Discover how an aerospace engineer turned ultra runner is helping athletes unlock their full potential by optimizing running techniques for peak performance and injury prevention.
In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Samuel Stow, an accomplished ultra runner with over two decades of endurance racing experience, who has carved a niche for himself in the optimization of running techniques. With a unique blend of aerospace engineering and biomechanics expertise, Samuel has effectively enhanced his own performance and that of his clients by integrating Chi running principles since 2009. He advocates for the utilization of the posterior chain, emphasizing the importance of proper body alignment, posture, and core activation, not only to boost performance but also for long-term health and injury prevention. A certified personal trainer, Samuel underscores the role of strength training in developing muscle awareness and biomechanical efficiency, making him a sought-after expert in optimizing running mechanics.
Key Takeaways:
→ Proper form and biomechanics are essential for efficient barefoot running.
→ Activating key muscles through proper posture can enhance running efficiency and prevent injury.
→ Maintaining correct posture and core engagement is crucial for running efficiently and maintaining overall health.
→ Activating the gluteus medius muscle is key for maintaining hip level and preventing movement inefficiencies.
→ An efficient leg swing with correct knee bending can significantly enhance running performance.
Samuel Stow is the owner and founder of Pop! Running and the movement expert behind The Functional Step, a powerful technique designed to improve biomechanics, efficiency, and reduce injury risk through a more conscious, connected approach to walking and running. As a world-record holding ultramarathoner and author of ‘Pop! Running: Engineering Flow State’, Sam combines movement education, breathwork, and mindfulness to help people find ease and efficiency in their movement patterns.
What makes Sam’s approach unique is his focus on the integration of physical awareness, mental presence, and mindful movement. Through Pop! Running, he and his team have helped thousands of athletes globally achieve their goals, from beginners to international-level runners. His innovative courses and programs help athletes move better, breathe better, and think better – creating sustainable, enjoyable movement practices that enhance both performance and wellbeing.
Sam’s method has helped thousands of people transform their relationship with movement, from professional athletes to seniors rediscovering the joy of pain-free walking. His upcoming book ‘Pop! Running: Engineering Flow State’ explores the powerful connection between movement, breathing, and mindset, offering readers a comprehensive approach to achieving flow in their running practice.
Connect With Samuel:
Connect with Steven:
Website
Xero Shoes
X
Instagram
Facebook
Episode Transcript
Steven Sashen
You know, getting stronger is something we pretty much all want to do, whether we’re running or just in our daily life. But what if there’s something you need to do before you go to the gym, before you try to get strong that if you don’t do, could, well, make all that frankly a waste of time or worse? We’re going to find out about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, typically starting feet first. You know, those things at the bottom of your legs. And. And here on the podcast, we break down the mythology, the propaganda. Sometimes they’re flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, do yoga, CrossFit play. I mean, whatever you’d like to do and to do it enjoyably and effectively and efficiently. Wait, did I say enjoyably? Trick question. I always say that one first. Because, look, if you’re not enjoying it, you’re not going to keep it up anyway. So you may as well find something you like. And we’re going to help you try and do that today. I am Steven Sashen, co founder and chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes, and we call this the Movement Movement. Because we, including you, no big deal. I’ll tell you how a second. We are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do, not getting in the way and causing problems. So how do we do that? Well, it’s really simple. If you want, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com and you’ll find all the previous episodes, the ways you can find us on social. You can get the podcast wherever you’re currently getting it or anywhere else and basically, you know, give us a review, give us a thumbs up, give us five stars, give us a like or, you know, hit the bell icon on YouTube. You know the drill. If you want to be part of the Trib, just subscribe. That’s what gets the word out. So that all said, let’s get started. Samuel Snow. God, I can’t even talk. Samuel Stowe. This is because I have two friends who are sss other than me. We’re both sss, but they’re both snows. And so it was in my brain. Samuel, welcome. Tell people who you are and what you’re doing here.
Samuel Stow
Hi. Thanks, Steve. I’m excited to be here. I’ve been a long time follower of you. And yeah, I’m Sam. I am a runner Ultra Runner in particular. And my passion is helping people to move well. And the reason I’m here is I really want to help spread the word and the message that we can learn to move better and that that should be our priority before we do anything else.
Steven Sashen
And from your accent, people can obviously tell you’re from Texas. Did I get Texas right?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s Australia, it’s near France.
Steven Sashen
On a globe. On a globe it is. I actually had to say that to someone. I was in California for the first time. I’m in an elevator with a woman from California and she said, where are you from? I said, I’m from Washington D.C. and she said, isn’t that New York? And I said on a globe. So, so, so, so first of all, let’s back up to the ultra runner thing since that is the opposite of my life. I mean, I run the 100 meters outdoor, 60 meters indoor. So were you always an ultra kind of guy or how’d you get into ultra?
Samuel Stow
It’s been a long journey. I’ve been doing.
Steven Sashen
Hold on, pun intended.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah. You get a lot of puns with running. It’s quite funny. Yeah. I’ve been doing endurance racing of various forms for over 20 years and I think that the trip, the switch to ultra running happened when my first kid was born and when he was six months old started crawling. I realized didn’t have the time to cycle and do all the other training that I was doing. So I decided to just focus on running because it was a bit more time efficient.
Steven Sashen
I’m so glad you didn’t say what was in my head, which was once my kid was born, I was trying to figure out how could I get as far away as fast as humanly possible. So it’s, it’s actually, it’s like an old Ray Romano joke about I have three kids. So it’s good to be here, it’s good to be anywhere because I have three kids. How old’s your child now?
Samuel Stow
So I have three, my oldest is nine and a seven year old and a four year old.
Steven Sashen
And so the running stuck, even though maybe you have a bit more time. And then how did you. Then where was the process of starting to investigate how running works, for lack of a better term, and then putting together what you’re doing to teach people, which we will talk about in a moment. But I’m just curious how people get to where they got.
Samuel Stow
I guess it started at the beginning, you know, when I was at university doing triathlon. I actually Did a thesis in my final year. I did aerospace engineering, and I studied the biomechanics of cycling and modeling track performance on a bike. And so I always had this kind of analytical brain when it comes to sport. And, yeah, when I. It didn’t click initially with running. It took me about four years. So 2009, I found Chi running. You’ve probably heard of that, right?
Steven Sashen
Absolutely. Danny. Danny Dreyer and his wife Catherine. And my wife and I go back before Xero shoes and back before G running.
Samuel Stow
Yeah. Wow. Awesome. Yeah. And I got a lot out of chi running, and it made me a lot faster. And so I basically stuck with that until about 2017. And then that’s when I started doing ultra running, and I started to get really tired hips, in particular, my hip flexors. And I was like, I haven’t figured this out yet. You know? And then sort of a little bit back before that, when I read Born to Run, which I ran 2013, I read it and I started doing barefoot running. I got minimal shoes, I got some ultras, you know, the. The flat shoes. Um, and that sort of stuck with me just like on and off for a while. And they’re 2018, I really went nuts with barefoot running. And I found Keith Bateman, who I know, you know, and started doing his stuff. And he. He kind of really helped me by looking at me and saying, no, you’re not doing what. What you should be doing. And that’s when I kind of went, oh, okay. So it took me a little bit. You know, 2019 was when it finally clicked.
