or from Harlem. It was people who were not trained gymnasts, but came out and figured it out. And we would just be doing crazy, crazy stuff in the park. It was really, really fun. And that in many ways evolved over…

My God, that was a long time ago, that was 40 something years ago. That evolved into this whole calisthenics movement as well, which also has done this interesting give and take with gymnastics, where they’re doing some insane stuff. And again, introducing people to movements and activities that you would never think about doing, because you go out to literally your local playground, and you’ve got an entire gym there. And simultaneously, they started doing moves the gymnasts started adopting that have actually made it into the code of… I can’t think right now. My brain is crushed.

David Durante:

Code of points. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Points. That was the word I couldn’t find. I don’t know why I couldn’t find the word, points. I got code of. I was so close. But regardless, that’s another thing where, there’s more people doing planches right now. And if people don’t know what a planche is, imagine doing a push-up, and then just lifting your feet off the ground. Easiest way to describe it. So your body’s parallel to the ground supported by your hands, which just seems insane. My God, dude, when I was doing gymnastics at 19, up until ’84, the number of people who could do a planche on rings, you could count them one hand. And now if you can’t do that in high school, you’re nothing. It’s insane how those things have evolved. So it’s kind of funny that there is this crossover, this mainstream specialist crossover, but it hasn’t really, have you seen that it’s brought more people into a gymnastics gym? Or it’s just that it’s more interesting around the more mainstream fitness-y world, or just people’s awareness and consciousness?

David Durante:

Unfortunately, I haven’t seen the effects in terms of boys entering the men’s gymnastics world quite yet. It’s something I always keep an eye on. Fortunately, the good news there is that what happened in Paris has had a positive impact in terms of-

Steven Sashen:

Always the case-

David Durante:

Signing up. It always is I think this particular year, because we’re getting a little bit of an extended push, an extended, Nedoroscik being on TV, the pommel horse guy as he’s known, getting some headlines. Post-Paris has been helpful for signing up of men’s gymnastics. And women’s gymnastics does very well, and there are no shortage of girls wanting to grow up to be the next Simone Biles. But we don’t have as many boys programs that are capable of creating high-level gymnasts. And they take up a lot of gym space. It’s expensive. The coaching is difficult. And so we’re seeing a lot of boys programs go by the wayside. And also, the NCAA side is a conversation in and of itself.

There’s only 12 programs left. If we lose one more, NCAA will probably drop men’s gymnastics altogether, which is such a shame, but I’m trying very hard to use this platform that we have within the functional fitness space to be able to say, “Hey, gymnastics is something that maybe you want to put your kid into. Go to a collegiate meet, go watch Stanford, Oklahoma, Penn State, Michigan, whoever these top teams are. If you’re in that town, go watch them compete, support them, show the NCAA that men’s gymnastics is something that actually can continue to grow.”

Steven Sashen:

It’s interesting. So we support the Olympic artistic swimming team. And one of the things I said to them, we started talking with them right before Covid actually. And in fact, during Covid, I gave them some ideas for making artistic swimming, formerly synchronized swimming, more popular. I said, “You’ve got to make it more accessible in some way. When the women are in the water, no one knows who’s who. You all basically look the same.” There’s not a there there. And it is kind of an odd sport in general. So it’s like, do something to make it so that people just want to hang out with you guys. So I gave them two ideas. I said, “One is, do a synchronized swimming thing, but it’s everybody at home in their own homes, in their bathtubs, and just do something there. Or when you can get out, do routines as you’re going down a slip and slide. And more, find one or two women on the team who just happen to be the ones who they’re the life of the party or whatever it is, where people are going to relate to them, personally.”

And women’s gymnastics has had the great gift of Simone Biles. Because beyond being one of the greatest gymnasts of all time, she has that personality. She was able to take that on. I don’t know how much of that is natural, versus just her willingness to go there. In track and field, it was Usain Bolt. It was Carl Lewis before him, and nothing in between. And men’s gymnastics, it’s funny that the person who’s bringing the most attention to gymnastics is doing the most difficult event you could possibly do, which no one’s going to show up and go, “Hey, I want to do Pommel horse.” And if they do, they’re insane, but good on him for being willing to go there and bring some attention to the sport.

And you always need someone to relate to. My God, look, when I started Xero Shoes, I explicitly didn’t want my face on camera, because I’m thinking, if we’re going to sell the company at some point, I don’t want to be attached to it. And what happened, I’d make a video. It’s like, “Hey, I’m Steven Sashen. Let me show you how to make a pair of sandals.” And then it’s 10 minutes of people looking at my feet, making a pair of sandals, which by the way, still leads to some very interesting phone calls that we get.

David Durante:

I can imagine

Steven Sashen:

“Can we get some more videos of Steven’s feet, please?” So a bunch of that happens, and I’ve only made a fortune doing that. So that’s the thing that gymnastics was lacking. It was Kurt Thomas in the day. It was really Bart. It was Kurt. That was it. So that’s one of the fundamental problems. If you’re not living in a place where wherever you’re living supports the sport in general, then you need a standout personality, even more than a standout performer. And ironically, I’m ranting just because you made me think of this, men’s gymnastics has the other problem that fundamentally every event, you have to be pretty stoic until you stick a landing. And that’s a whole new phenomenon, of celebrating the moment your feet hit the ground. So it’s an attempt to make things a little less robotic, if you will. Not really.

David Durante:

Yeah, I think you’re right. It’s not the easiest thing in the world to be able to show personality and still perform at a high level. But these athletes today are doing the best they can to elevate their personal brands, and showcase their sport in new ways, and be able to cross-perform with calisthenics and with all of these other niche sports that have a bit of a presence. I will say, I just want to mention, because I think it’s worth people understanding that maybe there is a way to help grow the sport. There are some new colleges that have been starting to incorporate men’s and women’s programs. As an example, Simpson College just a couple of years ago, started a men’s and women’s program for the first time, which we’ve been slowly chipping away at these programs.

And NCA ADs have been just saying it’s not a worthwhile budget piece to implement. So they’re just getting rid of it rather than adding. But we’ve been recognizing that there’s certain colleges in the country that are enrollment driven. And enrollment driven colleges are in a place where if we can show, if a gymnastics coach can come on board and say, “We can bring 20 kids to this school that are willing to pay to come to the school, to have an opportunity to do gymnastics,” that means that gymnastics has filled 20 seats, and has brought in tuition of 20 potential students. So this is an incredible new avenue that enrollment driven universities and colleges have been interested to bring on gymnastics programs, because there is the possibility of filling out their student roster that way. And so we’ve been in discussions with some of these schools to do something interesting next year, and to do a little bit of what you’ve been talking about, try to create this form of comparison.

So I’ve encouraged, I’ve tried to put together, it’s still in the very initial stages, but this idea of putting together a strength challenge, where instead of competing and doing pommel horse routines, these athletes against each other, colleges, will do strength challenges, and do handstand holds for time, or do max handstand pushups. Things that the everyday calisthenic athlete or CrossFit athlete are doing in their own gym, so they can see what a gymnast is able to do at the same time. So they can say, “Oh, my God. I can’t believe a gymnast held a handstand that long. I know what I’m trying to do.” And now we’re seeing them do it at a competitive level and actually compete against each other. So this is, again, an initial phase of saying, “Is there a way that we can use these collegiate gymnasts and their competitiveness, in a way that’s a little bit more attractive to someone that’s not understanding what the Code of Points is putting out there.”

Steven Sashen:

I’m going to say something that started out as an economic thought, and into something much more comical. It’s like, I think whoring out gymnastics is a great idea.

David Durante:

Whatever’s going to help grow the sport, I’m into it.

Steven Sashen:

But where the initial thought was, I think that’s a brilliant idea to present this as an economic benefit to people, rather than some moral high ground, whatever, of the importance of athletics or whatever.

David Durante:

Unfortunately, economics dictates everything.

Steven Sashen:

That’s what drives it. Yeah. That’s what drives it, so I think that’s really brilliant. And it’s something that’s somewhat ironic, thinking about, again, like my high school career, if you will. They killed the men’s gymnastics programs in the entire county that I was living in soon after I left, because they hadn’t figured out a way to monetize it. And we were taking up a lot of space, and a lot of time that other sports that have more attention, and would bring in people who are willing to pay to see that, for example. So yeah, it’s always about the cash. Look, even I went to Duke, and I didn’t compete in college. You and I talked about that, but I still worked out with the team. They had a women’s team, and I worked out with them.

And they had a losing football team for my entire four years there, and for many years before and after, but that was still the money driver, or one of the two, basketball obviously being the biggest. But football still drove revenue, even though they had never won a game, practically. So to make gymnastics something that could be a revenue driver, even at a small scale, as long as it’s you cash flow positive, that’s totally brilliant. Good luck with that.

David Durante:

Oh, yeah. Good luck is the only thing that we really have in our favor right now, because…

Steven Sashen:

And I don’t that sarcastically. I mean-

David Durante:

No, I understand.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

David Durante:

It’s very challenging, and in fact you brought up basketball and football. Those are really the only two revenue generating sports in the NCAA at all right now. With NIL part of the equation now, it’s upending everything. I think we’re kind of a wild west right now in terms of what’s happening, athletes being paid as employees. I don’t know if you saw this. This week, something interesting happening. University of Tennessee is starting to add in on their ticket prices for their season tickets for football. I don’t remember the wording of it, but essentially there’s a 10% increase. That’s to pay for talent. So there’s an increase that the fans of the team have to pay, to now pay for the talent, to pay for the NIL contracts for these athletes. So it’s getting put onto the viewers and the fans, because the athletic departments can’t pay what these guys are asking for anymore. So I have no idea what’s going to happen. It’s totally a wild west right now with NIL.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, no. We’ve had some high school kids say, “I want to get 10 grand a year.” It’s like, what?

David Durante:

Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

That’s not a thing. I can point you to some Olympians who didn’t get paid 10 grand a year from… So-

David Durante:

Amateurism is officially dead.

Steven Sashen:

Well, obviously good news, bad news about that. It is important to recognize if you are putting in the work. Congratulations, I got a qualification that I’m never going to use, and I probably didn’t even go to most classes. I’m not saying this is true for all college athletes, of course, but there are some who are definitely there on a…

It’s funny, I went back to my 40th college reunion, and was talking to my cognitive psych mentor who I’ve stayed in touch with all these years. And she had a student who was a basketball player, very, very good player, who basically was trying to decide if he was even going to stay for his senior year, because was offered so much money to go to the NBA. And he just was sitting there in class and did nothing, didn’t even lift up his hoodie. And she finally just pulled him aside and said, “What’s up?” And he goes, “Well, I’m just here to get the credit, and I don’t really get it.” And I don’t remember how she said it, but she basically spent an hour just explaining how cool what they were doing in that class was. And he just hadn’t noticed, because he wasn’t paying attention, and it lit him up.

And he stayed for his senior year, went to the NBA, was thinking, “I think when I’m done with this, I’m going to go back and get a master’s degree.” So it also takes the right person on the other end of that equation to engage athletes and have them want to be there, independent of the fact that they’re getting a free ride, or they’re getting a stipend, or whatever their NIL deal is. There’s a guy here at the University of Colorado who’s making $2 million a year already, and that’s just not right.

David Durante:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Colorado is… In Boulder? Is that where you’re at?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

David Durante:

Yeah. It’s one of the marquee place right now with the Sanders Family, and obviously Dion. It is one of the main plays right now where we’re seeing the numbers. LSU with Livvy Dunne down on the gymnastics side, and some of the other, Arch Manning down in Tennessee, or in Texas. So there’s a few that are just the powerhouses right now, that are able to make seven, in some cases, eight figures, which is crazy to think about. But if it’s allowing these athletes to be able to become financially sound, and it’s something that’s allowable, then you can’t fault them for wanting to pursue those.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, no. And look, let’s be honest, for many of these sports, you’ve got a limited lifetime.

David Durante:

Yeah, it’s a window like this. It’s tiny.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. And the only thing, actually what bugs me about the NIL stuff, and sorry for people who don’t know, it’s Name, Image, Likeness. So that means amateur athletes are getting paid so that their name, image and likeness can’t be used without compensation, or at least their permission. And the thing that makes me anxious about this, is simply that these are people who are, most of them, so young that their ability to understand the limited time window that they have, and what they need to do financially to take advantage of that in a way that they are possibly set for their life. That rarely happens, even when someone gets out of college and is starting playing professionally at 21, 22, we see it all the time. People who just don’t know what to do with all that cash, and then end up broke. This is an opportunity to do something really valuable, that I haven’t seen people really considering that in a thoughtful way, which is just a shame, because if all you’re going to do is blow it on a new Lamborghini, who gives a crap?

David Durante:

Yeah, financial literacy is definitely a component of it all. And I would just say that this conversation is one that’s important to have, but in reality, growing the sport should be the main goal. Giving more opportunities to athletes, so the next generation still has the same opportunities that this current one has, and that we had when we were coming up and competing at the collegiate level, I think that’s really important. So anything that we can do to make sure that those doors are still open, scholarship-wise or non-scholarship-wise, just having the opportunity to continue to compete, I think is important.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I agree. So backing up to Power Monkey and backing up to people coming to camp, if people want to find out more about doing that… And sorry, you run, we talked about a week-long program. I lost track of, are you doing multiple weeks back to back? Or is it-

David Durante:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

David Durante:

So just to give a quick understanding of the other things that we do. Camp is basically like our Hallmark event. We do two a year, one in the fall, one in the spring. We host other events. So we’re traveling around the world, going to gyms, and doing weekend courses, about 25 to 30 weeks a year otherwise. And then we host a couple of higher end fit vacation retreats in Europe. We’re doing actually one in South Africa for the first time this year.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, wow.

David Durante:

We’re in Crete, Greece. We we’re in Sicily, Italy last year. And so we do the higher end, smaller group type fit vacations as well, plus our digital component. We have an app where we highly recommend people checking out the Power Monkey training app. It’s in the iOS and Android store. And it’s a great way if you come to an event, as a way to supplement your training. What’s next? How do I continue working with you guys post camp retreat or course? And so those are all the pillars of what’s going on within the Power Monkey network.

Steven Sashen:

Brilliant. And not surprisingly, you’ll be found at? Give the URL.

David Durante:

powermonkeyfitness.com. And then camp itself has its own URL, powermonkeycamp.com.

Steven Sashen:

Anything else people should know about finding out more about what you’re up to? Or more importantly, what they can do with what you’re doing? Because this is interesting now that I think of it. What you’re providing, a lot of people that I’ve talked to, they’ll have a course, or they’ll have something, but it’s kind of… I’m trying to think of how to describe this. What you’ve laid out is really a change in what someone thinks they can do for their rest of their life. Maybe I’m just being a little biased. What the hell? Probably. But regardless, this is a big thing.

That’s where I’m going. Where we started, this idea of discovering the fundamentals of what your body can do, and what you can do with it is everything. And many people that I end up talking to are, let’s say one step removed from that. Even if they think they’re doing fundamentals, I would argue that it’s not often as complete as the program that you’ve described. So I hope people check it out, obviously. And I want to hear from people when they do, because this is a wonderful thing. Actually, wait. I’m going to go full circle. How did you even decide to do this?

David Durante:

Yeah. So I’ve been coming to this facility for over 20 years. I have been a special guest in the summers, helping out the kids during the kids’ gymnastics camp for years and years. And I always loved coming here. John and John are very close friends of mine, so I always enjoyed being at this location. And I used to go to a gymnastics camp when I was growing up. I used to go to the one that’s been around, probably the longest International Gymnastics Camp, IGC out in Strasburg, Pennsylvania. And so I knew how impactful going to a camp was, a week long camp, and the memories that I created, and how incredible that was when I was a kid. And I said, “Why can’t we try and do that with adults? Don’t adults want to act like kids all the time?” And create some more adult type activities and same type of atmosphere.

So I had the idea to put this on. And we took a huge swing back in 2014 to say, “Hey, does this make sense?” Or it was 2013. I can’t even remember at this point. And we put our first camp on, and there were 30 participants and 30 coaches. And nobody wanted to tell anyone around it, because they were like, “We got one-on-one attention the entire time. It’s incredible.” And so we were like, “No, please go and tell people.” And they were like, “No, we’re the only ones that can ever come back to this thing.” And it slowly grew from there. We didn’t make any money the first year, and we were like, “This could be something that’s really worth pursuing.” And it went from 30 campers, to 40, to 50, to 90, to 100, and we’ve been in a pretty good place since. So yeah, it was just because I’ve come to this location so many times over the years, and thought it could be fun for other people to experience it as well.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that’s great. I actually got hired to perform at a place that thought of itself as like Club Med in the Poconos. And the idea was, it was like camp for adults, but it was really just the biggest pickup spot I’ve ever seen in my life, and I was bummed.

David Durante:

That ends up happening. You get that are all fit in one location for a while, some of this stuff does happen. But if you have any of your listeners that are into fitness, which I’m sure they are and want to escape, they want to go to a location where fitness is highlighted with great people, we’re all like-minded, campus at the top of the list. It really is a special place.

Steven Sashen:

Sounds great. Well, I do hope people go. This has been an absolute, absolute pleasure, Dave. So for everyone else, just a quick reminder, when you get a chance, head over obviously to Power Monkey Fitness and powermonkeycamp.com, and also to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. Again, there’s no sign-up fees, there’s no secret handshake, there’s no song or dance that we do every morning, although that would be very entertaining. It’s just a place to find previous of which there are a couple hundred. And there are different ways you can find us on social media and other places where you can get the podcast, if you want to get it somewhere else. And if you have any requests, or comments, or feedback, complaints, if you think I’ve got a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, I’m open to hearing about that. Drop me an email, move@jointhemovementmovement.com. But most importantly, until whatever’s next, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

A Podiatrist That Actually Endorses High Heels?

marketdomination — Wed, 25 Sep 2024 00:00:26 +0000

As a Podiatrist, Human Movement Specialist, and Global Leader in Barefoot Science and Rehabilitation, Dr. Emily Splichal has developed a keen eye for movement dysfunction and neuromuscular control during gait.

Originally trained as a surgeon through Beth Israel Medical Center in New York City and Mt Vernon Hospital in Mt Vernon, NY, in 2017 Dr. Splichal put down her scalpel and shifted her practice to one that is built around functional and regenerative medicine.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Emily Splichal about the truth about orthotics.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How functional podiatry emphasizes the connection between movement and foot function while using a holistic approach to foot health.

– Why orthotics should be used for healing purposes instead of indefinitely.

– How expensive orthotics aren’t necessarily superior to off-the-shelf options, especially when treating plantar fasciitis.

– Why podiatrists face challenges in integrating natural movement into patient treatment protocols.

– How foot foundation awareness is crucial for balanced posture and gait.

Connect with Dr. Splichal:

Guest Contact Info

Instagram
@thefunctionalfootdoc

Facebook
Facebook.com/dremilysplichaldpm

Links Mentioned:
dremilysplichal.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

A podiatrist that actually endorses wearing high heels. Oh yeah, we’re going to have some fun with this, on today’s episode of The MOVEMENT Movement Podcast. The podcast for people who want to know the truth about how to have a happy, healthy, strong body, starting with the feet first because that is your foundation. And on this podcast we break through the mythology, the propaganda and often the lies that people tell you about what it takes to run, to walk, to dance, to play, to do yoga, CrossFit, lift weights, whatever you do, enjoyably and more effortlessly.

I’m Steven Sashen, but you already probably know that. And on this episode, we’re talking with my dear friend, Dr. Emily Splichal. But don’t say anything, Emily, because I got to say some other things first. And that is if you are new to the podcast, welcome. And if you’re new or old, you know what you need to do is go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find out all the different places where you can interact with us. And of course, share, like, review, hit the bell button on YouTube to get alerted for future podcasts. Basically, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. And being part of the tribe means we are trying to create a MOVEMENT movement, making natural movement the obvious, better, healthy choice, the way natural food currently is. I like to say that Xero shoes, we’re trying to become the gluten-free of footwear, and we want your help.

So back to you, Emily, for the win. I hate doing introductions other than saying, hey, it’s wonderful to have you here, and I’m going to let you tell people who you are and then we’ll talk about this podiatrist endorsing high heels.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I know, right? That’s the way they introduce me. But thank you so much. We will definitely address that soon. I’m Dr. Splichal, I’m a functional podiatrist and a human movement specialist out of New York City. I am in private practice. I was trained as a surgeon, and then I moved very far away from surgical practice and I promote much more functional movement, functional medicine. I do regenerative medicine as well. And in addition, I travel the world speaking about barefoot science-

Steven Sashen:

We only have 55 minutes.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh my gosh. Barefoot movement. And I’m the founder of Naboso Technology. Namaste.

Steven Sashen:

So let’s back up to that first part, which you trained as a surgeon and you moved into functional podiatry. Tell people more or say more about what that means for you, and more importantly, what was your kind of awakening moment that moved you from one end of the spectrum to seemingly the other?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, actually my entire training through podiatry school, I was fighting with what was being taught to me. It was very isolated. None of the patients were getting out of the chairs. Really it was every patient was being told the exact same thing, “You have plantar fasciitis, stretch your calf this way, do XYX.” And I was like, “I don’t know, that just doesn’t fully jive with what I think of with movement.” I actually started in fitness. I was a competitive gymnast for 13 years. So I went-

Steven Sashen:

Hold on. Wait, wait. Have we never had this conversation?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

Dude. I was an All-American gymnast.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Really?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh, we have something else.

Steven Sashen:

What do you mean, “Really?” Like I’m lying about that.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, we’ve never had that conversation. We’re going to have to do that.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah, no, gymnastics is…

Steven Sashen:

We’ll put together a partner act.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, okay. Yeah. So yeah, when I was going through my training, seeing how it was so isolated and then how it got even more surgical focused, that a patient would come in and you would just start to see pathology through the lens of a scalpel, right? “Okay, this is exactly how I could fix it surgically.” Where I was like, “Why do we have to jump to that right away?” There’s always these risks to any surgery. Even a minor surgery, there’s a risk.

So then, actually, I was in my first year of residency, surgical residency, and I left because it was just so contrasting what was in my DNA that I was like, “I don’t even know if I want to practice medicine.” So I left and I went back to school, got my master’s in human movement, and then that connected the fitness movement, gymnastics, with the medicine, and then the reality of like, “Okay, I’m a quarter million in debt. I think I need to get my license one day.” So I went back to residency and I did the surgical training. I had to, that’s only-

Steven Sashen:

Oh yeah, yeah, of course.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah. So I had to go through the motions of doing surgery. I did surgery for five years out of residency, and then I stopped doing it partly because I was just traveling the world so much teaching, but it was also just not my passion. And if you’re going to literally be putting your body in the hands of a surgeon, you want that surgeon to be crazy passionate about it, and I wasn’t passionate.

Steven Sashen:

And even that, I mean, like you said before, when all you have is a hammer all you see is nails. Same idea with the scalpel, of course. And it’s funny, the number of people that I’ve met who I’ve said, “How are you doing?” I haven’t seen them in a while, it’s like, “How are you doing?” “I’m okay, but I’m getting surgery for plantar fasciitis.” Like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What?” “Well, yeah, I got plantar fasciitis. I’m getting surgery.” And I do a thing with them, I’ve done this a few times. Actually, my favorite was a guy who he ran a hedge fund or a private equity firm. He said, “I love what you’re doing, but I can’t invest in you because I can’t wear your products because I have plantar fasciitis and I’m getting surgery next week.” I said, “I got a sneaking suspicion.” Because you know this probably as well as I, someone who has, “plantar fasciitis symptoms,” in giant air quotes, but you can see from a mile away they have super tight calves, and that’s really what’s going on. I spot that one.

I said, “Do me a favor. Can you just stand on your toes, just lift off of your heels and just stand on your toes?” He says, “Yeah.” And I said, does that hurt? He goes, “No.” I said, “Yeah, if you had real plantar fasciitis, you wouldn’t be able to do that. Can you just run in place just staying on your toes?” And he does it, he goes, “Yeah.” I said, “Does that hurt?” He says, “No.” I said, “Do you know why?” He says, “No.” I said, “Well, because keeping your plantar fascia in a strong position, you’re not straining anything right now. Can you just lean forward while you’re doing that up and down thing?” He leans forward and starts running and just looks back and goes, “Oh my God.” I said, “Yeah, so you don’t really have a problem if you know how to move correctly.” And he looked at me kind of crazy, and this is not the only time that I’ve had to say this. I said, “Yeah, just because I look like this doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about.” He went and had this surgery anyway, which just floored me. And I’ve seen that happen a few times. It blows me away. Because people they think the doctors know. Most of these times doctors don’t know how to diagnose. But that’s a whole sort of separate thing just about that.

But I want to back up. I’ll say something and then I’m going to ask you something. The saying something is, your story actually reminds me, I don’t know if you’ve ever asked Irene Davis how she went from teaching PTs how to make orthotics to becoming the preeminent researcher in natural movement. I said, “What was your come to Jesus moment?” And she goes, “It was actually just a process.” But one of the biggest thoughts that she described having was that when people came in to see her as a PT, for almost anything they would come in with, her goal was to get them moving as quickly as possible for every joint, except anything having to do with feet and ankles. And she’s like, “Wait a minute. That doesn’t make any sense.” So it was a similar thing of something just doesn’t jive, but I need to back up even further. Why podiatry? Because the only thing that seems weirder to people to say, “Hey, I got into this particular area of medicine,” would be if you had said proctology. So why podiatry?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh my God, my reason is so ridiculous. I was in fitness and I was training. Well, one, my background is also forensics. So my bachelor’s and the original path I was going to take was going to be like CSI. Forensics. I had a free ride for a PhD in forensic science. And I moved to New York City to do that. So I was in the lab, pipetting DNA, everyone’s out, it’s gorgeous, it’s summer and I’m like, “Oh my God, I hate my life. All this with pipetting.” And then I decided to leave it and do something more like full body fitness movement because that was my original passion. So I quit, became a personal trainer, still in New York City, New York City, and then I started getting injured. So I was like, “Okay, well, I can’t use my body as my tool. I need to use a little bit more up here.” Started looking at medical schools and applied to All Allied Health as well.

But the stipulation was I need to be able to still do a little bit of fitness because that just fed my soul. And I needed to live in Manhattan because that fed my soul. And then really what that left was there’s only a handful of schools that are in New York City that I could be in Manhattan. The podiatry school here in New York is in Harlem. So I was able to still see clients, still live in the city, have that part of me and my spirit of who I am, while pursuing that degree. So it’s really not a passion.

Steven Sashen:

You have the added bonus if you’re going to school in Harlem of looking like everybody else in the neighborhood.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

There you go.

Steven Sashen:

So I went to Columbia for grad school, and same idea. And I used to love hanging out in those neighborhoods. So not only All-American gymnast, but in 1980, when I first moved to Manhattan, I was one of the handful, I think there was four of us who were white break dancers.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh wow.

Steven Sashen:

That was a whole other story. This had been when break dancing was actually a thing that people did instead of fighting. So it was a blast. That was a crazy-ass time. So we led with this whole thing. You became well-known by promoting a program for women who want to wear high heels. And this was the whole thing of, “Podiatrist endorses high heels.” I will let you have free rein to clear the air so that people don’t want to come and strangle you.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, I know, please. I know. I was like, “Oh, man, we’re going to start with that.” There’s already people who want to tear my name apart. But so, Catwalk Confidence is a program that I started in 2009, so I was just graduating podiatry school, had been in fitness for a long period.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, and let’s pause. This couldn’t have been more perfect timing because this was when the whole…

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Barefoot.

Steven Sashen:

… barefoot like kids thing.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

100%. 100%. So launch this program, but it was a workout and it was a workout for women who wear heels. The workout was barefoot.

Steven Sashen:

Yes, but you’re still endorsing heels, Emily, come on.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I know. Honestly, the endorsement of, “Podiatrist endorses heels,” even though I wasn’t, I was just saying, “Hey, if you’re going to wear heels anyway, I’m going to give you the tools to how to strengthen your feet, strengthen your core, align your body so you don’t mess it up as much as you might kind of blindly wearing these heels every day.” And then I created a program called Stiletto Recovery, which was the recovery side of how to undo the damage. The New Yorker Magazine did a story on me and this program, and it was very much like, “Podiatrist endorses high heels.” And in the story, they were like, “Oh yeah, it’s analogous to drug users and you’re giving them needles.” I’m like, “Oh yeah, it’s exactly that.”

Steven Sashen:

Holy cow. That’s great.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I’m like, “That’s a good analogy, thanks.” But no, I got ripped into. I had the dean of my school pulled me from several speaking engagements. I got hate email from other podiatrists saying, “You’re an embarrassment. You’re single-handedly ruining this profession.”

Steven Sashen:

Hold on. That’s ridiculous. If it weren’t for high heels, half of those people wouldn’t have been in business anyway.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, I know. I know. But I got some serious hate mail and just shit from it. But I got on Oprah from it.

Steven Sashen:

Whoa.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

So I got that engagement and then was on The Doctors and the Today show, because of this program.

Steven Sashen:

Well, getting on Oprah, it couldn’t be more perfect for podiatrists and dorsal high heels. I have a friend who’s a big deal psychologist who’d been on Oprah a number of times. And I said to him, “So how do you prepare for being on Oprah?” And he said, “I think of the most innocuous thing that I possibly teach, and then I think of the most incendiary way I can possibly say it.” I said, “Well, give me an example.” He said, “Okay, here’s one that I did for Oprah. Having an affair can be the best thing that ever happens for your marriage.” And so that was how he’s introduced, and the audience goes insane. And his whole point was that if you have an affair, it’s clearly that there’s some glitch going on, and if you acknowledge what that really is that led to this, this could be the kind of thing that transforms your relationship. And they all go and calm down. But it’s like you’ve got to do something that’s going to be the key moment.

In fact, it’s funny you just reminded me of this. When Lena and I were on Shark Tank, when we taped the show, and actually you still see it on the show, Barbara Corcoran’s opening line to me was, “You know, I hated you from the moment you walked out here.” And what she said and what you don’t see on the show because they edited it out, she spent five minutes saying how much she hated me from the moment I walked out. And then she spends five more minutes saying to Lena, “How can you be married to him? What’s wrong with you that you’re married to him?” And all I kept thinking is, “Oh my God, this is such good television.” It didn’t end up like that.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Bring it on. Bring it on.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that would be the perfect lead. It’s like, “Oh my God, I hate you.” So that was awesome. So it’s an interesting thing. I mean, look, this is kind of funny because while the podiatry community may have gotten up your butt about that, I can’t imagine it’s any less so when you’re endorsing natural movement. So you just went from frying pan to whatever the fire to frying pan or whichever way that goes.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, no, so when I then was like, “Okay, yes, this is a barefoot workout and let me make it more applicable to the wider audience,” then I kind of switched the branding to be, “I’m a podiatrist just said endorses barefoot movement. I’m anti-orthotic. I’m anti-supportive shoe,” all of that, which is very polar as well, not as polar now in today’s age as back then. But I still had same thing. My skin was thick and I was like, “Hey, I’m the black sheep anyway from the high heel thing. Let me just go with it.” My MO is just to be the black sheep within podiatry. I got tons, tons and tons of shit when I first started speaking the natural movement and the barefoot. Same thing, people would question and say stuff about my name and whatever.

Now the younger generation or people who are just a little bit more open are now integrating or emailing me and say, “Hey Emily, how would you approach this? Can you tell me a little bit about what you do?” And they see that I’ve built a practice in Manhattan and I don’t take insurance, and my referrals are around the world. People fly in to see me because of what I’m doing. It’s not voodoo. I’m not making it up. I have great results with my patients. And they’re starting to see that now.

Steven Sashen:

There’s a guy that I met, I’m blanking on his name. His first name is Darryl, but I can’t remember his last name. He’s a podiatrist. He’s one of the sort of, let’s call it, top orthotics guys in the country, which I know is a bit of an oxymoron in the barefoot natural movement community. But point being, he’s one of the people turn to about how to do that and how to do that better than average. I mean, when I talked to him about how he actually does diagnose people and who he does and doesn’t prescribe, he’s way more rational than almost anybody that I’ve met. That said, there’s two things that were fun. One is he told me a story of a podiatrist he knew who went to Kenya in the ’50s or ’60s to study the army, who did a lot of their training barefoot because they didn’t have shoes. And his report was basically one sentence, “A podiatrist will go broke in this country.” And he was trying to make the point about the value of natural movement, which didn’t go over very well.

The other thing that was fun, this was at the International Footwear and Ankle Biomechanics Conference last year. So I put him in a pair of our Prio, floating back there, and he’s walking around and he says, “Well, what do you see?” I said, “Well, what do you feel?” He goes, “Well, these feel really good.” I said, “Well, then what I see is kind of irrelevant, but I’ll tell you what I see. Your right foot is pronating a little more than your left when you’re not wearing your orthotics in my shoe. But you haven’t noticed. So A, the problem? And B, if you want to develop strength, that’s the way you’re going to have to do it is by using your feet.” And he looked at me like I was crazy for a moment and was like, “Oh, yeah.” And then actually he goes up to Irene Davis and says, “I got these shoes and I really like them. I think I’m going to wear them with an orthotic.” And he was saying that to see if her head would explode. And her response was, “That’s cool. Just start shaving it down, shaving it down, shaving it down until you get rid of it.” And he’s like, “Huh.”

So I love the idea that this whole… It’s so crazy that we have to promote that natural movement is good. It’s just insane. And I’m curious if you have any understanding or have a historical basis, how did the podiatry community get so far opposed that to get so far into the whole posting orthotics, et cetera, where everything is somehow pathological? Because I have a friend who studied to become a physical therapist, and she would call me every day when they were doing foot and ankle going, “Did you know that this whole orthotic thing was made up by a chiropractor who had no evidence for it whatsoever?” It’s like, “Yeah.” So what’s your take on how it got where it is and what might have to happen for it to become, ironically, for podiatrists to put themselves out business mostly by realizing that for most of what they’re treating, natural movement is a better option?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Right. So there is, sadly, when you go to podiatry conferences and within school and just kind of the whole energy within the profession is a little bit fear based. And it’s a profession that’s on the defense. And partly why they’re on the defense is that so many podiatrists have a Napoleon complex because they’re like, “Oh, I’m a DPM because I couldn’t get into MD school.” So they start to get this weird complex. And then even if they’re surgeons, they kind of feel like in the OR, “Well, I’m the foot surgeon. I’m not the…” So it’s just constantly within their own ego and their own thing.

Steven Sashen:

Fascinating.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

So having that, you kind of have to then be like, “Okay, I’m kind of in survival, so I need to think of how do I keep my patients? How do I get more out of these patients?” There’s tons of lectures around practice management and the profitability of orthotics, that it literally is every single patient should have an orthotic. If you see 20 patients a day and you can do, let’s say, five orthotics a day, what is that, 25 a week? And you get a $500 profit on each one, blah, blah, blah. You do the math. So really put in. And then the younger generation essentially is fed that garbage and then thinks, “Okay, for me to make money, I need to see this as a moneymaker. So I have to push it.” And I’ve seen that through when I was part of a larger group. Now that I don’t take insurance, I’m on my own thing, I don’t care. But they would incentivize us for every orthotic I would make, every MRI that I would order, every ultrasound that I would do. Any additional billing that I could do, I would technically… That’s probably totally illegal.

Steven Sashen:

Well, what’s incredible.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Wrapped up in that.

Steven Sashen:

Look, I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but what you’re saying is going to feed people. Anyone who has the line, “Well, Western medicine…”

Dr. Emily Splichal:

It’s so dirty. It’s so dirty.

Steven Sashen:

You know whatever it is when they use the phrase, “Western medicine,” is never going to be good. But I mean, this is what people think happens. To hear that that’s actually what happens, holy smokes.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. What I will say is that medicine is still a business. And people don’t realize that or people don’t want to think that.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and there’s another thing. I mean, I have this conversation with people often when they criticize, quote, “Western medicine,” as if that’s an actual thing. They go, “Well, Western medicine doesn’t know how to do everything.” I say, “Well, if you go see any good doctor, they will never say that they know how to do everything.” They’re going to say, “Here’s what we’re going to do to try and figure it out.” But what most doctors are treating most of the time is that 80% of things where they can actually make a difference. And that other 20%, that outlying stuff, you can’t know everything. And these are complicated, confusing things, these crazy-ass bodies. There aren’t simple answers for a lot of this stuff. And we want simple answers, and we want someone in authority, ideally, I don’t know why a white coat means authority, to tell us something where we just know what’s happening.

It’s something I noticed about myself. I am in a way much happier if I see a medical practitioner for something where they go, “Oh yeah, you have this thing.” And it’s undeniable, you see it on the films, and it’s like, “Oh,” the sense of calmness because it’s been diagnosed and there is a treatment protocol is a real thing. I’m actually going through it now because I’ve got a compromised spine. In fact, later today, I’m going to get an injection into my lumbar spine just because I’ve got clearly all this inflammation going on. I’m relatively convinced that it’s not going to help for various reasons, but it’s what I’ve got to go through for my insurance company to pick up the tab on the things that I might need later. So now I’ve actually got the funny thing where it’s not giving me that sense of calm because I know what’s going to happen next is I don’t really know. At the same time, I’m taking the appropriate steps. So we have this weird relationship with simultaneously wanting an authority figure to give us an answer when there’s not a simple answer, and then not trusting them if they give us a simple answer.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I know. You know, one thing with my patients is what I’ve always done from the beginning is very much go through my thought process. So when I’m evaluating, I’m trying to get to a diagnosis, especially in the beginning when I was younger, new kid on the block, I was a little like, “Ah,” just fresh out, I would go through every possible thing that it could be and why I’m ruling it out. And I would say it out loud to the patient, partly to educate them, but also want to protect my ass so they wouldn’t sue me.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

So that’s the energy of medicine also is that you can be sued. That’s the reality to it. Now I do it very different, and I go through it more for the education because I’m much more confident, and obviously you just been around the block a little bit more. But then when I go through all my treatment options, I just say, “These are all of your options. These are the benefits of them. And then there is surgery down here. I have to list it as an option. And I can’t tell you which one to do. You have to make the decision for yourself. I can give you the benefits of each and the risks, but ultimately it’s your decision.”

And they totally want me to be like, “Well, what would you do if it’s your foot?” Well, you know… You have to do that to really put it in the patient’s hands. In some cases they don’t like that. And I’ve been to doctors or I’ve had patients that will be like, “Yeah, one thing I knew, and then all of a sudden I’m getting this injection.” And then they didn’t know, the process was just happening faster than they could even comprehend. And I don’t like to create that energy with my patients.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a tricky one. I just had a flashback before I went to the World Masters Track and Field Championships, this is nine, 10 years ago, I suddenly had this weird thing in my foot. I just felt like a little bump, and I didn’t know what it was. It was really painful. I went to the… I don’t know where I went. Anyway, they took some films and it literally looked like, I don’t know what the geometric term for a square rectangle, so not a tube because it’s square edges, but I mean literally it looked like square. And it was like, I don’t know, maybe two, almost two… No, no, I was going to say two centimeters, that’s not right. Almost 20 millimeters long and three millimeters kind of square. It was this crazy thing. It looked like an alien implant. And the doctor’s looking at it going, “Yeah, I have no idea what this is. I don’t know what’s causing it. I don’t know what to do. What do you think?”

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh my gosh.

Steven Sashen:

And I said, well, I can’t have surgery now because I’m about to leave for an international track meet. So let’s just revisit this in a little while. And I forgot to add this part. It happened in one day, it just showed up. And then a couple of weeks later, it disappeared. No idea. Absolutely no clue. And I actually sort of liked the story of it, because it was just a real conversation about, “We don’t know. We got to try and figure something out.” And it was just an honest conversation. If I had seen certain kinds of practitioners, I won’t label them by profession to protect the not necessarily innocent, they would’ve said, “Oh yeah, well, I know exactly what it is. Here’s what you do.” And then six weeks later, it might’ve gone away on its own anyway, and they would’ve claimed that it was because of that, when that could have been totally a placebo.

So Lena might kill me for telling the story, but I’m going to tell it anyway. She was seeing every sort of alternative care practitioner she possibly could because she was having just some bad period cramps for most of her life. And then finally after seeing a guy for a while and paying him a lot of money, and he just threw his hands up and said, “Well, you’re clearly not following the protocol.” And if you know Lena, if someone gives her a protocol, she is on it. She just does the plan. And she got really mad and he said, “Well, why don’t you go see this internist?” It was the first time she had seen an actual MD maybe ever. Not ever, but certainly for a long time. He does her blood work and says, “You’ve basically got no progesterone. Why don’t you just take this pill and see how that feels?” And the next day she goes, “Well, I’m fixed.”

Dr. Emily Splichal:

That was easy.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. And just had no idea. So just the whole conversation about how medicine does work compared to how people think it should work is the part that I find so compelling, especially in a situation like yours where you’re bucking the status quo, or more accurately trying to change the status quo, which is what we’re all trying to do. And hopefully, I do think you may be right that it’s these kids today who are going to be the thing that moves it, because they’re not walking in with the same kind of preconceptions. Or they’re walking in with a kind of anti-corporate mentality that makes them open to, “Maybe what this guy’s saying, we don’t have to write off everything, but maybe we can think for ourselves and look at reality.” And obviously the natural movement story is simple. Your feet are supposed to bend and move and flex and feel, let them.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah. The other thing is that I get podiatrists who see the way that I treat, they understand the natural movement, they might even do it themselves, but they then say, “How do you integrate this into your treatment for your patients?” They can’t connect that dot or that bridge where I’m like, “I just include it in literally every patient’s protocol.” If I do give orthotics, which I do in some cases, I always then include, “Release your feet on a natural basis, use correct toes. Get into shoes that are naturally moving this way. Get sensory stimulation,” and try to have it be part of the bigger picture, which is what obviously all these other docs should be doing as well. I think physical therapists do a really good job with that.

Steven Sashen:

What’s the glitch for them? How do they not see this as something to do?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I don’t know. They just don’t know how to integrate it. Almost-

Steven Sashen:

You know… Go ahead. Go ahead.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I was going to say almost I do a lot of stem cells in my office. And when I was part of my other group where there were 10 of us doctors, I was the one that was doing most of the stem cells. It’s a fee-for-service injection, so it’s not covered by an insurance. It’s 750 plus per injection. And they were like, “How are you selling this?” And I was like, “Well, one, I believe in them. Two, I just include it with all of their list of treatment options. And because I believe in it, I spend time explaining it and educating the patient.” If you don’t, one, believe in it, which is what you were saying, if you don’t believe in the stem cells, you don’t believe in natural movement, then you’re going to have a harder time integrating it into the recommendations to the patient. Because I feel like the patient can tell if you’re like, “Oh, yeah, and by the way…”

Steven Sashen:

“Could do this thing.”

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I would hear some of the docs be like, “Oh yeah, and by the way, do this short foot thing.” And they’d be like, “Short foot?” And they’re like, “Yeah, Google it.”

Steven Sashen:

Right. Well, there’s a weird variation of that. Back in 2010, I was part of a panel discussion about barefoot running, and every medical practitioner on the panel had no experience, they’d never run barefoot. In fact, at one point I just said, “If you’ve run barefoot on the pavement for at least a mile, raise your hand.” And I was the only hand that was up. And these guys are giving advice, it was horrible advice, it was ridiculous advice, based on not only no experience… And I’m not suggesting that every doctor has to have the experience of what they’re telling you about. But they weren’t referencing anybody who ever had experience with this. One of the guys was saying, “Well, it’s going to take two years until you get strong enough to be able to run barefoot.” It’s like, “Well, who do you know who spent two years training for this? You’re just making this shit up.” Which I found utterly amazing. And people were nodding their head and going, “Whoa, back up.”

So the trust thing is definitely a part of it. And of course, it works the other way. People can be very confident about things that are iffy at best. I’m curious, just to take a tangent on the stem cell thing, I’m curious what your experience/the response rate has been. Because I’m just thinking of the people that I know who’ve had stem cell treatments for various things, where some of them have great results, some have had no results. I remember I had my shoulder put back together a couple of years ago, and when I did, people said, “Oh, you should have gotten stem cells.” “You should have seen the MRI of my shoulder. It was not really hanging onto the rest of my body at all. It needed to be reconstructed, not just injected.” So tell me about that. I would love to hear your experience.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, so I had been doing stem cells. I started with PRP and now I do placental and umbilical cord stem cells. I’ve been doing them for the past five years.

Steven Sashen:

I nave neither placenta nor umbilical cord.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

You don’t need one to have that. So don’t worry.

Steven Sashen:

Can I get one on eBay?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Donated placenta. Donated placenta. You don’t need to preserve your children’s or your newborn stem cells. You don’t have to do that. But essentially they are donated stem cells. And my success rate with them is around 90%.

Steven Sashen:

What kind of things are you treating?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

For plantar fascial tears is one of the highest.

Steven Sashen:

So I want to pause there. So for actual plantar fascial tears, which you’re diagnosing, I want to separate that from what most people will call plantar fasciitis, which often is something totally different.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

So I would have a confirmed partial tear of the plantar fascia, yes, via MRI. So it’s confirmed. That’s one of the most common pathologies that I treat. Different ligament injuries. Plantar plates is a huge one as well. So under the second toe, you can tear the ligament, which is called the plantar plate. I do a lot for that. Different ligaments in the ankle, tendons, fractures. So there’s different things. And my success rate is 90% because of the patients that I choose. So I will not do it on anyone.

Steven Sashen:

Well, what you just described in the list of things that you’re treating is mostly soft tissue damage.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes, outside of a fracture, but I don’t see a lot of factors because I don’t do acute care in my practice. But yes, so it’s primarily soft tissue injuries. You can use them for knee arthritis, shoulder arthritis, foot arthritis, meaning the big toe and the ankle. They’re just slightly different joints than the rest of the body. So the success rate of those is much lower. I’ve had some patients try to have them done for their midfoot and they have midfoot arthritis. I’m like, “They’re taking your money,” is essentially what it is, because the success of that’s not going to be high.

But part of my 90% success rate is the patients that I choose. So I’m very specific. And then two, my post injection protocol is very important. So let’s say a partial tear of plantar fascia. I’ll do two injections, so one injection two weeks apart, so two injections total. And during that entire period, they are in a CAM walker. So I have to immobilize them during that period. They can do soft tissue release to the calves, but they cannot stress that area. After the four weeks, they transition into a stiff sold shoe. HOKA is what some patients will choose. It’s just an example. Doesn’t mean I like it. But it’s just a example.

Steven Sashen:

I’m just saying it’s a four-letter word. That’s all.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

It’s just an example. I totally said that because that shoe is my example. But a stiff shoe, and then we do a night splint and we slowly start to decrease them out. I will put a lot of them in a orthotic as well. And then the third month, we start to strip away the support and the control. But let’s say it was a runner, a runner that had a partial tear plantar fascia, I would say you would expect being back at your same kind of distance or stress of your foot within five, six months.

Steven Sashen:

What I love about what you just described is actually the way that people should, and by people, I mean all people, should think about orthotics or posting or anything where you’re mobilizing a foot. It’s like if you have some sort of real damage. And when you’re doing the injection, I mean basically they’re already damaged to begin with, and the injection is kind of a piece of that puzzle. It’s like you need to heal. It’s like use it for healing, then get out. And what you just described is a very obviously sensible protocol for dealing with an actual injury, actual damage, and then making the transition back by getting stronger and getting back into it. And it’s something that people just don’t get.

I don’t don’t know if you’ve ever seen it. I have a post on our site. Oh, I’m trying to remember. If you go to xeroshoes.com and search for orthotics, you’ll find it. I know I have a shortcut for it, but I can’t remember. And it’s mostly reviewing an article that was probably in the New York Times. It’s written by one of my favorite science writers from the Times because she’s A, brilliant, and B has my favorite name in the world. Her name is Gina Kolata. And Gina did this great thing about orthotics showing that they only work for about 10% of the population. No one knows which 10%, no one knows why. And a custom-made orthotic is no better than a Dr. Scholls insole.

But there were a number of people in there including probably Benno Nigg from Canada, who said, “Yeah, you’re supposed to use an orthotic to help with rehab and then get out of it and start moving again.” And most people just forget that second part. So I love the protocol you just described. People should basically apply that to almost any other situation they’re in when they have a real injury of healing, and then building up into strength again instead of pretending that you need to continue to support something over and over and over.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, that New York Times article, I do remember it, but I will go back because I want to reference it and pull it and then share it again with my network is, I just did a presentation Monday to a group of pedorthists, so shoe prescribers, I guess if you want to… People who feel shoes.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, they make shoes and they have a orthopedic bent to the way they do it.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Right. Yes. So when I was speaking to them, and I was speaking to them the way that I think of footwear, but I had shared with them about orthotics and plantar fasciitis, just specifically that condition, that there’s absolutely no difference between a custom orthotic and a off the shelf prefab, yeah. And that was, one, that they’re not prescribing orthotics, but that’s interesting that you had mentioned that. And then I had seen another recent article around that, that is just like for these podiatrists that are trying to sell 500 plus dollars orthotics for plantar fasciitis, there’s no research.

Steven Sashen:

There’s no research. Well, here’s my favorite thing about even the Dr. Scholls insoles. They did something that is the most brilliant, and by brilliant, I simultaneously mean evil, marketing thing I have ever seen in my entire life. If you go into Walmart, or I think they have them at Target too. So Dr. Scholls made this kiosk where you step on a force plate and it tells you, “Here’s something about your foot,” and it’s going to prescribe one of the dozen or so insoles that they have hanging right next to the thing. Here’s the brilliant marketing thing. After you step on this thing, it says something like, “Please wait while we calculate which product is right for you.” And then there’s a ten second countdown timer. It’s a computer. It doesn’t need 10 seconds to figure it out. It just literally makes you think that it’s thinking about you and giving you some personal recommendation because you’re a unique snowflake, one of 17 snowflakes that are on the wall next to you. And it really makes you go, “Wow, it’s really thinking about me.” And of course, the joke is the ones it custom recommends are twice the price of the ones that are just hanging right around the corner on the shelf. It’s unbelievable.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Mind you, by prefab, because I have to clarify this for any of the listeners, prefab, I do not mean Dr. Scholls. That is a four letter word to me.

Steven Sashen:

Oh I know. No, no. But just going back to the buying something off the shelf.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

But no, I will tell you the ones that are some of the best off the shelf is PowerStep.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, really? Because?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

PowerStep.

Steven Sashen:

I heard the what, I want to know why. Why you think they’re the best?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh, sorry. The placement of where they put their arch and how aggressive or not aggressive they are. So they’re just kind of middle of the line with the arch height, so the correction that they’re trying to achieve, and then the materials that they use. So the control that you get, the resiliency, and then the fit for it. Where some of the other ones, Dr. Scholls uses very cheap materials and a lot of silicone-

Steven Sashen:

What a shock.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I know. Surprise. But some of the other ones like Superfeet, and there’s just so many of these other ones. Everything has to do with the placement of where the arch is and what they consider to be their standard of control of template.

Steven Sashen:

My favorite thing just about the whole… Well, about orthotics in general. My favorite thing is it’s the same prescription for two totally different diagnoses. You have flat feet, you need an orthotic, you have high arch, you need an orthotic. It’s like, wait, wait, back up. How does that make any sense whatsoever? I mean, I can maybe come up with an argument for how it may. But I’m having a really hard time. I can’t think of any other example where you have two totally different presentations that give the exact same prescription.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah. Well, I’ve been practicing for 10 years and I’ve never written orthotics, custom orthotics for a high arched foot.

Steven Sashen:

Ooh, interesting. So considering that there’s so many people, I think people who have high arch feet, even more than flat footed people, think they need support. Why do you think that is? What the hell and why have you never done that?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

So a high arch foot is typically thought of as more rigid. So now you’re going to put a rigid insole-

Steven Sashen:

Thing on a ridge… Yeah, yeah. I know.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Into rigid. And then most likely they’re going to go into a rigid shoe. So I was like rigid with rigid with rigid, that just makes no sense. Your goal with a high arch foot is typically more in the direction of let’s mobilize, let’s get them kind of moving-

Steven Sashen:

Oh, no, you’re preaching to the choir. But this is one where even more than someone, I just can’t figure out how they got this idea that they need to, exactly, rigid on rigid on rigid.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah. I mean, that’s why I have no idea. I’m just like, “Why would you ever…” I mean, I pull every high arched patient who has orthotics out of them, which doesn’t make sense. If you were using, let’s say, a plastazote or a kind of these softer materials and you’re saying like, “Oh, the rigid foot hurts the person because it feels like they’re walking on their knuckles, so let me cushion that foot,” that would be a valid argument.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, that’s interesting actually. It’s funny because in that situation, what you’re doing is giving some protection to the places that are getting higher impact forces. You’re not supporting the thing that’s causing that problem to begin with, which again, would make more sense, but that’s just not what people do and buy.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, which is why I’m just like, “I have no idea why.” I’ve never ever, and I will never, because it doesn’t make sense. There’s some research around like a plantar fascial offloading technique that you can use with arch supports, but with custom orthotics with a supinated high arched foot. But I much rather go through myofascial release and soft tissue work and mobilize the hips and that way.

Steven Sashen:

I want to back up a giant step because I don’t know why I just remembered this. I heard, I don’t know if this is true, but I heard that some major chiropractic organization is sponsored by an orthotic manufacturer. And so this is partly why all these chiropractors are trying to get everyone into an orthotic, not only because they’re taught, “Here’s an additional way of making money,” but I mean it’s really indoctrinated because the overarching organization that they belong to, that’s what they believe. In a similar vein, the American College of Sports Medicine, one of their biggest sponsors is a footwear company. I shouldn’t mention their name. So it rhymes with Spladidas. And there’s a rumor that I was asked not to come back to this year’s American College Sports Medicine event because of things that I said to them last year, which was just things like, “Hey, for all those claims you’re making, do you have any proof?” Which didn’t go over well, apparently.

But I find it really funny, there’s actually an article about how to pick a running shoe from the ACSM that basically recommends getting something like what we do, getting something that lets your toes spread, that actually lets your foot move, I mean, all the things. But then there’s a few things where they kind of couch the language, I think, just to not upset their corporate overlords. So I don’t know how much influence Spladidas’ business model it has over the people who are in the ACSM. And I wonder about the orthotic thing for chiropractors. Is there anything similar like that on the podiatric side where there are-

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, of course there is.

Steven Sashen:

Oh my God.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Remember, medicine is business.

Steven Sashen:

I remember, but I just don’t expect it to be top to bottom.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. So the shoe that is one of the biggest sponsors for the American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine and the APMA is New Balance. So New Balance is the recommendation, that literally when I was going through school and then through residency and rotating through different residencies, so I was still a student, but hearing more than just my circle speaking, they would be like, “Oh, yes, you need to get shoes. New Balance, New Balance, New Balance, New Balance,” every person. And I was like, “Do you know other manufacturers than New Balance? Do you like New Balance for yourself? Do you think for yourself?” And then the same frustration of you have plantar fasciitis, stretch your calf by going against a wall and you… I’m like, one, I hate that calf stretch because you don’t position the calcaneus right, you’re actually not even stretching.

Steven Sashen:

No, it’s going to be soleus if anything. Yeah.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, you get your post tib, and then you can irritate someone’s post tib tendon. I was like, “Think, don’t just vomit out what you were taught in school.” And that’s usually what everyone does.

Steven Sashen:

This is an interesting point. So Irene Davis and Bryan Heiderscheit and Chris Powers do an event for therapists called The Science of Running Medicine, and it’s an opportunity for them to get CEUs and for them to learn about what these three people in particular are thinking about the cause and treatment of running related injuries. And Irene has a amazing protocol for diagnosing what’s going on and then treating what’s going on by doing gait retraining and various other things. And I said this to Brian, I don’t remember if I’ve told this to Irene. I said, “The challenge with what you’re doing is that you’re requiring the practitioner to have a really good understanding, have really good eyes, basically, to really be able to see what’s going on and understand what’s going on well enough to do a good diagnosis and then create a very personalized treatment plan. And those two things are either, at the very least, difficult to do, time-consuming to do, but for some people not possible because some people just don’t have good eyes, they just don’t see movement well. Or they see the effect, but they don’t understand what the possible causes could be. They don’t look further up the chain. And this is a problem. You’re asking people to be smarter than they possibly are.”

My dad was a dentist and his line, he says, “You know, the people who graduated in the lower 50% of the class were in the lower half of the class, and they still became dentists. I would never go see any of them. They’re not good practitioners, but it still says DDS after their name.” Or actually the joke is, what do you call the guy who graduated last in his med school class? Doctor. This is another interesting thing just about the whole medical profession, if you will, is that in any profession, the majority of people who are doing it are not going to be the best. They can’t statistically. And then we’re asking them to do things that not only can they maybe not do, but they probably don’t know they can’t do it.

So here’s the crazy-ass question. How do we change this? What do you see as the way to move forward? I open up every one of these episodes by talking about creating natural movement is the obvious, better, healthy choice. How do you see that happening? Because obviously, we have this goal. What’s your take on that?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

What I can say from a podiatry level is that it has to start changing within the schools the way that the next generation of podiatrists who obviously work with feet. So that’s a lot of the people who buy your shoes or purchase any footwear are getting recommendations from the internet, from movement specialists, from people who support natural movement. But then they’ll go to the doctor who will say, “No, you have this and you should never be barefoot. You should never…” So they get the conflicting information. So we need to stop the conflicting information by educating-

Steven Sashen:

Okay, so good luck on that one. But anyway.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I know, exactly. But as much as you can, so that the 95% trend of what’s said within the podiatry community is the same old structure, you need to have a little bit of an openness to the role of natural movement, the role of barefoot stimulation.

Steven Sashen:

So that’s where I was going actually in my thinking is the only way the school is going to change is if there’s enough people who are responsible for the curriculum getting the value of what we’re talking about.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Exactly.

Steven Sashen:

We’ve got to back up a step, yeah.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. So I approached where I went to school. Now every school is very different. And the other thing with medicine that the listener should understand is that medicine is very historical. It’s very political, and it’s very historical. So the New York School is very traditional. New York City people this it’s like a liberal city. It’s actually very, very, very conservative medically. So the way that hospitals are managed, the way that schools are run, what’s actually taught is very, very conservative. So that means that they don’t deviate outside of the box very well because it just rustles them and they shake, they get nervous. And it’s people who are 80 years old that are still running a lot of these programs, even though medicine has changed from that. It’s slowly trying to change that. I approached my school-

Steven Sashen:

Well, I find it disturbing that what you’re subliminally suggesting is we kill a whole bunch of old doctors.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

I did not say that.

Steven Sashen:

That’s what I said, subliminal.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Right, right, right. Exactly. So what I went in speaking to them about what they need is not just a barefoot lecture, but a lecture on fascia, like the fascia lines, the integrated movement, how your feet and your pelvic floor connect to each other. Podiatrist who treats feet technically treats movement, and that’s what it actually needs to be changed. So anytime I speak at a podiatry conference, I actually start by saying, “I don’t treat feet, I treat movement.” And I have my first slide. We as podiatrists don’t treat feet. We’re not foot doctors. We treat movement. Our access point to correct movement is the foot. But you have to start changing your mindset as well and know that you have a bigger influence than, “All they treat is the nails.” And like the shitty part of the body. It’s just-

Steven Sashen:

I hate to break it, that’s called a… I just can’t think of the word. What’s someone who does your damn nails?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Pedicurist.

Steven Sashen:

Thank you. Yeah, you’re saying to all these doctors, “You’re a glorified pedicurist.”

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes, or chiropody. I mean that’s what chiropody is.

Steven Sashen:

Chiropody. That’s a good word.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Chiropody is the historical initiation, or starting point of podiatry is we were chiropodists first, which was nails and skin and calluses and all that stuff.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, that’s hysterical. I had no idea. Fascinating.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, and then it evolved to podiatry, and then podiatry evolved to be more like podiatric surgeon.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

So it’s become a wider, wider scope. But ultimately at that, even if you were still treating calluses, people get calluses and I know why they get a callus, because based off of how they’re moving. Movement.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly. Well, speaking of movement, we have to move onto something and do two things. One, I don’t want to leave before we mention the project that you and I are jointly doing. And I actually have a sample. Wait, hold on. I have to reach. I’ve got to get off camera to do something. Okay. So would you describe what you have created with the Naboso Technology, and then I will hold up the project that you and I are doing together.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. I will hold up the box here.

Steven Sashen:

The box.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. So Naboso is the first and only textured insole that is on the market. This is the texture. It uses two-point discrimination.

Steven Sashen:

So hold on, for people who are just listening, basically think flat thing with a bunch of bumps on it.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah, pyramids across the entire top of the insole. And those pyramids-

Steven Sashen:

Pyramids, you’re part of the Illuminati.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

What was that?

Steven Sashen:

I said your pyramids, that means you’re part of the Illuminati.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Oh, yes, you know.

Steven Sashen:

More conspiracy theories.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Exactly. Exactly. Don’t take it down that rabbit hole. But the two-point discrimination stimulates the feet to help increase your foot foundation awareness. The more that you can reconnect to your foundation, that translates to balance, posture, gait. We have a lot of people, if you’re thinking of a disconnection with your foot leads to foot fatigue, foot pain, a lot of the stuff that we were speaking about. It can be used for many reasons, but the very rewarding part that I have is when someone hasn’t reconnected to their feet in that way for years because of their shoes, or maybe they have some sort of medical condition. And to have them just light up because they can feel their feet again, that’s so powerful.

Steven Sashen:

I’m going to do a Emily to English translation.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Sorry.

Steven Sashen:

So when you sent me these, and I’ve told this story in other places, including on our website where we talk about this product, you originally sent me this product to check out. And by the way, Naboso is a Czech word that means barefoot. And when I received it, when you told me about it, I was preparing to let you down gently and say, “I’ve tried all these various reflexology insoles and sandals and things, and they don’t really do anything for me.”

So I got them and I put them in my Prios, and I walked around for a couple of hours, and I could definitely feel that I was getting more stimulation than I would if I was just in any shoe, including our shoe, which does give you a lot of stimulation. And it was like, “Oh, that’s cool.” And then I took them off, because I spend most of my time at the office barefoot. Then I’m around and I feel like my feet are trying to grip through the damn ground, they were so activated. Everything felt like it was ready to pounce. It was amazing. I really loved it. That has toned down. I don’t walk like that all the time. But it was just so incredible feeling that there was obvious demonstrable benefits from adding this extra stimulation.

And it reminds me, I think we may have talked about this, every, I don’t know, year, year and a half, somebody comes out with some bit of research that shows the value of just basically stimulating people’s feet. They have some vibrating insoles, or the latest one was from the University of Delaware, they put a device around the ankles of people who have Parkinson’s, and it just basically vibrates their feet. And it found that they were able to walk better in these stupid, ridiculously thick, stiff shoes. And my response to that has always been, “Hey, instead of getting all those crazy things, take off your damn shoes and go for a walk.”

And my argument would be, in this case with the Naboso product, that if you are going to wear something, some footwear and you do want more stimulation for the myriad reasons you might, this is an amazing way to do it. And then just to give a segue, so we’ve been selling the insole that you just showed the box of, although our boxes are a different version, that’s the new version of the box. I like it.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

No, no, no. Your version is this one.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, that’s right. Okay.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

And then, so that’s great. We sell those on our website and people love them. But people have also asked, “What do I do if it’s summertime and I don’t want to be wearing shoes and want to wear sandals?” And I’m going to hold up the Naboso Trail, which for people who can’t see this, this is our Z-Trail sandal, our best-selling support sandal, with the Naboso technology as the footbed. So these are going to be out the middle, actually within about a week or so from when we’re recording this, somewhere around the middle of July. So use that as a gauge for if you’re listening to this and finding them on our website. And we are super excited to bring that out and get the results that we expect to get from people who are using that. So thank you.

I’ve got to do this quickly, because apparently there’s a meeting that’s supposed to be happening in this room soon. One thing we didn’t do before, that I usually do at the beginning of every episode, and I got totally distracted and forgot, is something movement related. So do you want to share a movement related, something that we can do in our last minute or two?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yes. So I told you what I was going to do, which I’m actually going to do something different, is how… Okay, sorry. I know. My movement is a simple way to stimulate your feet, core and palate connection. So I’m going to stack the domes in the body. This is a way to get stable. So what you can do is push your toes into the ground, which is technically short foot. You are going to lift your pelvic floor, which is for the sake of time, we’ll just call it a Kegel because it’s just easier. So you’re going to stop your flow of pee while you’re pushing your toes down. And then while you’re doing that, put your tongue into your palate. So your tongue will push into the top of your palate as you do all three of them. And if you do that, especially standing, you should feel like your body is stable. And essentially what I stacked, what I was stacking or lifting are either the bandhas in yoga, they call them bandhas, they’re centers of stability, or they’re the domes of the body.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. Actually, I’m just doing it sitting, but I already feel just how it kind of lines everything up. I like that.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Yeah. And when you put your tongue into your palate, you stimulate your brain stem, the reticular activating system in your brain stem, which turns on your brain.

Steven Sashen:

That’s a good one.

Dr. Emily Splichal:

Movement, posture, brain hack.

Steven Sashen:

That works. Well, A, thank you for that. B, thank you for all the rest of this. C, we may have to do version two because obviously we can keep this conversation going forever, which is what we tend to do. And D, if people want to get in touch with you, how do they do that?

Dr. Emily Splichal:

So I’m on all the social platforms, Dr. Emily Splichal is my website. EBFA is my education company. And then of course, Naboso Technology.

Steven Sashen:

Awesome. Well, for everyone listening, first of all, once again, thank you very much for being part of The MOVEMENT Movement. If you want to find out more, go to jointhemovementmovement.com. You’ll find previous episodes, you’ll find links to where we put all these things. If you have any questions or comments or feedback or someone you want to recommend for being on the podcast, including yourself perhaps, drop an email to me at move@jointhemovementmovement.com. Again, you can like and share and review and hit the bell and blah, blah, blah. The point is, we want you to be part of this movement helping natural movement become the obvious, better, healthy choice. So if you do want to be part of that tribe, please subscribe. And as always, live life feet first.

Ninja Warrior Fitness Secrets

marketdomination — Wed, 18 Sep 2024 00:00:28 +0000

Jessica Lauren Graff is an American professional stunt performer and sports-focused television personality. She has had training in five other martial arts, holds a black sash in Kung Fu, and is a black belt in Taekwondo. She is a champion gymnast, a pole vaulter, and a professional stunt performer.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Jessie Graff about Ninja Warrior fitness secrets.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How becoming more scientific about your training allows you to continue getting gains after years of training.

– Why persistence and practice are key when you’re trying to achieve any goal.

– How Ninja Warriors must attack each exercise with the same amount of intensity.

– Why it’s important to engage the correct muscles to breathe properly.

– How being the hardest worker might actually be preventing you from succeeding.

Connect with Jessie

Guest Contact Info

Instagram
@jessiegraffpwr

Facebook
facebook.com/JESSIEgraffPWR

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

What do you want to do? If you want to become the fittest 50 year old you know? Or 40 year old? Or 60 year old? Or any year old, I don’t really care. We’re going to find out by someone who’s exploring that for herself, but is much more than that. On today’s episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first, typically. Because those things are your foundation. We break down the propaganda, the mythology, and frankly, the lies that you’re often told about what it takes to run, or walk, or play, or do yoga or Crossfit, or be a Ninja Warrior, hint, hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. And to do that enjoyably and effectively and efficiently. Did I mention enjoyably? It’s a trick question, don’t answer. I know I did.

Because if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to keep it up anyway. So make sure you’re having fun. I’m Stephen Sashen from XeroShoes.com, the host of The MOVEMENT Movement podcast. We call it that because we’re creating a movement around natural movement, letting your body do what it’s designed to do, not getting in the way. The way you can participate, it’s easy, it’s cheap, in fact, it’s free. Go to WWW.JoinTheMOVEMENTmovement.com. Nothing to do to join. There’s no secret handshake. hat’s just where you’re going to find all the previous episodes, all the ways you can interact with us on social media and all the ways that you can help us by leaving a review, giving us a thumbs up, a five star rating in the places you can do that. I mean you know the drill. If you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. So let us jump in. Jessie Graff. Hey babe, how are you?

Jessie Graff:

I’m great, but I have a quick question. Could we come up with a secret handshake that it’s not mandatory, you don’t have to do it to get in, but if you’re in, anyone who wants to be in, gets to learn it?

Steven Sashen:

You got to do this.

Jessie Graff:

But can it be a kicking thing? Like kick, kick.

Steven Sashen:

Well, we got to make it … I mean, I’m all for it as long as it’s something that humans can do who are not Ninja Warrior people.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. Okay.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. All right.

Jessie Graff:

I’ll think about it and we’ll work on it in a couple weeks.

Steven Sashen:

Do you know the dance troupe Pilobolus?

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. Yeah. They’re awesome. Circusy stuff, right?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Well, I mean, my favorite thing that I say about Pilobolus is I don’t know, which I like better when I watch them perform, when I can see the physics of what they’re doing, or I can’t see the physics of what they’re doing. Because what they do is amazing. We work with them. They just made a video for us that’s really, really fun. So they’d be great people to come up with a wacky secret handshake too. Someday we’ll get you and me together with the gang from Pilobolus and do some ridiculous things.

Jessie Graff:

That sounds amazing. Where are they based?

Steven Sashen:

On the East Coast. I just remembered last night when I was going to bed, I was literally imagining something as a 60 year old, not dancer, what I could do that would be contributing to what they do. Because there’s some strength things that I can do that are still pretty crazy, like human flag kind of thing. But to do a human flag with a person is very entertaining instead of being on a pole and something. Anyway, we’ll work with Pilobolus one day. Yeah, that’d be a hoot.

Jessie Graff:

Cool.

Steven Sashen:

So, Hey Jess, for humans who don’t know who you are, because there are still some, why don’t you tell people who you are and what you do?

Jessie Graff:

Sure. I have been a stunt woman for 16 years. I work on a lot of really fun superhero shows, and of course getting beat up and killed and abused as we do in stunts. But I’ve also been competing on American Ninja Warrior for, I guess I started nine years ago or something. I’ve beaten a lot of records and placed high among the men. Ninja Warrior is the most fun thing ever.

Steven Sashen:

I am so bummed that didn’t exist when I was younger.

Jessie Graff:

Oh yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Except, I’ll ask you this. So one of the reasons that I’m not a total Ninja Warrior kind of person, even now to the extent that I could be, is so much of the stuff that’s in there is grip strength dependent, and that ain’t my thing.

Jessie Graff:

Yet.

Steven Sashen:

So I imagine it was not originally your thing either?

Jessie Graff:

No, no. Yeah, they used to always say the rock climbers had a huge advantage because they’re the ones just, they trained grip strength all time.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, for me, when I started, I saw these guys doing, we call it a cliffhanger, so it’s maybe an inch and a half ledge where you’re just going along this way and you swing and do gaps. Initially I saw the cliffhanger and was like, “People can’t do that.” Then they all did it. And I was like, “Oh, okay, well that must be easier than it looks.” So I got on one and was like, “Nope. Definitely feels impossible. I’m not sure how that’s happening, but if they’re humans and they can do it, I’m made the same way, I should be able to do it too.” It’s so interesting when you discover a muscle group, even as an athlete, just a muscle group that you haven’t activated, that you haven’t taught how to fire at high levels.

So it took at least a year of really, really training that to be able to start performing at a high level and then a long-term commitment to building and now I’m trying to be more scientific about it so that I can continue getting gains after so many years of training it. But yeah, there’s so many, I think, adults who will try a certain exercise and not know how to fire the muscles and think there’s something wrong with them or that they won’t be able to do it. It’s so empowering to understand that that’s normal and that’s how that works and it’s just a kickstart process of having to teach those muscles how to fire and then they can grow dramatically and you’ll be able to do things that seem impossible initially.

Steven Sashen:

Well, there’s another part to that I find interesting, and this is going to lead into eventually our conversation about becoming the fittest 50 year old woman or a person or etc., etc., etc. Which is just the training on some new strength, whether it’s something as simple as a squat or something like the cliffhanger. I’m trying to think of how to frame this. I can’t think of how to ask the question so let me describe it this way.

Jessie Graff:

Okay.

Steven Sashen:

One of my favorite exercises, and it’s a really important one for sprinters, is the Nordic hamstring curl. And so for people who don’t know it, you’re kneeling, your feet are being held down, and you keep your body as straight as possible, a little bit of hip bend, and you just lower yourself slowly. So you’re just hinging at your knees, lowering yourself slowly.

Ideally, at first you’ll fall on your face, you’ll get to about a 10 degree angle and then fall and eventually you can get down and get back up. I worked on this for a while doing three sets of eight reps, as best as I could do, for three days a week. I just wasn’t making any progress. Then I went down to doing five sets of five reps once a week and within a month, way, way stronger. Now, some of this is because I’m a 60 year old guy, and I think I was doing this about a year or two ago, but I’m 60 now, and it seems like I just need way more recovery after the right amount of stimulation than I thought. By doing it three times a week, I just wasn’t getting enough time to recover and actually get stronger. So what did you discover for you in the early days when you were doing Ninja Warrior stuff and having to develop new kinds of strength about what worked for you and how has that changed as you’ve progressed and gotten older?

Jessie Graff:

Let’s see. Well, my initial training strategy when I decided I really wanted to start getting strong was based on giving myself a challenge. I’d test myself, let’s say pull-ups or dead hang since that’s Ninja Warrior appropriate. So I’d do as many pull-ups as I could. When I started, it was six. I would hang from a cliffhanger as long as I could. When I started, that was a couple seconds, three seconds maybe. So I would do sort of, it takes about 48 hours to recover from a really good session where you’re going to get sore. If you go overboard, it’s going to take longer. But if you find that perfect amount of, you’ve really pushed yourself but not killed yourself, you give it 48 hours, you go again. So I was on this three day cycle where I would go push day, pull day, leg day, and pull day was the big day because that’s where I’m training for Ninja.

So every set I would be going basically to failure because I’m trying to beat last session’s record. So twice a week I’m going to failure. I was able to improve really quickly that way. So at the end of that year, I’d gone from six pull-ups to, I think I was at 22 pull-ups, and my dead hang had gone to, I don’t know, well over a minute, maybe a minute 30 on this cliffhanger ledge. At the end of the year, I had all these amazing gains and then something went wrong and I got hurt. So I had to take some time off and rebuild and was able to rebuild even faster. So in two to three months of, “Okay, now I’m healthy, now I can rebuild, getting ready for Ninja,” three months, I was stronger than ever.

So building backup from zero up to 25 pull-ups and two minute dead hang and competed and then at the end of the year, something happened again, now I’m injured again. I have to take time off and I lose all the strength and had to have stem cell injections and all this stuff. But now, “Crap, I’ve only got three months to recover and get strong and be ready for next year.” So at the end of that season I built back up, I got up to, I think, 38 pull-ups that year. So it was like I kept getting stronger and I was getting strong so, so fast, but I would always get injured at the end of the year. So season 12, it just exploded. If you think it’s bad getting injured at the end of every season, well, this particular season I tore both shoulders, rotator cuff, rotator cuff plus labrum, inferior glenohumeral ligament, cartilage. That’s like everything. Not everything. And my ACL.

So the end of that year, I needed three surgeries, two shoulder surgeries, one knee surgery. That’s a point where you can’t work around it. You can’t be like, “Oh, I’m going to let my upper body recover and get really good at squats and box jumps and everything.” It’s like, “Okay, you’re just grounded. You’re going to do something else with your time.” So the first certifications I went after were nutrition and corrective exercise specialization. The corrective exercise was so amazing. I learned so much about the type of training I’d been doing and how I’m doing my push days for maintenance to make sure I don’t get unbalanced, and I’m doing my pull days to max out and be the strongest I’ve ever been. Does that sound balanced?

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Jessie Graff:

Sure, I’m doing the same number of days on each exercise, but on push days, I’m making sure I keep up with last week, on pull days I’m trying to beat myself every week. So I could do 20 pushups, which is maybe average for an athletic woman. And 38 pull-ups.

Steven Sashen:

Which is super superhuman-

Jessie Graff:

Which is really good for an athletic guy. So I was obviously unbalanced, my shoulders were coming way out of alignment. So that means my peck miner was super tight. Your lat, which pulls down, attaches to the front of your arm. So everything’s pulling here. Everything pulling back was weak because I wasn’t training it. So now my shoulders are here. Now you’re super spinatus that comes through a little tunnel here.

Steven Sashen:

Oh wait, I’m going to pause-

Jessie Graff:

When you raise-

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, so I had an issue with my dog a couple weeks ago where another dog tried to attack my dog and I’m trying to keep that dog away and I had a thought I’ve never imagined I would have, which is, “I might have to kill a dog.” While I’m simultaneously taking my 35 pound built a tank dog on his leash and trying to shove him away. So super spinatus, I know it very well because I tore the crap out of it and I’m dealing with all those things that I can’t do right now. All of this external rotation stuff.

Jessie Graff:

External rotation hurts, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So anyways-

Jessie Graff:

So here’s the interesting thing about the superspinatus. When you think about tearing a tendon, you think about overstretching it and it rips, right? That’s what I always thought. The super spinatus actually is when you raise your arm overhead, it’s getting shorter so it’s not stretched. But because it goes through this little tunnel, it’s getting rubbed. So every time you raise your arm, if you’re in good alignment, it just flows through that tunnel. If your shoulders are rolled forward, which so many of us are not just from doing too many pull ups, but from typing, your shoulders are raised, your pecks are getting tight, you’re texting, you’re hunched over. So now we’re out of alignment. So every time you raise your arm, you’re getting wear and tear as it rubs through this little tunnel.

Now if you’re rubbing like that and weakening this tendon, and then you’re also taking huge impacts like we do on Ninja in the wrong alignment, that’s where it shears and gets cut.

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

Jessie Graff:

So basically learning about this, learning it’s not just about being in the right alignment when I take those impacts, which is important, but it’s about doing all these exercises. It’s not just about doing enough rows to balance my pull-ups, it’s about attacking the rows with the same intensity that I do the pull-ups.

Steven Sashen:

Well I’m curious because, so I’ve had … Look, I know something else about you, you are a former gymnast, as am I. So gymnasts naturally tend to have overdeveloped pecs, internally rotated shoulders. So to a certain extent you might’ve come about that naturally. But one of the things I started playing with to help my shoulders was doing pull ups, but really focusing on just getting that pull part, really getting the back engaged before I did anything with my arms and it really helped my shoulders, so that component too. I mean it’s kind of funny that you’re thinking you have to do rows to compensate for what you’re doing with pull-ups, which is basically just a row from a different angle and if you do it from perspective. So with the … Wait, what was the term you used for what this conditioning was? You were studying nutrition and what did you call it?

Jessie Graff:

Oh, corrective exercise. It’s by NASM, National Academy of Sports Medicine.

Steven Sashen:

So I’m curious, in addition to having that realization about how you were really attacking pull days but not push days, did you discover anything else about the hip bone connected to the knee bone, connected to the whatever bone? So there was something else that wasn’t necessarily your shoulders that impacted your shoulders? Or something else where there was kind of a chain of things that you may have discovered where there was some other link in the chain?

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, yeah. I mean so many. One interesting one is I have some bulging discs in my neck from stunts over and over, of course. But the bulge is that, I think it’s C4/5 is my worst bulge, but I have it at C3/4 as well. But the nerve that innervates your diaphragm, which is your breathing muscle, basically, was the one that’s kind of getting pinched occasionally from my neck injury. Since my diaphragm was sort of atrophying, I was doing most of my breathing with my accessory breathing muscles. Now if every breath is like this now my neck muscles are tightening, which is also pulling my shoulders out of alignment. So a neck injury from 2010 slowly changed my posture, which led to a shoulder injury.

Steven Sashen:

Well I love that you said that because, and part of what made me ask that was something I discovered recently that shocked the crap out of me. So I did a podcast with, I just blanked, Erin McGuire. Definitely Erin, but I’m blanking, I’m not positive on her last name. I’m having a hard time with names lately. One of those 60 year old things. Anyway, she makes a little device, it’s a belt, it’s called the Core 360 Belt. So it’s basically just a … Wait, hold on, I’ve got it right here. I’m going to show it to you.

Jessie Graff:

Does it have tennis balls in it where you feel like your stomach out and make the cylinder.

Steven Sashen:

Yes. Thank you. So here’s the belt. The whole idea is it’s giving you some feedback. So when you’re breathing in, you’re making this cylindrical thing pushing down. What shocked me is I learned how to breathe that way and actually breathe into my back, expand my back as I was breathing. My lower back is doing that thing in between. My shoulders was opening up, my shoulders were not rounding forward, but they were doing something where the alignment changed in my shoulders where everything was just hanging better. So I love that you said this problem with your neck leading to your diaphragm and what that was doing to your breathing. Because I’ve been playing with how the way I’m changing my breathing is impacting my shoulders in a way that I never in a million years imagines. That blew me away. So that strikes me as a corrective exercise-y kind of thing.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, my physical therapist is really into that too. She does dynamic … Whoops, I got this. She does dynamic neuromuscular stabilization and there’s a huge focus on breathing properly. So it’s a cycle too, because once you start breathing like this, now my neck muscles are getting tighter. So my scalenes were always out of control. My sternocleido mastoid, this one was super tight. You could see knots in it. There was a vein or an artery that you could see that was bunched up because everything was so bunched up in my neck, which, how do you think that felt on my actual neck injury? So I’m having constant neck pain, which more and more is pulling my shoulders out of alignment. So it was so interesting when I started trying to breathe properly, if someone says, “Relax your traps,” they’re very different from force your traps to stay down. So I had to strengthen my lower traps and my-

Steven Sashen:

Rhomboids-

Jessie Graff:

Serratus anterior and rhomboids-

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Jessie Graff:

But especially serratus anterior and lower traps because that’s what holds your shoulder blades down. So I couldn’t, even relaxing everything was so tight and overactive here that even if I’m relaxing them, they’re just too short to stay down. So I had to actively pull my shoulder blades down and breathe into my stomach and these muscles, I would get sharp pains on every inhale because they were so tight that they were getting stretched, actively stretched on every inhale unless I allowed my shoulders to come up. So it was a long process of actively, it’s not just relax your upper traps, it’s very actively engage your lower traps and that serratus. It was hard and I had to think about it all the time.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, well because what’ll happen is you get into a pattern and then your brain shuts off the awareness to those things that are tight because it just gets in the loop and you don’t need to pay attention. Just building the neural connections to be able to do that, that’s one part. The other part that I love, what you’re describing, and people misunderstand this quite a bit, is the relationship between strength and flexibility. Where they think flexibility is learning to stretch a muscle rather than one important factor of being strong in the opposing direction. So they think that doing the splits is about just stretching instead of learning how … I don’t know if you ever did this when I was in gymnast mode, I’d sit on the floor with my legs straddle as much as I could and just lift my feet off the ground and just work on basically the quad part of pulling my legs up, which is what allowed me to get the split. So it wasn’t from stretching the muscles, it was from getting stronger in the direction that I was trying to go. People don’t think about that.