Steven Sashen
Well, it’s interesting you say that, because one of the things that I’ve noticed is that human beings in general have, well, two things working against them. One, mediocre proprioceptive skills, mediocre skills at knowing where their body is, what they’re actually doing. And the other is we’re kind of wired to get into a movement pattern and then habituate to it and stick with it. So you put those two things together, and when someone is trying to switch from the form that you adopt when you have a. Almost any shoe, frankly, but especially a big, thick, you know, padded normal shoe or even a flat shoe that still has a bunch of padding, people often don’t know what they’re doing or think they know what they’re doing and are doing something very different. I’ve had people send me videos where they swear to me they’re not over striding and heel striking. And then I show them on the video that they sent me of them and I show that their foot is landing way in front of their center of mass, way in front of their knee. And I’ve literally had people say to me while looking at the video that they sent to me of them say, yeah, but I don’t do that. It’s like it’s you, you sent the video. So do you remember, do you remember what Keith noticed that then kind of changed things for you?
Samuel Stow
Well, he has a very specific way of looking at people. And you know, I think it’s primarily around like your, your knee, the timing of the movements of your knees and respect to like, you can see whether someone’s actually getting a good hip extension or whether they’re kind of swinging their legs, you know, and that’s the sort of like key distinction between whether you’re using the front of your body to move you forward or you’re using the back of your body.
Steven Sashen
Do you know, this is, it’s so interesting. People don’t, unless you are a high performance athlete, people don’t really think about what we refer to as front side mechanics and backside mechanics. You know, what’s happening in front of your body, what’s happening behind your body. And even then I’ve noticed it’s often misunderstood because people think that like I was literally talking about this this morning as I was racing someone in our warehouse. We did a track workout in the warehouse and I was commenting how. Well, it’s not as impressive as it sounds. We’re literally just running on the rather dirty floor. Not dirty dirty, but dusty floor. And so when we actually decided to race, I kind of slipped out of the, on my first step because I had so much dust on the bottom of my shoes. Regardless, I was saying, you know what people don’t understand when they think about frontside mechanics. Like, you go to a high school track meet and you hear the parents yelling to the sprinter, kids, get your knees up. It’s like, whoa, whoa. The only way you get your knees up is what’s happening from the backside mechanics. Makes the knees go where you think they should go. And if you’re yelling these up, it’s already too late. They’re not doing that. So people don’t understand that division typically. And I guess we’re going to be talking about that and what the important thing is to play with that. So for you, it’s interesting you came to this basically. I mean, there was a bit of a, hey, this doesn’t feel great. But it sounds like more from the how do I optimize performance standpoint than The. I’ve got an injury or I’ve got a. Whatever. It’s like, what can I do better?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s just the way I work is I’ve always wanted to be optimal, you know, and because I come from. I started in multi sport and, you know, like, nobody knows how to swim. And just off the bat, you know. Yeah, you throw someone in a pool, they’re gonna drown unless you give them a lesson. Do you know what I mean? And so, you know, as a triathlete and a multi sport athlete, I had to learn technique for swimming. And then, you know, with cycling, there are techniques to it to a degree. And then obviously I, I also did kayaking and I had to learn how to kayak well. And, and obviously. So then I also had the chi running. I was like, oh, there’s a way of running. And I was fascinated when I read Born to Run about the whole barefoot thing. And I. Yeah, after a while, obviously it took a while, but I realized that a lot of people can run barefoot but still run poorly from an efficiency perspective. And so.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, yeah, no, it is interesting. I mean, I’ve similarly talked to people who. Well, I don’t think I’m throwing anyone under the bus because I’m not mentioning any names, but they think of themselves as accomplished barefoot runners. But what they’ve figured out how to do is run barefoot without having problems per se, but certainly not effective or efficiently. Like, I’ve seen people, you know, reach their foot way out in front of them and kind of catch the ground and pull it underneath them so they’re not putting too much force on their feet, for example, but they are still not. I mean, it’s like Groucho marks walking fast rather than running. And. And they’re the ones who will proudly talk about all the half marathons they’ve completed and say they’re, you know, excellent barefoot runners. And when anyone who understands proper biomechanics tries to say something, you know, that’s what they’ll fall back on and get very upset when you accuse them of not being as. Or actually, it’s funny, they. They seem to be more attached to I’m doing it fine than learning how to do it better, which is again, a very human thing. We think that we’re, we’re all doing great. We don’t like, you know, anyone tell us, telling us we’re. We could be better. So which brings us to you figured this thing, you started putting all these things together for yourself and then you started teaching. How did how did that evolve? And then let’s jump into, you know, what do you want to talk about for letting people know what I teased at the beginning about if you’re trying to get stronger and so we can talk about what needs to get stronger and then the how part and, or in whatever order you prefer the how and what people are doing out of whack or out of order to make that effect efficient and effective.
Samuel Stow
So what’s the first part of your question?
Steven Sashen
Sorry, I don’t know. I got lost by the middle of it. If I can’t follow it, I don’t expect anyone else to. So you started, so, so when did you, after you kind of figured this out, what was the transition for you just to decide I want to start teaching this because that in and of itself, you know, is a little unusual for most human beings to do.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, that’s true. I, I’m a sharer. Like I really, that’s what I like to do. I don’t keep things to myself. I like to be able to share, share what I learn. And I was living in Silicon Valley, in Mountain View at the time when I was doing all of this. And I had a really good coach, Megan Roach, who’s quite well known in the ultra running community. And I also worked at Google. And so basically I was in a very good place because one of the things at Google is there’s obviously thousands of people, you know, and there’s quite a big running community and there’s also a big, there’s gyms all over the place and they had this program called Googler to Googler. And so basically you, any Googler can teach any other Googler anything they want as long as there’s someone that’s interested to do it. So I basically went to the G Fit people and said I want to teach running. And they’re like, cool. So I basically just put up some flyers and started doing it because it’s very not common to even start thinking about how you run. You know, more often than not, if you speak to someone about have you thought about how you run? They’re like, what are you talking about? You know?
Steven Sashen
Yeah, no, it really is amazing. People do think that while you just run, it is so funny that for almost every other activity, including the ones you already mentioned, people know there’s a way to do it well or better that they probably don’t know. But for running, since we kind of all grew up doing it in some way, even though, you know, not everyone was the fastest or the handle the Longest runs or whatever. Um, it’s kind of like everyone thinks they can write because they had to, you know, write essays in school or book reports, like. No, no, very different thing. So you started. So you’re. You were teaching the Google peeps and I imagine, you know, I mean, people in that world are early adopters to begin with, so I, I can see how that would have.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, your shoes were very popular there. I saw a lot of people wearing Prios in the gym and different things like that.