Jessie Graff:

At least on a split leap. When I worked on switch leaps, I had to work really actively on contracting my hamstring on the back leg because I could get my front leg up high, but when you’re going switch, switch, I wasn’t hitting a split because my back leg would just drop. So I’d get on the parallel bars and kick my legs and really feel how I had to squeeze my glute and my hamstring super dynamically to follow the momentum and snap it upwards so I could hit that split.

Steven Sashen:

I’ve never thought of this, nor have I ever thought to ask anyone about this, but I remember, so when I was getting out of gymnastics, I was doing ballet and I stopped doing ballet mostly because after a couple weeks I couldn’t find pants that fit me. My legs just blew up. So that was problematic

Jessie Graff:

Screw pants. I wear shorts all the time.

Steven Sashen:

Well I was in North Carolina, it was winter. But I remember doing switch leap and there’s something so amazingly gratifying about that move. I don’t even know how to describe it. There’s just something-

Jessie Graff:

Oh yeah. It just snaps.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I mean because it’s more than just jumping, you’re doing something in the air that’s like fast, and I mean if you do it well, it looks like you’re kind of levitating that. I mean, that’s a really fun one.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I need to work on those again.

Steven Sashen:

Well, so backing up a giant part to our conversation. So in terms of the getting stronger and setting those goals and always trying to improve a little bit each time, which is obviously very important. What else have you discovered about, and let’s just transition into the being a fit 50 year old woman, what else have you discovered, if anything that’s changed over the years about how you train based on either injuries or just things that have changed as you’re gotten older?

Jessie Graff:

Okay, well there’s a couple important things that we might have to-

Steven Sashen:

Unpack first?

Jessie Graff:

We haven’t even talked about knee and ankle and foot stuff because there was just as much discovery there. So yeah, I think part of the issue I had with having all three of these injuries at once is the shoulders were so much more dramatic that I focused all of my attention and efforts into rehabbing my shoulders. An ACL surgery on the knee is a huge reconstruction thing that takes forever to recover. I’ve done that before and it went great and it was amazing. So this time I was all focused on the shoulders and I don’t think I gave my knee the attention that it should have gotten in rehabbing. So much of that is not just like, I mean you don’t focus that much on the knee when you’re rehabbing the knee, they usually focus mostly on hip and glute activation and teaching your knee not to turn inward, but using your glute to turn it outward so that it stays aligned with your second toe.

But in this corrective exercise class, I learned so much about the muscles in your foot and ankle and shin and hip that contribute to knee stability. It’s a very simple test, this overhead squat test where you can look at a person while they do squats with their arms straight up by their ears and based on whether their arms drop or their back arches or their knees turn out, heels come up, feet turn out, you can tell pretty quickly which muscles are overdeveloped and which ones are underdeveloped. So my natural, my feet always want it turn out when I do squats, I know how to force them to stay in line, but by forcing them to stay in line, I now can feel which muscles are tight that are making me want to turn out.

Steven Sashen:

Well let’s pause on that one because I want to give people, this is an assignment to play with. So if somebody wants to try and do this with a little self diagnostic, which is of course, but walk people through what they do, the movement, and what they want to pay attention to, to see if they’re going to find something that’s over underdeveloped or not functioning properly.

Jessie Graff:

Okay, well I would set up a camera that’s going to film you and you’re going to do squats straight on. You might as well look up the overhead squat test online so that you can see it more accurately than if you’re just listening here. But you want to set up the camera first so that you’re not just looking at yourself in the mirror as you do these things, you can look at it a few times. So facing the camera, you’ll basically just put your arms by your head and do a squat, make sure you get down so that your quads are parallel to the floor and stand back up and do this a few times. Then once you’ve done it a few times, you turn 90 degrees so you can see it from the side. Do it a few times there, go to the other side, do it there and turn your back to the camera. Do a few times there. So you want to look at this and-

Steven Sashen:

Wait, I want to pause. When you’re doing the squat, I’m thinking there’s kind of two ways of doing the squat. You’ve got your arms over your head, you can kind of drop straight down and keep your torso pretty vertical or you can really hip hinge and then it’s a different thing. Which should people be thinking about more? So hip hinge for people who don’t know, you want to think about if you’re standing in front of your toilet, you’re sitting back, so your butt is going back before you start going down versus just going sort of straight down like your torso is an elevator. So which one of these, or some variation thereof do people want to be thinking about?

Jessie Graff:

You want your torso to stay parallel to your shins. So when you’re standing vertical, if this is my torso and these are my shins, which obviously your thighs are in between, as your knees bend, your shins are going to go forward, your knees are going to lean forward, your shins are going to bend, and your upper body should relatively lean in proportion, which means your hips are bending.

Steven Sashen:

Correct. Okay, great.

Jessie Graff:

So the tricky thing in telling people how to diagnose this is I don’t want to tell them perfect form before they do it because you want to see what your natural accidental tendencies are. But if you’re self-diagnosing-

Steven Sashen:

Sorry about that.

Jessie Graff:

No, it’s just tricky. If you’re self-diagnosing, then you need to know what to look for. So do it a few times first before you start analyzing it. Then maybe film it again from all three of those directions thinking specifically about, “Are my feet hip width apart? Are my feet staying perfectly parallel, like second toe pointing, perfectly forward? Are my knees tracking over my second toe? Am I arching my back?” So if your hips are hinging a ton or if your arms are dropping down forward, you want to be keeping your arms parallel to your torso. So straight line from your hips to your fingertips. Most people, their arms are going to come forward and that’s because of tight lats usually. What else? If your heels are coming off the ground. So try to keep your heels on the ground. If you try to keep your heels on the ground and you feel your feet wanting to turn out, that’s going to be a really tight lateral calf and TFL, which is the muscle attached to the IT band. There’s a couple other things. There’s so many, and I’m restudying this chart I’ve learned.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I’m thinking, pick the top three to five things that somebody might notice or be on the lookout for. So arms dropping is one. What else?

Jessie Graff:

Especially if we’re focusing on lower body, the big one is, are your knees turning in?

Steven Sashen:

Yep.

Jessie Graff:

Are your feet turning out? Are your heels coming up? Especially considering this podcast, focusing on feet.

Steven Sashen:

Ok, well that’s okay-

Jessie Graff:

Those are huge ones.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. So if your knees start to turn in, your knees start to come towards each other, what’s that indicating that somebody might need to pay attention to?

Jessie Graff:

That you need to strengthen your glute medias. Your aductors may be a little too tight, so the muscles on the inside of your thighs that would pull your legs together. But weak glutes is the big one there.

Steven Sashen:

And pretty common.

Jessie Graff:

Very common. Very common. A lot of people do this and it’s a strong indicator that you’re vulnerable to knee injury.

Steven Sashen:

So there was a time I was driving to have brunch with some friends and there’s a woman running down the street who clearly was an accomplished runner. I mean you could tell that part. Except that her knees were practically banging into each other with each step because they turned in so much. All I could think was, “You’ve figured out a way to run, but you’re glutes are out of whack.” I almost wanted to stop and say, “How long until your next injury?” I mean it’s undeniable that if your knees are really coming in that way when you’re walking or running or even squatting, you’re setting yourself up. Most people have no idea because they’ve never seen the … I love that the opening, your first instruction, “Get a camera.” So many people have not the best proprioceptive skills and where they think their body is different than where it actually is. The only way you discover this is with video and some humility.

I remember a guy, he emailed me and he said, “There’s something wrong with the rubber on your shoes because I wore out the heel.” I said, “Well you’re over striding and heel striking because that’s putting friction in that spot.” He goes, “Well, I don’t do that.” I went, “Well, I mean-”

Jessie Graff:

Your shoes say otherwise.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So I said, “Send me a video.” So he sends me a video and it took me 20 minutes with him on Zoom or Skype or whatever we were using of me drawing on the screen until he went, “Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, that’s over striding and heel striking.” Then I swear to God, his next line was, “Yeah, but I don’t do that.” It’s like “This is a video of you made of you, made by you.” Yeah.

Jessie Graff:

Wow, interesting.

Steven Sashen:

It was just very palpable, very powerful for me to see how long it took for him to see that his body was doing something different than what he thought it was doing. That was just incompatible with his self image, which was fascinating.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, that is interesting. The big one I’m focusing on right now that kind of caught me by surprise. A couple weeks ago I was working on some flips. I have this a layout step out and I was landing right leg first and I was kind of getting a little bit of knee pain. So I did some hops in the mirror. I had a friend actually point out to me, she was like, “Hey, you’re over pronating on your landing whenever you land on one foot.” Even if I’m just jumping off a one foot box or jumping really high and I land on one foot, I’m over pronating, which means I’m collapsing my arch or turning my foot out and collapsing my arch. So I started doing this more often and testing, and over pronating is going to basically cause your knee to turn in and put pressure on your knee.

So I’m watching this and doing hops in the mirror and if I hop really high and land on that one foot, it is so hard for me not to collapse my arch.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Jessie Graff:

So even though I’m doing these static exercises, raising my arch and I’m getting pretty strong there, I haven’t been doing the dynamic training focusing on that. So I’m doing, kind of like what I do with my pull-ups where I’ll do my heaviest weighted pull up to see how strong I can get. What’s the heaviest single one where I compromise form a little to do just what’s the heaviest I can do. Then I’ll do my lighter ones with the cable machine. I do way more reps that way, focusing on perfect form, engaging the right things. So having that stuff in the middle where I’m doing all the fun flips and stuff, but not paying attention to the mechanics of my feet I’ve been putting a lot of things at risk.

So I’m kind of putting my flips, unless it’s a standing back tuck where I’m landing with two feet and it’s a very controlled environment, I’m going back to just doing hops in the mirror and just only go to the height where I can control it. I’m having to focus so hard on keeping my foot in perfect alignment. If I keep my arch up, my knee wants to turn in, if I keep my knee out, my foot wants to … It’s so interesting to see. So when I force it, I feel a stretch in my lateral calf because the tight calf is the thing that’s causing my body to want to work around that. Your body will find, anytime there’s pain, it’s going to be like, “Okay, which direction can I go to avoid this pain?” Then you’re going to have certain muscles that then are going to atrophy so the muscle that should be controlling the movement is getting weaker while something else that’s making up for that is getting stronger and pulling everything out of balance.

So just going through things slowly in the mirror, now that I’m strong in these static situations, now I have to build up into smaller dynamic things and strengthen. So for me, that’s a weak posterior tibialis I think.

Steven Sashen:

This is sort of like when people talk about getting ready for barefoot running, there’s a lot of people who try to make a name for themselves by saying, “Well here’s what you need to be able to do to be able to run barefoot.” A lot of the people who had those, “If you can’t do these 10 things, you can’t run barefoot.” I couldn’t do six of them. They were just kind of making something up. But there are a lot of people who think, “Oh, if you just walk barefoot for a while that’s going to prepare you for running.” It’s like, no, no, no, no, no. I mean there’s a value in walking that’s going to build strength for sure research shows as much as doing an exercise program. But that exercise program, like you said, is not the same as the forces you apply when you’re running or when you’re jumping or when you are doing something that’s more aggressive.

To notice those things that show up under the extreme version of what you’re doing, the far end of the bell curve, that’s where things are interesting. You reminded me, I had Dr. Bill Sands who was the head of biomechanics for the US Olympic Committee. He was given a great humor performance facility views at what’s now called Colorado Mesa University. He would film you at 500 frames a second to see what your form was looking like. I said, “Why that fast?” He goes, “Because you can’t learn anything at anything under 250.” Which I thought was ridiculous. But what happened when he was testing me is my right foot, just before it hit the ground, was turning out. You only saw it in the last frame. So if you were shooting at anything under 250 frames a second, wouldn’t have been able to see that. That was the thing, he goes, “Oh, you got a tight hamstring that at a full extension is pulling your foot that way.” So those little things in those extreme versions-

Jessie Graff:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Super interesting. What’s intriguing to me thinking about this is that there’s so few people that you could go see on your own who would know how to diagnose this stuff, let alone what you could do for yourself to diagnose it for yourself. So doing the overhead squat test is a really interesting one. At some point we’ll have to-

Jessie Graff:

So interesting-

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, see what else we can find that’s for self-diagnosis.

Jessie Graff:

I’m working on, I need to put some notes together because the class explains so well, the online course, explains so well how to administer the test and then gives, “It means this is tight, this is tight and this is tight.” But I always need to see, “Okay, if you’re saying my TFL is tight and that’s pulling my feet out, show me how that connects. I want to see that pulling.” That’s a gap that I have to put the pieces together myself. I saw this great video on Instagram of basically a cadaver leg so you could see all the muscles of just at the knee and as the knee is straightening and bending. You could see the IT band where it connects and how that connects-

Steven Sashen:

Into the hip.

Jessie Graff:

You couldn’t see the hip. But I was having the hardest time understanding how a tight TFL, tensor fascial latte, the muscle that connects to the IT band. The point of the thing was like, “You can’t roll out your IT band because it’s a tendon.” Well there’s a muscle attached to the tendon. It’s just you don’t want to roll the band, you want to roll that muscle. But I was having a hard time understanding, “How is this muscle in my hip turning my foot out?” When I saw this, it doesn’t connect to your knee, it connects to your fibula. So some of your hamstrings, two of your hamstrings connect to the back of your tibia, the bicep femoris, your other hamstring connects to the other side to your fibula and the IT band connects to your fibula. So a tight bicep femoris and IT band are pulling on the fibula, which is attached to your ankle and pulls things out.

So if your two inner hamstrings are weak and your two outer hamstrings are strong, your foot’s going to turn out. Then you don’t have any support that keeps your knee from turning in. So all the pieces came together just seeing this cadaver leg.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and there’s the flip side, which is you can affect negatively or positively your hip and your glute medias in particular with what your foot is doing, which you could be doing voluntarily or habitually. So that kind of thing where goes from one end to the other and you can start on either end is really, really intriguing. So when people talk to me about having flat feet, it’s one of my favorite things to do. I go, “Stand with your feet on the ground and just tighten your butt and don’t let your feet move and watch what happens.” By tightening your butt, it tries to externally rotate everything that goes all the way down to your feet and suddenly you have a little bit of arch and everyone’s like, What the hell?” It’s like, “Yeah, your arch issue is a butt issue.”

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a big part of it usually.

Steven Sashen:

Think it’s a new T-shirt we need to make, Your arch is your butt issue.” It’s very limited run because very few people will care. But I just like the idea of that.

Jessie Graff:

But you can arch your back too. I feel like a lot of people are going to misunderstand. Does that also work? If you’re overarching your back, that’s like a hip flexor issue more than a glute. Well, weak glutes, no. If your hip flexors are too tight-

Steven Sashen:

It could be performance also. There’s a couple things. If you’re arching too much … That’s an interesting one. That balance between your lower back and things both above it and below it, and then of course the flip side, your abs and how that works. It’s an interesting one for me because I’ve got a grade two L5, S1 spondy. So for people who don’t know, that means my lowest lumbar vertebrae is shifted forward 50% from where it’s supposed to be and there’s no disk in between. But the really fun part is the part that would hold that vertebrae in place is not attached to the vertebrae. So I have a pars defect, for medically inclined people. So there’s nothing I can do to pull that vertebrae back in place. So there’s times where a part of my back looks like it’s arched simply because I’ve got a structural issue and I’ve had all these physical therapists say, “Oh, you need to work on your ab strength.” I go, “Put me on any machine and I’ll max it out, that’s not the problem.” So there’s all the idiosyncratic stuff.

That’s crazy too. But the fundamental things, I mean, I like that, it’s as you’re doing your overhead squat test, looking to see what you’re doing with your lower back. I mean it may be for some of these things that just noticing that it’s an non-ideal movement pattern and then just having curiosity to start exploring and seeing what you might need to do to get it into the right position. Or what you’re feeling that feels like it’s a little inactive or too active or something. It may be that our little goal of going, “Oh, when this happens, go take a look at that.” There might be three or four things you need to take a look at.

Jessie Graff:

Oh yeah, very likely.

Steven Sashen:

But I like the self diagnostic aspect.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, and the thing that’s so cool about it is there’s so much pain you can have in your body that feels like, “This is how things are now,” but it can actually be fixed with some strengthening and stretching exercises. There are so many things that can be solved, literally fixed. Or at worst can still be prevented from getting worse by strengthening construction.

Steven Sashen:

I think the strengthening one is highly overlooked. I think people are much more attuned to the idea of, “Hey, let’s stretch something.” But in my experience, I’m imagining yours as well, the strengthening has a bigger impact.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

There’s another part that’s sort of an emotional component that is interesting to me lately. I’ll share this one, I’ll get a little too personal. So I went and got a massage on Saturday and, as is often the case, my upper back and neck is tight and sometimes my upper back’s a little tight because of my lower back issue where my upper back is trying to compensate, blah blah blah. But I had an annoying flashback. There’s a guy that I was introduced to about almost 30 years ago who wanted to do research on stress. He figured, “Let’s not do the emotional part, let’s just look at physical stress.” So he developed a drug, or he modified a drug that he would inject into the muscle spindle fiber, which is the part of the muscle that actually triggers the contraction and it would deactivate the muscle spindle fiber. So you couldn’t contract the muscles around it.

He was just using this to … I mean, I don’t even know if he knew what he was doing at the time. But what he discovered is he decided to inject people in their upper back and neck, or in their traps and upper back because that’s where the muscle spindle fibers are the largest. What he found, much to his surprise-

Jessie Graff:

And overactive.

Steven Sashen:

Correct, and often very overactive. What he found is that when he did this with people and made it so they couldn’t tense their upper back or neck, is that they reported feeling lighter emotionally. Like they were angry about something and now they weren’t. He came to the conclusion that if you are feeling tension in those spots, you’re probably angry about something. The thing you need to do is figure out what that is and address that. So I’m getting this massage and this woman is talking about how tight my back is and for the first time I went, “Shit, I wonder what I’m angry about?”

I’m going to start crying thinking about it. The only thing I could think of, in addition to just the stress of running a business, but it occurred to me on a daily basis when someone is driving under the speed limit in front of me, I would like to have a weapon. What I’ve been doing in the meantime, before I had that realization, was anytime someone’s driving under the speed limit in front of me, I use that as a cue to remind myself to think of at least three things that I’m genuinely grateful for, which makes my upper back relax. So my new mission is to figure this thing out as much as I can given the situation that I’m in. But the emotional component of that is another piece that is interesting and could give some insight into what’s going on. Again, I don’t know if it’s one direction or the other, but usually that extra piece of the puzzle we don’t think about it. I didn’t think about it and I’ve been dealing with this stuff my whole life.

Jessie Graff:

I don’t think about it much either. But I definitely notice that if I get stressed or angry or irritated, my neck hurts way more. For sure.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So that’s a whole other component. So, “Relax and pull them down and back.” So let’s back up to the thing that I teased everybody with at the beginning, and I teased that and I said that because I think someone told me that this is one of your new goals. Do you want to describe what that is and how you are moving towards it by starting by saying, so the goal being, fittest woman at 50? Is that it?

Jessie Graff:

The age is not important. The important thing about the age is that I qualify as a little old lady. I don’t think 50 is going to do it. 70, would I be ideal. But that’s very distant still so it doesn’t register as a goal that I can aim for at the moment. But that’s my ultimate distant thing on the mountain to strive for. So the thing I realized is that I’m all about goals. I am so motivated by goals. If you give me a goal that I’m excited about and I latch onto it, everything turns on fire and I’m like, “I’m going to do this thing. I’m so excited.” I will do whatever discipline, whatever steps I have to take to move towards this goal constantly. I just thrive on every step of that, even if it’s hard.

Every goal I’ve ever had has been, even if it’s long-term, long term being four years or something, it’s always something that’s like, “You have to be the hardest worker, get there fast.” Every single year in Ninja, it’s been like, “You have three months to get as strong as you possibly can. You have a couple years to be as strong as the strongest men on this show.” It’s reaching an absurd level of strength at the expense of overall balance in my body. Yeah, try to stay balanced, try to stay healthy as you can, but it is worth sacrificing any of those things to be the strongest and the best this year. That does not encourage healthy habits, that does not encourage things that will lead to longevity. Now, longevity has never inspired me. It’s sort of like, “Yeah, I’d love to have that, but I’d rather be a world record holder.”

Steven Sashen:

Do you know the Olympic, how to describe this, I can’t think of how to describe it. I’m just going to ask it. This is a question that someone has asked Olympians for decades. If you could take a drug that would guarantee you won a gold medal, but would also guarantee that you would be dead within five years afterwards, would you take it? So before you answer, guess what percentage of people of Olympians up until very recently said yes?

Jessie Graff:

A high percentage? I don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

Like 80.

Jessie Graff:

I would’ve said yes. 80? Yeah. I think for me, looking at it now, I don’t think a gold medal would do it. It would have to be something, have a lasting impact on the world, inspire people for generations. For that, yeah, would I be willing to do that this year and die next year if I could have that kind of impact? Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

I love it.

Jessie Graff:

But one, I’m not going to do anything this year that’s going to have that kind of impact, probably not.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Jessie Graff:

Two, having that as my goal encourages me to train in a way that is not healthy for me long term. So ever since my three big injuries in 2020, I’ve struggled to come up with a goal that would motivate me more toward balance. Yes, I want to be healthy. No, I don’t want to get injured like that again. So I’m trying to focus on balance. But having that vision of what you want to aim for, how could I have a goal that’s not a blaze of glory, but a long-term thing? Being able to do this for a long time is still just sort of like, “Yeah, that’d be cool,” but it doesn’t rival that drive to have that burst of glory. So I found the answer just a couple weeks ago looking at what my mom is doing because, “Cool, I kept up with the guys on some obstacle courses for a while, but have you ever seen a 70 year old woman doing laches in obstacle courses?” If she has a sweater on, you could look at her and be like, “Oh, let me help you down the stairs and stuff.”

Then she takes off her sweatshirt and she’s shredded and she jumps on a bar and does a lache to a cliffhanger. It’s mind blowing. It’s shocking just to look at. But it opens up my mind for, I didn’t know you could get stronger after age 60. I didn’t know you could build muscle. I didn’t know you could accomplish these things. I didn’t know you could have that freedom of movement at that age. Seeing the way she inspires people who look at her, I thought I had five years left of this at best. I didn’t know that you could keep doing this. The way it opens up possibilities for everyone who sees her is something that I want to do. I want to be like that. I want to be that person who’s 70 years old, blowing minds and inspiring the world. So having that visual image of someone that I want to be, it is in the distant future.

But if I want to be able to be that kind of person, it doesn’t mean I have to do bigger things now. It means I have to work really hard to strengthen the areas that I’m weak, that are pulling me out of balance, making me more likely to get injured. If I get hurt, my chances of being a badass 70 year old are going down and I want to be that little old lady who can do 50 pull ups. Like I can’t do 50 pull ups now, but doing 50 pull ups now isn’t going to get me to doing 50 pull ups then. Doing a balanced set of rows and engaging my lower traps and doing pull ups, even if they’re assisted pull ups with perfect form, those are the things that are going to get me to badass 70 year old.

So now that I have that image of what I want to be when I’m deciding, “Am I going to do my hard pull up sets first or my hard row sets first?” Well, I’m more excited about the pull up sets, but if I prioritize the pull up sets and then I’m too tired to do hard sets on my rows, I’m not going to take steps towards being a badass 70 year old so I guess I’ll do the rows first. So I’ll finally have goal that inspires healthier behavior all around.

Steven Sashen:

Do you find that you need to kind of chunk that down? Because how old are you now?

Jessie Graff:

38.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. So you got quite a while until you’re 70. So in my head, so do you have to start thinking about 40, 45, 50? I mean, how do you keep that in your mind? Or is that 70 year old picture enough that it keeps you going?

Jessie Graff:

I think the 70 year old picture is more dynamic. So that’s the one. But I’d love to get a pull-up related world record at 50.

Steven Sashen:

Nice.

Jessie Graff:

That would be pretty cool. I looked up some pull-up world records, and they’re not outside the realm of possibility, but they’re certainly not something that I could do this year.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Jessie Graff:

I couldn’t just try it and be close. I’m like, “Okay, this is going to take some hard dedicated, specific work.” But if I do that and pace myself and don’t overdo it and get injured, then I think there’s a lot that’s possible that I didn’t realize was possible. So now that I have this, I’ve been doing all this extra research and studying and everything, and I think I found the key to why I have been so injury prone. I don’t like that word. But I’ve gotten a lot of injuries at the end of each season. So like I told you, I’ve been able to build strength extremely quickly and lose it and build it again extremely quickly and lose it.

So I read this book called Training for Climbing by Eric Hurst, and he talks about energy systems, which I think is utilized more often in-

Steven Sashen:

Well, running-

Jessie Graff:

Team sports and running. Yeah, a lot of running stuff. But he talks about it in terms of climbing and percentage of weight on your fingers. So your arms are not as bulky as your legs. You don’t have as much space between the muscle fibers for circulation. So with running, you’re hitting and relaxing, you’re flexing. With hanging from something, your muscles are isometrically contracted and clamping off those capillaries. So if you’re holding more than 50% of your maximum strength, all of your capillaries are so clamped off that you’re getting zero blood flow and you’re immediately anaerobic.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Jessie Graff:

Immediately. So your aerobic system can do nothing to help you in that situation. You’re just accumulating hydrogen ions getting more and more acidic and that acid will just kind of sit in your muscles and weaken things. So strengthening this lactic energy system will get you really strong really fast. You’ll see your gains dramatically in, he says two to six weeks you’ll see huge gains. So training hard, I was able to get dramatic gains for two months. So that’s kind of where you max out that system. So I was scientifically, to the book, doing exactly what he said there. But I was only training that energy system. I wasn’t training … You have to go at a very low intensity to train your aerobic system for your grip. You’ve got to be at 15%-30% of your maximum strength, which for me on a cliffhanger-

Steven Sashen:

Nothing.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, it’s very low. For pull-ups on a bar, I can do a pull-up with an extra 80 pounds. So what is that? Well, on a cable machine, I’m basically doing 12-15 pounds per arm just pulling down, keeping perfect form. It’s so light, I barely get a burn. But that’s how I know that I’m staying in the aerobic system and not getting … Because as soon as you fill up with acid, that kind of breaks down the progress you can make in building new mitochondria. So it’s hard to train your aerobic system when everything’s super acidic. If I’m doing everything to maximum burnout, I’m also not training that maximum strength. Everything is a percentage of your maximum strength. So if my maximum strength is staying at 80 pounds for a one rep max, my aerobic system can only get up to at best, maybe 35% of that. But if I’m not training aerobic system, well that’s still down at like 20%, maybe 25%.

So I’m building, I have this huge range in the lactic system, but it hits this peak. If my max strength isn’t increasing, I hit a peak. So if you work on your aerobic system and your max strength system and then you build that lactic system, you can have long-term gains. So building those too.

Steven Sashen:

There’s a guy named Steve Holman, he used to be an editor for some muscle and fitness kind of magazine. He’s a couple years older than I am. I think he’s 63 maybe?

Jessie Graff:

Wasn’t he at Tony’s Paragon?

Steven Sashen:

I don’t think so. That would freak me out. If he was, I didn’t notice. But the way he does weight training is your first set it’s like a set of 20 to 25 reps and then just wait 20 seconds, then you’re going to do a second set that’s going to be like 10-12 tops and then maybe do a third or switch to a different exercise for the same muscle group. But what’s interesting is that first set is literally just what you’re saying. It’s really, it’s slow twitch, it’s anaerobic thing that eventually does get your muscles tired. But it’s really all about blood flow. I’m also having a flashback to working with, I had one workout with a guy who’s a Xero Shoes customer, who’s a big deal fitness trainer in LA. His whole thing, he kept saying, “It’s just all about getting the blood moving. We’re not trying to …”

I made some comment, I said, I’m hanging out with him and all of his trainers, we’re having dinner. I said, “I’m not trying to get bigger. I’m just trying to get faster. I’m trying to develop the muscles I need to be faster.” He looked at all the trainers, he goes, “Did anyone understand a word of what he just said?” Because their whole thing is, it’s about getting bigger. It’s about hypertrophy, but mostly by just doing things that are just getting the blood moving, building additional mitochondria so you can do more work over time and that’s going to lead to hypertrophy. I just had no interest in hypertrophy. Which the joke for them is that made no sense because who wouldn’t? It’s not totally true because I do have an interest in that, partly for vanity and partly because as I’m getting older, having more muscle mass is helpful. So there’s that.

But I love what you described. If you want to help with your fit 70 year old goal, a thing to do is go to a master’s track meet, ideally nationals or worlds. Because I’m having a flashback to … Now, there are a couple things. Once these people get over 80 or so, they don’t look great, I will admit. But they look like someone you still want to be, it’s like they’re high jumping three feet, but you still want to be that guy or that woman. When we were in Finland there was a guy who was 101. He used his walker to get out to where he was going to do the shot-put. At 101 I think the weight of the shot was five pounds, whatever. He goes, “Ugh.” And it goes like 10 feet. The audience goes insane because we all want to be that guy.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

There was a woman who showed up, she was 95. She entered one race before she got there, but then felt pretty good and said, “Can I just enter everything that I want to do?” They went, “Yeah.” She entered 10 things, won them all and everyone wanted to be that woman. I love what you said, personally, because my goal as a sprinter is not to win a world championship, it’s not to win nationals. I want to be in the quarter finals for worlds, maybe. Semi-finals for nationals someday. But I just want to hit all American Times. They bigger and bigger as you get older.

So when I was 55-60, something like that, or 55-59. There we go, English. The 60 meter indoor time to all American was 8.5. I was running 8.2, 8.3. I looked yesterday, now that I’m 60, what’s the all American time? It’s 8.9 and I’m going, “I can hit that.” I’m hoping I can still hit the one from what I was a year ago. As long as I can keep doing that, then I feel like I’ve accomplished something. My other one is going to be harder. You’ll appreciate this one. I don’t know when I’m not going to be able to do a standing back flip. I want to be able to do that as long as humanly possible.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. What’s the record for the oldest person to do a standing back flip?

Steven Sashen:

Oh man, I have no idea. I got to look that one up.

Jessie Graff:

It’s worth looking up. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Well then it’s going to be you and me competing for it.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. Yep, yep.

Steven Sashen:

All right.

Jessie Graff:

Do you know about the 96 year old gymnast?

Steven Sashen:

No.

Jessie Graff:

You’ve got to look this lady up. I found her finally on Instagram. They did this TV show, I think it was called The Night Shift. They heard about this real life old lady and then wrote a character based on her, and I got to double the character. So I had to look up the videos of this, at the time I think she was 86 years old, doing a parallel bars routine. She’s wearing a green velvet leotard, 86 years old.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, I’ve seen that.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. Her name’s Johanna, I think.

Steven Sashen:

I think you’re right.

Jessie Graff:

But it’s not a men’s parallel bars routine, it’s her own unique thing. So I had to watch and learn her moves and stuff and do them on these physical therapy parallel bars that they used to teach people to walk. So my mom saw a video of her, she’s still doing floor routines and she’s in her 90s and it’s just so badass. I want to highlight more of these things. I’m realizing that’s something I should be using my Instagram for right now. Find videos of older people doing unbelievable things and be like, “I’m going to be like that person.”

Steven Sashen:

Well, again, back to me, me, me. Here’s the problem that I have as a sprinter at 60. 60 is an age where no one gives a shit. So if you’re under 30 and you’re super fast, everyone cares. If you’re over 80, and it doesn’t matter how fast you are, everyone cares. I’m in the age group where they just, as soon as that race starts, everyone just goes and gets a coffee. They just don’t give a shit.

Jessie Graff:

You’re training for 80.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I’m training for when I’m old enough that people care again. Or here’s the crazy thought, if I end up with cancer or I have some injury where I lose a leg or whatever the hell it is, if there’s some dramatic whatever thing and I have to come back, I want that one too.

Jessie Graff:

Don’t hope for that

Steven Sashen:

No, I’m not hoping for it. I’m preparing for eventualities. Basically I want to someday run a race where they applaud at the end. That’s it. It’s either because I’m old enough and I’m doing well enough, or I’ve overcome some major thing. I don’t care which. I mean, I prefer the former, but I just want to run a race where they care when I’m done. I’m a simple man.

Jessie Graff:

How can we warm people’s hearts and inspire them to push?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. No, first of all, I think it’s a brilliant question and it’s a perfect question to wrap this up on. I had no idea where we were going to go off my little intro, but I love this idea of thinking out to some future thing. Who do you want to be 20 years from now? What’s it going to take to do that? And what are the things that are going to make it interesting along the way? Because there’s definitely those times where you just don’t want to get out of bed and go and do that workout for whatever reason. As we were talking before we started this, there’s times where the cold plunge is right next to your hot tub and you’re just not going to get in it. Even though you want to or you think it’s good for you or whatever it is.

There’s times where that cold water is just cold water. For me, I don’t know about you, for me, part of it is being okay with that too, of just not being … I always say, “If you’re not having fun, don’t do it because you’ll stop.” So for me, part of the fun is also playing that edge of, “Is this the day where I’m going to take off and enjoy myself? Or is this the day where I feel like I want to take off, but I need to go out and once I get started I’ll be fine?” Finding that balance is very interesting for me personally.

Jessie Graff:

That is hard. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s kind of like, a variation on that, when I got back into sprinting, it took me probably five years. I got back into it when I was 45. It took me five years to learn that when I have the thought, “Let me just do one more.” That’s the one to not do.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

That was 20 year old me.

Jessie Graff:

My best season on Ninja Warrior was season eight. I committed to myself at the beginning of the year that anytime I felt a tweak, because I have the history of pushing past, ignoring things and being like, “You’ll be fine. You said 10 sets. You’ll do 10 sets.” So I promised myself that anytime I felt a hint of a tweak, I would stop. I can’t tell you how many times I walked home from the track or the gym crying because I was like, “You’ve gotten lazy. I don’t even know who you are anymore. This isn’t you.” But it was killing my soul to quit early. That’s the year I broke the most records. That’s the year I placed second among the men at regional finals. It all worked. So I’ve realized that whatever I perceive as this is the appropriate amount to do to reach your full potential, the actual appropriate amount is somewhere between a quarter and a third of that.

Steven Sashen:

Well, did you find yourself reframing that whole thing about, I feel a little twinge of it’s good news that you know now’s the thing, now’s the time rather than, oh, I’m the wrong person that I’m not pushing?

Jessie Graff:

Yeah, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. There’s definitely a point in my life where I identified as the hardest worker. I’m the first one to practice and the last one to leave, and however much coach says to do, I’m doing double that and that’s who I am. I took great pride in that. So one of the things that changed my life was I had a friend who told me, “What’s more important to you? Do you want to be the hardest worker or do you want to succeed?” Because those were so inherently connected for me my whole life, it was like, “Well, I want to win, but if I don’t win, at least I know I’m the hardest worker.” So my perception is that they were assisting each other, but I can always have hardest worker as consolation prize.

When I realized insisting on being the hardest worker was preventing me from succeeding, I had to separate them and choose, “Okay, I want to reach my full potential more than I want to identify as the hardest worker.” So I still have those moments where I miss my old definition as the hardest worker. I don’t get to claim that anymore because sometimes I get tired and I stop.

Steven Sashen:

Well wait, I’m going to give this one to you. Your goal is to be the smartest worker.

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. It is. That’s my goal now.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I love it. That’s a great one. Okay, so smartest worker, what’s coming up for you?

Jessie Graff:

Well, I am having so much fun continuing to read these scientific books on how to exercise more efficiently. I’m making all my own little, I have a new Venn diagram and bar graphs and stuff to track my data. I’ve learned how to use Excel spreadsheets at a higher level so that I can compare month to month and see how each energy system is improving. I’m really enjoying embracing my inner nerd and using it and comparing those things while I work out. Last night I was doing my row sets and realizing like, “Oh, if I do one more pound on these rows, then I’ve increased from the previous cycle, but I have to get 40 reps of this weight for it to count as this energy system.” So finally feeling that that real drive on an exercise that I used to neglect because I didn’t care about it as much.

Steven Sashen:

Do you know Brad, I think, I don’t know if he’s pronounced it, Pilon or Pylon? P-I-L-O-N. Have you ever bumped into him?

Jessie Graff:

He sounds very familiar.

Steven Sashen:

He came up with a thing, I’ll have to get it to you. I can’t remember what it’s called. But it was basically this whole idea of you doing a little more each time if you’re weightlifting. There’s a certain place where it just doesn’t work in that. So if you’re going from 10 pounds to 15 pounds, that’s way too much, but 10 pounds to 11 pounds is enough. I mean, there’s like all these things where it doesn’t work. He figured out this very clever bit of math that has to do with the number of reps and the amount of weight. So by manipulating the number of reps you’re doing and the weight you’re doing, you can be making these tiny, tiny little increases that are smaller than the amount of weight you could add to add more weight or smaller than adding another rep because another rep is too much if you’re using that certain amount of weight.

It’s a very clever thing. I haven’t gotten to start playing with it in the gym lately, but it’s one that makes so much sense about how to just do these tiniest little increments by manipulating weight and reps so that the amount of work you’re doing is the smallest amount of more work than what you did last time.

Jessie Graff:

Okay.

Steven Sashen:

It’s pretty clever.

Jessie Graff:

That sounds fun and satisfying. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I’ll find it. I’ll send it to you. You’ll get a kick out of it. By sending it to you, I’m not giving him $9 because I think that’s what I paid to get it or that’s what you would have to pay if you got it. But suffice to say, so that’s a good one. We’ll have to get your book list on the things that you’re reading that are compelling in that regard, that’d be a whole lot of fun. So that’s a good one. Yeah, sorry. So nerding out and finding out those things. What else? Anything where people will have to try to identify whether it’s you or an actress that they should be looking for?

Jessie Graff:

Let’s see. I think, I mean Babylon I think is coming out now.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Jessie Graff:

I worked on that a little. I don’t know if you’ll be able to see me anywhere. I wasn’t doubling, I was a warrior.

Steven Sashen:

Fingers crossed. Look, my claim to fame is if you watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, at the very beginning there’s a scene where they’re jumping over a fence to get into somewhere and that’s me, bitches. So yeah, there’s like-

Jessie Graff:

Love that movie.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. So there’s like four frames where if you know my profile, you could spot me if you zoom in with a microscope.

Jessie Graff:

Are you one of the background guys jumping over the fence?

Steven Sashen:

No, I wasn’t a background guy-

Jessie Graff:

Utility sense or you’re a turtle?

Steven Sashen:

No. Well, I wasn’t a turtle or a background. I can’t remember, this is like 35 years ago, 40 years ago. But suffice it to say it’s in the first couple minutes of the movie and I haven’t even looked for this in ages.

Jessie Graff:

But you’re a pedestrian guy?

Steven Sashen:

No.

Jessie Graff:

Or a robber guy?

Steven Sashen:

Something, I don’t even remember. I was either a robber guy or a turtle. I don’t even know. I literally don’t remember.

Jessie Graff:

Okay.

Steven Sashen:

So there’s-

Jessie Graff:

Someone going over a fence. Okay.

Steven Sashen:

Look at jumping over a fence. So in Babylon, if people are going to look, what were you doing?

Jessie Graff:

I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say.

Steven Sashen:

Okay-

Jessie Graff:

It’s big battle scene.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. All right. So yeah. So who are some of the people you doubled for? Just so people can go “ohh and awe” and think about that.

Jessie Graff:

I’m always nervous to say anything. I can say I got to do a lot of work on Supergirl and Wonder Woman 1984.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. Wink, wink.

Jessie Graff:

Used to do a lot of stuff on Agents of Shield.

Steven Sashen:

Fun.

Jessie Graff:

Tons of different crime shows just getting murdered. Or sometimes being a cop. I got to do a bunch of stuff on 911 last season doubling the character Lucy. Yeah, most of the stuff last year I’m just not allowed to say anything.

Steven Sashen:

All right.

Jessie Graff:

I don’t even mess with it anymore.

Steven Sashen:

Well no, I meant, look, I’m not going to mention the famous actor who claims to do all his own stunts and the guy that I know who doubles for him. There’s a lot of that going around. It’s one of the same actors who claims he’s not taking steroids where, yeah, you are. So there’s that problem. It cracks me up that people try to keep that mystique about what they’re doing, what they’re not doing, what they’re taking, what they’re not taking. I mean, come on. It’s like, yeah, I’m sorry, chicken and rice do not get you looking like that. That’s a whole other thing.

Jessie Graff:

It’s tricky because I know you don’t want to encourage kids to be taking steroids, but at the same time, you don’t want someone working out for years trying to achieve what you’ve achieved and not realizing that you’re using assistance. To have them getting down on themselves, being like, “What’s wrong with me that I can’t do that?” Well, you’re not taking the same things he’s taking.