Steven Sashen
So, man, I got to somehow take advantage of that. Yeah. So, and so talk to me then about, since we teased this at the beginning, where strength comes into what you were teaching. I mean, if you want to give like the highlights of what you’re teaching. But since we teased it with strength at some point. Let’s land on that one.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, well, it took a while. You know, I came to it as a runner. I had done a personal training certification before I left the Australia for the us but that was a previous career before I started doing software engineering. So. And, but then I didn’t really get detailed into sort of like physiology and anatomy and like biomechanics from a muscular perspective until I came back to Australia. But I understood like how we were supposed to move sort of from a biomechanical perspective. I just didn’t have the depth of knowledge but that I currently have with muscles and so on. So I didn’t necessarily have that perspective then, but I was still going, you know, in similar way to like chi running. Okay, this is how you’re going to hold yourself. This is where you’re focusing your effort. Try and feel your bum, basically your glutes and all that. Yeah, I think. I’m not sure if I answered the question there.
Steven Sashen
No, that’s good. And so I’m. I’m assuming. Actually, I do know this, but I’ll say that I’m assuming you discovered something that I’ve seen often, which is for whatever reason, and there’s debates about this, I have seen so many people who, Whose glutes just don’t work, they can’t. If you ask them to flex their glutes, there, there’s nothing happening. I mean, I don’t know about you, but what I’ve done, when I, when I do this in the appropriate setting, or some might say the inappropriate setting, I will do one of two things. I’ll like, you know, poke my finger in someone’s glute and say squeeze until that’s, you know, getting pushed out, which they can’t do. And that’ll say, just to give you a hint, you know, do that to me and see what you feel. And they’re like, oh, that’s. Oh, that’s very different. So. So what’s your technique for having people recognize that their glutes are not doing what they’re supposed to do?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, so this was the last thing to twig for me. You know, I was able to teach people all the mechanics and everything, but as I said, it didn’t. It wasn’t until I went real deeper into the sort of musculature and so on that I realized how. How little glute function a lot of people have. And so. But now I have a process to really, you know, fix that. So one of the things that I start with is I have, like, the glute activation program. And I actually taught my dad recently. He’s 71, and he. I know this is an interesting story, actually. So he has very poor, or has had historically very poor posture and like, no glute awareness. And so. But he’s a sailor, and he had a boat, and he was trying to push this boat, which is a yacht, so it’s quite heavy, but it was on land. And. And as he was trying to push it, he tore his calf muscle because he was trying to push from his calves. And so after that happened, because he loves hiking, he’s a very active person, I said, okay, we’ve got to fix you. You’re. You can’t be running around trying to push through your calf all the time. And he. Yeah, when I started testing him with squats and things, he’s like, I cannot feel anything. So that’s how I came up with the program to help him activate through his bum. And then we. We actually took. We did that and didn’t actually take that long, surprisingly, only took about a week. And then after that, he was able to do the other exercises, and now he can walk with a lot more power and he’s got much better posture. And I have the videos on my website.
Steven Sashen
I love it. Well, so if people are listening slash watching to this, and they want to check and see if they’re actually using or activating their glutes, what would you recommend they try to find that out?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, so I actually talk about this. I’ve got an ebook, and there’s a free version, and then there’s a longer version, which is only $5 on my website. But basically there’s a test in there, and it’s a glute activation pattern. First well, actually, probably the simpler version is, let’s say you’re just standing up, you know, straight, clench your bum cheeks. Right. Everyone mostly can do that. Right. Everyone can clench their bum. Right. So that’s great. Now the next test is, can you lift one leg off the ground slightly and clench just one bum? And the one. The thing that I find often is most a lot of people can’t.
Steven Sashen
Wait, which one? So if you’re lifting your left foot.
Samuel Stow
One that’s on the ground.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, one that’s on the ground. You’re squeezing that one. Got it?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s called glute dissociation. Like left. Right. I’m sure you can do, you know, but that’s a really basic one. And then, yeah, obviously there’s so many different movement tests you can do, but, yeah, I’ve seen. I’ve heard people, for example, they’re trying to do, for example, you know how. I don’t know if you’ve seen them, but there’s this glute guy, and he’s got all the girls doing these hip thrusts with barbell on their Breckenriers. Probably. Yeah. And. And so one of my clients says she was doing a barbell hip thrust and she was getting, like, pain in her calves. And I’m like, ah, okay. Yeah, because you’re not even using your glutes. It’s like you’re trying to push the barbell up through your calves because your glutes don’t work. You know, so it’s really interesting. That’s what I’m kind of talking about is, like, these dysfunctions that people are not necessarily 100% aware of, that we need to sort of re. Resolve before you can actually do effective exercises.
Steven Sashen
All right, we’re going to. We’re going to drill into that in a little bit, but I want to, before we get there, so talk just about, you know, because we mentioned frontside backside mechanics. So let’s loop that back in to the relevance for being able to use your glutes properly and running.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, I. I think that a big piece that I’m always illustrating when I talk to people I’m helping with the running perspective, is that distance runners are not sprinters, you know, and so there’s a very big distinction between, like, being efficient over a long distance and being fast and powerful. And I think because, you know, so many people seem to look at sprinters and think that’s the model of efficient running form, but then, you know, because we have very little posterior chain awareness and core awareness as well. Generally, then the thing that we can most easily do is the front. Right. So we can put our arms up, we can put our knees up, and you can, we can do everything that, that looks like that’s what the sprinters do, but we kind of neglect the back. But to be honest, as a distance runner, you know, I have learned from experience of running hundreds of kilometers, you know, in one go, that the, the most efficient way to run any further than say, a couple of kilometers is not using the front, it’s using the back. Because, and I talk about this in my books, basically, we have two advantages. One is gravity, because if you land and then you’re pushing from your bum, you actually get an elastic recoil effect. So you, you land, it loads up the spring and then you push from the posterior which recoils. So you get a lot more efficiency than if you’re just lifting your feet, you know, because then you’re just removing the spring aspect.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, this is one of those things that I see in my neighborhood. There’s a lot of good runners, but there’s a variation on that where they’re wearing big, thick high heeled shoes and they, even with the high heeled shoes, they’re not, their heel is not coming near the ground. And so they’re not utilizing their Achilles, the biggest spring, literal spring that we’ve got, let alone, you know, what they could get from loading and unloading the glutes. It’s really. And of course I’m not going to stop and tell them that I don’t want to get punched while I’m walking. So again, so let’s, let’s again dive into that a little more. So can you, what more can you say? Just about, oh boy, what someone’s going to look for in their own body or look for if they’re watching a video of themselves to see if they are doing what you just described or not.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, so I don’t typically look at this in the way, you know, you see a lot of people offering like form analysis. Right. Running form analysis. And, and it can be helpful. But I personally prefer to talk to people about how they’re feeling and what they’re feeling in their body because that’s more sustainable, you know, like coming up with corrections and trying to do a correction on yourself is much harder than understanding what it’s supposed to feel like and then just maintaining that feeling. And. Yeah, so generally, you know, I start with postural awareness, so improving your posture generally. So understanding how to hold yourself in a straight Posture, usually using a wall is a really great way to do it, you know, so having your shoulders open, your head up, you’re not looking up like this or down like this. You keep your head straight and then you tuck your ribs down a little bit, you know, because some people hyperextend through their back. So the ribs down a little bit and then you tense your belly muscles and then you kind of that level with your hips and you should feel your bum turning on and then that’s your ideal kind of like neutral posture, you know. And that can feel quite foreign to a lot of people because they’re not used to holding themselves in that position. And so you need to find that position in order to be able to use that when you’re running. So that’s my step one, you know.