Steven Sashen:

There’s a wonderful book called Muscle about a guy who was an Oxford Scholar kind of person who got a job in New York in publishing and felt really intimidated by New York so he decided to start working out. So the book sort of alternates chapters between his life in the publishing world and what was going on just in his mind and body. Then the next chapter would be his life in the gym and what he learned, and steroids were part of it. It was a really fascinating book because it was an insight into body building that nobody was talking about then. I mean, I have a friend who’s a former, let’s just say very, very high level bodybuilder back in the ’80s, who to this day will not tell me what he was taking to look the way he looked. He will say, “Oh, it’s all natural.”

No you weren’t. So anyway, this book, it’s saying, “Here’s what happens when you’re in the gym. Here’s what happens when you’ve been in the gym and now you’re going back to your real life and how these things intersect in ways that are both good and bad.” It was a wonderfully insightful and educational and fascinating read about exactly that. I’m sure the way that just would get amplified in Hollywood, I can’t even imagine. That’s a whole other thing. Anyway, we can go on and on for that for hours and hours, but we’ll do that in another chat. Jessie Graff, total, total pleasure as always. Literally I’m thinking of all the things that we didn’t even touch on that would be a fun to talk about so we got to do that again. If people want to A, get in touch with you or just follow what you’re doing or whatever, how would they do that?

Jessie Graff:

I keep things pretty up to date on my Instagram and Facebook. The handle is @JesseGraffPwr.

Steven Sashen:

If you don’t drop a couple vowels, you’re nobody these days.

Jessie Graff:

I wanted just Jessie Graff, but it was taken and there wasn’t enough space for the whole word power. So I thought maybe Jesse Gra Pow. But I realize that stands for Prisoner of War and that would be kind of weird. I keep checking in, someone still has Jessie Graff.

Steven Sashen:

What’s up with that? How have you not tracked her down?

Jessie Graff:

Yeah. Well her name is Jessie. I sent her a few messages and was like, “Hey, I would buy this from you.” She has a private account. She never answered me, that’s okay. I like pwr.

Steven Sashen:

No, it’s good. So JessieGraffPwr on Instagram and Facebook and do follow. What’s happening with Ninja stuff?

Jessie Graff:

The new season, I did submit an application for this year.

Steven Sashen:

You think they’re going to say no to you?

Jessie Graff:

I don’t think that. I thought it would be rude not to apply. I think it would be maybe disrespectful to just assume. I didn’t apply the past two years because I honestly did not intend to compete and was convinced to compete anyway. I feel like it was not the best choice of mine to compete through those years. But this year, because I am actually intending to compete, I did put in an application.

Steven Sashen:

When will you hear? When will that season begin?

Jessie Graff:

I think it’s a fairly safe assumption that we will start shooting it sometime in March and that it will start airing sometime in May.

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

Jessie Graff:

This year I’m not letting the pressure to compete, encourage me to push harder. I’m going at my own pace to reach my own personal goals and if that lines up well with the season, awesome.

Steven Sashen:

Well that’s good. In a related note, in terms of people tracking you, I know there are times where you show up for events whether you’re competing or teaching, and I can say as someone who has watched people teach various movement things for almost 50 years, you are a master of that. So if anybody gets a chance-

Jessie Graff:

Thank you.

Steven Sashen:

Well, you’re good at doing two things. You’re good at knowing what the sort of most important thing to know or learn or do is for some sort of skill and you’re good at figuring out what people can do and modifying things to accommodate them so they can be the best they can be. That’s what I’ve seen you do.

Jessie Graff:

Thank you. That’s sort of a new pursuit for me. I’ve always been working on my own goals and I’ve just in the past year, started training more other people now that I’m confident in my knowledge more. So it’s really exciting to hear that is working.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a real thing. So whether you have any intention of ever competing, this for other people, competing in a doing a ninja course or competing a Ninja Warrior or just want to learn some new movement thing that you never imagined that you might do or could do, check out and see where Jessie’s going to be. If you get the opportunity to train with her, it will definitely be something that you’ll remember forever and enjoy. So take advantage of that.

Jessie Graff:

Thank you. Thanks so much Steven.

Steven Sashen:

So, and for everyone else, thank you all for being here. Again, just as a reminder, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, find all the previous episodes, all the places you can find us. Again, leave a review and a thumbs up and hit the bell icon on YouTube, you know the drill, how to do all those things. If you have any recommendations or comments or criticism or anything, I don’t care, I’m open. You can drop me an email at move, M-O-V-E, @jointhemovementmovement.com. Most importantly, just go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Natural Movement

marketdomination — Wed, 11 Sep 2024 00:00:28 +0000

Erwan Le Corre is the founder of “MovNat”, a synthesis of his long-term passion for real-world physical competency, his love of movement in nature, his extensive knowledge of Physical Education history, and his personal philosophy of life. He believes it is everyone’s universal and biological birthright to be strong, healthy, happy and free. He calls this state of being our “True Nature”.

Erwan was born on September 10th, 1971 in France. At home, the TV set had a black and white screen with no remote control and no video games, and personal computers and internet didn’t exist. Most leisure time was spent outdoors exploring the surrounding woods. He was not only free to go move outside as much as he wanted, he was actively encouraged to do so.

At a very young age, Erwan’s father would often take him outdoors to run, crawl, climb, and jump, helping him to push his physical and mental limits. That’s when his passion for movement in nature started. Until his teenage years, Erwan’s only physical education came from Judo and exploring the world around him.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Erwan Le Corre about enhancing cognition through natural movement.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How adding primal movements into physical training allows people to reconnect individuals with nature and enhance physical capabilities.

– Why engaging in natural movement enhancing your memory and brain function.

– How incorporating natural movements like squatting into daily activities enhances your physical capability.

– Why people should engage in walking and sensory stimulation in natural environments to contribute to cognitive health.

– How you can reconnect with your innate physical abilities through practicing natural movements.

Connect with Erwan:

Guest Contact Info
X
@MovNat

Instagram
@movnat

Facebook
facebook.com/MovNat
LinkedIn
linkedin.com/company/movnat

Links Mentioned:
monat.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

You want to get in shape, you want to be strong, you want to be healthy, you probably joined a gym. Could that be the worst decision you have ever made? Well, we’re going to find out more about that and many other things on today’s episode of The MOVEMENT Movement podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting with the feet first, because that is your foundation. We’re going to debunk the myths and the propaganda and sometimes the outright lies that people tell you about what it takes to dance, to walk, to hike, to move, to lift, to whatever it is that you like to do enjoyably, effectively, and happily for now until the rest of your life, however long that happens to be anyway. I’m Steven Sashen, the host of The MOVEMENT Movement podcast and the CEO of xeroshoes.com.

You pretty much know the drill, like, share, subscribe, click the bell if you’re on YouTube, if you’re watching us, that’s cool. Come to jointhemovementmovement.com if you want to find out more about where you can interact with us and leave your comments and your questions. In fact, if you have any questions, drop me an email, move@jointhemovementmovement.com. And when I say movement movement, it’s because we are creating a movement about natural movement, and that means that you are involved. This is a grassroots groundswell thing. We’re trying to make natural movement the obvious, better, healthy choice the way natural food currently is, and that’s going to involve all of you people who are participating in this. So thanks for being here. As I like to say, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe and you know how to do all of that.

Anyway, I’m here with, I’m going to say a dear friend, even though we haven’t seen each other in nine years until right now about when we met, we really hit it off. And it’s one of those crazy things where we’re just bumping into each other. And I’m not even going to do an intro for you, Erwan, because you’ll say more interesting things than I do, and everything you’ll say is going to come with that super awesome accent. So why don’t you tell people who the hell you are and why the hell you’re here? Because I can’t think of anyone more appropriate for talking about natural movement than someone who literally owns natural movement.

Erwan Le Corre:

It’s going to be challenging to be as good at expressing yourself as you are, my friend.

Steven Sashen:

It’s not a competition.

Erwan Le Corre:

All right, so for those of you who don’t know me, my name is Erwan Le Corre. That’s the way you say it in French.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, how do Americans say it with their horrible accent?

Erwan Le Corre:

Erwan Le Corre.

Steven Sashen:

Erwan Le Corre. Okay.

Erwan Le Corre:

Which is totally fine with me. I’m not an American citizen and I’ve been living in the US for 10 years happily, very happily, by the way. But I was born in France and grew up there, and then I’ve traveled. I’ve worked in China, I’ve been in Brazil, I’ve been to many countries. But about 15 years ago, I made the decision that what I had learned through a number of experiences in my life, I was going to turn it into a system that would benefit people.

And I designed a method for natural movement called MovNat, M-O-V-N-A-T. MovNat, it’s a school of real world physical capability. So basically you’re trained to be capable to use your body, to operate your body in many diverse, directly, tangibly useful ways. So that’s what I do. I live in a little village up in the mountains of New Mexico at 8,500 elevation with my beautiful wife and my beautiful three children, Feather, Eagle, and Sky, since my wife is an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation and so are my kids. So they proudly have those names that are reminiscent of their Native Indian origins. What else can I say?

Steven Sashen:

I just love that your children have those names legitimately, that they didn’t change their name after they moved to Boulder and started doing yoga. I think that’s awesome.

Erwan Le Corre:

Hey, well, they’re free to change whatever they want about who they are when they-

Steven Sashen:

They’ll get old enough, they’re going to change their names to Scott, Michelle.

Erwan Le Corre:

No-

Steven Sashen:

They’ll all be Britneys.

Erwan Le Corre:

Look, what matters if you love your name or if you’re proud of your name. But for now, they didn’t really have a choice.

Steven Sashen:

You get them a good start.

Erwan Le Corre:

But they love their name. That’s the thing is that-

Steven Sashen:

Those are good names.

Erwan Le Corre:

-all three of them love their names, they’re proud of their names and that’s part of my name.

Steven Sashen:

My wife’s nieces and nephews are Birch, Winter, and Meadow.

Erwan Le Corre:

That’s beautiful.

Steven Sashen:

And they really fit those names. So anyway, but enough about names. So before we jump into everything, everything, I’ll always love to start with giving people some opportunity to learn something, to do something, to move in some way. Can you think of something that you would want to share with the human beings who are watching and or listening from anything you can think of, some movement, something or other? I mean, I have no boundaries on this.

Erwan Le Corre:

Well, sure, very easy. Right now, so I’m against an adobe wall because I live in a very old house, old for the United States at least, and I am leaning against the wall. So I have support for my spine. But here’s the thing, I’m in some kind of a hybrid position between a squat and sit position. Now I’m using a laptop. So right now I’m going to hold my laptop and I can change the position, which is great because most people today work from laptops. If you are watching this from home, if you have a tablet in your hands or phone or a laptop, you can then easily change that position and then you can decide to go into a squat or to go into a different sit position.

So let’s see what will happen if I show this a little. As you can see, I’m sitting here, so change your sit position. If you sit on the chair, go down to floor level. Once you’re on floor level, you have plenty of opportunities, diverse sit positions. You could also then transition to a squat and then you could also kneel if you want. So right there, challenging the static idea that you are supposed to be physically idle and physically static the moment you are looking the screen, just get some movement right there.

Steven Sashen:

I love it. What’s cracking me up is Lena and I, we work long and hard hours, and so our schedule is like roll out of bed, do some work, well, a lot of work, come home, make some dinner, sit in front of the television to relax and watch TV for a bit and then repeat. But the thing that I do most of the time I sit in front of the couch on the floor the way you’re sitting right now. Or then I’ll be cross-legged or then I’m basically just shifting all the time, even while I’m just taking some time off and resting.

And one of the things that cracks me up is every night when I do this, and I squat a lot as well when I do it, but I think when I was growing up, I didn’t know anyone who ever did this. My parents never did. I never heard of people doing this. It was no one had a relationship to the floor. And so I love this whole idea of just have a relationship to the floor and how your body can interact with the floor with all those myriad things you can do.

Erwan Le Corre:

And just for you to know, I started this lifestyle when I was 19. I was back then following a very maverick guy. So I was 19, he was 48, but he taught me a number of things and basically I followed him in his lifestyle practice, which involved no furniture in the house. When I say we, it wasn’t a commune or anything like that, everybody had their own place in their own life, but it was like a little group and we would be sharing that lifestyle, great support system. So I was sleeping on blankets, folded blankets. I didn’t have a single piece of furniture in my house or TV because none of that was necessary. I was doing a day-to-day breathing exercises. We were eating back then vegetarian, organic. We were doing all kind of trainings barefoot. We were doing cold immersions. So that’s before the internet, that’s before phone and you can post every aspect of your life on some social media account. So I was doing that already. And when I started to teach natural movement, by the way back then nobody talked, sorry, about natural movement.

It was a concept that people were asking me if it was yoga or tai chi. They had no concept whatsoever. So in the way that people understand it today, it’s because I’ve been teaching it and talking about it in numerous interviews, magazines, articles, and already when I was teaching workshops back say in Brazil or in West Virginia in 2009, and people were asking me, “So how do I implement that in my life?” I’m like, “Well, to begin with, it’s not just the training that you do say three times a week, it’s also all the movements that you do on a day-to-day basis.”

And you have so many avenues for that. You can brush your teeth in a squat position or eat in a squat position. And so I was really inspiring people to add tons of simple natural movements. Not that because you have to train because they’re technical, like jumping and landing, hanging and climbing, but those that you should be doing every day like squatting, kneeling, getting up, getting down with your hands, with no hands, all of those, they are easily ignored. And I wrote a whole book about it and they’re all in the book.

Steven Sashen:

Well, around that same time is when, and I know what your opinion is going to be about this, so I’m looking forward to asking you this question. This is about the time that “functional fitness” started to become a thing. I didn’t even ask the question, but I knew that was going to be your reaction.

Erwan Le Corre:

Oh, man.

Steven Sashen:

Say more about functional fitness, Erwan.

Erwan Le Corre:

There are so many terms. There are so many terms in that idea of living healthy or moving well and this and that. And I don’t blame people for coming up with terms that are going to become hashtags or like by hiking, rewilding, functional this and functional that. I like the idea of functional-

Steven Sashen:

Let’s back up.

Erwan Le Corre:

– mentioned it that it doesn’t mean nothing.

Steven Sashen:

My joke is it’s rarely functional. I mean, so for people who don’t know, the gist of it is that the people who came up with it were saying when you go to a gym, you’re lifting weights, you’re doing a bench press. It’s just some linear thing where you’re just pushing up and down. You’re doing curls, you’re just bending your arms. That’s not what you do on a daily basis where if you’re lifting something, it’s a different motion. If you’re climbing, it’s a different motion. And what they did is just came up with different machines mostly or different activities that are barely more functional than just what you get in the gym.

And they made arguments like that if you’re doing functional fitness, you’re working on stabilizer muscles and smaller muscles, and somehow that makes you stronger when the evidence is that completely not true. But like you said, it is an amazing marketing term that people do respond to because it does seem to make sense. And like you said, and we agree, the idea of natural movement is even better in that regard. The one thing that natural movement doesn’t have that functional fitness does is it doesn’t imply a program where you go and get some desired benefit, like losing weight.

Erwan Le Corre:

Oh, it does.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, I know that it does, but the phrase doesn’t communicate that in the same way that functional fitness-

Erwan Le Corre:

That’s not the emphasis. That’s not the emphasis.

Steven Sashen:

Right, of course.

Erwan Le Corre:

You shouldn’t be moving because you want to lose weight.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, that’s my point. My point is simply that functional fitness is a great marketing term because it does imply those things that people want from just going to the gym, but it’s not actually delivering what you are talking about, which is actually being a functioning human being who can actually do those functional things that in functional fitness training, you don’t really get.

Erwan Le Corre:

So look, functional training, it starts from the theory. My work does not stem from the theory. It stems from nature, it stems from experience and observation. It stems from the real world practical applications. Functional fitness stems from theory. So you look at a theory, you’d be like, “Okay, what are the basic universal movement patterns?” And you have pushing, pulling, twisting, lunging, and all these things. Pushing what with what? Pulling what with what? Okay, so if I do this with my finger, I’m pushing and if I do this with my finger, I’m pulling. Is that what you mean is functional fitness? That doesn’t mean anything.

Steven Sashen:

Well, no. You have to be able to do it your other fingers too.

Erwan Le Corre:

Because divorced from the original context where natural movement or movement is normally done and where it was shaped by such a long history of people moving in nature. So you can do lunging, you can do pushing. And again, pushing with your arms, pushing of your head, pushing or pulling with your feet. What do you mean exactly? It is divorced from context. What is it that you are trying to do that is actually practical? Explain to me because I have to scratch my head. Why are you pulling? Are you pulling because you’re climbing? Are you pulling because you are fighting? Grappling? What are you doing? And there’s something that is extremely confusing about doing movements that are completely divorced from the original meaning. When I have my people jump over an obstacle or balance on top of it or crawl under it, the practical reason why they’re doing this movement is instant.

Nobody has got to scratch their head why this movement is good for. While this movement is good for passing that obstacle, performing that practical task, no question asked. When you do a functional fitness drill, you still have to scratch your head as of-

Steven Sashen:

Why is this? What am I doing this work?

Erwan Le Corre:

Why, what situation, what context could that be used to? If you have to ask yourself what’s the application of any given drill movement, it’s very likely that it’s not practical in the first place. So functional, look, what does that mean? If you do bodybuilding, you are using your body functionally. You got to have function in your body to do bodybuilding, yoga, dance, whatever the movement is. So functional movement doesn’t mean anything.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Erwan Le Corre:

It’s just like movement culture. It doesn’t mean anything because if I play ping pong, that’s movement culture. If I play badminton or if I play darts, that’s movement culture. Then if I do bodybuilding, that should be part of movement culture. Who are you to say that a bodybuilder is not doing some form of movement then using the body to do that movement? So if all I’m doing is skateboarding and I call that I’m part of a movement culture, okay, great. All you mean is that you’re having some kind of movement activity so you’re not fully physically idle on a day-to-day basis like most people today. Okay, wow, that’s enlightening. But that doesn’t take you anywhere, to me, that’s really relevant.

Steven Sashen:

I love the example you gave of dealing with an obstacle and climbing over it or jumping over it or going under or doing all the various things you could do with it. I want to come back to the thing I’m going to say now and I’m going to say it now just so I don’t forget. And that is I’d love you to give more examples of some of the things that people do and learn to do when they’re doing MovNat workshops. But here’s the question I want to ask first, and I’ll have to frame it this way. So I’m a former All-American gymnast, and as a gymnast I spend a lot of time doing things upside down or in the air or in unusual positions.

And gymnasts are the only people that I know who will say something like, “Hold on, I’ve got to get upside down for a few minutes.” There’s just something you earn from being upside down that you do or gymnast deal with obstacles in certain ways because we’ve dealt with in different ways. What I’m curious about is when people do MovNat or they work with you in some way, what have you heard about how they then literally just deal with simple physical things or how it changes their relationship with the objects they encounter in the world on a daily basis? And what does that look like?

Erwan Le Corre:

Well, that is the entire goal of at least the primary goal because there’s a difference between goals and benefits. We’re talking about weight loss. You may experience weight loss if you train physically though it’s no guarantee because there are so many other aspects of your lifestyle that are involved in losing weight or not losing weight or gaining weight, and what kind of weight, by the way? So this being said, the primary goal, we’re not talking about the other benefits of MovNat practice is to give you the real world physical capability that you’ve never developed in the first place. And how do I know that you’ve never developed it in the first place? Just because I’ve never met anybody who had that overall capability that isn’t trying a MovNat except to some extent, and I’m not saying they don’t exist, they’re just very rare.

That could be some people in the military, that can be some people that are firefighters, that can be some people who are real mavericks and who’ve trained a certain specific way, but usually people are either physically idle or they have some kind of activity that’s just one activity. So it means that they’re specialized. You go to the gym to get bigger muscles for instance or just to stay in shape to get some general strength. That’s awesome, by the way. When I was talking about functional fitness or movement culture, I was not in a way saying anything… I was talking about the terms themselves and how I don’t agree because the terms are very misleading or confusing and vague. I’m not talking about whatever a person does in their life to improve their quality of life, to be physically active, that’s beautiful regardless of what you do.

I think that’s beautiful. So I hope that nobody took it personally because some people may identify as a functional fitness expert or student-

Steven Sashen:

Agreed.

Erwan Le Corre:

And another person as part of a movement culture, and that’s beautiful. I’m just saying those terms, I don’t like them. That’s it. That’s my thing. And it’s whoever thinks different, it’s whatever. But I think that when people move in their life, it’s a beautiful thing. When we train in MovNat, what we teach people is to have practical abilities to do whatever is necessary that’s really directly useful and tangible in their lives. And that’s not just in the day-to-day situations. That could be to be prepared for situation that may never occur in your life.

Steven Sashen:

So let’s talk about a day-to-day one first. So what are some things that either you’ve seen or you’ve heard or that you’ve trained for that changes for people or their relationship to movement changes or their relationship to objects change as a result of doing the training or being introduced to the training?

Erwan Le Corre:

So much just… I’ll give you an example. I’ll give you one example. Most people can’t even deep squat, they cannot assume the position at all. They fall off balance. We’ve had support. They fall off balance. So to give a person that simple ability, simple yet so critical to health, because if you’re not… And that’s functional, right? That’s function except that function, we’re not going to recover it through functional drills. We’re going to recover it through natural movement drill. And when you hear natural, that’s simply the way that you’re supposed to behave physically on a day-to-day basis. So I’ll give you an example. I’m going to just move my laptop here and I’m going to change this. And you should be, for instance, seeing here that I’m in a sit position.

Steven Sashen:

So here I’ll describe for people. So you’re sitting with your back against the wall and now you have one leg extended, one leg up by your hips. Now you’ve got both legs up by your hips. So yeah, these are all variations of squat patterns.

Erwan Le Corre:

Okay. So if you train in MovNat, if you try natural movement, if you practice it, you may be able to cover, for instance, the ability to go like this and get back to a deep squat and then stand, come back and like that.

Steven Sashen:

So again, to go from sitting on the floor to standing, but going through a squat without having to use your hands, for example, which is what you’re pointing out, very natural thing. You go to many parts of the world, this is what people do on a daily basis.

Erwan Le Corre:

Exactly.

Steven Sashen:

In America, definitely not.

Erwan Le Corre:

Exactly.

Steven Sashen:

Like I said, I never saw adults doing anything remotely like this. My dad actually used to show off. It was one of his things that he had loved to show off that even into his 70s he could sit on the ground and then put his legs in a lotus position. He was just flexible in that way and he just loved that he could do that. He couldn’t do anything else, but he could do that one.

Erwan Le Corre:

So that’s great, but you want to have the full scope.

Steven Sashen:

Exactly.

Erwan Le Corre:

So there was a scientific study from Brazil, and not that I feel the need to constantly come up with, “Hey, there’s a study that substantiates what I do.” Fortunately, our ancestors never needed any kind of science to be actually healthy and strong and resilient and just to be able to be fit in the full sense of the word. But that study showed that people who had an ability to from standing get to the ground and back up without using their hands or elbows or knees, so clearly greater mobility and greater real function, had that natural movement ability to do that kind of get up how the significantly greater life expectancy than others.

Steven Sashen:

I’ve seen that one-

Erwan Le Corre:

We know about people in hospital has been studied made where you assess how much grip strength people have, patients have in a hospital. Those who have greater grip strength will leave the hospital much faster than those who don’t. And by the way, Millennials today have not only they can deep squat, but this is a generality because there are still some healthy people. But generally speaking, the physical state and physical abilities of young people today compared to other generations just like that, they have no grip strength. I just want to finish on that point, Steven. Why on earth would it have a great life expectancy if you’re not strong and if you have significantly lower function? You may not see yourself as or a problem deep squatting or doing that kind of no hand get up as a health issue, but actually it is a health issue. There’s something about your health that is already lowered and you want to claim that. That’s what we teach.

Steven Sashen:

There’s a woman at Duke University, I think she’s a nurse who’s been doing research that shows, and I’m paraphrasing, I met her a few years ago, that showed if your walking speed gets under a certain level, it’s a high predictor that you will die within 10 years. And it’s not obviously for people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, but something like people in their seventies where walking speed was a very strong correlative factor with longevity, with life expectancy. And of course the idea that was not specifically that you want to increase someone’s walking speed, although that does help. It’s that whatever’s going on that’s making it so they can’t walk is the problem. And if you can address that through by starting with walking speed, you’re going to address some of those other factors. But boy, you remind me of something else. This morning when I was driving to work, I drove by a local high school and I saw the kids who were doing their physical fitness part of their class.

There’s no way you’d be able to guess what they were doing. So I will tell you, they were strolling very, very slowly for about a half a mile on a sidewalk. That’s their entire physical fitness program at this high school. It was amazing. I’ve seen it before, but I mean I was literally reminded of it this morning when I saw it. That’s all they do. In fact, sometimes when I’m out on the track training, when I used to train during the week in particular, they would come out and their entire physical fitness program was walking for a half a mile around the track, two laps of the track while they’re just chatting, hanging out, strolling. That was it. It’s like, wow.

Erwan Le Corre:

I know. It’s extremely alarming.

Steven Sashen:

It is. I’m also curious about, for some reason, well again, because of my own history, but I’m also curious just about the way we interact with our environment. So when I thought about the practical, not practical applications, but practical examples of what happens when people start moving differently, I thought about how I get in and out of things like beds and couches, which is often jumping or rolling either onto them or off of them. If people haven’t had that experience, they don’t know that that’s an option, let alone how fun it is to do that. Or wait, I’m trying to remember where I was. Oh my god, I know. I was in a store like a Sears or something and they had mattresses. And so what I was doing is I was running-

Erwan Le Corre:

Sorry, finish the story.

Steven Sashen:

That’s okay. Well, I was running towards them and basically what I would do to test the mattresses is I would do a dive roll and land on the mattress and then bounce off and go to the next one. And some of the salespeople said, “Hey, you can’t do that here.” I said, “Hey, I have to test the mattress to see if it’ll work for what I do on a daily basis.”

Erwan Le Corre:

That’s hilarious. You have a youth to you that is both the mindset. And if you have the mindset, then you will have the physical behavior, the movement behavior that’s aligned-

Steven Sashen:

I think it’s a little bit of both. I think it goes both ways because if you don’t know that that movement is possible for you to do, it would never occur to you. And the movement happens to be “young or playful” or whatever it is. But I’m curious just about that. But of course the extreme version of what I’m describing is now free running in parkour.

Erwan Le Corre:

It’s a beautiful thing. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. It’s a beautiful thing. But again, usually emerging trends, that’s it. Things are changing.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Erwan Le Corre:

No, they’re not. Emerging trends like that are exactly the sign that, generally speaking, things are going the other way. And because young people today realize that maybe they’re 15 and they’re like, “Oh my God, all I’ve been doing until this time is gaming on the couch, being on my smartphone, on my iPad, whatever it is, watching TV, being indoors. I’m going to be an adult soon.” And some of them have a wake-up call where they’re like, “I need to be capable. I need to be strong. What am I going to do if running is going to be boring? I’m not into any specific sports.” They may have all kind of… But then parkour, it’s a freedom and it looks cool and I can be popular maybe.

Steven Sashen:

Anti-corporate. Yeah.

Erwan Le Corre:

I’m going to behave like all the superheroes that I have watched in all the movies and video games that I’ve been playing with. They all do those crazy movements, but I could do it too. Look, it doesn’t matter what your motivation is, it’s great that that trend exists. A lot of people who do parkour come and train with us. And the reason is not only because we have actually a method that’s really detailed and effective, it’s a method for teaching all these movements, but we also have a more complete range of movements that we teach, that we have people practice.

Steven Sashen:

It’s interesting that… I’m trying to think of how to frame this. It’s becoming more and more popular to watch people do more and more extreme things. So I’m thinking like American Ninja Warrior where hugely popular show, watching a very small number of people doing very insane stuff. And it just makes me think about what can we do to bridge that gap to help people become more active? Not because it’s a prescription, not because we want to tell them they should because it’s good for them, but to give people the experience of the fun and pleasure of that and if you want to say the rightness of it. Again, so that there’s not this big gap between sitting on the couch and being an American Ninja Warrior.

Erwan Le Corre:

It’s an extremely important, very good and very important point that you’re making when you look at performances in any special light sports. Because for anyone to have the ability to perform at a really high level in any discipline, you’ve got to be hyperspecialized, had to do that. So you look at, say, you go on YouTube or you go on one on TV or on social media and you see amazing parkour, you see amazing acrobatics, you see amazing rock climbing, you see amazing whatever you’re into, spearfishing, amazing…

Steven Sashen:

Hula hoop.

Erwan Le Corre:

Whatever. Okay. You have movement of some sort. You have people who have both incredible innate talent because that’s a fact. People are just naturally talented. And then you also have told dedication to just being great at what they do. And so they become that. The value of this is to show you what specialization and dedication can enable some people to achieve. And it can be very inspiring to others to watch and be like, “I may never be able to do that, but I’m going to try.” But the problem with that also is that it leaves a lot of people disheartened because I can’t even do that. I won’t even try. There’s no way on earth that I’ll ever be able to do it.

This is where I position what I do. I’m an educator at heart. If some people are able of elite physical performance, beautiful, good for them. But that’s not the case of most people. And what most people need is not to be seeking an elite level performance. It’s just to have an overall physical competency and capability that is going to last a long time, that is not difficult or too difficult to acquire, that is not too difficult to maintain and that can be maintained a long time while also having fun enjoyment in doing it. That is MovNat because the movement you do from crawling to balancing to some running, jumping and landing, hanging, climbing, lifting and carrying, throwing, catching, all of that are just movement, number one, that you are designed to do.

So it comes natural to your body. What we teach is to be efficient at those movements, to be efficient technically at each of those techniques, to teach you techniques that you may not know or that you didn’t know you could do that movement that way or more efficient, number one. And then to also have an efficient practice to just not be a jackass, try to go in the woods, try out some stuff and maybe twist an ankle and come back and be like, “I’m too old. I’m already 25.”

Steven Sashen:

I’m having this fantasy thought right now that what would it be like if-

Erwan Le Corre:

What is that?

Steven Sashen:

Oh, it’s really cool. You think of something that doesn’t exist and you imagine that it does, you should try sometime. So here’s my fantasy thought. My fantasy thought, or this is just one of them, is that in the same way that we have as children go through the educational process, we expect them to develop a certain amount of competency in a number of different things, many of which they will never use again, either because they’re not practically used or because it’s not their own interest.

So for example, I had to learn some things about history. History is just not my thing, for whatever reason, that’s not where my brain goes. I don’t organize things in that way, but I understand how history works. I get how things relate to each other. Anyway, what would it be like if part of the curriculum had a… What’s the word? Some core competency with certain kinds of movements. You can’t graduate high school unless you can do a cartwheel, unless you know how to roll, unless you can… I mean if we identify what are the dozen simple movements that everyone should be able to demonstrate that they know how to do. I mean, boy, that would be incredible.

Erwan Le Corre:

Yeah, that would be incredible. But at the same time, public schools are not-

Steven Sashen:

I said it was a fantasy.

Erwan Le Corre:

They’re not designed. Okay, so I’m coming back to reality. So let’s keep the fantasy alive. In that fantasy that I’m now entering in my own mind, people would actually be exuberant with their movements. They would have some form of movement every day, and that it is-

Steven Sashen:

And you find the ones that work for you.

Erwan Le Corre:

Look, my kids don’t go to… They’re homeschooled.

Steven Sashen:

Right. Wait, hold on, hold on. Let me say this. What a shock.

Erwan Le Corre:

You should see how my kids move. No instruction, but they have example every day and they mimic that example. So one is amazing at climbing, the other one is amazing at running, the other one is amazing at jumping. Wow. Little body like five years old like massive jumps, perfect landings. I never taught him anything, but if you’ve seen me do it, kids have seen me or my wife do it better than that. They wear onto our bodies as we were doing those movements.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, interesting.

Erwan Le Corre:

We never used a stroller ever. Never owned one ever. So you can imagine you go anywhere and we’ve traveled and we go there and there. When babies are babies, you don’t have a stroller. They’re on you. They’re even on your wife or on me, on the husband. What that means is that they have imprinted the movement patterns and experienced movement patterns of other parents that it is crawling, running, climbing, jumping, have jumped with holding my kids. Not anything dangerous, of course, but just the sensation. You know when you jump, all of a sudden you feel airborne, you’re like… Like when you’re in an elevator and then you land. When a baby is held, he feels exactly the same. What is that? But you can also see, so kids could see and they could feel those movement patterns. No wonder if they want to replicate them also because it’s the example they have in front of them every day. Do you have any expectation from the public system to make my kids healthy or physically capable? Absolutely not, because they know that it’s just not happening.

It’s not happening. Programs in schools are extremely poorly designed, and this is not saying anything about the actually knowledgeable and dedicated PE teachers that there is all over the country or the world. It is to say something absolutely negative about the intentions behind the people who design the programs and they have just complete… It’s not enough that they to say that they don’t know what physical education is. They just don’t give a crap about it. They don’t care that-

Steven Sashen:

I think it’s worse.

Erwan Le Corre:

Steven, I’m just going to finish on that.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, sorry.

Erwan Le Corre:

Those people who are in charge, it’s not only that they don’t give a crap that people are going to be healthy or not. They want them to not be healthy, otherwise there would be solutions. Yeah, that’s conspiracy theory if you want. Every year, when you hear that Google right now is diminishing the traffic by half of any alternative health website.

Steven Sashen:

I’m not sure about that.

Erwan Le Corre:

Yes, it’s happening because they’re dealing with corporations that have something to sell.

Steven Sashen:

Well, that’s a whole different thing.

Erwan Le Corre:

Just verify. Just check it out. It’s happening. So what I want to say, back to physical education, every year millions of kids leave school having acquired zero physical capability. They’re not educated with their body, all right?

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Erwan Le Corre:

So what would happen if the same millions of kids every day, every year would be to be leaving school without knowing how to read and write.

Steven Sashen:

Agreed. I totally agree. And it’s funny, I’m thinking when I was a kid, we had a thing that was called the presidential physical fitness test or something like that. And there was some number of activities, maybe 10 activities. And depending on how you did in each of these activities, you got different levels of some sort of award. And there are things about it that I totally loved. One was, I’m a sprinter by trade. I mean that’s what I do. And one of the events was a 600 yard run, and I think you had to do it in, I don’t know, two minutes something or maybe 2:30, whatever it was. It was some time that frankly was not a really fast time. I could barely make it because 400 meters is a long run for me. I don’t do it. So 600 yards, that was crazy.

There was also a woman named Joy Abramson. I hope I’m not embarrassing Joy to say this, I shouldn’t have used her name, but there it is. She was one of the women who she matured faster than anybody else. So she in sixth grade was already like an adult-sized person and couldn’t run that 600 yards either. I think with Joy, she went really, really slow and she just didn’t like it at all, it seemed, and she always had her head down. But at the end of the race, everybody would finish. And after we figured out our times, we’d all turn to Joy and go, “How much money did you find?” Because she always found money running around this particular course, which is great.

But I think about this curriculum of these fundamental movements that everyone should have to know, demonstrate that they could do. And there’s invariably going to be things that no matter what size you are, what shape you are, what weight you are, what strength you are, these are things that you can do. And some you’ll do better than others, some you’ll like more than others. And boy, I’m just enjoying this idea of to your point, what would it be like if everyone did walk out and had this core competency, and how would that change the educational system all along if we weren’t expecting people to just sit all day every day?

Erwan Le Corre:

It’s a beautiful fantasy and it’s also actually also true because for instance, a scientific study was made using two natural movements. So the people researched it said, “Hey, we’re using the MovNat method.” Some people will be climbing around a tree, like hanging, and then they will also do some balancing.

Steven Sashen:

Okay.

Erwan Le Corre:

Just balancing surface. That was first group and the other group would be doing yoga, third group would be doing nothing. And then their working memory would be tested before and after, before doing natural movement, after doing natural movement, before doing yoga, after yoga, before doing nothing, after doing nothing. What’s working memory? So working memory is actually much more important than IQ in determining, forgive my funky French accent, how you process, how fast, how well you process information. So basically people have a high IQ, maybe very smart in that way of solving very abstract problems, but not necessarily situationally.

Steven Sashen:

Okay.

Erwan Le Corre:

So with working memory, you’re much better being situational about how you process information. And I’m not a scientist in that regard. So I hope that I give a decent explanation of what working memory is. But in any case, it’s very important aspect of cognition. So the point was to determine if there was any benefit to doing nothing or doing yoga or doing natural movement. The people who did nothing as you would expect scored the same.

Steven Sashen:

Right. No difference.

Erwan Le Corre:

The people who did yoga as you may not expect scored the same.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Erwan Le Corre:

The people who did natural movements scored much higher.

Steven Sashen:

I have a theory about why. Do you?

Erwan Le Corre:

Oh yeah, I know, and actually I’ve already said it before science determined it. It’s not that I’m particularly smart and it’s not that I’m a scientist, I just like to observe things. When you know that the brain, the reason for having a brain is to be able to move it’s, but not just doing any movement, because yoga is movement clearly, or tai chi, it’s for locomotion that is adaptable, adaptable to complex environments, which is natural movement in nature. So you’re going to go through, the forest surface is going to be slippery and stable and predictable. And through that, you are in one location, point A, and you look at point B, that’s where you want to be. And your brain is already a fortune-teller determine determining how are you going to navigate so you get there?

It’s extremely brilliant. Today, even robotics can’t achieve the same exactly. So that’s the number one reason why we have a brain. So if you are that little animal that has one or two neurons, I don’t remember, and you’re basically, you start as an animal, you’re moving through the ocean, and then all of a sudden you decide to settle for the mussel life, you stick on the rock and you become not a shell, you become a plant, you become seaweed. And the first thing that they do, so they’re born animal and they die vegetal. First thing they do as they switch to the vegetal life is to dissolve their mini-brain. Why? Because it has become useless. Why? Because they don’t need to navigate their body with locomotion through complex environments.

So adaptability of locomotion is the number one reason why we have a brain, not a body, but a brain. Not for abstract thinking, not for discussing the history of art and fine wines and things like that. It’s beautiful, but that’s not the primary reason. So it would make perfect sense that if you’re going to do the movements that are adaptable, that your very brain is originally designed to take care of, that is going to boost cognition, it’s going boost brain function.

And you don’t have a brain for movement and the brain for the rest of your activities. It’s the same person, it’s the same brains, the same cognition. So if you boost your cognition, regardless of why and how, and it’s going to carry over areas of recognition that have nothing to do with movement, such as abstract thinking. Yoga won’t do it. Why? Because in yoga, you do not adapt to the environment. As a matter of fact, you react it. You don’t want branches and sticks and rocky funky stuff in the way because that could destabilize you.

Because look, when you do yoga, you can close your eyes because you think, okay, I’m more mindful. Okay, that’s the point. Which of the two is more mindful? Is it to close your eyes and to do movement only on the spot, so you don’t have to adapt to anything, nothing is bothering you, right? And on top of that, you’re replicating exact same movements that you replicate all the time or would it be to actually keep your eyes and all your senses open and to be extremely sharp and alert and responsive to all the information you get from a changing environment as you move?

Tell me which one requires the more mindfulness. That’s right. It’s natural movement. And this is why you gain more benefits in working memory in so many other aspects of cognition actually that have not been proven yet if you do natural movement than if you do yoga. And this is not to say anything negative about yoga, it’s just an observation. Yoga’s beautiful, but it’s not what people think in term of benefits necessarily.

Steven Sashen:

Kirk Erickson is a researcher, I don’t know if he still is. He was at the University of Pittsburgh, this is maybe seven, eight years ago. He published a study, it was a longitudinal study that I think they did over about nine years where they looked at elderly people and they did an fMRI and checked out their brain, and then they tracked them over time. And I don’t remember if he assigned groups of people to be the groups that walked versus the groups that didn’t. But suffice it to say at the end of the study, the elderly people who had done more walking had retained more brain matter, more gray matter in their brain. And I called him and I said, “Why do you think this is?” And he said, “It was from the stimulation of being out and walking and seeing things and feeling things and hearing things.” I said, “Can you imagine what it would’ve been like if they actually were feeling the ground and they weren’t in the stupid shoes?” And he said, “Oh yeah, that would’ve been a whole different thing.”

Erwan Le Corre:

Exactly. And on uneven surface-

Steven Sashen:

Uneven surfaces, yeah, exactly.

Erwan Le Corre:

Because if you’re barefoot, but you’re barefoot on flat, it’s complete predictable. The stimulation to the feed is exactly the same all the time.

Steven Sashen:

It’s so funny, I went into Costco this morning and I love the Costco floors. I was barefoot. I love the Costco floors. They’re nice and smooth and cool, but I like it even more when I get out into the parking lot and it’s all those extra sensations, and it’s a different thing, but it’s like both of them are good. There’s times where you want to get the stimulation, there’s times you want to rest. There’s times where you want something nice and smooth and cool.

Erwan Le Corre:

Absolutely, absolutely. Look, there’s nothing… God, I love my comfort, man. Some people say, “Comfort is bad.” No, trust me, if I was to remove all and any comfort from your life, you would be screaming. Comfort is what we are naturally evolutionarily-

Steven Sashen:

Looking for.

Erwan Le Corre:

Exactly. You want comfort. Dogs want it. Dogs, you let them go on your couch and they make it their own. And if you try to get them off the couch, they’ll start to be gnarly. So comfort is great.

Steven Sashen:

Did you just call me a dog without knowing it?

Erwan Le Corre:

Did I?

Steven Sashen:

Well, yeah, I do the same thing on my couch.

Erwan Le Corre:

Big mistake. I’ll try to be respectful from now on.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, no, no, I have no problem being called a dog when it comes to being on my couch. I like my couch. Our couch, that’s a whole other story. There’s a great couch story.

Erwan Le Corre:

We don’t have a couch. But honestly, if I lay down, we have a nice bed, comfortable, and I’m able to sleep on hard surfaces because I’ve done that a lot for many years. I’m able to enjoy comfort. Comfort is not a problem. It’s how you manage comfort. If you are constantly seeking comfort, ultimately you lower your ability to handle discomfort and that makes you uncomfortable.

Steven Sashen:

There’s another aspect to it that occurred to me that’s relevant for my end on the footwear side. So the number one way that people try to sell two things, mattresses and shoes, is based on comfort. And ironically, they’re trying to tell the same story. It’s like, “Here’s all this padding. Isn’t this great?” When people go to try on shoes, they try them on in a store and they’ll say something like, “Oh, this feels really comfortable,” because they like the cushioning or the texture of the material or the whatever. But in real life, those things aren’t actually comfortable. Our product developer, Dennis, loves to say, “If I asked you to do 20 push-ups, do you want to do them on the floor or on a memory foam mattress?”

And everyone says, “Well, on the floor.” He’s, “Well, why?” It’s like, “Well, because you get more feedback, you get more response.” He said, “Well, it’s the same thing with your feet.” If you use your body, that’s actually more comfortable because you’re more efficient. If you just put yourself on the mattress, you’re going to get stuck in there and you can’t really move correctly. And eventually your body reacts badly and it gets worse and worse over time. Same thing when you’re doing the same thing in footwear, all that cushioning doesn’t actually help. It feels good temporarily, but isn’t good for you. And in the long run, it’s going to end up being bad. And people go-

Erwan Le Corre:

Question, Steven, what if you were to tell people you got to do jumping, like clapping push-ups, would they have the same answer? Because you see, when you do a push-up, your hand stays on the floor. They don’t take off.

Steven Sashen:

Even more.

Erwan Le Corre:

You basically have to land-

Steven Sashen:

Even more. In fact, I was thinking that exact same thing. If you have to jump and land, it’s the same thing. The cushioning isn’t good because it makes you unstable and puts your joints in bad positions, and that’s where you’re going to screw things up. I mean, the only way you get the feet… When I tell people how to run barefoot, I go, “Take off your shoes.” And they go, “But you sell Xero Shoes.” I went, “No, no. Take off your shoes. If you’re worried about the ground, that’s why we make Xero Shoes, next best thing to barefoot. But the important part, take off your shoes, find a nice, smooth hard surface.” And they go, “Well, don’t you want to do it on the grass first?” Like, “No, hard surface because you need to get the feedback to then develop the right movement patterns so that you find that that’s actually really, really comfortable to do, more comfortable than running on something soft because your body knows how to react to that and reacts to it better.”

And again, my favorite thing is when people say stuff like, “Yeah, but we didn’t evolve to run on concrete.” I go, “Have you ever been to the plains of Africa where the packed mud is as hard as concrete and the things that are packed into it are sticks and twigs and pointy things that are worse than any piece of concrete you will ever step on in your entire life?” The surfaces we run on now are just a dream compared to what we evolved to run on. And I’m not saying that you want to stay on the road all the time, get off and play, jump on things, climb over things, jump over things, get on a trail. But the idea that somehow we haven’t adapted to be able to run a marathon on the road is of course absurd.

Erwan Le Corre:

When I moved to the US in 2009, first workshops were in that summer 2009, and then I don’t know if you know that, but I actually moved to Boulder.

Steven Sashen:

I did not know that.

Erwan Le Corre:

So that was from say 2009 to… We didn’t know each other yet. I think I’ve left somewhere around January 2010 or something. So I just stayed there a few months. But where I was living was close to those, not the Flatirons, but the other part. Anyways, I would go up there barefoot, and that’s even before the barefoot trend started. And man, I was going up and down and people were just stunned. I guess today more people have heard of that idea of barefoot running, but they still think that to be absolutely barefoot is really radical and near impossible.

Steven Sashen:

Oh no, I hear it all the time when people… As I’m running by someone, when someone says, “You can’t do that.” It’s like, “Didn’t you notice I just did it?” Yes. It’s amazing to me that the way I describe it is… Actually, I’m going to back up and talk about Irene Davis again because she said it great at an American College of Sports Medicine conference last year. The last question for this panel discussion about footwear that I was involved in, she said to the panel, which included people from Brooks and Adidas, she was, “Look, in the ’60s, we were running in super thin-soled running shoes and playing basketball in Chuck Taylor Converse shoes. We weren’t getting the kind of injuries or the severity of injuries or the number of injuries that we’re getting now. So what problem were you trying to solve and why didn’t it work?”

And the other guys had no answer. And now, it’s been so long, it’s been 50 years plus that people have had the idea that you can’t be barefoot, that you need shoes with motion control and arch support and all the rest, that it’s no longer marketing that shoe companies have to do to convince you of this.

We teach our children, we tell them that it’s true. It’s common knowledge, it’s conventional wisdom. It’s the way it is. And part of what you and I are talking about doing is not only breaking out of that, but it’s not creating anything new. It’s just reminding people of what they knew as children, what they experienced as children, what we all did up until 50 years ago. And so on the one hand, we have a big challenge in front of us of combating hundreds of billions of dollars of corporate interests. On the other hand, we have the simple challenge of just all we’re doing is reminding people, just asking them to wake up a little bit, which is way easier than trying to teach them some new thing that requires a whole bunch of explanation that makes no sense.

Erwan Le Corre:

You just said, which I agree with you, is that we’re providing inspiration and solutions in the term of software as I do like the method for trying natural movement in term of hardware like you do with your high-quality minimal footwear. But yet you know that we are up against corporate interest, billions and billions dollars industries, all right?

Steven Sashen:

Yes.

Erwan Le Corre:

So back to that Google thing, please check it out because you wouldn’t be surprised that the number one search engine has ties with those huge corporate interest.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, no. I’m suggesting it’s simpler-

Erwan Le Corre:

To prevent some alternative.

Steven Sashen:

No, no. I’m suggesting it’s simpler. No, my contention is that Google only cares about two things. One is giving people, and not necessarily in this order, one is giving people… No, actually it is in this order. It’s giving people relevant results. And what I mean by relevant results is that when someone searches for something, they end up finding something that they’ll click somewhere and they want to click on it, or they’ll click somewhere, not find it, come back and click on something else, but they’ll find enough relevant results that eventually they get to where they want to go. But here’s the key, here’s the caveat. They want the companies who are giving the relevant results to be paying for it. So things that used to be free, you now have to pay for. So the top positions in Google are now paid ads and the side positions in Google are paid ads.

They’ve actually taken the home page and made it more about paid results than non-paid results. So it’s not that Google is consciously trying to control the dissemination of information, it’s that the information is being presented in a way based on who is able and willing to pay for those particular relevant results. So sometimes there will be corporations who are willing to pay more and they’re going to get the results. And the “alternatives” are not pushed down deliberately, but just harder to find because the paid stuff is what pays the rent for Google.

And sometimes, depending on the search, it’s the alternatives that are the ones that are providing the more money to Google and therefore getting better results. And often, I mean, the problem that we’ve seen with both Facebook and Google is what’s happened now is people realize that and they’re willing to pay more money to get in front of people with things that are patently false. I’m not talking about alternative medicine or health, although that’s one of the domains where this can happen. But basically just people know that since Google wants to make money, all you have to do is provide them a way of making money and they will promote you more. It couldn’t be simpler in certain ways. And because of that, couldn’t be more horrible.

Erwan Le Corre:

That makes sense. I still believe that there are conspiracies.

Steven Sashen:

There may be. But look, the simple thing is if Google were aggressively trying to do what you’re suggesting, there are so many conspiracies and conspiracy theories and simply things that are factually inaccurate that they would have track on a daily basis, it would require the entire population of America to do that. I mean, the simple thing is if they really cared, the flat earth movement wouldn’t exist. So they don’t care. That’s not their-

Erwan Le Corre:

Well, listen, the flat earth movement does not sell anything. The people-

Steven Sashen:

Oh, yes, it does. Oh yeah, it does. There are people-

Erwan Le Corre:

No, listen, brother, there is no flat earth billion industry business, all right? However, there is the industry just for medication, whatever it has to do with healthcare. It’s so huge.

Steven Sashen:

Absolutely.

Erwan Le Corre:

Don’t you think that there’s potentially, and again, I could be wrong, but there are ties between those interest so much to sell and so much profit to make-

Steven Sashen:

Again, not the way you think, if anything, because as someone who’s been involved in trying to market products, here’s what I can tell you, a couple things. So when we started this in late 2009 through 2010, 2011, I couldn’t advertise on Google because I couldn’t afford to because the big shoe companies who were selling things they called minimalist but weren’t really minimalist were paying huge amounts of money for every click that they got. They were just sucking the clicks out of the universe, if you will. So I couldn’t pay for them. Now, Google didn’t need to do anything for that. I mean, that was just the corporations trying to control the conversation and using these platforms to do that. Now, I don’t think that the corporations per se have a relationship with say Google in that regard. But what happens is this, the more money you spend, the more you then get access to tools and ideas and information that allows you to spend more money.

Erwan Le Corre:

Okay. So how about this aspect of conspiracy, simply commercials conspiracy is that Google won’t tell you that the result of whatever could be is biased based on pay to play.

Steven Sashen:

Again, not entirely. Not entirely. And again, I say this simply because I know guys who game the system all day long.

Erwan Le Corre:

Anybody who’s going to go and Google, and that’s pretty much everybody to search say minimal and huge expect unbiased results. And they won’t get that according to what you said, they won’t get that because some companies have paid and others have not.

Steven Sashen:

I’m just saying that the bias is a little different than what you think and the fundamental problem… And look, I’m not pro or anti-Google in this conversation. I just know some things about what they do and some things I don’t know because mostly people don’t know because they are always trying to balance these things of giving people the information they’re looking for and paying the rent. And sometimes those things definitely conflict with each other. No question.

Erwan Le Corre:

But you did affirm that search results are biased.

Steven Sashen:

Well, they have to be.

Erwan Le Corre:

Based on who pays the most.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, no, no, no.

Erwan Le Corre:

As a Google consumer.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, sorry, it’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying-

Erwan Le Corre:

Who thinks about it?

Steven Sashen:

No, what I’m saying is what you see on the homepage is being impacted by who pays the most, but that’s not the entirety of search results. So there’s the paid results and the unpaid results. And one thing Google has played with is how to make it clear that something is a paid result versus an unpaid result, but not making it too clear. And so it’s definitely doable. The results aren’t skewed by a bias for some particular thing but-

Erwan Le Corre:

Telling you it’s a conspiracy. What’s a conspiracy? Doesn’t have to be something crazy about aliens. All it has to do is something that people do without telling you.

Steven Sashen:

Well, look, you live in New Mexico, we know that you’re already controlled by aliens because everyone’s coming to hang out by you. So that’s a given. So you don’t have furniture. It’s not that you don’t have furniture because you don’t want it. It’s because the aliens came and took it. We know that. So we didn’t talk about that in this podcast, but we know the aliens stole your furniture and took it to Area 51. That’s common knowledge. But more importantly, anyway-

Erwan Le Corre:

At least you and I are having a one-on-one conversation as that totally improvised and not planned in any way. So hopefully, your audience will be okay with that.

Steven Sashen:

I’ve never planned for a conversation. It takes too much effort.

Erwan Le Corre:

For sure. I like to say this, I’ve always fought before I even started what I do that I was up against, not a conspiracy necessarily, but at least such layers and layers and layers of conventions.

Steven Sashen:

Absolutely.

Erwan Le Corre:

What’s what I call normalcy that is not necessarily your friend. Normalcy is not your friend. The same way Terence McKenna said, “Culture is not your friend.” So today’s culture is what we call normal is actually in so many ways, beautiful and practical and just very practical.

Steven Sashen:

But not normal.

Erwan Le Corre:

At the same time, it’s in so many ways unhealthy and we want to question that. And there’s also lots of industry that just don’t want change, don’t want alternatives, and that’s what we do. So clearly it’s not easy and clearly it’s such a fight or quest in this industry.

Steven Sashen:

I agree, and I think there may be another way of playing it too. I want to back up to something you said before about, I can’t remember how, oh, about kids in the physical education program in schools. I know that some of the influence on physical education programs has happened because of insurance problems. So for example, I know that when I was in high school, again, I was a gymnast. So we had trampolines and I know that there was a number of very high profile lawsuits where people made so much money suing the school or suing coaches or suing the trampoline manufacturers and trampolines vanished from schools. Now they’re back in trampoline parks. So there’s this sort of ebb and flow, but I know that a lot of what has happened in the physical education programs of schools has been dumbed down, if you will, because the schools are worried about getting their asses sued if they do anything that could put people in…

It used to be just physically dangerous or harmful situations, now it’s emotionally harmful situations. Now they’re worried that if they have kickball, that someone who gets picked last is going to sue the school because they were excluded because of whatever the hell it is. But what this leads me to is I’m not trying to complain about this, I’m actually thinking as we move forward, the question is how can we align ourselves, and I don’t know if this is possible, how can we align ourselves with the same people who have been controlling the conversation, if you will, in a negative way to demonstrate that this opportunity that we’re presenting is actually positive, can make them more money, can save them more money, can be more efficient in various other ways? Because we know that it can, it can reduce healthcare costs, for example. Now again, there are people who have conflicting issues about healthcare costs, some people who want it to go up because they make money on it, some people who want to go down because it cost their company.

Erwan Le Corre:

People who actually own the healthcare or health insurance-

Steven Sashen:

Maybe. I mean, again, there’s a conflict. I’m not saying there’s no conflict there, but what I am saying, what I do think is, again, when I started the podcast by saying this is a grassroots groundswell kind of thing, I think that the message of natural movement is so screamingly obvious. Here, let’s back up to the other thing I say, we’re trying to make natural movement the obvious choice, the way natural food is. So clearly there are people who make a lot of money selling processed foods that are not inherently good for people.

Many of those same companies are now providing and promoting more natural food. Walmart is the number one provider of organic produce in the country. So while there are conflicts, when something becomes so obvious to a certain group of people that the movement, if you will, or the momentum is obvious to, let’s call them, the powers that be for the fun of it, then they’re going to go for the ride. Gluten-free was not a thing until big companies went, “Oh, there’s people who are actually having issues with this and there’s other people who aren’t having issues, but they’re going to want to take care of this. We can actually get behind gluten-free.” So maybe there’s a way.

Erwan Le Corre:

We can definitely change the culture, but it’s usually the small players who do that.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and here we are. I mean this is-

Erwan Le Corre:

Exactly. I agree with you. For instance, I just came back, I was at an airport recently and I just was hungry, didn’t eat the food in the plane. And so I looked at snacks and I was happily surprised to see the amount of healthy or at least not alternatives in a store in an airport. All I can think of was, okay, that has to do with the paleo, the keto movement, all of that. A number of small players are changing the industry. Well, yes, because look, you put those products on the shelves. Either people want that kind of product-

Steven Sashen:

Or not.

Erwan Le Corre:

Or they don’t. And if they do, it flies off the shelves. And when it does, then the people who manage those stores are going to order more of the same product and more of similar products. So basically it’s in the hands of the consumer. We always know that. It’s in the hands of the consumer and the consumer’s consumer relation to what they believe is the best and what they like the best, and influences that are not mainstream, at least originally, eventually may become mainstream.

Steven Sashen:

Well, look, that’s why I’m having these conversations is we’re trying to just get more people thinking about what’s natural and demanding. It’s funny, not funny ha ha, funny, annoying as crap, that when the minimalist movement started to wane, the reason that it happened was that the bigger shoe companies that were making products that they called minimalist realized that if they actually made minimalist products, it would make people, again question the rest of their product line and could really jeopardize their business. So they started pulling out of selling minimalist products to stores, but then the people who report on sales data we’re saying, “Oh look, sales of minimalist products are down. That means people don’t want them.”

It’s like, “Well, no, no, no, no, you have it backwards.” The big companies who were providing most of the products weren’t providing as much, so people couldn’t buy as much, so sales went down. It was like a totally upside down bit of logic. There was some reason that I brought that up, but I can’t remember what the hell it was. Something having to do with just, oh, the consumer behavior. The consumer is definitely controlling it to a certain extent, but there’s got to be product available. There has to be the information available so that they can act on that so that it can change the culture, it can change the conversation. It can create a new, I’m going to say, zeitgeist.

Erwan Le Corre:

They have a tremendous financial power just to stir things in the direction that is best for them and no, it’s not best for the people. They can pay… Well anyways, I’m preaching to the choir.

Steven Sashen:

No, I know, but it’s fun to do it sometimes.

Erwan Le Corre:

It’s definitely a fact. So yeah, they can totally afford to just not even commercialize any single pseudo-minimal.

Steven Sashen:

And look, well, it’s not going to happen like that. I mean, because again, this is a big ship that we’re trying to turn, but it doesn’t matter because we got to turn the ship and at a certain point there’s critical mass. The ship has turned enough that it’s now on a new course. And eventually I hope that this whole idea of natural movement takes hold during my lifetime. I would love to see it come to fruition enough that it really does become something that is so obvious and practical and simple. I don’t even know what other adjectives I’m looking for, but I’m also not naive. I mean, on the one hand, I’m a 57-year-old guy. I don’t know how many years I’ve got left in me, things like this can take time.

On the other hand, we’ve got the internet and all these other communication tools that are accelerating the dissemination of information and maybe it can happen faster. I mean, boy, that would be awesome and I don’t even care. I’m not looking for it to happen so that it’s Steven Sashen or Erwan who it’s like, “Look what we did.” If Nike and Adi and Puma and all the rest, if they started making truly minimalist footwear that actually fit human feet that were actually good for you, I would be ecstatic. If we were just the people who catalyzed the change, I would be thrilled. I don’t care if it’s me or not, I just want to see it happen because it’s the right thing.

Erwan Le Corre:

That’s why I never called my method the Le Corre method, right? I called it something else because my idea originally was I don’t care if people know me. I don’t even care they know where it all comes from. I just want them to use the tool and to harvest the benefits in their own life to have higher, greater quality of life. So it was never an ego thing. And by the way, it’s been 10 years, actually more than I do have the 10 years publicly, and I have released hundreds of thousands of videos. I haven’t done that because it was never about blasting people with my face and my voice and my persona. It was about promoting the mindset, the method, the lifestyle, all of that to benefit people.

Steven Sashen:

That’s a tricky balance.

Erwan Le Corre:

But I believe in what you say, look, I didn’t start with a business plan, all right? I started with vision and the way… By the way, are people still listening? If you do, if you do, I want you to do this. I’m going to keep talking and Steven and I are going to keep talking instead of looking at the screen, instead of looking at us, me and Steven-

Steven Sashen:

They may be listening without looking.

Erwan Le Corre:

Hopefully, you have a window with some horizon, some distance. You’re going to keep listening while looking at us as far as you can. And I’m going to do that as I’m carrying it on. And it’s a vision. And the way I see a vision is I imagine a different culture, a different society where lives would be lived much more healthily and that I would be one of the people to create that change in this time we live in. And what’s a vision? A vision is not something that you hope for. It’s not something that you wish and it’s not something that you believe in. Shocking. What do you mean? You have to believe in it. You have to hope for it.

This is the way I see it is that this is something I know it is already happening. At what scale? At what pace is it going to evolve this? I don’t know. But to have change, you need to have more than hope or wish. And even it’s belief, but it’s higher than belief. Belief in the sense when you know it’s beyond belief, right? When you say I believe in something, you may have some doubt somewhere, you may have some, whatever, some restrictions, some limitations sometimes. Is this going to happen? Is this not going to happen? When will it happen? When you know you think this way, it has already happened.

And I’m doing it, proof, and then people are doing it, proof. You are selling shoes. Okay, you are making products, for profit, beautiful. Because here’s the thing, you are selling products that you have designed with a pure intention of not just make a living for yourself, but the pure intention of equipping people with truly healthy, functional footwear. That’s the mindset. That’s what you believe in and believe in, but that’s also what you know because if your shoes are there, people aware of them, people email you say, “Just changed my life just changing my footwear.” See, that’s beautiful. It’s happening. You know it’s there.

Steven Sashen:

Absolutely.

Erwan Le Corre:

My brother, my friend, you will see it happen because you can already see it happen right now, just let’s keep on pushing.

Steven Sashen:

Lena likes to say, because she knows me very well, that the challenge for me as a human being is the gap between what’s happening today and what I see, and it’s true. And what gets me out of bed in the morning is trying to close that gap. And it’s a hell of a journey. But enough about me. If people want to find out more about you, and actually I don’t want to say it this way. Before I ask you to tell people how they can get in touch with you and experience natural movement and MovNat and you, the whole thing about it not being about you, this is a really interesting topic for me. I never wanted Xero Shoes to be about me. The first handful of videos that I made, I don’t even remember if I had my face to say hi. I think I might have, but then it’s just 10 minutes of my feet, which had some interesting repercussions, but enough about that.

But what happened from the two seconds where it was my face saying hello, people would recognize me. And something that I knew but I was really trying to resist was that human beings relate to other human beings. And so I’ve made a bunch of videos, not because I want it to be about me, but because this is something that I talk about all the time and I want to share this information and I know that people relate to human beings. Am I the best person for people to be relating to? I would never suggest that. Even if it’s true, I don’t know and I don’t care.

Erwan Le Corre:

Not for you to decide.

Steven Sashen:

Absolutely, correct, correct.

Erwan Le Corre:

You know what you decide is to put yourself out there-

Steven Sashen:

I do it because I do it.

Erwan Le Corre:

-to be in the arena by doing all these videos. Actually, I believe I’m going to start soon to do that the same-

Steven Sashen:

Well, here’s my joke for you.

Erwan Le Corre:

Guys, it’s not for us to decide if people are interested or if they like us or they don’t like us, or if they find our information, our insights relevant or resistant relevant.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I like to say I’m not personal, but here’s my joke about you. When you said I haven’t made a bunch of videos, my response is, “That’s a shame.” Because again, people like to relate to people and in terms of what you are doing and what you’re teaching, you are in fact the embodiment of that. And look, dude, you’re one of those guys, women want to be with you, guys want to be you. So you’re such a great example of living what you’re talking about that I’m going to encourage you to do more because there’s value there. I mean, there’s value. Look, people already relate to you when they come and do courses, but the value is having the information have a focal point. And I would argue that you are a very good focal point and you-

Erwan Le Corre:

Well, I appreciate that. And I must say that I’ve been bringing a lot something that I’m going to start soon in that direction because for 10 years I’ve been basically extremely busy growing my team, growing my company, having events worldwide, also having three kids and actually be a real father for them, be there changing thousands of diapers, just being there for them every day and then writing a book. My book is almost academic level in the sense of the amount of information.

Steven Sashen:

I’m looking forward to it.

Erwan Le Corre:

Also, I wanted to give some space like I give my team, my community a voice too, to just have that lifestyle and that example, that inspiration to be also not just in my hands, but to be in the hands of community. But at the same time, I realized that I founded this, I started it. Some people start to call me the godfather of natural movement. I won’t disagree with that. And I feel ready now to put me a little more on the frontline.

Steven Sashen:

Good.

Erwan Le Corre:

So that’s what I’m working on.

Steven Sashen:

Well, as you do that and people want to find out more, why don’t we wrap this up by you telling them how to do that.

Erwan Le Corre:

Okay, so number one. Well, since you were saying, “How do you experience natural movement?” So number one, experience natural movement. You’ve been actually experiencing it your whole life except you didn’t know it was natural movement. When you were a kid, you were crawling, jumping, hanging, you were doing all these movements, and then somehow along the way you were told that that was not the right way to exercise or an acceptable way to behave in public and this and that. So basically it was never the right place, never the right time. And so you’ve lost that natural movement drive that you once had in you. One way to reignite it is just to start practicing it again.

And if you want information, tips or even find people who can train you online or in-person, to find videos with examples, you just go on movnat.com, M-O-V-N-A-T, M-O-V-N-A-T.com. It goes through moving naturally and moving in nature. Because even though we train a lot of people not in nature, that’s because we got to be providing that training where people are when we find people, but we also train them in nature and we also encourage them to take the skills that they learn indoors or outdoors, but in urban environments back to nature. We want to send people back to nature with the skills that were once truly universal and that today are not anymore.

Steven Sashen:

Good. Well, I hope people do take you up on that and do come and see you and experience what you’re doing. I can’t wait to… Wait, there’s more. Hold on. You put your finger-

Erwan Le Corre:

A book. I wrote a book.

Steven Sashen:

Talk about the book. Geez, man, don’t make me queue you for everything.

Erwan Le Corre:

I mean, if you have vision and reading skills, I mean, pretty much you can open a book and educate yourself. And that book that I wrote, it’s called The Practice of Natural Movement by Victory Belt. It’s available on Amazon, but other Barnes & Noble and all. It has everything. 20% of it is the philosophy, it’s to manifest the why. It’s not how you do it. It’s why is it important to have a natural movement in your life. Why does it make sense? Because when it start to make sense and you agree with it like a truth or at least a fact, a reality that makes sense to you, you’re very much likely to seek the behavior that aligns with that, right? People do bodybuilding, they do bodybuilding because they want to be big. So if they’re going to do bodybuilding exercise, because in their head they want to be big, not to be questioned or whatever. Well, here on this planet to have a good life, to have the best life we can possibly have is the pursuit of happiness on our own terms.

To me, if you don’t have natural movement in your life or movement in your life, something is really missing. So I wrote a whole book about it. You’ll find hundreds and hundreds of techniques and tips in how to practice where it’s highly practical. There’s nothing nerdy in that book. And the best news is Amazon just dropped the price to $28 or something. Never personally ever had any control how much the book is sold for, nor does my publisher. It’s actually all Amazon who decides that. So right now on Amazon, it’s for $27, you have close to 500 pages of information.

Steven Sashen:

Awesome.

Erwan Le Corre:

That’s also an amazing starting point.

Steven Sashen:

Good, good, good. Well, A, thank you very much. B, as I expected, this is a total pleasure. We’re going to do more of this. Let me just wrap it up for everybody else, thank you all for listening and for being part of the podcast. As always, if you want to find out more, just go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. That’s where you can leave some comments. You can find out where to find us on all the various platforms where podcasts are served. Like I say, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe and like and share and all those things that you know how to do. Is there anything else? Because yes, we went to for the third time in this conversation. You know our goal, making natural movement the obvious, better healthy choice. The way natural food is you are going to be the ones who make that happen. You are the movement movement and I want to thank you for being part of that. So enjoy and live life feet first.

The Myth of Stretching

marketdomination — Wed, 04 Sep 2024 00:00:50 +0000

Dr. Brianne Showman has been a licensed physical therapist since 2006. Since that time, she has been helping active adults and athletes get back to the activities they love. As ideas and theories in rehabilitation, functional movement, and nutrition are constantly changing, she is constantly searching for the new information in order to get you back to the activities you love as quickly (but safely) as possible.

Being a CrossFitter and runner herself, she also understands the desire to want to push through the pain, not wanting to take time off, and wanting to get back to activity as soon as possible when required to take time off. She does her best to keep you active in the things you are able to do, modifying as necessary, but not taking you completely out of the gym, off the track/field, or off the road.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Dr. Brianne Showman about the myth of stretching.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How box breathing is a controlled breathing pattern method used for relaxation and stress relief.

– Why addressing weaknesses in key muscle groups is essential to alleviate chronic tightness and prevent further issues.

– How improving hip stability and control during running is crucial for overall performance.

– Why grip strength is a significant factor in obstacle course racing and ninja warrior training.

– How training the body to control new range of motion gained through stretching is crucial to prevent regression.

Connect with Brianne:

Guest Contact Info

Instagram
@the.ocr.doc

Facebook
facebook.com/GetYourFixPhysicalTherapy
LinkedIn
Linkedin.com/in/brianne-showman

Links Mentioned:
getyourfixpt.com

Connect with Steven:

Website
Xeroshoes.com

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

Stretching, icing, all that sort of massage, all that rehab stuff. Super, super important, right? Maybe it’s the worst thing you could be doing for yourself if you’re trying to be a healthier, better human being, let alone athlete. We’re going to find out more about that on today’s episode of The Movement Movement podcast. The podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting with the feet first because those things are your foundation. We get rid of the mythology, the propaganda, sometimes the outright lies that people have been telling you for 50 years about what it takes to run or walk or hike or play or lift or do yoga or CrossFit, or just hang out with your kids and do that enjoyably and effectively. And did I mention enjoyably? Because if you’re not having fun, remember please do something different until you are. We call this The Movement Movement podcast because we’re creating a movement about natural movement.

We’re trying to make natural movement the obvious or remind people really, that natural movement is the obvious, better, healthy choice. This is the same way we currently think of natural food, and it’s a movement that means it involves you, and all that means is sharing with your friends. So like and subscribe, and give us a thumbs up and hit the bell icon on YouTube if you’re on YouTube. And come visit us at www.jointhemovementmovement.com, you’ll find previous episodes and all the other ways that you can interact with us. I don’t need to tell you how to do that. You know how to find podcasts. You’ve been here before or you’ve been somewhere before. That’s the important part. So anyway, let’s jump in and talk about whether all those things that you think you need to do for staying healthy or really bad for you. And let’s start by saying, hello, Brianna, how are you?

Brianne Showman:

I am awesome. It’s Monday, my favorite day of the week, so we’re good.

Steven Sashen:

Really? Well, people won’t be hearing this on a Monday, so now you’ve just messed them up. Of course during the last 12 months, no one knows what day it is anyway, so it’s not going to really matter.

Brianne Showman:

That’s true.

Steven Sashen:

Before we jump into why all these horrible things or these wonderful things are horrible for you, why don’t you tell people who the hell you are and what you do with your life.

Brianne Showman:

Who I am? I’m still figuring that out myself, but for what I do know, I am Brianne Showman. I am a physical therapist by trade, but what I do primarily is coaching for runners and obstacle course racers. Many years ago, I was the traditional therapist who saw the injured person in an insurance-based clinic, and I got very fed up with what insurance companies do to control us. I got very fed up with just fixing broken people constantly. So I became a coach to get people on the front end of things in order to make more resilient athletes rather than constantly fixing broken people.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I want to jump back into that in a second because I want to start with just what we… Actually, I’m going to start with something else. So, since it is The Movement Movement podcast, I’m going to put you on the spot. We have not prepared for this. This is going to be a high pressure situation, so take a deep breath, shake it out if you need to. Is there any movement anything, whether it’s physical or mental, if there’s a mental movement, if you can figure out what that means or anything that you would want to share with human beings that could give them some sort of experience, whether they’re sitting down right now or taking a walk or in their car or doing whatever they might be doing. And we’ve done things like doing short foot exercise to do an isometric foot strengthening thing. We’ve done weird things like turning your head in one direction while turning your eyes in the other direction and finding out how that can make you stretch or move better. So anything you can think of that you might want to share with humans?

Brianne Showman:

You know what, I think just because it’s such an important element but tends to be forgotten by a lot of people as stress when we’re in high stress environments is breathing, and just remembering to take those long, deep breaths in through your nose, out through your nose.

Steven Sashen:

That was easy. Let’s just do one, shall we? Actually, wait, hold on. Do you have a theory about the timing of in-breaths versus out-breaths when you’re doing things like this? Because some people do.

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, it depends on the purpose. I do a lot of box breathing myself, which is making an equal amount of time for that inhale hold, exhale hold. But then there is a lot of science behind to in order to help decrease your heart rate and bring more calm, doing a longer exhale than a longer inhale. So it kind of depends on what your purpose is for it.

Steven Sashen:

Let’s do a combo. Let’s do a four-second inhale, six second hold, eight second out. So 4, 6, 8.

Brianne Showman:

Got it.

Steven Sashen:

Four in, six hold, eight out, and we’ll do like… We’ll just do two of those. What the hell?

Brianne Showman:

Let’s do it.

Steven Sashen:

All right, ready? I’ll count it off. I’ll count and read at the same time. Here we go. That’s the out. Okay. In two, three, four, hold, two, three, four, five, six out. One, two, three, four, hold, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, repeat in… Four. Hold, two, three, four, hold, two, three, four, five, six out, two, three, four, hold, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Now I got to tell you, that actually was really helpful. I was surprised, even trying to count and breathe in at the same time, which is really not easy. But for me to be able to do the breath hold and the exhale, I have to make sure I get a good inhale, good belly breath in, and then also into the upper chest as well. So like a complete breath in, gives me enough air to do all of that. So, I hope people report back on what they do when they’re doing that. I do something like that to help me get to sleep sometimes, actually.

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, it’s nice. I’ve used a lot of the breathing techniques for even if I just have something on my mind that I just cannot let go of, I’ll just do some box breathing and just… Because when you focus on the numbers and counting versus anything else, it just helps everything relax and calm down.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. And to be clear, I agree with you and nothing’s perfect, and I’m thinking that because last night I just could not get to sleep because I had these four thoughts running through my head incessantly. Basically, I was playing a negotiation out in my head. I have some people that I’m have to be going to be talking to and I’m trying to figure out the right way to frame everything we’re going to be doing, and it just was nonstop. And for me, this is going to sound weird, the only thing that works in that case is I get out of bed, I go into the other room where we have a couch and a television and I put the TV on, I put it on some YouTube thing that’s like a two-hour lecture by someone who I don’t care about and put the volume down kind of low.

And for some reason that’s very soothing for me. And I’ll wake up once or twice at night and have something going on in my dreams that’s based on what they were just saying, which is really fun. The other day I was dreaming about black holes because suddenly there was a thing. Someone talking about Stephen Hawking who I do care about, and that worked.

Brianne Showman:

That’s awesome.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, I don’t like to be really prescriptive and assume there’s something that’s perfect for everyone all the time. So I don’t want to make it seem like, “Hey, this is the thing.” Anyway, so in the intro I said, maybe things like stretching and massage and foam rolling and all those things we do for rehab are not necessarily the things that we need to do. And I got to tell you, I want to hear this came from you, of course, and I want to hear what you think about that and why you gave me that idea to start with.

But I want to start with a story that may jumpstart this, this is maybe eight years ago or so. I happily believe there’s a guy named Dr. Bill Sands, who was at what’s now Colorado Mesa University. He was formerly head of biomechanics at the US Olympic Committee. They gave him a huge human performance lab to work in at Colorado Mesa State or Colorado Mesa University. And he would do a whole day’s worth of analysis on you for 50 bucks. There was all these Olympians who told me about him and said, “You got to go see this guy.” And so I went out there and he did all this amazing stuff, and he was using infrared things to measure where parts of your body are hot and cold and doing compression things and really, really fun stuff. And at one point I was having some issue, I can’t remember what it was at the time, and I said, “So what do I do about this?”

And he says, “Well, at the end of every workout you should ice that.” I said, “Well, that’s cool, but what do I do about it?” He said, “How old are you?” I said, “I’m 50.” He goes, “Yeah, at the end of every workout you should ice that.” And so I was like, that wasn’t the answer I was looking for because I had this idea that there was something I could do that would fix it, cure it, make it never come back, make it never happen. I hope that leads you to a jumping off point for this idea.

Brianne Showman:

Yes, yes it does. I mean, ice, I guess dulls the pain, but it doesn’t really do anything for you. But what I would’ve wanted to dive into and what I gave you. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

But other than that one sentence debunking years and years of rest, ice compression, elevation, but the ice, whatever.

Brianne Showman:

That’s a whole other rabbit hole we can go down later.

Steven Sashen:

We can go down that rabbit hole in a bit. We’ll come back to it.

Brianne Showman:

But when it comes to stretching, like at the end of the day, stretching is not going to hurt anybody, but it’s not the end all be all that a lot of athletes think it is. A lot of times I’ll talk to people who are injured. It’s like, “What are you doing? Well, I’m stretching before I run. I’m stretching after, I’m stretching multiple times a day.” And it’s just, they’re constantly stretching. And if you’re acutely injured, it might be helpful, but it’s one of these things that if something’s continually getting tight, there’s a reason for it. And that if all you’re doing is stretching constantly, we’re just treating those symptoms, we’re not actually getting to the cause of it on what’s actually causing that tightness to be there. So it’s not that stretching is necessarily a bad thing, it’s just the thing that if that’s all you’re doing and you’re having to do that to maintain a pain-free state or be able to continue training, then there’s other answers that need to be looked into.

Steven Sashen:

And how would someone go about finding those other things that might be the real cause that’s leading them to do all this, other than someone telling them that’s what they should have been doing?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, this is very general statement, but for the most part, a lot of the things that get tight and that chronically tight is because something is weak. The question is, what is exactly weak? But the way the body works is the deep muscles around the joint have to stabilize the joint. That’s what keeps it nice and strong. If there’s weakness there or if it’s fatiguing out faster than the demands you’re putting on it, the only way the body knows how to control itself and protect that joint is to tighten up. So this constant tight state that we’re getting in often means that something’s not strong enough to do its job.

Steven Sashen:

So that’s an interesting thing. It makes me think of reciprocal inhibition. Makes me think of two things, reciprocal inhibition one, which is ironically, if someone’s going to stretch, perhaps the better way to do it. And for people who don’t know what that is, let’s think about doing a hamstring stretch. You’re sitting on the ground like a hurdler stretch or something. And what most people will do is try and relax the hamstring or stretch into the hamstring. But if you do the opposite of trying to lift your foot off the ground by tightening your quad, then that’s going to make the hamstring stretch.

Or it’s like when you’re doing a bicep curl, your tricep relaxes. When you’re doing a tricep push-down, your bicep relaxes because these are reciprocal muscles, and so activating one reciprocally inhibits the other one, which can allow it to relax and stretch more. But I’m so glad you said that, finding the thing that’s weak because it’s one of the things that I’ve seen with a lot of runners and I hope you can talk more about it, is they’re notoriously weak in exactly the places they need to be strong.

Brianne Showman:

Absolutely. Especially, talking about like a lot of what I see is foot and ankle issues. Obviously, Xero Shoes was started because of the foot and the bare foot and needing foot strength. I’m going to go foot ankle because they’re so much of that that goes on. When we’re talking most foot and ankle issues, post-tib tendonitis, perineal issues, even shin splints, these things are tightening up. We’re getting these inflammations in that area because it’s tightening up, because they’re weak and they don’t know how to actually stabilize either the joint it’s supposed to stabilize or the entire foot itself. I see a lot of these issues too with hamstring tightness. Like everyone tends to think they have really tight hamstrings, which you might, but the question is what is weak that’s causing that hamstring to tighten up so much? A lot of times it comes down to the core. You may do sit-ups all freaking day long. You’re still probably have a weak core because that’s just a small component of things that go wrong there.

Steven Sashen:

So are you including in the core… I mean, basically how high up and how low down are you going when you use that phrase?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, that’s a great question because different for every… Or everyone thinks differently on it. Technically, in my opinion and the way I’ve learned is the core is actually from your shoulders down to your knees, because it all is interrelated.

Steven Sashen:

I like that. And when you’re looking at foot and ankle things, how often do you see glutes, especially glute medius related to that?

Brianne Showman:

There is a lot of correlation between the glute med and the foot and ankle weakness and strength or injury just because of other torsions that are taking place there.

Steven Sashen:

Can you do me a favor, and for people who don’t know, can you help them identify what their glute medius is and then talk about that relationship and how you would work with someone?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, absolutely. So your glute med is one of your deep glute muscles. So the biggest one on your that you can palpate when you contract is your glute max. Underlying that is your glute med, it sits a little more lateral. So it almost sits on the outside of your hips, just above what you would think what a lot of people call their hip bone. That’s primarily where that muscle sits. And then what was the rest of that question?

Steven Sashen:

The rest of the question was talk more about the relationship between that and foot and ankle and what you might do with people to experiment. I mean, if they’re on their own, they’re not seeing you or someone like you, what they might do is an experiment to see what’s going on, whether their glute medius is in fact weak, how that might be impacting their foot and ankle.

Brianne Showman:

Okay, awesome. So, there actually is a lot of co-contractions that happen. So I know on this podcast he’s talked about short foot in the past. There is a co-contraction that happens between the short foot, the glute medius, and then our deeper core muscles. Like if that, where it just-

Steven Sashen:

Let me interject. So the short foot for people who don’t know, it’s basically just an isometric thing where… Well, you’re not imagining, you’re trying to shorten the distance between… Stand up and do this, you can do it sitting, but it’s easier standing at first and try to pull the ball of your foot closer to your heel while keeping your toes as relaxed as possible. So you’re basically just engaging the arch and the longitudinal arch, the one most people think of is the arch in their foot. It doesn’t matter if you’re flat-footed or higher arched feet, and really it’s an isometric contraction because you’re not going to be moving that too much. And so what you’re saying is that contraction ripples all the way up into your hips, into your glute medius.