Steven Sashen
And what are the other feeling, tone things that you’re asking people to look for or that you’re listening for when they describe what they’re, what they’re doing or not doing?
Samuel Stow
Well, yeah. Now when I talk to a runner and finding out like what problems they’re having, I’m like, well, which muscles get the sorest? You know, when you do hard runs, you know, whether it’s a race or a long run or an effort or workout, and usually it points to what the thing that they’re doing wrong is, you know, like if they get sore lower back and sore hamstrings, it means that their, their core isn’t working, you know, and if they get sore cars or sore lower legs, it means they’re overusing their calf muscles and they’re doing what you said, where their heels not touching the ground and there’s, you know, usually there’s, there’s an indicator. It’s like, okay, I mean, if their quads are getting sore, it’s more often than not they’re over striding, you know, so you kind of go, okay, well, based on what you just told me, this is what we’re going to focus on. But at the same time, it always comes back to having good posture, getting your glutes on, and actually getting that efficient movement pattern, like wired in and starting at a really low level, like really low intensity baseline, just so you can understand it, because it’s like, you know, you don’t start driving in a race car. You know, you want to start in something very controlled and sustainable. So you want to start slow and then build up once you become competent.
Steven Sashen
So you’re, you’re now describing my undergraduate research at Duke on cognitive aspects of motor skill acquisition. So I made this whole map and think about trying to learn to tap dance, because that’s what I studied. And you know, when you first try some really simple thing like a shuffle, literally you’re kind of kicking your foot out. You. You scrap. Well, you tap your foot on the ground as it moves out, you tap it on the way back. It sounds really simple. And then you try and do it like 30 times in a row and. And you’ll have no rhythm and you’ll miss half of them. It’s like you’re going to feel like a moron because it seems so simple. So then you slow it down until it’s just like, like super slow motion. And over time, as your brain starts to understand that movement pattern, it becomes more ingrained until it’s like super fast. And you can’t even. You can’t not do it right because it’s just, it’s way back in your brain. So this is a brilliant thing. And most people, they’ll want to just go out and do it too much to try it instead of getting the feeling first slow and small and then building up, look, this is a thing even, especially as a sprinter, you can work on form things, but once you’re going full speed, you can’t think about any of that. That’s like, it’s turned off anything that you have control over and so actually have a whole theory on how to train Sprinting based on what we just talked about, costs about 100 grand to make it happen. We’ll find out someday. But. But, you know, you have the ability to do that. So for you, what does slow and small look like? If you’re going to tell someone you want to try this thing and they’re going to dive into, you know, your book at some point, I hope. But, you know, because one person, the number of times someone has said to me, I decided to start small, I just went and did 10 miles. Like, oh, God. Yeah. So. So what does that sound like for you?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, well, the clue is in the little. Was it that one icon on my. So basically that’s what I’ve come up with, is to help people go, okay, can you do one step right? And it’s. That’s, you know, firstly, you got to have glute function, you know, and that’s step zero is glute function. So sometimes that might take a week or two to people to get that, and they don’t necessarily even know that they don’t have it. But, you know, you have to become aware of that first. And then the next one is. Is the, you know, pun intended. The next step is the step. Right. And that basically all it is, is a. Is a reverse lunge. But, you know, you make sure you. When you’re doing a reverse lunge, that you’re actually doing it with your core engaged and you can feel your glute on etc, right? And then from there, you kind of totally ignore the fact that you have a traveling leg, you know, so basically, you’re trying to get your traveling leg to move without using it. Because the grounded leg, which is the. Initially, the front leg, when you’re in that reverse lunge position, should be driving from your hip, from your glute, and you use the. The momentum from driving there, leaning forward to get your traveling leg to come forward. So you’re actually completely switching off the front side aspect.
Steven Sashen
Have you watched my video about walking?
Samuel Stow
No.
Steven Sashen
So this is exactly what I talk about for walking. And then I’ll give you this one that’s kind of fun. I figured out a whack, an extreme version of this for going uphill. And then after doing that for, like, a year, I figured out it works downhill, too. So imagine for the fun of it, we’re walking up a hill. And so you’ve got your right leg planted, and your left leg is trailing, and you turn to your left. So you’re literally pivoting from your. So you’re just twisting slightly to the left. So you’re stretching that right hip flexor. Okay?
Samuel Stow
Yes.
Steven Sashen
And then as you twist back to the right, if you do that, it will kind of release the left hip flexor, which is. Wait, I got to do it. Hold on. Yeah, so I’ve stretched that, right? Yeah. And then as you turn. As you then turn back to the right, it can pull. So, like. All right, be on your right foot, turn to the left. Right. Now as you turn back to the right, if you’re going up a hill, it’ll. It’ll swing that left leg forward just enough.
Samuel Stow
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Steven Sashen
So it plants it, you know, slightly in front of you, but basically under your center of mass, up the hill slightly, and then you just reverse it. So you’re literally just twisting your way uphill.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s. That’s, like, you know, you got to build in steps, but absolutely, like, the rotational side of things is really important. And like. Like, there are so many different systems of, like, spring kind of type mechanisms in our body that we can actually harness a lot of them. You know, like, there’s. As you Fully aware. There’s probably like three different, like spring arches in your foot, right? And then you’ve got like, obviously your whole body when you’re talking about your using your glutes and everything, that’s a spring, like in the normal up and down sense. But then you’ve also got, you know, like, you might have heard of David Weck talking about the spinal engine, which is the rotational. So there’s actually a rotational spring as well. So you can bring all of these in together. And that’s what I’ve been implementing myself in this year and seen ridiculous results.
Steven Sashen
I love it. Yeah. I’m not suggesting that people run the way I just described walking uphill. And again, you do that same thing going downhill and you don’t end up putting on the brakes by putting your foot way out in front of you when you do it. It’s really weird. It sounds crazy, but it’s a fun thing. So I love what you’re describing is, I mean, that functional step is just a brilliant way of making sure that you’ve got that first part correct. And then. Okay, so after someone can do a step, what’s the next step?
Samuel Stow
I like to call it like mindful walking or, you know, mindful steps. You know, so actually just, you know, learning to walk in the way that I taught my dad, you know, which is actually using good posture and good glute activation and propelling yourself efficiently and. Because the good thing, and this is why it’s, you know, it seems to me like just like obvious is that when you cannot actually use your glutes if your posture is bad, so it kind of enforces good posture because you have to have an upright posture, you have to have your core engaged in order for this whole thing to work. So it means that you’re walking around with good posture. And I’ve had clients tell me if like I’ve tried physio, I’ve had massage, I’ve done all these different corrective exercises to fix my posture and nothing worked. And then I just worked with you and like after like four, six weeks, like, everything’s better. Do you know what I mean? Because they’re just moving and like it’s self reinforcing. Does that make sense?