Brianne Showman:

Correct. Like I’m standing here right now actually going short foot with my thumbs on my glute medius, and I’m actually feeling a contraction in that glute med when I do it. So, there’s a huge correlation and just vice versa, when you activate that glute med, that foot turns on a little bit better as well. One of the big problems we have though is our bodies are great at compensating for its weaknesses. We essentially find our workarounds for any weakness. This comes into play a lot if someone’s working on squats, and the big common cue is to get the knees out. Well, rather than activating their hips or activating the foot to actually get that to happen, I see people just totally pick up the inside of their foot, go on the outside of their foot to actually get their knees out. So if we can learn how to contract that foot, contract the hip together, we just gained so much more control and stability over that leg.

Steven Sashen:

That’s interesting. The cues that people give are often cues that they were given, and sometimes those people learned how to implement that cue correctly. Often they didn’t, and then they’re just repeating it because that’s the only way they think to say it. I mean, when you said that just now, yeah, the idea that you would roll onto the outside of your feet in order to get your knees out, it’s sort of like… It reminds me one of the first times I made a pair of running sandals for someone and I said, “Let’s take a little run together.” And the woman who I was with, she’s reaching her foot way out in front of her body and then pointing her toes to land on the ground, to land on her forefoot. I said, “What are you doing?” She said, “Well, you’re supposed to land on your forefoot.”

I said, “But you’re not supposed to prance. You’re supposed to have your foot underneath your body. You’re not supposed to be just bounding and landing on your forefoot.” So similar thing with squats, I mean, the obvious and easy fix for what you just described is keep your feet flat on the ground and then like stick a band around your knees and just make sure you’re pushing the band out while you’re squatting, which would be cue. And it just reminded me, the glute medius when I was in Bill Sand’s lab for my $50 diagnostic, whatever, he said, “Yeah, you got to do glute medius stuff.” And so if someone is going to be strengthening their glute medius, I’m not going to say which thing he taught me. I want to see which you say. They discover that when they try to engage their foot, they’re not feeling their glute tighten.

Sometimes they can’t just tighten their glutes at all. I’ve done this repeatedly with some athletes where they just can’t feel their glutes and I say, “This is not personal. Stick your hand on my butt.” And then I show them what it feels like when your glute goes from relaxed to tight and they’re like, “Oh my God.” And then I said, “All right, this is not personal. I’m going to stick my hand on your butt now, you just got to do the same thing.” And then they quickly figured out, but they just didn’t have the cue. So anyway, point being, some people aren’t really hip to intended, hip to how to do this. So if someone discovers they have this disconnect, what do you recommend they do for working on glute medius?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, that’s a great question. And the reason I have so many cues and exercise ideas is because everyone responds to a different thing. But I will say first and foremost, typically unless someone’s had… So standard, if you go to a therapist, what they’re going to do is all these laying down exercises.

For the most part, unless you’ve had a surgery and you need to start there, we function standing up, we should start training standing up, which is how I normally do it. Now, that glute med typically, or its job is to hold our pelvis and hips stable when we’re standing. So when we’re standing on a single leg, it’s going to fire more than when we’re standing on one leg.

Steven Sashen:

I get that.

Brianne Showman:

So a lot of times just to understand where it’s at. I’ll have someone just stand, have both feet on the ground, then lift one leg up, stand on it, and have their thumb in that area. So they just understand what that feels like to work with. From there, I’ll do some different isometric things as far as standing on one leg, pushing the other leg, saying next to a wall, pushing the other leg into the wall, just to start getting used to some isometric contractions there. And then from there start adding different movements to it. But that’s where I usually start is just getting someone to understand where is it, when does it fire, and how do we truly activate it in a functional position?

Steven Sashen:

I like the isometric one. I’ve never done that. So let’s break that down for people. So, you’re going to stand perpendicular to a wall. How far away from the wall? So let’s say, with your right shoulder facing the wall, so how far away do you want someone to be?

Brianne Showman:

So typically I will be, so my shoulder is on that wall itself.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, okay. I see.

Brianne Showman:

And then, the leg that is off the ground is the one that’s next to the wall.

Steven Sashen:

So you’re lifting it up just by bending your knee a little or flexing your hip a little bit?

Brianne Showman:

Correct.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. And using the other leg. So in this case, you’re left leg to try to push yourself into the wall without letting your hips drop or rise too much. Is that the idea?

Brianne Showman:

Correct.

Steven Sashen:

And then how hard is someone pushing, how many reps, how many whatever?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, not pushing real hard. Typically, with these isometric, just learn teaching the body how to move again. It’s about a 50% contraction, so you’re not using a whole lot of force. It’s just teaching the body how to move. Usually, 10 to 15 reps is good at a time before you… Because after that, if you’re just learning how to use that muscle again, it might start fatiguing out.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. And it occurs to me one indication, and this is going to be potentially tricky for people to self diagnose unless they get video or have someone watch them. But one of the things that I know that’s highly related to a clear indication of glute medius weakness is when someone’s running and their knees end up basically pointing in and banging into each other as they run. I saw a woman the other day and I was driving to have brunch with some friends, we’re doing socially distant outdoor picnic brunches and this woman’s running, and I almost pulled off the side of the road to yell at her like, “Stop doing that.” Because her knees were banging into each other and her feet were way, way out to the side. I mean, at first I didn’t think that this was someone who was actually meaning to run.

They realized they left their keys in the car or something. But then as I got closer, I could see this is someone who clearly spends a lot of time running. I mean, had all the gear, had everything, otherwise decent form, except her legs were completely out of whack. And I’ve seen a bunch of video from people like Irene Davis for example at Harvard showing that that’s one of the things that happens when your glute medius can’t stabilize your hips. The other is your hips just shifting up and down as you’re going from leg to leg. You just can’t maintain that stability.

Brianne Showman:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

So if anyone sees that in video or has someone watch you and sees that, then you really know this is definitely something to play with.

Brianne Showman:

Yeah. And one thing I want to throw in there too, when we’re talking glute med weakness, and yes, that hip drop is a huge, huge one that I see a lot with weakness in there, is it’s been found that just working on strength does not correlate with improvement in running techniques. So you can strengthen your glute med all you want, but that doesn’t mean that hip drop is going to correct itself when you’re running. So, you also have to combine some different running drills of learning how to control that hip in that position with your strengthening work in order to really get that carry over.

Steven Sashen:

So what would be an example of a drill? Because again, what we’re trying to do with the exercises is really… There’s a guy that I know, Essop Merrick, he’s a YouTuber out of the UK. He’s a former sprinter who refers to strength training as the thing you do after you’re done running to get your body back into balance because you just whacked it out from running, which I think is a fun perspective. So we’re doing these things, isometric things or whatever strengthening things we’re doing to awaken a neurological path, if you will, or keep us aware of something. But like I say, there’s no substitute for the actual thing. There’s no amount of foot strengthening exercises you can do that prepare you for running barefoot other than running barefoot. Now, that doesn’t mean don’t do them, but don’t kid yourself into thinking you can short foot your way into running a barefoot marathon. So if we’re going to do that translation into running, what do you have people become aware of or do to bring that into action?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, my favorite drill to start with, and you can find this on my YouTube channel, it’s called falling into a wall basically. But you’re facing a wall, literally like a board falling into a wall. You’re just going to keep your body straight and fall. But just when you get to that falling point before your hands hit the wall, you’re going to pull one leg off the ground as if you were bringing that leg up into your running position. And your goal on that is to maintain that good pelvic position when that leg comes off the ground, not letting it drop.

Steven Sashen:

I’m so glad you said right before your hands hit the wall, because I could imagine some people think they’re going to catch themselves with their face. There are a couple videos of this where have you seen the trust fall videos where people don’t know how a trust fall works?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

There’s someone standing behind them and they fall forward. Oh my god, it’s my favorite thing in the world. I mean, it’s not like someone skateboarding and then landing on the rail and wrecking themselves, but it’s pretty damn close. So that’s a good one, and I’m willing to bet that people will find that they’re better on one side than the other.

Brianne Showman:

Typically, one side’s going to be a little bit stronger and more coordinated than the other. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

And I don’t know if this is true also, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a number of people who discovered that the side that they’re actually stronger on is the side that they think they’re weaker on?

Brianne Showman:

Probably, possibly.

Steven Sashen:

I just say that thinking there are a couple of things that I do where I think my left side is the weaker side. My left leg is undeniably stronger than my right leg and I’m right-handed and right leg and right whatever, but my left leg is definitely stronger. And so like, “What the hell?” It just makes no sense to me. It’s very confusing.

Brianne Showman:

And it’s really interesting too, when I’m looking at hip drop, it’s like half the people have the injury on their right leg. Half the people have the injury on the left leg. So there’s really no correlation necessarily between if it’s this hip, the injury is always going to be the same side or it’s always going to be opposite side. It kind of just depends how your body’s compensated over the years and how your body wants to, how your body gets injured because of that.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and to that point, if you do tighten something up as a compensatory measure over time you become numb to it and you just don’t feel it anymore. And so, you can become aware of a tightness that you didn’t have where you think it’s on the right side and it’s the left side that’s actually tightening something up and you’ve been oblivious to that, and then you discover that and that changes your whole self-image and then you have to get a new name and buy a new wardrobe. I think it works that way. Something like that.

Brianne Showman:

Pretty sure.

Steven Sashen:

That’s what somebody told me. I’m not really sure. So backing up to the very beginning of your transition from working with injured people to working with people to try to keep them from getting injured, I love that you delineated that you’re working with predominantly runners and obstacle horse racers. That is an unusual thing to specialize in.

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, it’s super fun. I’ve been a runner since high school and then I started CrossFit about nine years ago now. And a couple of years ago I was like, “Why not meld these two sports together?” So I started getting involved in the obstacle course world, fell in love with it and realized there was a very underserved population there when it comes to more of the rehab type specialist, functional movement specialist. There’s a lot of coaches, but there’s not a whole lot that really understand the intricacies of the body, whereas the CrossFit world and just the running world is very inundated with that. So, it’s just the direction that fell into my lap and I was having a lot of fun with, and I absolutely love still working with running technique and the runners, so I still have pulled the runners in, but absolutely love my racers.

Steven Sashen:

So what are the things that are potentially unique about obstacle horse racers that you don’t see with other populations?

Brianne Showman:

I think that for me, the biggest thing is training for both elements. Like a lot of runners just run, whether it’s road or trail. CrossFitters for the most part, hate running. People typically hate running, but when you’re looking at the obstacle course racers, it’s both of them combined. And the really fun thing is half of them absolutely hate running, but they do it for the obstacle part. And-

Steven Sashen:

By the way, I’m that guy.

Brianne Showman:

… the other half were runners and then they were dared to do an obstacle course race by some other friend and fell in love with it. So it’s a very unique population because there’s people who absolutely love running, but then there’s people who hate running but do it because of the joy of everything else, and it’s just really fun.

Steven Sashen:

There’s some crazy obstacle courses. I mean, I’m thinking of the one, it’s a mud run thing where isn’t there something you’re crawling on your belly, you’re crawling through the mud, there’s something electrified above you.

Brianne Showman:

That’s a Tough Mudder. And to be honest, I refuse to do that race for that one obstacle reason.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, see, that’s a shame. I was hoping you were going to say, “Those are the people I work with and I just tase them so that’s the training is that I just hit them with 50,000 volts over and over until they don’t mind.” I think that would be a good thing of open up a gym and all you do is tease people and hit them with logs and all those things that people do just fall off of things, that’d be very entertaining. I wonder if there’s a whole training thing for those Japanese TV game shows where it’s just obstacle course and they’re just getting pummeled with things and thrown into mud baths. And there’s got to be someone who does that. I mean, there’s a whole ninja training gyms now. There’ve got to be goofy ass gyms for things like that.

Brianne Showman:

Probably are, probably are.

Steven Sashen:

I would want to go there. See, I’m one of those guys not only for me, I don’t do an obstacle of course run because there’s way too much running. As a sprinter if it was things like a 50 or a hundred between obstacles, I’m all in. If it’s a half a mile to a mile between obstacles, just get me a scooter. You’re not old enough for this. When I was growing up, it was a network battle of the stars, and so it was all TV and movie stars, mostly TV stars doing tug of war. I can’t remember what all the things were, and I just remember thinking as a kid, “I want to get famous just so I could be on that,” because I think I could crush that game. It was all just sort of obstacle course level things. It would be really, really fun. It’s like the celebrity version of the Presidential Physical Fitness test or something crazy like that.

Brianne Showman:

That’s awesome.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it was really fun. So just for the fun of it, since you’re such a big fan of OCR stuff, if you were going to talk to someone who was thinking about or maybe wasn’t even thinking about doing their first obstacle course run, what would you suggest to them in terms of how to pick one, what to do to prepare, what to be prepared for once they do it?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah. As far as picking one, I think the biggest thing with them is obstacle course racing, even though there’s obstacles, the biggest thing is the distance factor. There’s a lot more running in than there are obstacles, so you need to be able to cover the distance. If you’ve been a runner for a while, most likely that will not be an issue. If you haven’t been running for a long time, start with the ones that are more of a 5K distance. There are a lot of races that are in that 5K range.

From there just to get like start going to the park, if the parks are open right now. Start going to the park and play on the monkey bars and just be a kid and have fun. Just getting used to. I think the biggest part with them is the hanging obstacles. Most people, it may be a little bit heavy, but most people can lift some sort of sandbag or something because we lift things in our day-to-day life, but I think most people aren’t used to the hanging things. So even if you just go to the park and hang on the monkey bars for a little bit or actually do the monkey bars and just do things like that, I think that’s where people tend to have the worst or the most difficulty.

Steven Sashen:

That’s the thing. When I look at the Ninja Warrior stuff, it’s so much about grip, which is so disappointing it’s the one thing, I don’t have. Everything else, like all the jumping, all the bounding, all the whatever else I’m all in, but I’m just not a grip guy. It makes me very upset. Because that’s my other fantasies, I want to be like the oldest Ninja Warrior guy, but I don’t stand a chance.

Brianne Showman:

You just got to start training your grip.

Steven Sashen:

I’m such a fast twitch guy. It just seems unlikely. I don’t run distance for a list of reasons, but my VO2 max is low and I’m a VO2 max non-responder. If I do VO2 max training, just nothing changes. And people don’t realize that there are some people who don’t respond to doing long slow distance. It doesn’t change things. There’s some people who when they lift weights, it doesn’t make them stronger.

It’s kind of funny, and people don’t want to believe that. They want to believe that all they have to do is train long, slow and they get better cardiovascular conditioning, all they have to do is lift weights and they’re going to get stronger. And there’s some people who just don’t respond that way, or even worse, they make it stronger, but they don’t change their body shape, and that’s the reason they wanted to do it. I had a friend growing up, he was the strongest guy I ever knew, and he was twig thin, just had no muscle mass and would go into the gym and just lift the stack on every machine. It was so annoying, but also really cool to watch because people would like, “Look at him,” and not be able to figure it out.

Brianne Showman:

Actually, I’ve known people like that too. They would eat so much in order to try to bulk up and there was just like…

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Brianne Showman:

And they were strong, but yeah, there was just no adding muscle mass.

Steven Sashen:

And then there’s the opposite. There’s a disease, I don’t remember what it’s called, where you don’t produce myostatin and when you don’t produce myostatin limits the amount of muscle growth that you can have. And when you don’t produce it, you just get more and more muscle growth. I know of one person who has this disease and I grew up with someone who we’re pretty sure had it. Because when we were doing gymnastics, he’d come in bigger every day and we would say, “So what’d you do to get your biceps bigger?” And he goes, “Cheerios.”

I mean, just no lifting. He never lifted. He just kept getting bigger every day. Just the tiniest bit of stimulation just made it huge.

Brianne Showman:

Oh, wow.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it was fascinating. We once found a jean jacket that was too small for me to wear, and this guy was… I mean, I was 5’2″ at the time. This guy was like 5’11” and I could barely get this thing on. We spent an hour squeezing him into it. It took that long to get the buttons done. He could barely breathe. And then he just did a flexing thing like he was the Hulk and literally ripped the seams and popped the rivets on a jean jacket. It was awesome. Things you do with your freaky friends.

Brianne Showman:

Right.

Steven Sashen:

So, can you think of anything else? I want to back me up to the beginning again. Anything else? We talked about stretching and how that’s not necessarily a thing and ice. Actually, do you want to talk more about any thoughts you have about why ice is doing nothing other than temporarily numbing things? Do you have any other thoughts on why ice is not all it’s cracked up to be?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah, so in order for our bodies to actually heal, we need that inflammation response to happen. When we put ice on an injury, especially in acute injury, even though you think you need to take that swelling down, the swelling actually is what brings the healing properties to the area. So if we get rid of that swelling, we try to decrease that inflammation, we actually are delaying that healing process that’s going on. If you sprain your ankle rather than going home and icing it, you’d be better to just do some active range of motion, try to keep it moving, and just let that healing response happen. If you want to ice it to numb the pain, it’s not a bad thing necessarily, but it’s going to delay that healing process.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. I remember, I did say things with contrast. So ice and heat and ice and heat just going back and forth like a minute each. Do you think that does something different?

Brianne Showman:

The biggest thing is it helps control the swelling. So it doesn’t necessarily help the healing process at all, but sometimes that swelling can just be uncomfortable. I’ve done contrast myself when I was dealing with some injuries, so sometimes just getting that swelling out of there can help decrease the discomfort so you can sleep better or so you can concentrate for your job. So there definitely is a time and place and it’s nothing that you can’t do at any ever, but I would say if it’s an acute injury, let that swelling stay in there for a little bit and let the healing happen.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that’s a really interesting idea. You reminded me just backing up to the thing you just said is perhaps the key thing is just doing that active recovery, just as much movement as you can without pain to just keep things moving, keep things flowing. And it reminded me, I asked Dr. Irene Davis from Harvard, before she became the preeminent researcher in natural movement footwear, she was teaching people how to make orthotics. She was a physical therapy professor, whatever that would be at University of Delaware. And I said, “What was your aha moment about natural movement?” And she said, “One of the things was I realized people would come into our clinic and we would try to keep them moving as much as possible as whatever they could do, except suddenly we were putting their feet in orthotic that wouldn’t let their foot move and that didn’t make sense all of a sudden.”

And I say the same, I even say to people who are convinced that they need to wear thick padded motion-controlled running shoes. I go, “That’s cool. If you’re happy with those, do it.” But when you’re done, put on something like what we do so you can have that active recovery, you can keep the blood moving, keep everything flexible and let it possibly heal faster as a result. And then they go, “Oh, that’s okay.” Now what I don’t tell them is once they get used to wearing our shoes afterwards, they’re not going to be able to put on those big fit, chunky, heavy, ridiculous foot coffins, but you can’t tell people everything.

Brianne Showman:

Right. When I was in PT school, I went for a run in the morning and stepped down from a curb wrong, major ankle sprain, limped my way a mile and a half back home and went to class that day. I was like, “All right, got to keep this ankle moving as much as I can.” So I was doing ankle circles, alphabet while I was sitting there thinking I was moving my foot through a huge range of motion and I looked down and it was moving like an inch. It was so stiff and swollen. I was like, “That’s not good.”

Steven Sashen:

No, that is definitely not good. It’s so funny you say that, I actually was carrying a 50 pound box this morning out into our garage and tripped on one of the stairs and did exactly one of those things face planted after my ankle twisted. And I got up thinking, “Well, I’ll be very curious to see how this goes.” And then I just kept walking. And then until right now, and this was what, six hours ago until right now, I’d forgotten that it even happened. And so that made me feel pretty good. Wait, I’m checking down. Yeah, it moves fine.

Brianne Showman:

One thing that came to mind going back to the stretching a little bit too, is if you are… Or one of the downfalls was stretching is now say the stretching itself, but we aren’t teaching the body how to use that extra motion. So you stretch, but then you don’t train that say, we’re stretching our calves. Awesome. We loosen it up, but then you don’t actually teach the +body how to control that new range of motion, and so it’s just going to go right back to where it was. So a lot of times if you ever see me stretching on a video or in the gym, it looks like I’m stretching, but I’m actually doing more of an isometric contraction or I’m doing like a contract relax or something to actually teach the body how to be controlled in that end range.

Steven Sashen:

You just gave me a crazy flashback. I was getting PT for a calf pull from when I just got back into sprinting. So this is about 12, 13 years ago. So they were having me just facing the wall, just lean into the wall to get a calf stretch and then do that reciprocal inhibition thing, that tight and relaxed thing. So I was pushing in and then relaxing or trying to push away and then relax in. And I kept getting a deeper stretch and a deeper stretch and a deeper stretch. And I got really crazy far, and it felt really good until I couldn’t walk for the next week because I had just strained my calves so much from doing that. I had no idea.

In fact, to talk about stretching. There was a coach that I worked with when I got back into sprinting, and at the end of every workout he had everyone stretching. And one day I realized there was one other person who wasn’t doing it other than me. That person became my best friend because I said, “Why aren’t you doing any stretching at the end of the workout?” He goes, “Because it’s useless.” And I went, “I love you.” And one of my first actual sprinting coaches, same thing. Our cool down was, let’s walk around the track and talk and then get in the car. I mean, that was it. So, do you know from your either experience or research about any value to post-workout stretching or not?

Brianne Showman:

From what I’ve seen, there’s a whole lot of value, especially when it comes to endurance sports like when… I’m thinking if I do a workout that’s very hamstring heavy or triceps heavy when I’m lifting, sometimes stretching that out afterwards can delay the tightness that happens as that rebound effect, but even that’s far and few between. If you exhaust those muscles so much, they’re just going to get a little… Just that overuse tightness, not a bad thing, just an overuse tightness. When you get down to it, I don’t think most injuries are due to stretching or lack of stretching. The people who stretch all the time get injured just as much as the people who don’t stretch all the time. So if it makes you feel good to stretch afterwards, cool. But I don’t think it’s really necessary.

Steven Sashen:

Do we want to debunk the whole idea of a cool down?

Brianne Showman:

Depends what your definition of a cool down is. You’re walking around afterwards or hopping on a bike and just getting some low grade movements, I think is awesome. But as far as doing a cool down of stretching, I don’t think it’s really necessary.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, we did not prepare this, but you and I agree. Again, it’s one of these things that’s so interesting. I’m really curious to know how this idea evolved, where it came from and how it caught on. Because it seems like so many of these things just become like, they’re almost urban myths that have become a common wisdom and I’m always dying to know how. It’s an old teaching story joke that I love that’s related to this of a couple gets married and it’s the couple’s first Christmas, and the husband is making dinner and he makes a pot roast. And he pulls out two pans and cuts the pot roast in half and puts it in two pans and puts it in the oven. And his wife’s like, “Why’d you do that?” He goes, “Well, that’s what my mom taught me how to do.” So the next year they’re at mom’s house for Christmas and she cuts the pot roast in half and puts it in new pans and the wife says… Daughter-in this case, “Why’d do that?”

She goes, “Well, my mother taught me to do that because it cooks better. It cooks more evenly, it tastes better when you do it that way.” The next year they’re at grandma’s house and now great, whatever that the wife says, “So how come you do the cutting the pot roast in half? Does it make things taste better and cook better?” She goes, “No, I just never had a pan big enough for a whole pot roast.” And I think that there’s so many training things that are like that that just have been passed down because someone thought it out for some reason

And probably just pulled it totally out of their butt to begin with. Which by the way, you need to stretch to be able to pull something out of your butt like that. You need to really have good hamstring flexibility. So, it seems to be one of the only things I’m interested in is finding those things out to debunk them if they’re not useful, if they don’t help, like even sometimes warming up. To lift weights, I’ve never found that warming up helped me lift any better other than just going down and doing one set to know that I’m doing something, but I don’t do some elaborate warmup to get my heart rate up to a million and start sweating and all those things.

Brianne Showman:

Yeah. Now that you’re bringing up the warmup conversation, I think the biggest thing with doing a warmup is I call it activation. If I’m going to be doing overhead presses, I know I’m going to do decent weight. I’ll do some lightweight bottoms up kettlebell presses in order to just activate those muscles, get those dynamic muscles kicked in. If I’m going to be doing squats, I’ll do some banded standing hip abduction, some side stepping, some short foot stuff, just some things to get the legs activated. So, that’s how I view a warmup is it should be more dynamic. It should be activating those muscles that you intend to use during that workout.

Steven Sashen:

Well, you just nailed it. I mean, to be candid, I mean, or honest about it. When I’m going out for a sprinting workout, I mean, I do an extended set of drills and warmups, but the point of them is to make everything we do has a direct application to sprinting. For people who know A skips and B skips and C skips, there’s ways of doing it where it’s just glorified hip movement and not really doing anything, or there’s ways of doing it that are actually simulating and stimulating part of what the gait cycle should be when you’re sprinting. And I learned that from a sprinter who said, “You’re warming up like a distance runner who doesn’t know anything about warming up. You’re not warming up like a sprinter.” And the difference is dramatic. Some day I’ll have to go out and shoot video showing the difference. But I think that’s a really good point is to do things that are movement specific to activate those movements, to wake up that neural pathway. And I don’t think people think about that typically when they’re doing whatever their warmup is.

Brianne Showman:

And I think you made a great point there too that I like to talk to my athletes about is so many people do, whether it’s a drill or actually part of the workout is just going through the motions, not really thinking about how their body’s moving. Are they moving in a way to be powerful or are they just moving just to move? And it’s such a difference on how the body responds when you’re moving with intention and with purpose than if we’re just moving just to do it.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah, that is a good point of just bringing intention to it. And again, to be candid, it could be challenging because you’re not doing the thing that you want to do. I know the last three or four drills that I do in my warmup, I’m just going, “Come on. Can I just get these things done?” And they’re the most important ones. They’re the ones that are the closest thing to actually running, and I just want to get like, “I’m out here to run. What the hell’s going on?”

Brianne Showman:

Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

Well, anything else that you can think of that you would like to leave biped as we wrap this up?

Brianne Showman:

Bipeds.

Steven Sashen:

I’m okay with monopeds too.

Brianne Showman:

As long as you’re not just counting them out.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Brianne Showman:

I think the biggest thing is no matter what you do, if you are stretching or if you’re doing a dynamic activation exercise or whatever it is you’re doing, know why you’re doing it. Know the purpose of it. So many times we just go onto YouTube and we find exercises for hip pain or knee pain or to make me faster or whatever it is, and we just grab five or six of them and do them without knowing the actual purpose and intent behind them. If we don’t know that purpose, if we don’t really know why we’re doing it and we’re just doing it, you might be wasting your time.

Steven Sashen:

And how might someone figure out the why, considering that when they’re looking at something, they’re assuming the person they’re seeing it from as some sort of expert knowledge?

Brianne Showman:

Yeah. I think it’s really tough to figure out that why some videos when you look on YouTube will have it, some won’t. For me personally, if someone sees one of my videos and wants to ask me why, like what it’s for or why it’s out there, I’m always happy to answer someone’s question. So I think most people who put their information out there, if you look at it, you don’t know why it’s there or what the purpose of it is, if you reach out to them, I’m sure they’d be happy to respond.

Steven Sashen:

And my guess is that if you do that a couple of times, you’ll start to be able to hear the difference between something that seems like it really makes sense and something that sounds like more mythology.

Brianne Showman:

Absolutely.

Steven Sashen:

More just repeating what someone else said to them some number of years before. Well, that’s the perfect segue to if somebody does want to find out what you’re up to and learn some of the things that we’ve been talking about them with a little more depth, how might they find you?

Brianne Showman:

Absolutely. Easiest way to find me is my website getyourfixpt.com or you can’t find me on Facebook. I’m most active in the Obstacle Course Race Health and Performance Group.

Steven Sashen:

Getyourfixpt.com. Got it.

Brianne Showman:

Getyourfixpt.com is my website. And then you can also find me, I have my own podcast it’s called Highly Functional, where I talk to all sorts of experts about everything to help someone become a highly functional human.

Steven Sashen:

That sounds delightful. Well, thank you so much for… I mean, we dove into a handful of things that maybe some people are going to be in an uproar about because it’s what they’ve been spending their life believing, and maybe we can make lives a little simpler, a little happier for people. So I really appreciate you sharing all that.

Brianne Showman:

Of course. And real quick, if you are interested, anyone who listens to this podcast, if you go to my website or you can just email me at brianne@getyourfixpt.com, I would be happy to do a free running analysis for you.

Steven Sashen:

Ooh. And your B-R-I-A-N-N-E@getyourfixpt.com.

Brianne Showman:

Correct.

Steven Sashen:

So awesome. That is a splendid offer. I appreciate you doing that.

Brianne Showman:

Of course.

Steven Sashen:

Well, let me call it a day for everyone. Thank you all for being here. If you want to find out more about what’s happening at The Movement Movement, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com previous episodes, all the different ways you can interact with us. If you have any questions for me or recommendations for people who should be on the show or suggestions or you want to tell me, I have my head up my butt because I’m super flexible, then you can send me an email move@jointhemovementmovement.com. And as always, the most important thing, please go out, have fun and live life feet first.

The Tai Chi Secret to Stronger Glutes

marketdomination — Wed, 28 Aug 2024 00:00:36 +0000

Chong Xie is the author of “Secret of Athleticism”, inventor of the Hyperarch Fascia Training System and founder of the page “secret-of-athleticism.com” a website and discussion group founded to understand more about the foot, and its relationship to athleticism, as well as best training practices. Chong has a computer science degree and has been working as a technical analyst in the software industry for the last 10 years. His interest in the foot was piqued by seeing the large discrepancy in athletic performance, and Chong has spent many years on a quest to unlock the “secret” of athletic performance that is hiding beneath our shoes.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Chong Xie about the Tai Chi secret to stronger glutes.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How fascia training focuses on creating a more responsive facia for improved overall body function.

– Why foot health and movement behaviors can be influenced by being barefoot.

– How training your glutes and feet together is important for optimal movement and performance.

– Why foot mechanics are affected by the type of shoes you wear.

– How fascia plays a crucial role in movement and strength, emphasizing the need for intentional stimulation and training.

Connect with Chong:

Guest Contact Info
YouTube
youtube.com/channel/UCvadUJcVjdSKA0cUJpStQKA

Links Mentioned:
secret-of-athleticism.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

I often talk about how feet are the most important thing, but I also talk about how glutes are the most important thing. And maybe to train your glutes, you need to train your feet, and to train your feet, you need to train your glutes. What’s the connection? We’re going to find out more about that on today’s episode of the MOVEMENT Movement podcast — the podcast for people who want to know the TRUTH about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, starting feet first and where we break down the propaganda, the mythology. Let’s see if I can say that. Sometimes the outright lies that people have told you, about what it takes to run or walk or work out, or do yoga or CrossFit or ride bikes or anything you can think of. And to do it enjoyably, efficiently, effectively. And did I mention enjoyably? I know I did, because that’s the most important part.

If you’re not having fun, do something different till you are. I’m Steven Sashen, co-host, not co-host, host of the MOVEMENT Movement podcast, co-founder of Xeroshoes.com. I got those things conflated. And we call this the MOVEMENT Movement because creating a movement that involves you, and I’ll say more about that in a second, about natural movement. We’re trying to make natural movement the obvious, better, healthy choice the way people currently think of natural food. And that’s the movement. And the movement about you is spreading the word. This only happens because people discover the fun and benefits of natural movement and tell their two friends and they tell two friends, and they tell two friends and so on.

So if you want to be part of the movement part of the MOVEMENT movement, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. You’ll find all the previous episodes, all the places where you can engage with our content on YouTube and Instagram and Facebook, et cetera. You’ll see where you can like and share and review and give us a thumbs up or hit the bell on YouTube. All those things you know how to do. I don’t need to tell you. The gist of it is if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe.

So let’s jump in with my guest for today. Now I’m going to start, before you say anything, by seeing how much I can butcher your name in Chinese. Ready?

Chong Xie:

Go ahead.

Steven Sashen:

Okay. All right. Let me see if I got it. Xie Chong. How did I do?

Chong Xie:

Very close.

Steven Sashen:

So close. All right. How would someone who can actually speak Chinese say it?

Chong Xie:

Xie Chong.

Steven Sashen:

Xie Chong. Ah, interesting. Okay, thank you. I love the correction. My Mandarin is limited to five words, which gets me in trouble when I’m in China because if I say anything, then people assume that I speak Chinese and it’s bad news after that.

Chong Xie:

Yeah, gotcha.

Steven Sashen:

So Xie Chong, I don’t remember how I found you, but I was so, so intrigued because for all the people who talk about foot strengthening, and we talk about it quite a bit, you have a very different approach. There’s a nice Venn diagram and there’s an overlap, but there’s definitely things where your approach has a whole different foundation and some of the things that you’re actually doing are a whole different game. Do you want to give people just the Reader’s Digest version, the shorter version of what you are doing?

Chong Xie:

Yeah, sure. So I want to mention something most people are probably aware of first. So for example, when people have cellulite, that’s because the fascia tissue underneath is not in the right organization. This has a direct influence to how the skin, how the body functions. People have tried the acupuncture or any type of massage before, they will tell you, “Oh, it feels good afterwards.” So these type of techniques that people have tried and experienced before has certain type of influence on the fascia system.

Steven Sashen:

I’m going to back up a little bit and paint an umbrella over this. The fundamental thing that’s interesting to me about what you’re doing is you’re focusing on the fascia rather than musculature per se. Fascia is obviously related to muscle and musculature, but your focus is on fascia. Can you tell people, what is fascia and the difference between attending to fascia versus just attending to muscles?

Chong Xie:

Sure. So I guess, when we have all these scientific studies on the human body, what the scientists used to do is when they dissect the body to study the organ, study the muscle, they remove the fascia, which is the yellowish whitish content that surrounds and permeates throughout all the organs, all the tissues itself. And they thought this is something not important. But recent research just revealed the exact opposite because they have done studies through ultrasound studies on how fascia influences muscle contraction, force generation, and now we have more understanding of how acupuncture controls the superficial fascia and in return it has a benefit to the holistic fascia chain.

And now we have people, for example, Mike Myers, we have people in Germany, Dr. Schniepp talking more about fascia health. So fascia is really this connected tissue that permeates within your body. It’s everywhere in your body. There is no place that does not have fascia. So to understand it another way, it’s like that dark matter or dark energy permeates in the universe, but we don’t know what it does, but it’s just there. So fascia, it’s sort of like that.

Steven Sashen:

And so talk about what the difference is between doing fascial training and just doing, say, muscular strength training.

Chong Xie:

When you do muscular strength training, you’re working on the muscle fiber in the eccentric way much more. So you are inducing muscle for hypertrophy and increasing blood flow. You want to create this micro tear to the muscle and get it bigger so it can generate more force, more contractile force. Fascia training, on the other hand, we’re working on creating a more holistic body. We’re working on to create more responsive fascia web strength. This is what we’re working on. And because fascia integrates muscle, so there’s three layers of fascia that permeate and intertwines your muscle tissue. When your superficial layer of muscle moves and contracts, in order for it to interface with your interior muscle, it has to go through fascia. So by understanding this, if you are training your fascia and making it really compliant and making it really responsive, you can actually generate a lot of force over time and this can be measured.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. All right, so I want to jump into that some more and of course talk about where this came from, how you found this or developed this. But first because it is the MOVEMENT movement podcast, let’s do something movement-y. What can you share with people who are listening or watching to either diagnose something about the condition of their fascia or feel something that’s actually something exercising where they can experience what we’re starting to talk about?

Chong Xie:

Sure. Because our fascia starts from our feet. We all know about the plantar fascia, and I’m guessing a lot of people have suffered some type of pain in their plantar fascia in their life once or twice. So this plantar fascia, it needs to be stimulated just like anything else. If you don’t stimulate a healthy organ, it becomes dysfunctional and atrophies. The simple exercise or a simple assessment people can do is just by standing straight and in the heel-off position, meaning that they try to get on their ball of the foot and toes. If they feel their body start to crumble and wobbly and they have absolutely no control, and then the ankles start to shake, that tells me their fascial connection is weak.

And in this position, a lot of people who are quad dominant, meaning their quad muscle is neurologically dominant. Whatever they’re doing, they’re just using their quad, they don’t feel any glutes. Their glutes is also soft, but in a personal with good factual connection, their glutes is hard and activated in the heel-off position and they’re extremely stable. And this is what we see in Division I athletes, Division I athlete and professional athlete. All these guys functionally very sound. They don’t have to necessarily have big muscle, but their connective tibial strength is extremely high.

Steven Sashen:

So if someone’s going to stand on both feet and just elevate their heels a little bit, first of all, how high on their toes do you want them for this test and how long do they need to be able to stand stably before they get any shaking to determine that they’ve got some fascial strength, some fascial integrity?

Chong Xie:

Sure. They can stand about more than 45 degrees, more than 45 degrees, so around 45 to 55 degrees heel off the ground. And if they are only feeling their calves being taxed the most and they feel quad being taxed the most and they feel unnatural and wobbly, basically, that tells me that they need this type of training. They need training in their fascia because what that tells me is that their glutes is not working. And we know now that the muscle in the glutes, more than 75% inserts into fascia. So there is a lot of fascial content in the glutes that needs to be working in order for the person to actually use it in movement.

Steven Sashen:

I’m always amazed the number of runners that I’ve met, mostly more distance runners than sprinters. The number of runners that I’ve met who have no butts, they don’t engage their glutes at all. And I’ve been on the track, this is going to sound like I’m some sort of perv. But when we’ve done exercise, glute exercises and they can’t seem to do that, I’ll stick my finger in their glute and go, “Just try to contract that, make that harder.” And they often can’t do it. And then I do the opposite. I go, “All right, put your hand on my ass.”

Chong Xie:

I always do that too, so we’re the same. I say, “Look, feel it. This is what happens. This is what’s supposed to happen in your body.” And people feel it. They were like, “Okay, this is very different, different from mine.”

Steven Sashen:

Right. Well, it’s an interesting thing when I talk about walking properly. One of the first ways that I describe this, I said, “Just keep one foot on the ground, lift the other foot a little bit, and then contract the glute of the foot that’s on the ground, which because your glutes are hip extensors, that should make your foot go back, that’ll make you move forward and then just use your other foot to not fall on your face.” A lot of people could not figure that out because they couldn’t contract the glute first, which is what I was thinking when I was doing it.

So then I tried another cue, which was, “Okay, think about being a figure skater or being an ice skater, like a speed skater and drive your heel back.” And that one they could often do, and it started to give them the hint about using their glutes. But I think that a lot of what’s gotten people’s glutes turned off is just the style of walking, especially with big, thick padded elevated heel shoes where you just kick your foot out in front of you, land, and then try to essentially pogo stick off of it or hop over it rather than using your glutes and hamstrings as hip extensions, as prime movers. And it’s fascinating to see how people, they’ve just lost the ability to do that at all to walk like normal humans.

Chong Xie:

Absolutely. Having a very thick bottom of the shoe will change your mechanics forever. And this is on a subconscious level, you don’t realize. What it does is, first of all, you plantar fascia and shield that stimulation from the bare ground. That’s number one. That’s just coming from a neurological proprioceptive point of view. Secondly, what it does is even if you just add one inch, your body have to adapt to that one inch. So to adapt that, your foot actually have to relax even more to dorsiflex higher than necessary. You watch people who walk around, for example, in slippers or with very zero bottom shoes. They do not dorsiflex, they walk naturally. But with people who are wearing those high heels or very thick soles, they will have to dorsiflex to accommodate that type of mechanical interference. So over time, they lost the fascia tensioning in their foot, and also they have this wrong neurological pattern in their ankle. So now you have a double whammy there. And then because of lack of fascia tensioning, their glutes start to degenerate because everything’s connected.

Steven Sashen:

Well, it’s interesting you say that. I was on the track last weekend and there was someone I was… I watch people run all the time, and most of the time I just shake my head a lot. But this person in particular, I’m looking to see what his shin angle was when he was landing, where his foot was landing in relation to his body, everything fundamentally looked okay. But to your point, just as his foot was about to land, he dorsiflex, which for people who don’t know, it’s raising your toes towards your knee, just pulled his toes way up in a way that was completely unnecessary. Had he not done that, he would’ve been landing in a great stance, nice and strong, using his body correctly.

But to your point, I hadn’t really thought of it. It’s just like a habit that he’s developed of lifting his toes and again, completely unconscious. It’s a really interesting thing. So again, backing up, we’re going around a little bit. Talk to me about how you came to this. Where did you start to find this out, figure this out, put it together?

Chong Xie:

Well, I wasn’t born in the US. I was born in Beijing, China, and when I was young, I studied martial arts, and one of the things that we did was the training for martial arts, it’s horse stance or called ma bu. Basically you’ll get into a sumo squat fence and hold it there for a long period of time. And this is also known as the asymmetric fascia tensioning supposedly. And I did a lot of this. And when I came to the states, I started to play basketball and I started to play basketball with a-

Steven Sashen:

It’s required by law. You had to.

Chong Xie:

Yeah. So I am a very active person and I’m very competitive also, and I noticed that I was losing more than I’m winning, so I know that something is missing. Also, at that time, I was also brainwashed into all these shoe hypes, like, “Oh, this is a Jordans,” whatever Nike came up with. So I wear those because I saw all the stars, basketball stars wear them. Somehow it has some connection, so I wear them.