Steven Sashen
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. Well, actually, I have to back up because I misrepresented my walking video where the. The analogy and the analogy or metaphor. Analogy. Anyway, the example that I give, it’s like thinking, thinking about walking, like ice skating or speed skating in reverse in that, in that you’ve Got a planted foot. That’s the one that’s actually driving backwards versus in speed skating, the planet foot is actually not going. And it’s the foot that’s the. The back foot is pushing you forward. But it’s a similar idea. Just which foot is planted is upside down from skating. So like leave the trailing leg from. Leave the trailing leg alone. If you’re. If your stance leg can push backwards similar to what you’re talking about, then you don’t have to do anything with that back leg. It will naturally end up landing basically under your center of mass, setting you up to extend that hip perfectly. So I’m just using a speed skating metaphor because I don’t know why, because that’s what. But I love the way you map that out. And I think. And I did notice in something that you wrote that I really liked, I would argue that. And if Danny or Chi running people listen to this, they might get upset with me. This idea about gravity propelling you forward. Gravity just pulls things down. It definitely. It can help with having to do something to propel you forward because otherwise you will just fall down. But gravity doesn’t pull you forward, it pulls you down. And you have corrected that error in physics, I would argue.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah. I think like the, the notion that you want to lean forward to move forward makes complete sense. The. The thing that, you know, really helps is when you actually think about your body being a spring so that when you fall forward, your body lands and coils up like a spring and then you uncoil. And the uncoiling. You know, this is all David Wex style talk because he’s very much about the coils and so on, but it’s the uncoiling, which is, you know, basically extending, you know, that extension aspect. That’s where you. You’re resisting gravity, but that’s what creates the propulsion.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. Here’s a. This is a re. Way in the weeds question that some people will be interested in, other people will have no interest in it whatsoever. Perhaps. When I was in the lab with Dr. Bill Danz, he used to be head of biomechanics for US Olympic Committee and had a great lab out in western Colorado at a university. There’s. He identified something in me that he said I’ve identified in almost all runners that’s related to what we’re talking about. He said their gluten medias is basically super weak or turned off. Maximus can be fine. Medias can not fine. Any thoughts about that? And we might have to explain what the two are for people who are not hip to.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, so the glute mean. Sorry. Yeah, so the glute manius is the one that’s responsible for trying to keep your knee out. Right. It keeps your hip like. Well, not just your knee out, but it keeps your hip level and keeps it from dropping. Because if your glute medius is weak, it’s on the outside of your hip, then your, your whole hip can drop because you kind of collapse in that hip and then your knee will collapse in and you’ll over pronate and all kinds of problems happen. Right. So yes, you definitely need that muscle to activate in order to keep your hip level and your knee from collapsing in, which is going to help you be more efficient.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, you just remind me of something. And so. Well, actually before I jump into that. So is there anything specific that you’re working on? Again, the, the thing we tease people with is you’ve got to, you know, do something before you work on getting strong. And if they haven’t put two and two together, it’s this alignment and getting proper posture and using your body correctly. Is there anything that is different when you’re. If you’re paying attention to glute medius?
Samuel Stow
I think yeah. So a lot of the focus in running is often on the sort of forward and back side of things.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Samuel Stow
Where you know, if you actually completely ignore the forward and back side of things and just think about leaning forward and using gravity to move you forward, the, the side to side and the rotational things are way more important because that’s where you can actually generate all the power and stability and so on. And so. Yeah, so you focusing interestingly, like what you’re saying about the speed skater, that side to side aspect is what will activate those muscles. So you’re thinking about the side to side movement more than the forward and back movement and that will actually help you get that activation.
Steven Sashen
Interesting. I was. You reminded me of something I saw about a year or so ago. I was on one of the trails outside our house and there was a woman who, as she’s running towards me, I see that her left leg looked perfect, looked totally great. Her right leg was like way internally rotated, her knee was like, you know, way pointing. You know, if you imagine face of a clock, her left leg was pointing at 12 o’ clock, her right leg was pointing at like 10 o’ clock. And as she passed me, she was, she was, you know, a little overweight and she had a very full glute on the left side and, and on the right side, practically none. I’d never seen anything like it. I don’t know if she had an accident or whatever, but it was one of the most interesting things I’d ever seen because normally there’s not something that extreme that’s painting the picture of hey, here’s what’s going on. It was totally fascinating. So, all right, we figured out the first step, then we get now next steps. So the functional step is over your left shoulder, over your right shoulder it says Pop Running. I have a sneaking suspicion we’re transitioning to that part of where what’s over your.
Samuel Stow
If you say so.
Steven Sashen
I mean I could be wrong.
Samuel Stow
No, no, no. Yeah. So Pop Running is, is my company and that’s what I kind of started creating. You know, I came, I created it when I was in America and I actually called it Pop Running Form. But then I, when I came back to Australia, I just abbreviated to pot running because it’s catchier and more all encompassing. And yeah, it’s over time with all my ultra running escapades and the teachings and various things, it’s kind of become a philosophy I think that I kind of have, which is something that I’ve learned from, you know, probably running 100 kilometer, 100 mile runs, 24 hour runs, things like that, that trying to be efficient but also just trying to kind of go easily, you know, and not try and force things. That’s kind of the, where that all ends up.
Steven Sashen
Well for me without knowing it just had that feeling for me of like when you are using these sort of built in springs in your body, that’s kind of the feeling of it and similar. I’ll never forget when I got back into sprinting, a guy who was a very good Division 1 college sprinter. I think he probably weighed about 2:10 at the time. Now he weighs about 260 and he’s still fast because he’s really efficient but, and you know, and is having a hard time dropping weight. But he said to me, you know, sometimes when it just feels like you’re just flying, your feet are barely touching the ground. And I went no. But as I, as I, my form changed and I want to actually back up to what we talked about at front and backside mechanics a little more which basically as my front side mechanics got better because my backside mechanics got better. And I’ll tell you how in a moment now it does feel like that now at full speed it does feel like as long as I’m maintaining maximum velocity it does feeling like, feel like I’m just Barely touching the ground. And I’m going to give credit to the person who gave me this cue that you might get a kick out of this guy named Doug Adams. He has a company called Run DNA. They do gate analysis and retraining. And I think I’ve had Doug on the podcast and the cue that he likes to give people and he gave me, I don’t even know if he gave it to me because he certainly hadn’t analyzed my running. I think I just overheard it maybe or made some comment about it. And the cue was, and he does with people on a treadmill, if they’re, especially if they’re over striding, he’ll stand in front of them and he’ll say, I want you to imagine that as your foot is coming off the ground, you’re going to knee a soccer ball towards me. And it’s a very interesting cue because many people will confuse that with knees up. But the only way you can knee a soccer ball towards someone when you’re running is by getting your foot in just the right spot when it hits the ground and, and coming off the ground in just the right way. It basically corrects backside mechanic problems. And when I tried that, I went from working harder to like, holy crap, I’m just popping off the ground and you know, like, pop. Running, it literally just feels like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And, and when I look at video for sprinters, the front side mechanics are more, are, are kind of more obvious than backside mechanics, but the backside, because the backside mechanics are more, more aggressive, frankly, is the best way that I can put it than, than for distance runners. But anyway, it was a very interesting thing to see that relationship. But like the joke is it, it’s my backside mechanics having gotten better from that weird cue that you think is about your front side mechanics. And it’s just more visible for sprinting in front side because the amount of force you’re putting into the ground, the reflects of the, the Newtonian response of putting hitting your foot in the ground at the right angle is that it does this knee up thing in the front. You’re not lifting it. It’s just that’s where it goes when your backside mechanics are more efficient. Anyway, that’s my sprinting tangential rant. Let’s back up again, pun intended to talking about frontside backside mechanics and what that, what that looks like before and after people activate their glutes and start doing what you’ve been describing.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, well, I think, you know, it’s interesting because on my one of My pages on my website, I’ve got the version of my dad before and after. And if you imagine like an old man walking, right, they’re very.
Steven Sashen
Pause for one second. Your dad’s only seven years older than me, so drop this.
Samuel Stow
I’m not talking about my dad specifically. I’m just talking because if you go, you know, you go far enough to the oldest version, that’s when it becomes the most obvious, the most extreme. Right. But basically they’re very hunched forward, very scooped over, you know, and you can imagine like the zimmer frame style thing where they have to hold onto a frame because if they don’t, they’re going to fall forward and. And then they’re just like picking each foot up and shuffling forward in front of them. Right? That’s the extreme version. Like, so if, if you take a. Take it back 30 to 40 years to someone who’s like middle aged, but they’re still slightly stooped forward and they still have no core activation and no glute awareness, then they’re just going to be swinging their legs in front of them, you know, in order to move forward. And you know, you could obviously make that better by driving the knees up to get your knees a bit higher, but it’s still going to be all front focused. Do you know?
Steven Sashen
Well, I’m going to ask you, because I’m seeing something that’s also all in front of you, but differently when people are, especially if they’re in a higher heeled shoe and that’s making them having to lean back so they’re. Their hips are a little forward. It’s a similar thing. I’m seeing people like just, they’re all they can do is get their feet in front of them because they don’t have the ability or even the room for hip extension. So it’s like. Yeah. Variation on a theme. Doing the same effect for a slightly different reason.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing. Like it’s quite common in pregnant women, for example, because they’ve got this big weight on the front of their stomach. So they kind of lean back.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Samuel Stow
And then hips, instead of their hips being forward, like anteriorly tilted, which is a lot of people’s challenge, they actually become posteriorly tilted so that their glutes get tight and their hip flexors that get extended and stretched, but it, you know, they still have the same challenge where they can’t effectively activate their glutes.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So we have these two situations and I would, without, I would contend that most people, for Various reasons are in that second one where they don’t have any hip extension because there’s nowhere for it to go with their. With when they. When they have posterior tilt. When basically, if you. For people who don’t know what that is, just imagine standing up and just, you know, just sticking your hips forward. Sticking. I mean, just. I don’t know how to describe it any better. Do you have a better way of describing anterior.
Samuel Stow
It’s kind of like, you know, I think some women think about themselves having a flat bum.
Steven Sashen
Oh, yeah.
Samuel Stow
They have no butt.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Get rid of your butt by shoving your hips forward. That’s. That’s. Yeah. That means there’s just nowhere for your feet to go other than in front of you.
Samuel Stow
And so.
Steven Sashen
And are you seeing then that same kind of thing when people are running where there’s just nothing happening behind them because of this alignment and. And.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, well, it’s either of those things. You know, some people when they’re running, they look like they’re leaning backwards and they’re swinging their legs out in front of them. But then other people hunch forward and they’re swinging their legs out underneath them, but their core is not working. So they’ve got like the opposite. They’ve got a duck bump. Yeah, they are poking out, you know.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, I’ve seen that people who’ve learned or heard the phrase run tall, where they think they just need to get their head up towards the sky. That often turns into leaning backwards. Yeah, you know, that same problem. And so, okay, so as we’re then activating the glutes using these spring things, you know, what does the evolution of that look like? What is it? How does it look different for people to try to imagine that?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, I think it’s just like it, you know, it’s basically like thinking about, you know, obviously the functional step side of things where you’re kind of like, you’re trying to propel yourself forward by leaning into it, but pushing and extending through your hips, and then all you’re going to do is get your. Bend your knee. You know, that’s the key point about what you were talking about when kneeing a soccer ball. It’s when we run, we want to bend our knee as it swings through. Because if you think about your elbows, if it’s like arm swing, so if you keep your elbows bent like this, then your arms are going to swing quickly, whereas if your leg elbow is extended, your arm’s going to swing slowly because you’ve got a longer lead.
Steven Sashen
So for people listening, if you got like a 90 degree bend in your arm, you basically made the whole, the whole thing shorter, effectively. So it’s easier to swing because there’s not as much weight further out, which makes it harder to deal with.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, and so the same applies to your leg. You know, if you bend your knee, then all you’ve got as a swinging lever, I guess if you were going to call it that, is your femur rather than the lower leg, because then the lower leg is collapsed behind the knee rather than you having to swing like this big weight of your lower leg underneath your knee, which is what most people tend to do.
Steven Sashen
So, so pardon me if you can. I want to try and break that down for people who are trying to visualize it. So pardon me. I’ve also got the hiccups all of a sudden. So you’ve landed, I’m going to say you’ve landed on your right leg. You’re not worried about your trailing leg, which at this point, I mean, if you’re doing this properly, it’s not trailing very much. It’s really. That’s a whole different story. You are using these springs and propelling yourself forward with your right leg. So talk about just how and when that leg bends as it’s in the swing phase, as it’s coming through, and how that relates to these springs that we’ve been chatting about.
Samuel Stow
The left leg that’s traveling through. Is that what you’re talking about?
Steven Sashen
Yeah, sorry, sorry. Well, yeah, I was already a little further past that in my, my mind. So, yeah, let’s do it that way. You just hit your instance phase or your midst. So you’re. Let’s do it this way. Your right leg has just touched the ground. It’s not even, it’s just, you know, just first touch the ground. What’s happening with your left leg?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, well, I think that’s the key distinction. So, you know, so I have walking courses and running courses. And the key distinction between walking and running is you bend your knee. You know, if you want to walk, all you got to do is keep your leg fairly straight, swing it out in front of you, and then you kind of like touch down on your heel. You still push, but you can kind of roll through it. But that’s what people are often doing when they’re running. So they’re kind of just doing walking, but faster. And the difference is when you actually do it well, you bend the knee as it’s coming through. So then instead of you swinging your leg and landing your Heel out way in front of you. Your foot lands underneath the knee. So as you come through, it comes up and then comes back down and lands underneath your knee.
Steven Sashen
So I want to try and get people to picture like how much bend we’re talking about and how does that change over speed? Because again, I’m thinking running, I’m thinking about the people running in my neighborhood where many of them have learned that they’re trying to use it is going to sound ironic or upside down from what we’re describing. They want to use as little energy as possible. So they’re bending their. Again, your right leg is the one that’s the stance leg. It’s the one that touched the ground. Your left leg is swinging through. They’re bending it just enough so that their toes don’t scrape the ground. They’re bending it maybe a little higher so their toes are at sort of ankle level as it’s coming through. Toes are pointing towards the ground, you know, ankle levelish. What are you describing different from that?
Samuel Stow
I don’t know. I, I, I think, you know, I don’t like to make it too mechanical, you know, I like to make it more feeling oriented. I think that the analogy that you gave earlier on is a good one where you’re like kneeing a soccer ball. It’s just that you want the knee to lead rather than the foot, right? So ideally it’s just that you want the foot behind the knee when you’re running so that when you fall and land on the opposite, on the next foot that it is underneath and then you can immediately activate the spring and continue.