Steven Sashen:

Well, yeah, you want to be like those guys. Come on, you’re not a tall black guy, but what the hell?

Chong Xie:

Yeah, exactly. But what happened afterwards was I developed knee pain.

And of course like anyone else, at that time, I went to the doctor, I went to see what’s going on and he said, “Oh, your quad is weak. Your surrounding muscle around the knee is weak. You do this and that.” They gave some exercises. And also at that time I was young, I was around twenties and there’s a lot of fitness program out there on strength training, on vertical jump, on running, there’s lots. So I followed their programs. I was lifting weights. I was a gym rat. I was in the gym 24/7. Whenever I have free time, I was in the gym lifting. Because I’m not lazy person, I like to work to just better than myself. But then I realized over time I was relying on the muscles for all my movement and it became very different because I actually take myself and I see myself move and land. It’s very muscle-bound. It doesn’t look correct.

Then that same time, I met a very good friend, well, my best friend to this day, and his name is Peter, and I mention this a lot because he really made me see what is going on in the feet because he grew up in the mountains when he was young, and he always run barefoot. He always run barefoot, and he clearly remembers that in his memory. And this guy, I would say he was on the light build side. He’s not muscular or anything, and we used to work out and he definitely lifted much less than I did.

So I’m like, “So he doesn’t have the muscle strength, yet he’s extremely athletic and he doesn’t have any knee pain. What is going on here?” Then one day we were just watching a basketball game. I still remember, that was the game, I think it was one of the championship games, and we were at his house, and you know how in the Chinese culture, we don’t wear the shoe inside the house?

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Chong Xie:

So both of us were barefoot. So we were just having good time, and I realized that his foot has blisters on top of toes and his toes are curled and has a lot of these black tendons visible. It’s very different from mine, very different. So I asked him, “How did you get this? What’s happening?” He’s like, “I don’t know, it’s just natural.” So then I asked him to just do some movement for me and jump and land and move around, and I see it’s completely different than how I use my foot. So from there-

Steven Sashen:

Well, so wait. So what were you noticing?

Chong Xie:

Well, first of all, ankle stiffness, it’s tremendous. And also, when he was off his heels, he was extremely stable, extremely, and his glutes were hard.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, interesting.

Chong Xie:

At that time, my glutes was soft.

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

Chong Xie:

So I wanted to find out more about this. And actually at that time, I asked a lot of these gurus, fitness gurus, and I asked them, so I go, “The basic problem is that why is it when I lift weights, I cannot use glutes? If I lift weights, I cannot use glutes. That means when I run or move, I’m not going to be using glutes.” At that time, they don’t really have a good answer for this. And they told me, “Yeah, you got to do more isolation, glutes isolation exercises and stuff like that,” which I did, but I found it to be not helpful because once I get out of that isolation stance, the effect were off, you can’t use your glutes again because I’m actually standing to execute these movements versus lying down, doing the hip thrust. So then I did more research, much more research. I also studied Tai Chi. And while the Tai Chi principle is called silk reeling strength, and this strength, after I understand what it is, it’s really what described the fascia strength is.

Steven Sashen:

Silk reeling strength.

Chong Xie:

Silk reeling strength.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. It’s an interesting metaphor.

Chong Xie:

And physically, if you look at the silk web, you look at the fascia, wow, everything just matches. So that way, I understand, “Oh, this is what they’re describing.” Also, one thing that I mentioned before is that the principle of Tai Chi is one part moves, all part move.

Meaning, anything that you do in your body, any movement you execute in your body, it should not be a segmented movement. It should be using your entire tensegrity model in your body, which is your fascia. So with this knowledge, I look into their foundational training of Tai Chi. A foundational training of Tai Chi is really the Zhan Zhuang, which means that you stand in isometric, but what, I think 90% of the masters, they don’t talk about this, or maybe even more, maybe 98% don’t talk about this, is that they require the person to grip their foot. It’s a very generic term, often missed in translation and often don’t get talked about enough. So I did the exercise, I didn’t get the benefit I was looking for, but then I did not miss about that part. So I spent a long time over 10 years trying to figure out, and I found out what exactly.

Now I break it down to six steps to show people how exactly you can activate your foot the correct way. And guess what this happens? When you actually activate your feet the right way, your foot start to generate a neurological effect and your foot starts to move physiologically, you can see your foot. For example, you measure it three weeks, take a picture in 12 weeks, take a picture again in some other timeline. You can see your foot gradually change its look. Then I went to a neurologist to measure my glutes, EMG reading, and the neurologist said that he never seen something like this before. It was off the charts just standing there. I’m not doing anything, I’m just simply putting my mind to my feet.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. Wait, so you’re putting your mind to your feet and not trying to flex, if you will, your glutes?

Chong Xie:

I’m not trying to squeeze my glutes as well. I’m only squeezing my foot. I’m only controlling the plantar fascia, and it has a direct influence to my glutes. And it was off the charts because we also compare the EMG of me doing the hip thrust. The signaling is very different and it lasted much longer.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. Okay, there’s a lot to unpack here. So this whole concept of gripping the foot. Now FYI, so I did Tai Chi for a number of years and one of the things that was unusual about the group that I was practicing with, the teacher was a guy who started… well, when I met him, he’d been doing Tai Chi for 22 years. He was 27. His dad was a world champion judo player, and somehow got Eric into Tai Chi. And Eric, like you, he wanted to find the… and me as well, find the truth underneath some of these things. So if Tai Chi was the fundamental fighting art, which is the way it was, he wanted to see what Tai Chi was like as a fighting art, as a real martial art, not as something that old people do to relax.

And so that was the way we treated it, is that this was a real fighting art. And so we spent a lot of time doing isometric standing, a lot of standing on one leg, and I don’t know that we were doing what we would call gripping the foot, but we were certainly paying a lot of attention to the foot and where you were feeling the contact with the foot and what you were doing with your foot. We did a lot of crazy things in that class. Actually, you’ll get a kick out of this. The way I started doing Tai Chi with Eric was we actually met doing Aikido and then someone made a comment that Eric did Tai Chi, and I went over to his house. There was like five guys living in this house in Brooklyn, and someone said, “So have you ever had Eric push you?”

I said, “No, don’t know what you’re talking about.” So Eric says, “All right, well, I want you to stand.” I’ll describe this for people. “Just stand one foot in front of the other, bend your knees, put one of your arms in front of your body parallel to the ground, bend your arm so there’s a 90 degree angle between your upper arm and your forearm just in front of your body and just relax.” And he gently puts his hands on my forearm and he’s moving it around gently. And it was really quiet in the room. Their living room had no furniture. And I look over my shoulder wondering where everyone was, and they were all standing about 10 feet behind me holding a mattress vertically. I turned back to Eric and I’m about to say, “What’s with the mattress?” And he just looks at me. He goes, “Bye-bye.”

And what it felt like was that he just tapped my forearm and then I flew and hit the mattress 10 feet behind me, and once I got off the ground, I went, “Okay, I got to learn how to do this.” So it was a very different approach to Tai Chi, but again, I don’t think we paid as much attention. We certainly didn’t pay as much attention to the foot the way you did. And I’m curious if you could say more about this whole idea of gripping the foot because obviously that’s a piece of what we’re talking about.

Chong Xie:

Yeah. So on the bottom of the foot, that’s the plantar fascia. So a lot of people who grew up barefoot who are actually today’s elite athletes, for example, Ronaldinho from Brazil, who retired as perhaps one of the best soccer players in the world today. When they were young and then they had no money, they played barefoot. And when your body learns how to play barefoot, you’re not going to have movement behaviors that will hurt your foot or heel strike.

You are going to spend majority of the time on your ball of foot, and the stimulation from the harsh environment creates neurological stimulation. When the foot tried to adapt to that, it has to adapt it in a fascia tensioning way. That means providing more tension in your tissue, more tension in your foot. And if you are raised up in this type of neurologically stimulating environment with movement integrated, you are a very good mover. Now majority of the people today, we live in the urban society, we grew up with the shoe. So how do we actually create this type of phenomena? So there is the barefoot group that choose to adapt to the harsh environment and try to create some type of neurological stimulation by going barefoot. But if they are already grown, meaning, if neurologically they’re grown, if they want to tap into more of this connection, they actually have to put a lot of intentional effort into tensing their feet, into tensing their fascial connection to make it happen.

And before, I thought, “Let me just do my barefoot exercises and try to create some of the stimulation.” Yes, it does help a lot. But after I studied the work of Hubel and Wiesel, their neurological experiment on the cat, the visual cortex, I understand that there is a developmental progression of the neurological connection. So at certain time, if you don’t have enough neurological stimulation during the developmental stages, this means when we were younger, that part of the neurologic connection is forever weakened and it will take a much bigger effort to reverse that. And this is why I think in another way answers the question why some barefoot runners, they still get injured.

Steven Sashen:

That may be hard. I’ve also seen a bunch of barefoot runners who have… How do I want to put this? They figured out a way to run… Let me try that differently. They figured out a way to be barefoot and accomplish what they’re trying to accomplish, say, run a half-marathon or run a marathon. But when you look at them from the outside, they aren’t necessarily running. So for example, and here’s a weird version of this, Dr. Irene Davis at Harvard has a force plate treadmill, and she didn’t experiment giving people some biofeedback where there’s a screen in front of the treadmill with a line on it showing some amount of force. And she said, “I want you to run and just keep the amount of force that you generate below that line.” And I said, “I can predict what happened for a lot of people.” She goes, “What’s that?” I said, “They ran or they were able to keep the force below that line by doing something that looked like a really fast kind of weird walking like Groucho Marx walking fast.”

Chong Xie:

Yes, exactly.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. I said, “So they figured out how to move across the ground barefoot, but they’re certainly not doing something called running.” And similarly, when people talk to me about what exercises do I do before I run barefoot, I go, “There’s nothing you can do.” There’s things that you can do that you’re going to talk about, I’m sure, actually. “But the difference between any exercise you’re going to do and running barefoot, it’s night and day because you’re just way more forced, way more often. It’s not the same.” There’s certainly things that you want to do to get stronger, that’s helpful, but the thing that’s going to really make a difference is running barefoot. And it never occurred to me until just now that, I don’t know, certainly I may have missed that developmental cycle for using my feet properly, but I spent a lot of time running around as a kid, a lot of time barefoot. I was an All-American gymnast and doing floor and vaulting, so I spent a lot of time doing-

Chong Xie:

On your barefoot.

Steven Sashen:

Exactly. And before gymnastics I was a diver, which is also barefoot training in many ways.

Chong Xie:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

So a good history of that in advance, which is interesting. Anyway, that was a tangent from something. I don’t remember where we were going on that. Oh, the neurological thing of just whether you got it and what it takes to then train afterwards. Now to your point though, it’s funny, when we started Xero Shoes, I got introduced to some people who make sandals that are super thick with really big arches, and I couldn’t figure out why. And they said, “Well, it’s because once you’re over the age of 40, you can’t develop arch strength.” And I remember thinking, “That’s an interesting position to take.” I started running barefoot when I was 45, and from doing that, I developed arches in my feet. So clearly I had developed arch strength, so that was clearly nonsense what they were saying. And we know that 90 year olds when they do a weightlifting program can get stronger.

Chong Xie:

Yes, because the body adapts. Mm-hmm.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, exactly. Bodies can adapt. And it’s different for different people because there’s just idiosyncratic differences about how well you adapt to activity. But I love doing the combination of attending to the movement or the activity you want to do, say, running as an example, but then doing the supplemental work that it takes to really make that better. And knowing this is a long process. I don’t want to make it sound onerous or annoying, but just it’s a lifelong process of improvement. You can always be doing more to get a little better. I don’t know what it’s like in other parts of the world, I’ve only lived here. But it’s amazing how people just want a quick instant and when shoe companies say, “Hey, here’s our magic shoe that’s going to do that,” and it’s a big thick padded shoe with motion control and our support, which does the opposite.

Chong Xie:

Yeah, high-tag shoe, low tag foot. That’s how it is.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good line. But we’ve been so conditioned to look for an external instant answer that many people aren’t comfortable just doing the ongoing, I don’t want to use the word work because that just makes it sound like it’s a pain in the butt, but just the ongoing process of helping your body work. It’s fascinating.

Chong Xie:

Changing a habit.

Steven Sashen:

I think the habit is a really interesting part, and there’s two aspects of that that occur to me. One is during COVID, I’ve been doing more exercise than I have outside of COVID, not because I had more time or whatever, but because I was just getting bored I think. And I found that running Xero Shoes has been very tiring, and so I can’t do big workouts, so I had to find things that I could do in 15 to 20 minutes because that’s all the time I’ve got at the end of the day or the beginning of the day. And so that’s been really, really helpful. And what’s been fascinating is watching something that I knew from when I was a kid is that the benefits really kick in a little bit after you feel like you need to quit because you’re not seeing the benefits. It’s like you have to get over that hump and then you start to see it.

When I was a gymnast, my best friend and I, we were lifting weights one summer, the first month felt like we were just getting used to how to lift the weights. The second month we are seeing improvement. But it was the third month where we got much bigger and much stronger. Now, here I am 40 years later, I don’t know how quickly my body’s going to change and adapt, but some of the stuff that I’ve been doing, my wife said this morning, she says, “What have you been up to? Is it just because you’ve been playing with these kettle bells?” Which is something I’ve been doing lately. I said, “No, I think it’s just the consistency of just doing things that I’ve been doing in the last eight months that’s been making a difference.” And part of it was just getting over that urge that kicks in usually around the three or four week mark of going, “Got to try something different now, getting kind of bored.” Getting past that. Then it becomes a habit and that consistency is the most important part or one of the most important parts.

You talked about the six exercises or six stages. Do you want to chat about that?

Chong Xie:

So the foot, the first part is your toes. So remember the assessment you’ve done, right? I’ve taken a look at your feet as well, and your feet does show a lot of fascia tensioning signs, where if I look at someone else or pull someone else on the street and say, “Let me look at your feet.” They probably don’t have that.

Steven Sashen:

Do you want to describe what some of those are for humans who have seen my feet?

Chong Xie:

So the first thing is that you look at how the flexor tendons on top of your toes, how they are pronounced if they do show at all. Some people, they just don’t have any. They don’t show. And this has to do with the superficial fascia. If your superficial fascia has enough fascia web strength, these tendons are more likely to show than not. And also another very important clue is your anterior tibial tendon, which is the very thick tendon in the front, and this tendon is extremely important but many people don’t know. And I also see many trainers talk about this tendon in the exact opposite way. They tell people, “Do not fire this tendon when you exercise because it’s going to make you more tired,” and stuff like that. Yeah. There are people-

Steven Sashen:

So for people, if they want to try and see what their anterior tibial tendon is, this is the thing. Well, I can think of a bunch of ways of doing it. If you want to have someone do a little self diagnostic to find where that is and see how pronounced it may be, how would you do that for them?

Chong Xie:

So it’s between their shin and their foot, and it’s right in front of their ankle. There is a very big thick tendon. You cannot miss it. Yes, exactly. That’s the one. When people have problem activating their glutes and their glutes are soft, then they can’t really engage in any way whatsoever, this tendon usually is non-existent. So when they stand there, this tendon does not get activated at all. To activate this tendon, you need to actually use what I call the hyper arc because you have to engage your feet, you have to be activating your toes, you have to be activating all these intrinsic muscles in your feet down below. So this creates tension through your tendon. It’s like you can be a master violinist, you can have all the skill in the world, but you get this violin that the string has no tension. Whenever you’re playing, the tune is out of tune. You cannot work in such environment. So the body is the same. You can have the best mind in athletics, you can be a best mover, but if your body physiologically does not give you that tool, you cannot perform.

So the foot and the barefoot shoe together will make you that master violinist that you want to become. Because a lot of times we don’t pay attention to our feet.

Steven Sashen:

So toes, anterior tendon, what else?

Chong Xie:

And your arc.

So they all have to be activated synchronously in order for your anterior tibial tendon to be pronounced and activated. At this time, then you can do your movement. Your ankle should be actually locked in this form, in this position, which is pretty much a 90 degree angle. This is why people look at the athlete and they say, “Wow, this wonderful running form is so beautiful.” They just raise their knees and then they propelled themselves. It’s so elegant and effortless. Now, if you look at the heel striker, it’s really sore in the eye. You look at them, they’re struggling, either heel striking, and then they’re like, “Oh, my knee is hurting.” And also the people who are first transitioning from those horrendous shoes that they had and then to barefoot running or minimum shoes, because there’s so many years of neurological habit built into them, like what you said, they’re not running, they’re fast working, they’re running in dorsiflexion. So that’s what’s happening because they don’t know how to run because they never had that correct neurological teaching. Their foot was never taught properly.

Steven Sashen:

I’ll tell you, the thing about seeing people run beautifully. For anyone who hasn’t had the chance to watch live an Olympic level sprinter, it’s almost indescribable. I’m a really good sprinter. I’m a master’s All-American. I’m one of the fastest guys in my age group.

Chong Xie:

I believe you. You are very high level.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I’m not saying that. I’m saying, but watching me is so different than watching someone who’s a 25-year-old guy or woman who is top of their game. There’s a guy… oh gosh, I just blanked on his name and I always do, it’ll pop into my head, that I got to train with a couple of years ago. He and his wife, his wife is Mandy White, and his name is… he’s a 200 meter and 400 meter runner, and oh, it’s killing me. Anyway, watching him when he was training, his ground contact time was so short, it looked like he almost didn’t hit the ground. It looked like maybe his foot was approaching the ground and then he stepped on an IED, and then he was getting so much movement out of that, so much propulsion out of that. Again, it looked like he stepped on a bomb and it blew him forward.

It was amazing. And similarly, I happened to be in Berlin when Usain Bolt set the world record, it was him and Tyson Gay, and Asafa Powell. Watching them run, it just doesn’t look human. These are the best in the world-

Chong Xie:

Of course.

Steven Sashen:

And it looks like whole… There’s a weird combination of effortless and effortful, but it’s just inconceivable. Usain Bolt, I was at the 70-meter mark about five rows off the track, and that’s about when he hits his full speed. So this guy’s running by me at about 29 miles an hour, and when you see somebody running of their own volition fast enough to get a speeding ticket in my neighborhood, here’s what your brain does. Your brain goes, “What?” Because it’s like nothing you’ve ever seen before. It’s amazing.

Chong Xie:

Exactly. So a lot of athlete that I work with who are trying out for professional teams, we have to get their four-yard dash time from, for example, 4.7 down to 4.3 and 4.4. When we do this type of training to the foot, what we’re trying to do is create fascia tensioning in the ankle. So imagine if you have any type of slack in your joints when your foot, just like what you said, when your foot impacts the ground, if there’s any in any other joints, that force is going to leak out. That energy is going to leak out right away. But your joint is not meant to handle force, but fascia is what’s supposed to be keeping them together and acting in unison. So by doing fascia tensioning training, you can make this holistic change stronger. This is how we can get athlete from running 4.7 to 4.4.

Steven Sashen:

Love it. That’s a good transition point. Can you talk more about what the fascial training looks like? And by the way, for people who are listening, you’ve got a whole program about this. It’s not going to be a surprise. We’ll tell you about that towards the end. But can you give people just a taste of what that looks like so they get a sense of it?

Chong Xie:

Sure. So first we have to understand what fascia is response to. We know fascia is important, but how do we actually make it respond to what we want? So first I look at the acupuncture. Acupuncture, the reason why people poke a needle in you, they’re not hurting you. Or you have some type of magical spot in your body. They’re poking you to activate that magical spot. It’s not that.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, I’ve got to stop right there. I so love that you just said that because it’s one of my favorite things when people talk about acupuncture, and it’s like you go to five different acupuncturists for the same thing and they’ll poke needles in five different spots. And so to hear someone say, “Yeah, no, there’s a there there, but not for the reason that you’ve been told,” that’s my favorite thing for someone to hear. So what it doing, please continue.

Chong Xie:

Sure. So what recently people found out this is the work of Dr. Helene Langevin from Harvard Medical School. So she had a curiosity on acupuncture as well. So using the ultrasound study, what she saw was that when the needle penetrates your skin, actually what happens, your fascia try to feed it as there is a wound. So your fascia react to it by grabbing the little tiny little. So it intertwines and circles around the needle so when the practitioner actually use that little needle and twist, what it does, it creates a spiral, and that spiral pulls your entire fascia with it. And by studying on the mice, it’s not just on that point; it’s the entire body.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting.

Chong Xie:

So what that creates is a holistic effect to your fascia sliding, because also what we learned today through ultrasound study in vivo is that people who have chronic lower back pain, their fascia and muscle sliding is much less than the healthy people who have no chronic back pain. So by doing acupuncture, by putting that needle there and manipulate it, by moving the fascia physically, it creates healing. And here’s another thing, lymphatic system follows the fascia system. For those people who don’t know about lymphatic system, lymphatic system is really like a sewer system in the body. Anytime you have an injury, lymphatic system has takes care of getting rid of all the dead tissues, the dead proteins, or accumulation of proteins in any type of injury site. By having your fascia system moving, you encourage the lymphatic system to help you get rid of this waste.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. Okay, so-

Chong Xie:

So my training, so here’s the type of my training-

Steven Sashen:

We’re not suggesting that acupuncture is part of the training, but that was a good lead in.

Chong Xie:

So my training does the exact same thing, but it does it from inside.

Steven Sashen:

Got it.

Chong Xie:

So without somebody poking you with a needle and manipulating your super layer fascia, when you introduce fascia tension into your feet, for example, you are creating a anchor for your fascia. Because what happens is that when the fascia responds to isometric tension, that’s when the fascia gets used. If you are moving away, it’s your concentric eccentric, that actually utilize much less fascia.

But the isometric state utilize your fascia the most. So this is why we developed the method of training the foot so that you are creating an anchor for your fascia. Now you have a anchor in your fascia. Basically let’s say you have a rubber band, now you hold onto to the one side of the rubber band, then the other side, whatever you’re doing, it has to go from the anchor to that point. Now you’re stretching all your fascia or your movement. As of before, if this part has no anchor is loose, whatever you’re doing, you’re using in the muscle, it’s segmented. So the fascia will be used much less and it doesn’t create that type of movement effect.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. So can you give people an example of, I want to go for one of the more unusual fascial training exercises that you would teach. I know what my favorite is, but I want see which one you would pick that might be surprising for people to discover is useful.

Chong Xie:

To be surprising? I would probably say, well, the simplest is probably people don’t get is the Hyperarch Hop. And I see a lot of trainers on social media try to copy my work. So they say, “Look, if you do this way, it creates a fascia tension.” But they’re doing it wrong. People think, “Okay, is this just a regular jump? You’re just hopping, you’re just doing rhythmic jumps. What’s different?” There is tons of difference in the Hyperarch Hop and the regular hop.

In the regular hop, what I said before, anterior tibial tendon is not activated. So the person who has no expression of the anterior tibial tendon when they hop, every hop they do is muscle-driven, meaning their fascia is actually not doing the work and their heel will drop, and the ankle will give. So every step they’re hopping, they’re giving. This is how regular people hop. Now you go to the Hyperarch Hop, now you have to use fascia tensioning. Now you have to put a lot of tension in your fascia. You secure your ankle, your ankle is not moving. Now when you hop this way, it creates a holistic fascia chain and this whole chain is moving. And what it’s also doing is if you have anterior knee pain, that’s because there’s entangled fascia tissue there. What it will do is actually pulls, it pulls the fascia because we’re doing this exercise, it pulls the fascia and stretch it, and this stretch, it raise healing.

Steven Sashen:

Interesting. I’ll tell you, my favorite was actually your version of the depth jump, which for people who don’t know depth jump, you’re going to stand on a box of some height and just step off of it and then catch yourself, just land basically. And the way that this was typically taught by the people who brought a lot of plyometric training to America from Russia is that they want land flat-footed and sometimes land even on your heel. And the idea is just catch yourself. It’s the eccentric part of any squat motion. So you’re just slowing yourself down when you land. But your version of landing on the toes, basically, on the ball of the foot, and engaging the arch and keeping that ankle stable, a whole different game.

Chong Xie:

Yeah. Different.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. And I love that one. I can imagine that for many people, if they’re new to this, they can try that and they won’t be able to keep their heel off the ground, their heel.

Chong Xie:

They cannot.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that’s one of the reasons that I really love that exercise is that it’s an almost instant barometer for how well you’re doing just because you can feel instantly how stable your ankle joint is when you land.

Chong Xie:

But let me tell you a very fascinating aspect of that exercise. If you ask someone who is, I’ll say before seven years old, who never had too long of this bad neurological programming from the big shoe companies, you ask a little kid to jump on land, they can do it naturally. They can do it. So what does that mean? We are basically damaging ourselves over time. You are supposed to be adult and you cannot do something that you did when you were a child. And all kids are faster movers. They don’t have muscle.

Steven Sashen:

Oh. At the beginning of COVID, they closed all the public schools around here. And so none of the tracks were open, so we couldn’t find anywhere to train. But there was this one, it’s called a charter school, semi-private school that was way east of town and where the majority of the population in that neighborhood was Hispanic. That’s relevant because when we went to that track, there was a whole bunch of people there and they were all playing soccer, many of them barefoot. And then the kids, especially the little kids were running around the track and they did two things. One thing they did was they ran with perfect form. Just impeccable form. They were mid-foot, full-foot landers. Their feet were right underneath their body. They had just the right amount of body lean.

But the other thing they did was my favorite, was they were laughing when they ran, they were smiling when they ran, they were doing it because it was what they did to play. And when they were tired, they would stop not for very long and then start again. So it was just enough to reset and away they went. And it was just so much fun to watch. And usually it was like a pack of four or five of them holding hands doing this and just running around the track for fun with, again, perfect form. It looked like they were expending no energy to do it.

Chong Xie:

It should not be. Mm-hmm.

Steven Sashen:

Ah, man. It was delightful. And then there was the older kids who did not look like that.

Chong Xie:

Yeah. I think this is why your work is very important to the next generation because if we keep letting all these shoe companies, the big shoe companies have our kids wear these big thick soles and just wire them neurologically incorrectly, we are basically destroying ourselves. And then we are spending more money on Medicare for chronic pain than anything else. We need more minimum shoes for kids really, because before, we just don’t have those.

Steven Sashen:

No, and to be candid, it’s a little tricky because manufacturing shoes for kids, the manufacturing costs about the same amount as manufacturing for adults because it’s in the labor, not the materials. And so most companies who sell shoes for kids don’t make money doing it or make very little money, or they’re selling super expensive shoes for kids. Making good shoes for kids is challenging from a business perspective. It’s something we’re looking to be doing more of.

Chong Xie:

Can I give you a suggestion?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, please.

Chong Xie:

I think for example, the first thing is people’s awareness of how important the foot is to their neurological health and also their fascia health. But I think if you can create a subscription model, so you’re not just selling one pair of shoes, you’re selling an entire generation, a kid’s entire generation from age six to age 18, you subscribe to this model of development, then you can make money.

Steven Sashen:

Possibly. Suffice it to say, it’s a bit challenging from the business perspective and something that we’re looking to be doing more of and expand. Because obviously I agree with you and in fact, Irene Davis at Harvard has a great line. She goes, “If we just get kids wearing shoes like yours, in 20 years, we won’t be treating adults for the billions of dollars of problems that they currently present with.”

Chong Xie:

I agree.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. And that would be a very different world. I want to wrap it up in a bit, but I want to bring one thing up that just popped in my head for the 10th time. Can you say something about flat feet and high arches? And I’ll preface this by saying that people, especially in America, have a lot of opinions about those two things that are not based on reality. So can you chat about that?

Chong Xie:

Right. Yeah. I know a lot about this and I think maybe some of the people that had different opinions about if the high arcs are better or lower arcs is better or flat arcs if it’s a defective or not really. A lot of these arc height has to do with genetics. You can have high arc functional, you can have low arc functional, you can have almost no arc functional. The key here is how much fascial connection you have to your glutes and upstream.

A lot of the NBA athletes today, they are African descendant, and they have almost no arc, and yet they’re performing the highest at the highest level. So chasing just the arc high physically from the outside, again, it’s superficial type of desire. It is not going to get you anywhere. So having, let’s say, an insole, creating some type of arc, that only helps temporarily. It also creates a bad neurological habit, and that does not create fascial connection from the feet to the glutes. So really the key here is to develop that healthy fascial connection from the feet to the glutes. Then you’ll love your body much more. You don’t blame your parents, “Why have this foot?”

So I see a lot of people that do that. They hate their body because they blame their parents. “Oh, your foot is flat. Now I’m flat, now I have pain.” But that’s no true because your parents never wear those type of bad shoes that you had when you were a child.

Steven Sashen:

Yep. Well, I’m not surprised to hear that the way you’ve presented that is almost exactly the way that I say it. I say it’s 90% genetic and arch height is not the issue. Strength and flexibility are the important things. Some people who have very high arches, they just need to get a little mobilization going because they’ve gotten just into this pattern where things are hypertonic but not being functional. And so yeah, you went exactly where I imagined you were. Although we did not prepare this in advance, and I didn’t expect that.

So if people want to discover more about what you’re doing, and I highly recommend that they do. I was putting together a list of people who are developing programs that are really valuable for foot and ankle strength and training. And there’s only about a half a dozen that I’ve seen that are in any way worth paying attention to. Yours, of course is one of them, which is why we’re having this conversation.

Chong Xie:

Thank you.

Steven Sashen:

So how can people find you and what you’re doing and get involved and discover more for themselves?

Chong Xie:

My website?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah.

Chong Xie:

Secret of Athleticism. Or you can Google my name, Chong Xie, Hyperarch. Hyperarch Fascia Training.

Steven Sashen:

Well, so wait, let’s back up. So Secrets of Athleticism, did I get it right?

Chong Xie:

Yes, that’s the website.

Steven Sashen:

Okay, so that’s one. And then Chong Xie, so it’s C-H-O-N-G X-I-E. That they can look you up that way. You’ve got a lot of stuff on YouTube.

Chong Xie:

A lot.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, so there’s a lot to play with there. And anything else that you want people to know in terms of just finding out more?

Chong Xie:

Just keep on looking for our work in the UFC, because right now we’re two-time world champion, and we’re going to continue doing so.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, that’s a good one. I like it. Well, thank you so, so much. Again, I wish I had any idea how I first bumped into you, and I feel horrible that as long as I’ve been doing this, that it taken until now, but so be it. Here we are. And I can’t encourage people enough to just go check out your work.

So thank you, thank you, thank you. And for everybody else, thank you as well. As a reminder, just go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. If you can’t remember the links for this, we’ll put them in the show notes so you’ll be able to find them there. And as always, if you want to find out previous episodes, et cetera, et cetera, and how to find all of our content in different places, that’s at www.jointhemovementmovement.com. If you have a request or a question or suggestion, drop me an e-mail, move@jointhemovementmovement.com.

And as always, like I say, if you want to be part of the tribe, please do subscribe and most importantly, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

The Problem with Olympic Sprinters

marketdomination — Wed, 21 Aug 2024 00:00:39 +0000

Sprinting at the Olympics is a thrilling event that showcases the pinnacle of human speed and athleticism. From the explosive starts to the photo-finish endings, sprinting captivates audiences around the world. But what goes on behind the scenes to make these races possible? Let’s dive into the world of sprinting at the Olympics.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement about the problem with Olympic sprinters.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How the evolution of sprinting technology has transformed race outcomes, highlighting the role of innovation in athletic performance.

– Why there is an ongoing struggle between sprinters and anti-doping organizations.

– How watching unfamiliar events at the Olympics allows viewers to step out of their comfort zones and explore new events from a fresh perspective.

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

What does a competitive Masters All-American sprinter, me, think about the sprinting at the Olympics? Well, Let’s find out on today’s rant on The MOVEMENT Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first, those things at the end of your legs and where we break down the propaganda, the mythology, and sometimes the outright lies you may have been told about what it takes to run or walk or play or do yoga or CrossFit or anything you like to do, and to do those things enjoyably and efficiently and effectively. And did I say enjoyably? Of course I did. I say it every time, because that’s the most important thing. If you’re not doing something you love, you’re not going to keep doing it. So, find something you enjoy doing, maybe find a friend and make it even more enjoyable.

I’m Steven Sashen, co-founder and Chief Barefoot Officer here at zeroshoes.com and .co.uk and .eu and we call this The MOVEMENT Movement because we, and that includes you, more about that in a second, are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it is made to do, not getting in the way of doing that. And the way you can be involved is simple. Go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, nothing you needed to join. There’s no secret handshake, no money involved. That’s just the website that we got and it’s where you can find all the places you can engage with us on social media, all the places you can download the podcast if you want to get it somewhere else from where you got it this time and of course, all the previous episodes of which there are quite a few. In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe and then give us a thumbs up and a like hit the bell icon on YouTube and do all those things that you know how to do.

Okay, so Olympics are in full swing as of the time that I’m writing this, and just the other day, Noah Lyles won the 100 meters and people have been asking me, “What do you think?” Well, I’ve got a couple thoughts, really three. The first is I find it funny that… Maybe four, actually. I find it funny that Noah’s going around being super, super psyched about winning when he won by literally an inch, maybe less. In fact, if Omega, the people who do all the timing things for the Olympics didn’t deploy a new camera system that shoots 40,000 frames per second, there’s a decent chance this race would’ve been deemed a tie, so there’s that.

Let’s look at a second thing though. I mean, first of all, the race was amazing. A lot of people all bunched up at the end, which was great. When I was in Berlin when Usain Bolt set the world record of 9.58, which is going to be my next point, the amount of space between him and Tyson Gay and then between Tyson Gay, and I’m pretty sure Asafa Powell was so great that when I was sitting at the 70-meter mark, I thought it must’ve been a false start, because there was no way the 100 meters would be that spread out, which brings me to Usain Bolt. So, everyone’s going on and on and on about the time of this race, it was a 9.79 for Noah. It was a 9.786, I believe doesn’t really matter. Point is Usain Bolt’s world record 9.58, and no one has come anywhere close to that in the last, oh God, that was 15 years ago when he set the record, not even him. So, this is an interesting thing to ponder, what happened?

And another thing, look, I am not making any assumptions. I’m not making any statements. I’m not saying what I’m about to say is true. I’m literally just asking this as a question. Every Olympic and world champion sprinter that I’m aware of, I’ve seen this reported somewhere, and I wish I had the actual stats on this to show it to you or a link to it, has at some point tested positive. Usain Bolt hasn’t, even though everybody else on his Jamaican team has, or at least all the top guys did. So, that’s intriguing. Carl Lewis, there are some people who say that when he won in ’88 in Seoul, tested positive for a bunch of stimulants, but then said he had a head cold and they went, “Okay.” Ben Johnson in ’88 said that he tested positive for something that he didn’t like taking because he had tried it, wasn’t a big fan of it.

He also claimed that there was an American who had doped him, put something in his water. When that person, I won’t mention his name, was asked on a 30 by 30 episode on ESPN, “Did you in fact dope Ben Johnson like he claims?” The guy’s response not on camera was, “Yeah, maybe I did. Maybe I didn’t.” Which is an interesting way to respond to a question like that. Here’s the third one that I want to highlight. There are people that have analyzed Jesse Owens and looked at his joint mechanics and joint angles and speed of joint movements, et cetera, and said that if he was running on a modern track surface that he’d be second to Usain Bolt, certainly running under 10 seconds for the 100, and he was running on a crappy track surface. Bring something up. Actually, I’m going to jump in. Here’s the fourth thing that I just realized. A lot of people love to say, “Hey, what shoes were they wearing?”

Oh boy, let me just jump to point number four or actually point three is it ain’t about the shoes. Even Eliud Kipchoge, the guy who ran the sub-two-hour marathon had articles that came out about him where he was quoted in the headline as saying, “It wasn’t the shoes, it was my legs.” If you look for those articles, you’re not going to find them anymore. There may be some company that thought not a good look for them when they’re claiming it was all about the shoes. I will not mention that company’s name, but I can’t wait to ride my bikey home from work today. And last but not least, when it comes to this race and how good it was or wasn’t, frankly. In 1971, there was a guy named Delano Meriwether who is a physician. He was the first Black student admitted to Duke University Medical School.

He was the only Black student in his four years that he was there. He liked to go to the track and burn off steam because racism, and he became a world-class sprinter. In fact, in 1971, he set the world record for the 100 yard dash, and that record still stands, because after he did that, they changed everything to meters around the world. Unfortunately, he didn’t get to compete in the Olympics because he ended up having a hamstring injury, but he ran a 9.0 100 yards. Now, if you know anything about sprinting, you will know that that equates to probably about a 9.8, maybe 9.8 100 meters, which means Delano Meriwether in the shoes that he was wearing in ’71 on the bad track surface that he was running on in 1971 would’ve been, I think third in this 100 meters in the Paris Olympics.

So, what’s that saying about the evolution of technology? Let alone athletes or possibly performance enhancing substances, which could be anything from slim gyms to Pop Tarts to other things. There’s actually, if you haven’t seen the movie, Bigger, Stronger, Faster*, find it and watch it. There’s one thing in the movie that’s very interesting, in one epilogue to the movie. The interesting thing is there’s a sports scientist who said, “Just imagine if you…” Well, they’ve actually done this, but well, do this in the right order. He says, “Imagine that your livelihood…” I mean the future of your financial independence for you and your family and maybe even your village depending on where you came from, “… was dependent on you doing well in a race and you had the opportunity to do well in the race by taking some sort of drug. Would you take it?”

The answer’s probably yes. What if you knew other people were taking things? Would you then do it? The answer’s pretty much guaranteed to be yes. There’s a guy who, I think it was from the Seoul Olympics who was part of the World Anti-Doping Association, or at least part of the American version of that, kept all the samples that they took of athletes and 20 years later tested them to see if any of them were showing up positive for things that they didn’t know how to test back in ’88. And he stopped after, I think 100, because everybody tested positive. So, this is a cat and mouse game, and the cat in that equation is World Anti-Doping, the mouse or the athletes and the people working with those athletes and the cats typically are blind, deaf, dumb, and have no claws. That’s my take on those things.

So, was it really an exciting thing to watch, and was it incredible to look at what technology could show about who the winner was? Was there confusion about whether it’s about your foot crossing line or some part of your torso crossing line? All of that is all very interesting. Suffice it to say, I got to just leave it at this, it wasn’t that exciting or interesting for me to watch because I know that everyone is comparing just all the people in this race to the people in this race, and not often taking the historical context and wondering what’s really going on. So, there’s more to it than that. In fact, you can leave comments about what you think may be going on or not going on, what you thought about the race. Leave comments wherever you can leave comments, wherever you can find those.

You can do that at jointhemovementmovement.com or wherever you happen to be watching this or listening to this if they accept comments. Anyway, that’s my rant for the day. I’m going to go back to watching things that have been really exciting, like wrestling and very tense, like archery, that’s wrapping up. Watch events that you’ve never seen. That’s my only recommendation for the Olympics. I went to the Atlanta Olympics and I went to a lot of events actually, I even went to the trials, because they were held all around Colorado for the Atlanta Olympics, and I went to everything that I knew nothing about and some of the most exciting times of my life. So, go watch things nothing about and think you won’t be interested in, and maybe you’ll be surprised and happy for that suggestion.

All right, again, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, find previous episodes, find places you can engage with us. Give us a like and a thumbs up and a share, and a five-star review and hit the bell icon on YouTube. And again, you know the drill on that. And if you have any recommendations, suggestions, people you want to have on the podcast with me or if you just want to chat or if you think that I’ve got cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, happy to hear all of that. You can send me an email. I’m at move, M-O-V-E, @jointhemovementmovement.com. And until next time, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

Don’t Workout to Change Your Body

marketdomination — Wed, 14 Aug 2024 00:00:54 +0000

Bart Potter is the author of Jiffy Body, The 10-Minute System to Avoid Joint and Muscle Pain. Since 1995 Bart has taught people of all ages a simple approach to avoid pain and tune-up their bodies. He enjoys sharing quick tips for a healthier and happier body, brain and life.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Bart Potter about why you shouldn’t work out to change your body.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How doing a variety of activities throughout the day can help build muscle fiber, increase bone density, and improve joint range of motion.

– How moving your feet in slow circles can activate important muscles and improve lower leg, ankle, and foot function.

– How improving muscle balance through varied movements can strengthen counterbalancing muscles and enhance overall body function.

– Why exploring new activities can help maintain flexibility and expand your range of motion.

– How consistency in practicing body mechanics daily can lead to significant improvements in body function.

Connect with Bart:

Guest Contact Info

Facebook
facebook.com/jiffybody

Links Mentioned:
jiffybody.com

Connect with Steven:

Website

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen:

If you are looking to improve your body in every way you can imagine, maybe working out is not the way to do it. We’re going to find out more about that on today’s episode of The MOVEMENT Movement Podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Usually starting with the feet first, because those things are, in fact, your foundation.

We talk about the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the lies, flat out lies, that you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or play or hike or dance or do yoga or CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do, and to do it enjoyably, effectively, efficiently. Did I mention enjoyably? I know I did. Because if you’re not having fun, please do something different until you are. And we call it The MOVEMENT Movement Podcast, because we’re talking about natural movement, our goal here at Xero Shoes.