Steven Sashen
I think you just what you described. I want to slow this one down because that one gave me a chill because it’s really fun. So one of the cues that we like to give. I don’t know who we is in that sentence that I like to give and I know I’m not the only one. There we go. But I don’t have a we in mind. Is that when, so your right leg started out on the ground, your left leg swinging through. You’re going to be in the air at some point. When your left foot is the one that hits the ground, you the definition of over striding is that your ankle bone is in front of your knee. If you did a straight line down from your knee. If your ankle bone is in front of that, you’re over striding. If it’s behind that, you are not. And the only way you can actually activate that spring well is if it’s behind, under or behind that knee because then it’s starting to activate, like, right away. Instead of having to deal with excessive forces and wait for the. To get to the point where you’re using it, which by that point it’s. You’re not. You’ve lost that whole spring mechanism. Now you’re having to, like, reengage strength from the bottom up, which is completely inefficient. Did I get that?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah. And I think that the, you know, it all happens very quickly and it’s. You can’t really think about it too much, but what the resulting outcome is that you kind of end up with a natural midfoot landing. Do you know, it’s like some people try and focus on the midfoot landing or the, you know, forefoot landing or whatever, and like, that’s the outcome. It’s not the goal, you know, but if you can make a natural midfoot landing happen because your whole body is moving forward, you know, so your core, your, you know, your center of mass is moving forward as your knee is coming forward. And then you. As you come down and you land on your foot, it’s a midfoot landing, and your foot is very much close to underneath your knee. And then everything can just activate immediately and keep you traveling forward in the most efficient way.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, it really is. What we’re doing is kind of like trying to describe the flavor of a cake or trying to analyze a joke. I mean, everything. It does all happen rather reflexively and quickly. But again, to what you’re saying, starting with the functional step, starting to, like, learn how to feel that slowly and deliberately. And the more you do that, the more it goes. Becomes more hindbrained and allows you to do it without having to think.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah. You can’t just make it happen by thinking, you know what?
Steven Sashen
Well, again, I will argue that you can with the device that I’m imagining building when I have a boatload of money and I can make the device.
Samuel Stow
Is it like one of those Elon Musk like, brain implant?
Steven Sashen
No. Interesting. No. But I’ll tease it this way and see if anyone figures it out. They can leave it in a comment. So, as a former all American gymnast, one of the things that you do, especially for very difficult twisting and flipping moves, is you give yourself more time. You’re able to slow it down and give yourself more time with a spotting belt, for example. I think there’s a way of doing something similar for running so that you have enough time to feel these things and build up the speed from really slow to faster and Faster and faster. And there’s another component to it where about getting the right kind of feedback in the right way. But the biggest thing is to be able to really feel something. If you don’t have those proprioceptive and sensory skills, you need to do it slow. How can you do that with running and then build up over time as.
Samuel Stow
You get more like reducing gravity? Go to space?
Steven Sashen
Kinda. Kinda. I mean, that’s a part of it, but you don’t have to reduce gravity. You need to optimize gravity, let’s say it that way.
Samuel Stow
Okay.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Samuel Stow
Well, I’ll tell you an interesting example that I had actually yesterday. I’ve been doing some more kayaking again recently, and we did a session where they. They had to put us. We had to put resistance on the front of the boat. So we actually had these, like, foam resistance under the boat. And then we were doing sprint sets where we’re trying to push against the resistance. And, you know, it’s similar to dragging a tire behind you right when you’re running around your hips. So you’re having to really drive a lot harder with the paddle to push against this because the boat’s not, you know, floating. And so then we did 10 sets of that, and then we took them off, and it was amazing doing. I did 10 sets after that without the resistance. How efficient I felt and how powerful and quick everything was, because you’re learning how to get the most efficient, powerful stroke and under duress, and then you take the stress away, and then it’s much easier.
Steven Sashen
There’s a. For sprint training, there’s two. There are a couple of versions of that. One is using a parachute with a quick release. And the other is. There’s some really. Well, there’s a device that, if I had way more money than sense, I would own one. Personally, I don’t think any. I don’t know any people that own them. It’s like, you know, universities and spring programs. It’s called the 1080 motion. It’s basically a cable on a wheel with a computer controlling how fast it either extends or comes back. So basically this to you. And it’s for. It’s really good for doing that resisted running, similar to what you described. It’s also good. You turn around and connect it to your front and it will drag you forward. So you’re doing overspeed. So just to keep on your face, you learn that, you know, you learn that you can probably move your legs faster than your brain is used to. And so you’re learning just to get you know, faster turnover, just a tiny bit. Um, so all of these things to basically exaggerate what you’re doing in various directions. Things that I love, like when I’m. Sometimes when I’m trying to teach someone how to run barefoot, I show them what they’re doing wrong and I have them do it wrong, er, because they can’t feel that they’re doing it wrong. And once they feel like, worse, they’re like, oh, yeah, we need to come up with a whole bunch of those. Like, what’s the version of having the foam thing in front of you for running or. That would be very clever.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, Yeah. I. I love using resistance bands. I think that they’re the most accessible thing that you can use to kind of help, you know, apply more resistance. And then that gives you that kinesthetic feedback as to where the effort is supposed to go, do you know?
Steven Sashen
Yeah, it’s a fun thing. I mean, one thing that sprinters do is just. They’ll have someone. Just not even an elastic band, all you can do elastic, but just literally like a belt and someone behind you holding it and you’re running and they’re trying to keep you from running. Then they just let go and you just, like, fly for those next few steps.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, 100. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Steven Sashen
That one’s super fun. It feels like your magic, even if you’re not really running any faster than you were a second ago.
Samuel Stow
Yeah. Because a lot of people are afraid of leaning forward, you know?
Steven Sashen
Yes.
Samuel Stow
Like, especially the older they are, you know, and that’s where, like, people like my dad, when 71, and I work with other older people, you know, trying to teach them that they actually need to lean forward, to move forward, because they’re propelling from the back. So it’s all very counterintuitive. And they’re like. It’s like. It’s going against my inbuilt safety mechanisms to lean forward because I feel like I’m going to fall over.
Steven Sashen
It’s. It’s so funny. I’m. I. I hate to do it this way, but, I mean, I’m thinking back to the walking video I made and I. And while I have this whole sort of like, technique for getting used to some things similar to what we’re describing, I think at one point I say, if all you do is lean forward a little bit and don’t. And don’t try to swing your leg forward, that’ll take care of 90% of what I’m talking about.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s it’s like, it’s posture and. Yeah. Biomechanical.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. And it’s not like you’re leaning forward so much that it looks like you’re walking into the wind. It’s a tiny little bit. It’s like.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, just enough. It depends on how fast you want to go a little bit. But it’s just enough to generate forward movement, really.