By the way, I’m Steven Sashen, host of the podcast and CEO of Xero Shoes. Our goal is to make natural movement the obvious, healthy, better choice, the way natural food currently is, and it’s a movement about doing that, which means it involves you. And all that means is like and share and review and give us a thumbs up or hit the bell on YouTube to make sure you hear about new episodes, et cetera. You know what to do. In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, please do subscribe. So we are joined today by Bart Potter. Bart, why don’t you do me a favor, tell human beings who the hell you are and why you’re here.

Bart Potter:

Hi, Steven. Thanks for having me. Yeah, first of all, I just wanted to say I’m a big fan of your shoes and I’ve been wearing them for a long time, and also, I’ve really been enjoying your podcast. Lots of useful information.

Steven Sashen:

Thank you. And one of the reasons that we’re here is that I’ve enjoyed your book, which I’m hoping, at some point, you will hold up and flash and point to get there.

Bart Potter:

I should have had a copy with me here.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, man, and I wasn’t smart enough to have a copy. In fact, I think someone may have borrowed it. We have a nice library here at the office with a whole bunch of books about barefoot running and natural movement, and things like… Obviously, what you do. But I have to check and see if it’s checked out. So let’s jump… Backing up a bit, so tell people who the hell you are and what you-

Bart Potter:

Sure thing. My name is Bart Potter and I’ve been practicing as an exercise therapist for over 20 years. Actually, before I got into exercise therapy about 25 years ago, actually, the reason I got dragged unwillingly towards this field initially at first was several years of chronic shoulder, upper, and lower back pain. So I had no choice but to try to move in a direction where I could figure out what was going on to get me back on track, and I visited experts in sports medicine, physical therapy, chiropractic, acupuncture, pain management. Just spent a crazy amount of time and money seeking out answers to get back on track, because I’d gone from someone who was relatively athletic, I played college tennis, I did lots of the things that people like to do here in Colorado, ski and hike, and all that good stuff.

And I went from being highly functional to highly dysfunctional, to the point where I couldn’t even use my shoulder very much anymore. I had to learn to write left-handed at one point.

Steven Sashen:

Wow.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, so that was initially how I got moving in the direction towards exercise therapy. Fortunately, I eventually met a mentor who was able to get me back on track with that. He was a guy who had that track record where people would come to him from all over who had been a lot of other places first, like me, and his techniques were so effective that he had that track record. He could just help one person after the next, after the next. Pretty efficiently and easily get back, move them in the right direction.

Steven Sashen:

How’d you find him to begin with, and can you mention who it is?

Bart Potter:

Yeah, just extreme luck. And for me, I guess I was a pretty complicated case. Lots of trial and error, but eventually, my mom had met this guy through a friend and she said, “Hey, I think you should meet this guy. Sounds pretty smart,” and that was it. It did take a while, it wasn’t like an overnight thing, “Bam, you’re fixed,” but he knew the techniques and he had the insights to point me in the right direction. And at first, it was just me wanting to get better and move on with my life and forget about this portion of my life, basically. But then, really, I became fascinated with how effective he was, how effective the techniques were at helping one person after the next, so pretty soon, I was like, “Hey, I want to learn how to do this and teach it to other people.”

And so, for over 20 years now, I’ve been refining and teaching the techniques I learned from my friend, Sean McCarver, and using them to help my own clients. And then, most recently, incorporating that into the book I wrote called Jiffy Body, which teaches people a 10-minute daily system where they can practice the same types of techniques and ideas that I learned from Sean.

Steven Sashen:

So just to highlight again, this is normally something we do at the end of the podcast, but I may as well do it now. So if people want to find out about the book, Jiffy Body, where do they go to do that?

Bart Potter:

Yeah, they can go to my website, it is jiffybody.com. And there’s two Fs. Yeah, yeah. There’s two Fs there, and you can find it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, it’s pretty easy to kind of Google and look up.

Steven Sashen:

And just as a quick testimonial, I mean, it is a very simple and elegant little program. And the book is very… How do I put it? It’s like a really pleasant, comfortable, easy read. It’s engaging, it’s entertaining, it’s personal, it’s really sweet. It was well done.

Bart Potter:

Thank you, appreciate it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, so backing up, the teaser that we gave inspired by you was that you don’t need to work out to get your body functioning properly, working properly. Can you say more about that?

Bart Potter:

Yeah, absolutely. I think first part of that starts with a mindset that I’ve had even before I got into all of this, and a lot of people might think, is that no pain, no gain type situation. And that does draw people towards the gym and really aggressive heavy workouts, and that could be fine. I mean, I like to work out as well for enjoyment, but the fact is it’s not a requirement to improve body function and performance. And forgive me if I’m promoting my system a little bit, but there’s very simple tactics you can learn to improve body mechanics for your whole body. Similar to your shoes. You figured out that modern shoe companies were over-engineering footwear and restricting natural movement, and that’s created like a straight jacket for our feet, where they can’t express themselves. Similarly, because of our modern environment, because we don’t tend to move and use our bodies with variety, like our ancestors did even 100 years ago, we’ve lost that natural movement, we’ve lost the ability to express normal joint range of motion, things like that.

So what can happen for people is if, for instance, you sit eight hours a day in your office, that’s at least 2,900 hours of sitting in a year with your body like I am in this couch, in a restricted, confined position. And then, when you get up and try to use your body, maybe for something more aggressively, you might encounter problems. So A, even working out aggressively in that situation could be dangerous, but B, if you can just improve body mechanics, allow for more natural movement, you’re going to feel better and just basically want to use your body more.

So the more you can use your body with variety throughout your day, and like you say, more natural movement, do a variety of activities with your body, the whole time, you’re creating your own resistance with gravity. That’s why people who work in fields or do manual labor create their own type of resistance program that builds more muscle fiber, that increases bone density, that improves joint range of motion. You can get all of these benefits just by… Some people will really resent this when they say this, but you can improve by doing your chores around the house. That can be-

Steven Sashen:

Don’t say that too loud.

Bart Potter:

Exactly, I get some grimaces about that. But that can really improve body function, muscle mass, bone density, range of motion, flexibility, all of these great things just by moving it and using it.

Steven Sashen:

I just thought of a great new product. So we need to make a broom with a 15 or 20-pound weighted handle, I think that’d be good. Or a dust pan with a five-pound dumbbell built into it or a towel for drying the dishes, like a heavy… So Elaine and I got a weighted blanket, which we really enjoy, so now we need weighted dish towels. This is a whole new business that we’re thinking of right here. Well, before I jump in, I’ve got a couple of comments just about what you said, but before we do that, since you set this up, and I know I’m putting you on the spot when I do this, but hey, live with it. So can you think of a movement thing that you could share with people now, either to help them experience anything, whether it could be how they may have some restriction that they could alleviate or just something that they could do that feels good, instead of pointing out something problematic? Anything that you want to offer to people.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, absolutely. I could do two even, if you want. I could do one for-

Steven Sashen:

All right. Well, I only asked for one, but if you’re going to throw in a bonus, I’m not going to say no.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, two for the price of one. So the first thing is… People love this one, actually, and I’m sure you’re going to be familiar with this, because you’re so knowledgeable about foot and ankle function, and all of that, but this is one I teach my clients in the book as well. So using the couch, actually, can be very useful for beneficial practice positions. So I’ll lean back here, so hopefully you can see my foot and what I’m wearing too, by the way.

Steven Sashen:

I can see the tip of your toes.

Bart Potter:

Okay, I’m wearing my Xero Shoes. If I lift my foot, there we go.

Steven Sashen:

There it is.

Bart Potter:

So what you’re going to do is, if you draw a circle really slowly with your foot… Yeah. And the slower and more perfect circle you draw in both directions, the more you’re going to activate some muscles called your peroneus and tibialis muscles, which by the way, are also very impressive words to use on a date.

Steven Sashen:

I don’t know who you date, but okay. Whatever you say.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, exactly. So you’re practicing… A, you’re practicing joint range of motion, which is beneficial. That’s not something we do during our day a lot. But B, by activating those muscles, they’re like straps on a Roman sandal that go down your lower leg and attach to the points underneath your foot, and that’s what gives leverage to create stability as you’re walking forward. So what you want as you’re walking is like a smooth tracking pattern, so you don’t want excess lateral vibration in your foot if you’re going to walk forward smoothly. And so that’s just one of the benefits those muscles provide, so yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I was just going to say what was really interesting, and I want to highlight this for people, is going as slow as you can, because then you start to… At first, you find these little glitches along the way and then they start to work themselves out, so there’s an interesting neurological thing going on there. And then, especially then, you reverse it. And then what’s fun… Wait, hold on, I got to do it. What’s entertaining… Do you recommend… I’ll ask it this way. Do you recommend people start with their dominant or non-dominant side if they’re going to do both?

Bart Potter:

The key thing is, as long as you’re practicing both, because what you mentioned there is really important, it’s self-diagnostic. Just by doing this stupidly simple practice position, you can notice where your weak point is in your range of motion. And sometimes, for people, it can be pretty dramatic. They’re like, “Whoa, that portion of the circle is not good.” And what they’ll notice, as they practice, is they can draw better circles, and that means you’re getting better lower leg, ankle, and foot function.

Steven Sashen:

The reason that I ask about dominant versus non-dominant, and you don’t have an opinion about it, nor do I at the moment, but what many people will find is, when you practice with one side, then the other side at first feels awkward, because you’ve already kind of gotten the first one in the groove, but usually improves faster than the second one. This is an idea from Feldenkrais, where it’s like, “Start with the good side and then the bad side comes along.” It’s what happened for me with my first barefoot run when I got… Or my second one, actually. But my first one, I got a blister on the ball of my left foot, so my second run, I was thinking, “Let me pay attention to the good side, the one that didn’t get a blister, and see if the, quote, ‘Bad side,’ comes along for the ride,” and it did.

It figured out, by paying attention to the good side, the bad side figured out how to change itself. And I want to emphasize, “Figured out how to change itself.” I wasn’t consciously doing anything other than paying attention to the good side. So again, doing a really slow rotation, this attention is more important than the speed or just getting around. It’s not just about-

Bart Potter:

Absolutely right.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, yeah.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, because initially, when I show that one to people, they want to do it really fast, but that’s absolutely correct. The more they focus that mindfulness part of the practice position and really drawing a slow, really good circle, then you’re really going to feel these muscles activating a lot more of these, and they’ll be like, “That’s where they are,” because you’ll feel them.

Steven Sashen:

It’s so funny you start with that, because I don’t know how it happened. I was just… I know what it was, it was one of these people do amazing things videos that I was watching when I was trying to get to sleep the other night. And it was a guy who, on a whiteboard, drew a perfect circle, freehand drew a perfect circle. So I love that we’re doing foot circles and he draws a perfect circle, and it was in a classroom and the whole class goes crazy. It’s very energy.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Okay, so you promised a bonus. Two for the price of one. What’s number two?

Bart Potter:

Absolutely, the second deals with upper body and it deals with counteracting one of the main causes of dysfunction for our bodies, and that’s sitting. As I mentioned earlier, all those hours of sitting we can do every year, myself included. And so when we’re sitting at our computers and steering wheels in our cars, and even in this couch, it’s really easy to slouch my shoulders instead of being externally rotated, I’m at my keyboard… This is an exaggeration, right? You could see my shoulders internally rotate.

Steven Sashen:

So for people who are listening, so internally rotating, the easiest way to think about that is if you outstretch your arm in front of you with your palm up and then rotate not just your arm, but rotate everything including your shoulder in. If your thumb is rotating counter… Your right thumb is rotating counterclockwise, left thumb clockwise, then really exaggerate the shoulder part of that, that’s internally rotated. And if you go the other way, your thumbs are starting to point out, so you’re rotating your right hand, clockwise, and left hand, counterclockwise. Especially if you pull your shoulders back a little, that’s going to be externally rotating your shoulder.

Bart Potter:

Yep, yep. So that’s the first part I wanted to explain. The second thing that happens when we’re sitting is these upper front muscles will tighten and shorten. So you could think of your muscles as cables that support a suspension bridge. You got your suspension bridge, let’s say the cables are tighter on one side of the bridge, that’s going to make the bridge lopsided and cause structural problems for the bridge, right? It’s not going to stand very long. And similarly, we have these muscle cables that support our body bridge, which consists of our bones and joints. So in this case, if these cables are getting tighter and tighter, because we’re always like this, hunched over our computers and in our cars, over time, these are going to shorten and the upper back are actually going to overstretch, which gets into the whole idea. Some people are like, “Well, isn’t it good to stretch everything?”

Or some people might not say that either, but what happens in this scenario is tight and short on upper front and overstretch on upper back. That’s what we’re practicing eight hours a day, 2,900 hours a year. So this is another stupidly simple position to counteract internally rotated and upper front muscles that are shortened and these are overstretched. So to describe it a little better, what you’re going to do is open-

Steven Sashen:

Wait, hold on, hold on. I just like that you made a point to talk about peroneus, but now you’re referring to the upper pec as the upper front.

Bart Potter:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

So clearly, these are two totally different dates that you’re on. One for people who think they’ll be impressed if you know muscle they don’t know about, but then-

Bart Potter:

Or someone would be like, “You’re just full of yourself, stop it. Too much.”

Steven Sashen:

So the movement is…

Bart Potter:

That’s a good point. I tried to, in the book… And sometimes I diverted from that, but I tried to make some of the ideas as simple as possible, and this was one of the upper front muscles, right?

Steven Sashen:

Upper front.

Bart Potter:

So to practice this position, what you’re going to do is you’re going to open… Like you said, open… For people who ever saw that show a long time ago, was it Happy Days? Fonzie, right? Was the thumbs out? Is that right? The thumbs are-

Steven Sashen:

Hold on, it’s a really interesting point. Yeah, when Fonzie was doing thumbs up, it wasn’t straight up, it was a little out. It was a little externally rotated.

Bart Potter:

It was a little out.

Steven Sashen:

I’d never thought about that, which is completely insane.

Bart Potter:

Yeah. So the more you turn your thumbs up and then out, so you’re kind of turning your palms directly up towards the ceiling, essentially. And then the next part of it is I’m pulling my arms straight back, so you could… During your day, let’s say you’ve been sitting for a couple hours, you could get up and do this practice position to counteract what you’ve just been practicing at your computer for two hours. And so when we’re trying to create better muscle balance, it’s really simple. All we’re trying to do, lots of times, is practice the opposite of the repetitive thing that we’ve been doing for a lot of the day. So if we’ve been this way, internally rotated shorter upper front, now we’re going to practice external rotation, stretching upper front, and actually shortening upper back. It’s the opposite.

Steven Sashen:

How do you feel about adding resistance to things like this, like using a rubber band or if a cable machine using weights in some way?

Bart Potter:

Absolutely. And so I’m definitely not against working out, I guess the only point I was trying to make earlier is that you don’t have to do it. If you improve body mechanics, you can move around and do lots of things to gain those types of benefits outside of the gym. But yeah, I like to work out, and that’s a great exercise you’re talking about to do, where you’re like… You have a cable with some weight and you’re pulling towards you and you’re squeezing essentially and tightening these upper back muscles, because these muscles up here are the counterbalance for all of your arm and shoulder movements. So every time you’re moving and using your arm, these are working to keep the shoulder stable and functional.

Steven Sashen:

It’s interesting. So I was an All-American gymnast way back when, I don’t know any gymnast who makes it out of that without bad shoulders, at least one. And when I first got diagnosed as needing a rotator cuff repaired 25 years ago, I put it off until three years ago, and I’ve had limited mobility. If I tried to put my hand behind my back, I could barely do it with my injured shoulder side, which is my right side. And then I don’t know where I got the idea, a couple of years ago, I just decided to start doing a whole bunch of chin-ups. And so I put up chin up bar… Elaine and I, we have… Our second bedroom is our TV/guest room, and then there’s a bathroom off it. So I put a chin-up bar in the doorway to the bathroom.

So obviously, I went in and out of it a dozen times a day, and every time I went in, I would do just like five chin-ups. And I really emphasized what you just said, that really working on the upper back, rather than thinking of it as a bicep exercise. And I don’t know why I thought to do this, I wasn’t thinking of it as a rehab thing. I just had the idea, “I want to do more stuff.” And what I noticed is that my upper back started getting stronger, my shoulders started moving into a different position, and I started getting more flexibility from building the strength back there, which is counterintuitive. Well, most people would think it’s counterintuitive. It makes sense, given what you just said, but it seemed odd that I was getting more flexible by getting stronger.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, that is super cool. And that speaks to just the desire and openness to try a variety of movement, too. Sometimes you could be surprised, by incorporating variety, the benefits that can create for your body. You just did it intuitively.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and to that point, I got into something about six weeks ago. I’ve owned some kettlebells for a while, I used them mostly for just doing kettlebell swings or doing single-leg deadlifts, but then I got inspired to try an actual kettlebell workout, and I’d never really done one before. And it’s a whole bunch of really unusual movement patterns that it’s not like going to the gym, by any stretch. I’m not doing bicep curls, I’m not doing tricep push downs, I’m not doing bench presses. I’m not doing any of those, quote, “Normal things.” And yet, my whole body is acting as if I have. I mean, the most interesting to me is what’s happening with my biceps. And it’s interesting, because I’m not doing any exercises with the kettlebell that involve bending and flexing my arm. In any way that’s against resistance. I mean, basically, the only time I’m bending my arm, if you’re doing…

For people who are into kettlebells, a kettlebell clean, but that’s weightless. It’s not like I’m pulling and doing resisted bicep work. Most of what’s happening is actually just trying to hold this thing, hold the kettlebell, without it flying out of your hand. And so it’s fascinating to see. I’m not doing any bench press stuff, but it’s affecting my chest. I’m not doing any… Fill in the blank. I’m not doing an exercise for that body part, and yet that body part’s being affected, or not doing the normal exercise for that body part. So the new movement pattern thing is really interesting to me lately.

Bart Potter:

And it’s fun, too, right? It feels different-

Steven Sashen:

It’s really satisfying. It’s also… Pardon me one second. It’s really satisfying, it’s also really annoying at first, because until you figure out how to do things correctly, you’re banging a giant metal ball into your forearms. But once you’ve figure out the technique, it becomes pretty effortless, which is really enjoyable.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, that sounds cool.

Steven Sashen:

When people come to see you, what are they typically coming for? How do they find you?

Bart Potter:

Clients or readers?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Both, actually.

Bart Potter:

Both? Yeah. One thing I do with my website that I’m really enjoying doing is I do a blog, I do a monthly email tip, and so my website’s definitely the resource, jiffybody.com.

Steven Sashen:

How do you think people are bumping into that? I mean, people like to think that the internet is an, “If you build it, they will come,” thing, which is not the case. So how are they finding you or what do you think they’re looking for when they find you?

Bart Potter:

Yeah, and you’re absolutely right. For me, it’s all through initially direct interaction, either working one-on-one with people, I also do public speaking with larger groups of people, I’ve worked with smaller companies working with employees who found, excuse me, the tactics are really useful for preventing repetitive use problems in the office. So yeah, no one’s just finding me out of the blue. It’s all initially through direct interaction. I help one person, they’re like, “Hey, you should talk to Bart.” Or I go talk to a group of people and people are like, “Hey, this is simple and it makes sense,” and that’s a cool thing I really like about what I teach, is it’s super simple, to the point that sometimes people learn this and they’re like, “Yeah, that’s just logical.” It’s not rocket science.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, it’s funny. I like to say humans have been wearing footwear since they’ve been human beings, and what we talk about is not rocket science or, as they said 1,000 years ago, “It’s not rock science.” So I’m trying to think. So we’ve talked about the angle a bit and lower leg, we’ve talked about the upper body. What are the other things that people come to you for that you may have some insight to share that could be useful?

Bart Potter:

Absolutely. Initially, most of my clients are body issues like aches, pain, stiffness, swelling, nerve impingement, and joint problems. That’s one part of it. And then the other part, which I really enjoy working with, is people who just want better performance. So it could be an athlete who wants to improve function while they’re playing and also to prevent injuries. And it could just be people who want to keep doing their favorite activities, so it could be someone like you, you’re a sprinter, right? So you’re motivated to do things, so you can perform at a high level. So I could have an athlete like that, or it could be a grandparent who wants to be able to play with their grandkids on the floor.

Steven Sashen:

Well, this is going to sound silly perhaps to some people, but do you treat those two different groups of people differently or are they basically the same kind of thing just with different applications?

Bart Potter:

They are. We are all the same kind of thing in one sense. There’s three main principles I teach people. One is to improve muscle balance, one is to practice and improve joint range of motion if it’s lacking, and the third is to identify and improve weak points. So someone who’s really highly functional might be further ahead, right? They might have more complete, better range of motion for all their major joints and muscle groups, but the same principles benefit everyone. But yeah, you have to tailor it to the individual.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, going back to the very beginning of our conversation and just the teaser about working out, it occurs to me that one of the problems that I see with people who do workout, whatever that looks like, whether it’s doing CrossFit or just weightlifting or even yoga, I see people who are… How do I want to put this? Either they have or they adopt bad movement patterns, because they’re just trying to get the reps in or that they just don’t even know what good form looks like. There’s subtle things. I’m going to use bench pressing as an example, where most people don’t think about… Most people, when they think about bench pressing, just think about pushing, just think about basically doing a pushup. But if you’re going to bench press really effectively, the first thing you do, and this comes back to something else we were saying, is pull your shoulders back and try to squeeze your shoulders together, because that makes your shoulders more stable, it shortens the range of motion, it makes you much stronger.

And many people, when they think about bench pressing, they imagine the bar coming up near their clavicle, and when the bar touches your chest, it should be nipple level, which seems odd, because it seems farther down. But those two little cues and then what you do with your feet, actually, is really important for bench pressing also. So there’s three little cues that, if you give people, it can make them, quote, “Instantly stronger.” And what that really means is you’re putting yourself in just a better biomechanical position. But because they don’t know that, haven’t looked at that, they have the idea that they… “Look, how hard is it to push something? I know how to push something.” So either they develop a bad pattern or they’ll do too many reps and start to get tired and just try to get that last rep out, and all hell breaks loose. Or they have some imbalance or some problematic motor pattern to begin with that just gets exacerbated by doing something that’s that kind of activity.

And people just don’t know that there’s different things. Do you find people getting resistant to the idea of… With your work, I’m going to refer to it… I’ll say it this way. It’s not accurate, but just for the fun of this part of the conversation. Do you find people have a hard time adjusting to the doing less phenomenon?

Bart Potter:

Yeah, I mean… I think there is definitely that desire, and it’s, I’m sure, more common with people who go to the gym. In that mindset, you have to work harder to improve, just work harder or hurt more. That pain being involved with it, but what you pointed out. With the upper back and how just creating a stronger back is going to make you a better bench presser is a really great solution to that. The guy I learned from actually, initially, was… He played in the NFL and he was a super heavyweight powerlifter.

Steven Sashen:

What a riot.

Bart Potter:

And unfortunately, he’s no longer living, but I remember him talking about powerlifting moves all the time. In particular, the bench press. And talking about how people neglect to train their back.

Steven Sashen:

There’s another counterintuitive weightlifting thing that I didn’t know for years, which is people who get a weightlifting belt, they think that the idea is make it really tight, and that’s somehow providing support. But the reality, just for the fun of doing this, for people who wear a weightlifting belt who don’t know, the whole point of the weightlifting belt is not to hold you in, but so that you have something to push against when you’re squatting or deadlifting, so that you’re creating a stronger core by pushing out, instead of trying to suck something in and create some support from wearing a belt. It’s really just a cue to make everything around your entire body, front and back, more solid when you’re doing something like squatting or deadlifting, because it’s something that people tend to forget. They think about the weight, they don’t think about, “What’s the most important piece that’s going to then move this?”

So weightlifting belts are… Again, people mostly use them upside down as they make it really tight, instead of pushing against it. I know I’ve said that now six times. So I love the fact that he came out of a powerlifting background, because boy, talk about a place where you need to figure out how to be the most efficient. I mean, that’s it. It’s not just strong, it’s strong in exactly the right way. Some of those guys are amazing.

Bart Potter:

Absolutely. And even things that people wouldn’t normally associate with better strength or even necessarily function. Some athletes might not do this, but if you can just train your stabilizers in your shoulder, you’re going to have a more stable ball and socket joint, which means you can drive forward better. Just like with that one with the feet, you can create a smoother tracking pattern by activating these peroneus and tibialis muscles and you can drive forward more effectively. And sometimes those are the little things that people that we’re looking, it could be an athlete that may not think on that level, “How do I create better joint stability and stabilizers?” Or it could be someone much older. Lots of times, you might think that it’s just impossible. They can’t have a better function, maybe they’re too old and they just can’t do it, but sometimes the solution can be just so simple that, once they learn it and practice it, they’re like, “Okay, this is easy.”

Steven Sashen:

You reminded me, I met these two women, they’re twins, who were in Cirque du Soleil, and they created a training program based on what they were doing with Cirque du Soleil that was all just about that upper back and just getting those shoulders back in position and working on all the stabilizer muscles, because they found, similar to what you’ve been talking about, that so many of Cirque du Soleil athletes came in and just did whatever it took to get through the move, but they didn’t have a stable structure to do it, so that’s why they were seeing really, really high injuries. And so they created this whole program to basically try to make you as bulletproof as possible for the incredibly demanding schedule and just the demands of these amazing activities that these Cirque athletes were doing.

And you would never think that these people at the top of their game are walking in, essentially, with a bad foundation to begin with. But that’s what they were seeing and then they created this whole program. I hadn’t thought about this. I met them, geez, this was 20 plus years ago. I hadn’t thought about it in quite a while.

Bart Potter:

Yeah. I found the same thing, that sometimes people are really surprised I can walk them through… It’s a really easy 10-minute system that I teach to improve body mechanics, essentially, and I can take them through roughly 17 to 20 practice positions and I can tell them what is hurt or where their injury was. They don’t have to tell me a word, I could just guide them through the system and, afterwards, I can go, “Yeah, your shoulder or your knee,” or whatever it is. Because sometimes they’re the best athletes in the world, but they might not have some of that information that could really benefit them, and it’s easy to improve.

Steven Sashen:

So give me an example of walking somebody through the program and what you see and how they respond. And of course, the magic question that I imagine people are asking is, “Can you self-diagnose this and do it on your own without you watching?”

Bart Potter:

Yeah, absolutely. So that’s the intent of the system, it’s self diagnostic. Like a 28-point inspection for a car, right? Before you race it around the track, you want to find out what the weak points are on the car, and tune it up. Similarly, with this system, people can walk through the practice positions and feel the difference. Like you were mentioning, from one side to the other, whether it was a dominant side or not. Okay, so this is one of the practice positions, another really easy one. I’m practicing rotation to activate my rotator cuff muscles that keep the shoulder stable. So this is a really simple one I’ve shown people before, it could be someone incredibly strong and they might notice they have restricted range of motion in their left shoulder. They may go, “Wow, I can’t externally rotate as well on my left side.” So already they’ve identified a weak point. They’re like, “Yeah, this is the shoulder I hurt five years ago.” It always correlates past injury to restricted range of motion.

So it’s very easy to walk through the system and go, “Okay.” Same thing with the toe circles. One ankle has restricted range of motion, that was the one I turned on a pothole however long ago. Because usually what happens when you’ve had an injury, even a minor injury, the body will compensate and gather restrict motion in that area.

Steven Sashen:

I noticed a thing that especially… I used to do a bunch of long meditation courses and I used to notice that, after a few days… My right shoulder was the one that was out of whack, but what I noticed is that most of the tension was in my upper back, on the left side, because it was trying to hold everything in place from the other side.

Bart Potter:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

And the first time I discovered that was shocking, that my left side was tighter than my right, when it was my right side that was the one that was all out of whack.

Bart Potter:

Yeah. That brings up the point, too, when you try… Say you were sitting like that for a couple of days.

Steven Sashen:

Yes.

Bart Potter:

Even that, it’s like a repetitive activity, trying to hold pushing your body to hold this position, which can be really hard. So that can be a beautiful thing, though, when you try different movements, you gain body knowledge, because you’ll notice, “This one part is not working as well as the other side. Why is that?”

Steven Sashen:

Well, that’s an interesting point you just made, and you alluded to it earlier. For whatever reason, we stop playing as we get older, we stop trying all these new things, and we lose a certain… I don’t mean flexibility in the, “Can you do the splits?” But just flexibility in the opportunity or the options that are available to us, because we haven’t played with them, we haven’t tried them, we haven’t used them in a while, and I’m intrigued by that. I don’t really even have a fully formed thought. I mean, I’m having a good time now learning how to do kettlebell things, sprinting a horse is a whole new game.

I got back into… There’s an archery range down the street, I went and did some target shooting, which I hadn’t done since I was, oh, my God, I don’t know, 12 or something. And just learning all these new things. I always find it really entertaining, but I also know that, even with the things that I’m doing, there’s probably a giant list of movement patterns that I’m unaware that I’m unaware of. That I haven’t done and I don’t even know that they are possibilities. And I keep thinking of… Your program opens up people to some ideas of some of those movement patterns, but I keep thinking, A, what does it take to get people to discover these and be able to use them and enjoy them? And it’s something I asked somebody a while ago. Imagine if, to graduate high school, you had to be able to do a round off back handspring or a cartwheel, or something that’s not a normal movement pattern, something…

And maybe there’s 10 different things that you could pick, but you have to demonstrate some proficiency in learning some new and unusual movement to graduate high school. So I think about what happens as we grow up, what we are presented with and aren’t presented with, and then, as we get older, how we tend to get more limited and what to do about that.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s our modern lifestyle, too, in a way is really what starts to close us in, because it’s so… We don’t have to move for survival, so the more we sit and… Hey, this couch is great, but we spend a lot of our life sedentary and we don’t have to have variety of movement for survival, and the way it goes is, generally, the less you use variety of movement in joint range of motion, the more likely you are to lose joint range of motion. And when you lose joint range of motion, you’re more likely to have body issues like aches, pain, stiffness, swelling, nerve impingement, and joint problems. So the big problem that happens for us, even if someone suddenly decides, “Hey, I want to go do all these fun things,” they might’ve created a challenging situation with their body to be able to get out and do those things without having problems.

Steven Sashen:

Well, this is the fundamental problem, is that our brain’s idea of what our body is and can do is completely different than reality, especially as we get older. I mean, in my head, I’m still basically 25 to 32, somewhere in that range. And then I go work out or do the kettlebell thing, or whatever it is I’m doing, and find out that, no, I’m pretty solidly 58.

Bart Potter:

I was going to say, what’s cool is you’re pushing yourself or you’re pointing yourself in a direction where you’re challenging your body and you’re still doing that variety of movement and it’s really beneficial, and you might bump up against the wall here and there, but it’s super beneficial.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I have a thing. I used to have a note that I wrote on my wall that said, “Distrust symmetry.” And of course, the two words were in different fonts. I try to be hyper aware of where things get into patterns, where things get stuck or in a loop, so I noticed years ago how I put on my pants, whichever leg I used first, I don’t even remember anymore. For a while ago, I noticed which way I crossed my arms and I started practicing crossing them the other way, and I realized just now I don’t remember which one is my preferred one. And when I’m sitting, I’m constantly changing that. A lot of people, if they’re watching me changing which way I press my arms, try it, because most people can’t do it. I’m not trying to show off or anything, it’s just that we don’t do it.

I play with different ways of… I sit on the ground a lot and I play with different ways of getting up off the ground, just because I just notice, for whatever reason, when something gets too familiar… I do this with thinking as well, but with body stuff in particular, it just gets too familiar or I just get curious at some point for reasons that I don’t understand, and the learning new things is both fascinating and annoying, because we know that, when you’re going to go to learn a new thing, you’re going to be uncoordinated and feel like a moron, and we don’t like doing that, but that’s just the effect of trying to lay down new neural pathways. But it’s like, if you can get through that initial awkward phase, then it’s super fun, and I’ve been thinking about…

I can’t remember what I was thinking lately, just a handful of activities that I imagine wanting to try that are new movement patterns. And this is going to sound crazy and a lot of people… There’s some people who aren’t going to like this at all, but I’m going to say it. I’ve been totally fascinated with the idea of learning how to fire a sniper rifle, which is the opposite of a lot of moving. It’s trying to get as still as possible. I’m not looking to shoot anything or anyone, but the idea… It’s such an amazing practice. Whatever control it takes to do that, or opening up and relaxing that it takes to do that, to shoot a target that’s a mile away, that strikes me as a really interesting… It’s like the exact opposite of learning to tap dance or swing kettlebells, or whatever it is.

But just again, I get really interested in some new thing that seems completely out of whack. Maybe I got the idea after watching American Sniper, the sitting there for hours and hours and hours just waiting and trying to be alert. That does not seem at all interesting, but the idea of mastering something that precise, I mean, that’s really what that’s all about. And I guess… I just realized as I was saying this, my brain is not precise, I keep piles of things everywhere, I’m not well-organized, but all the things I like to do physically, typically, are very precise. Sprinting, very precise. Archery, target shooting, even weightlifting, very precise. So I think it’s an interesting dichotomy, that my brain does one thing, my body likes something completely different.

Bart Potter:

Right, right. Well, and the good thing is you have this motivation, you enjoy these activities, and that’s pushing you out there to use your body, essentially. That’s a key ingredient, I find, with people who are successful, who I’m teaching the system to create better body mechanics is, initially… Let’s say they just have aches and pains and they want to get rid of them, right? And they do, and they’re able to feel better. Well, that’s great, but that’s not enough motivation to keep practicing and improving body mechanics or get out there and use their body, and that’s what the key thing is long-term for dramatically better body function, is to work a little bit every day on your body mechanics, but then get out there and do fun activities like you’re doing, essentially. And that’s a really good formula for success.

Steven Sashen:

What’s been really satisfying with Xero Shoes is, of course, everything we’re saying is… What I say, applies, “Feet first,” is actually getting your body to move and feeling things and getting all those new movement patterns. And we hear over and over and over from people who, once they do that, start just getting… Not inherently, that’s not the word I’m looking for. Intrinsically motivated to just do something else. My favorite version of this actually was not even from a Xero Shoes person, but there’s a doctor in Brazil named Isabel Sacco who put minimalist footwear on a bunch of elderly women and just said, “Wear these and let’s see what happens,” basically. And what she found… One thing was their knee osteoarthritis was either eliminated or greatly improved, but a bunch of these women who had had mobility issues up until that point, who then suddenly started getting more mobility after they started using their feet, some of them got interested in running 5K races, some of them got interested…

I mean, they suddenly had this new idea, this new sense of possibility to do new things just because they got their feet moving more, which is just one of my favorites.

Bart Potter:

Yeah, that’s the perfect recipe, really. Your shoe helps improve natural movement, so then people are feeling better because they are using movement more, and then they’re like, “I want to do something fun,” and then keep doing a greater variety of movement and it just creates a ball rolling downhill kind of thing.

Steven Sashen:

Well, or whatever the effortless version of a ball rolling uphill would be. We’ll have to figure out… We have to find the right metaphor for that.

Bart Potter:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Well, so Bart, is there anything else that you want to share with bipeds about just things to pay attention to or anything about what you’re doing before we pitch you again and tell people where to find out more?

Bart Potter:

Yeah. The ideas… Just this, that the body is really the genius, right? Our bodies are absolutely amazing in what we do, and to point them in the right direction doesn’t really have to be that complicated. Sometimes the simplest solutions can be the most effective, just like you were saying with your footwear. Allow the foot to do what it wants to do. Similarly, with what I teach people, it can be really simple and easy to practice this stuff. The key thing is just that consistency. If you have the motivation, the reason why, and you’re willing to just practice a little bit every day… And what I teach people is a total non-workout. You could do it in the office or at home, you could practice in your pajamas if you want to. It could be totally easy, but you can get dramatically better body function and benefit throughout your lifetime. It doesn’t have to be hard or complicated.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, and the consistency is a really interesting piece and one of the challenges, because we do like variety. I mean, as I’m doing this kettlebell thing, I’m thinking… I’m continually reminded of the first time I did a more intensive weightlifting program, it’s when I was in high school, when I was a gymnast. The first month, which is getting used to the movements, the second month was improving, and it was the third month where I actually started seeing the real benefits. I have no idea if it’s that same three-month schedule now that I’m three times that age, or more than that, but suffice to say, I think people, they often expect certain kinds of changes more quickly than bodies and minds are actually able to change, and getting over that little hump until you start to really…

When things really start to work well, things improve exponentially, but it takes… I’m trying to think of a good analogy for this. It takes a little while for things to ramp up, but then the more they do, the more they do. So it does get a little exponential at a certain point, and it plateaus. But suffice to say, the consistency, I think, is something that I want to emphasize, because many people… And I just feel that in myself, that sometimes it’s really hard after the six to eight-week mark, I can feel my brain going, “I wonder if there’s some other thing that I could…”

Bart Potter:

Yeah, well, and that makes sense. I’ve seen that with lots of people. And like I say, sometimes people just come to me for pain issues, and once they get better, then they’re like, “I’m fixed, I don’t have to practice anything anymore.”

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Bart Potter:

“It’s gone, it’s gone. I’m good, I’m all good.”

Steven Sashen:

Yeah, and that goes back to what you’re saying about the lifestyle we have now, where we’re not engaging in all these different movements all the time. For good reasons. And that’s the other point. I made this argument against somebody who was all about natural movement things and was trying to… Created a program that was supposed to be more about the things that we did 100 or 1,000 or however many years ago. And I said, “It’s not the same as going out for 20 minutes and doing pull-ups on a tree as it is walking down to the river and bringing back bricks or rocks that you’re going to use to build a home just for hours and hours and hours for days and days and days.” We just literally can’t really simulate the way these things originally worked, because we’re just not living in that world anymore, so we are doing kind of the best we can. Of course, that goes back to the consistency point.

We used to do this stuff all day every day, because it’s what we needed to live, and now I hope people can find a thing where they recognize the value of it and keep doing that all day every day. Not all day, but every day, as if it was something you needed to do to live. But mostly now, it has to be motivated by enjoyment, because it’s not motivated by necessity.

Bart Potter:

Yeah. And those are the people I’m seeing who learn this Jiffy Body system who want to keep going. Generally, they’ll feel better really quickly, just by going through it even one or two times. And as long as there’s a payoff consistently, then that creates that motivation to keep going. Those are the people that have success and just use it for years, but there definitely has to be a payoff. Either it gets you out, so you can do what you love to do, or you feel better right away. You notice something that’s working pretty quickly.

Steven Sashen:

That’s great. Well, Bart, thank you so much for all of this. So once again, here, I’ll just do it for people who want to find you, jiffybody.com, J-I-F-F-Y-B-O-D-Y.com. Is there anywhere else that people should look for you or anything you’re doing?

Bart Potter:

That’s it, primarily. That’s where I focus on. I mean, I have a Facebook business page with the same name, but generally, I put out free information through the website. If someone wants to email me, bart@jiffybody.com, I’ll send them a free practice plan, so they can try some of this stuff out. Yeah, I have one for… It’s called Sitting Break Better Posture Practice, and it just will teach you four practice positions you can use that you could use at the office, or wherever, to create that better muscle balance, practice a little joint range of motion, and you’ll feel better right away after you’ve been sitting for a long time.

Steven Sashen:

That’s great. You surprised me with something I didn’t know you had. Well, so I hope people do take advantage of that and drop Bart an email and go to his website. Bart, once again, thank you so much. Not only for this, but also your support over the years. For everybody else, if you haven’t go over to… If you want to find out more about what we’re doing here with the podcast, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, and that’s where you can find previous episodes and all the different ways to interact with the content, all the different places that we’re posting. You can leave reviews, you can do all those things you know how to do. Again, like and thumbs up and hit the bell on YouTube, and like I said, leave reviews, et cetera. If you have any questions for me or any recommendations, anyone you think that should be on the show, or anyone who you think vehemently disagrees with me who should be on the show, that’d be fun, drop me an email at move@jointhemovementmovement.com. And most importantly, as always, go out, have fun, and live life feet first.

Bart Potter:

Thanks.

The Weird “Mental” Side of Fitness and Exercise

marketdomination — Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:00:50 +0000

Brian Keane is a three-time best-selling author with The Fitness Mindset, Rewire Your Mindset and The Keane Edge: Mastering the Mindset for Real Lasting Fat Loss.

Over the past ten years, Brian has become one of the most recognised faces in the Irish health and fitness industry. He has spoken at major wellness events such as Wellfest Ireland and Mefit Dubai, was a Keynote speaker at Google HQ for their 2018 wellness event and has done corporate wellness talks for Allianz Partners, SAP and Acorn Insurance.

On top of running his own highly successful business, Brian has also completed some of the worlds most gruelling endurance challenges, such as six back to back marathons through the Sahara desert, a 230km through the Arctic and multiple ultra-marathons, including a 100 mile ultra-marathon in the desert in Nevada.

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Brian Keane about the mental side of fitness and exercise.

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– How transitioning to more holistic and mentally challenging fitness pursuits leads to personal growth and fulfillment.

– Why bodybuilding competitions are difficult and can lead to struggles with disordered eating habits.

– How setting incremental targets and following curiosity allows you to continually push boundaries in fitness.

– Why your fitness goals should be aligned with your personal values.

– How people should take a mindful approach to making decisions that nourish their personal growth and wellness.

Connect with Brian:

Guest Contact Info

Instagram
@brian_keane_fitness

Facebook
facebook.com/briankeanefitness

Links Mentioned:
briankeanefitness.com

Connect with Steven:

Website