Steven Sashen
But so backing up to speed and backing up to knee bend. I mean, it is one thing that people. I encourage people to look at is like, find some video of someone running the distance that you want to run. And by the way, I’m making this up on the fly, so correct me if you think I’m full of. Find someone who’s running the distance you want to run. Let’s say you’re, you know, you’re a 10k guy. Find someone who, you know, like a good 10k runner, Olympic 10k runner, and watch them towards the end of the race, not the last 100 meters, not the last 200 meters, but, like, towards the end of the race, and watch what that swing leg is looking like. Watch the knee bend that they have. Now, granted, they’re going faster than you probably will, so it’s not going to be the same. But just to see what the sort of, you know, end result of the highest level of elite whatever looks like, it’s probably. I think that would be really informative because most people don’t know or they haven’t really paid attention to that because I don’t know why I just noticed people don’t pay attention to backside mechanics.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, I think, you know, you want to find a good example. You know, like, for me, good examples are like, eloquent Choge, Jim Walmsley, people like that, because, you know, like, Jim Walmsley, like, 70 miles into 100 miles still doesn’t look like he’s run, like a mile yet. So that, like, that’s a pretty good example, because I think, like, really the goal is that, for it to be effortless, because if it’s effortless, that’s the only way you’re going to be able to maintain it for 100 miles.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, well. And Kipchug is an interesting one. And again, you don’t want to find people, like, at the end of a race if they’re trying to set a world record or compete, because they’re going to do whatever it takes to get to the finish line. And sometimes, you know, form breaks down and it gets all crazy. But if you catch them kind of like, well, Certainly at the beginning and often in the middle too. It’s still looking like freakishly good and. But then like in the sub two hour marathon, my favorite thing is Kipchoge is wearing these shoes that are, that according to Nike are designed to facilitate the heel to toe rocking motion and you know, never touches the heel of that shoe until the very end where he was like trying to get there under two hours and whatever method you can find, you’re going to do it.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steven Sashen
That’s brilliant. Anything that we left out just about. Again, you know, where we started of this whole idea of getting stronger, learning to use your glutes so they can propel you as you’re doing, as you’re using your body. The way it’s actually meant to be is look, backing up. Yes, people do are fascinated by sprinters, butts. I will confess that I, I think that’s a way of. For Americans who don’t pay attention to track and field, that would be a. What much better way to advertise track and field is just oh my God, look at that. But, but oh my God, look at that. But is what I accidentally said. If you remove the comma. So that’s kind of where we begin. And again, you know that alignment is necessary for the proper use of the musculature that you’re using. That leads to everything else we’re talking about, about using the springs properly and using lean properly. Is there anything we left out that we wanted to kind of touch on before I let you tell people how to find you and experience what we’ve been talking about?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, I think that, you know, like a lot of people might think that this is a very like fanciful conversation about like complicated biomechanics. But you know, at the end of the day it’s actually fundamental movement and it’s not only about running, it’s about being healthy and able to move well for a long time. So for me it’s it, it’s about longevity as much as it is about efficiency because you know my dad has seen a lot of benefits to being able to move efficiently. And you know with good posture like it means that he’s going to be able to walk efficiently and he’s not going to develop that hunch overness, you know, like for example that his, his dad had a little bit more as he got older when he hiked. So it’s a, it’s a longevity tool and it’s just a general health and wellness tool as much as it is about like being Able to run well.
Steven Sashen
Do you know one of the greatest things about being a master sprinter is hanging out with master sprinters who are way older than me. Like, yeah, I’ll never forget. So, you know, there’s a whole thing about the All American times. You have to hit this time to be an all American. And as you get older, the numbers get, you know, bigger and bigger so you’re running slower. Just, you know, kind of no way around that. When I first went to the senior games, when you, when I turned 50, a bunch of 60 year olds came up to me and went, you know, boy, when you turn 60, it kind of falls off a cliff. And then a bunch of 80 year olds were standing behind them and they went, you have no idea what you’re talking about. But the thing, the thing that’s really fun is you look at all these guys and just like you described, they’re not hunched over, they’re active, they’re moving. It’s, you know, it is not for some of them, certainly not ideal. They don’t look like they’re 25, but they don’t look like any other 70, 80, 85 plus people that you’ve seen. And it’s, and, and I don’t, I think that it is. How do I want to put it? It’s not, I mean, they’re, they’re probably some genetic component to it, but it’s also just this continual using your body and paying attention to your body. And I’m very curious to see, you know, well, I’m not 63 yet. I got three more weeks. But I’m really curious to see what happens because right now everything feels fine and I can’t imagine it falling off a cliff other than the fact that I’m getting, you know, a little slower every couple of years. It’s, you know, I’m, there’s a tenth off from whatever my previous time was. So be it. One. Yeah. One of the fun things about masters track is, is you do have these weird goals. Like, all I want to do is hit all American times. If I can keep doing that and if I can hit them in an age group behind mine, thrilled. And having those goals is really a blast. But like, find a master’s track meet and go, go look at some of these people. They’re really inspiring.
Samuel Stow
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I’m surrounded by ridiculously fit looking 70 plus year olds, you know, because I live on the Sunshine coast and it’s kind of like a mecca for, you know, retiring athletes, you know, because it’s Such a nice place to live. And yeah, like there’s, I, I paddle with an 80 plus year old and he’s still pretty decent, you know.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, my, one of my training partners is a 75 year old woman, former, former world champion and, and actually one of my others is a cross country champion who’s also like 75. And it’s, in fact it’s really annoying because I’m the only person I train with who isn’t a former world champion. But that’s okay.
Samuel Stow
That’s good though.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, no, I, I look, the guys in my age group who are world champions, they were all like Olympians, national team people. I mean some of them are still taking a boatload of drugs, but, but that’s cool. I mean, again, all I want to do is be in the conversation. I’m not looking to dominate the conversation, but you’ll get a kick out of this. There’s, there’s a track meet that we’ve had. We’ve had to not have it for a couple of years, but we’ve had it for a while and it’s coming back at the end of the season, outdoor season. It’s an age graded 100 meters, so the older you are, the less you have to run. And the age grading is so accurate based on all of us working on the assumption that we’re all like, you know, really good, that it’s always a photo finish. Not for first, for all eight places. Like there’s videos where you can’t figure out who won because in the last half a step everything converges. But again, it’s super, super inspiring to see it because there’s some guys who are only running 40 meters and then there’s young guys who have to catch them from 100 meter, from 60 meters behind them. And, and I mean it’s, it’s a hoot. It’s a real hoot. But again, you know, find a master’s track race. Go, go check it out. It should be inspiring. Any of that’s my message. But back to you for the win, Sam. People want to find out what you’re doing so they can experience what we’ve been talking about. What are the ways they can do that?
Samuel Stow
Yeah, my website, pop running all1word.com, that’s, there’s lots of different options there. So there’s a free intro to the functional step and there’s also my ebook in a bundle. So I actually wrote a, a book which encompasses not just movement but also like the whole philosophy which includes breathing and mindfulness. And like how to, you know, make the whole process of moving and exercise much more enjoyable. And then if you give the bundle that’s also got a activation workshop, the glute activation program that I mentioned too. So that’s the best way. But if you want to catch me on Instagram, I’m Sam Poprunning as well. So yeah, those are probably two main places.
Steven Sashen
Well, A, thank you, B, brilliant. C, I hope people do check it out. And D, I want to hear what you all think when you do. So please let me know. And back to me for the win. Don’t forget, go over to www.join the movementmovement.com. there’s nothing you need to do to join. There’s no membership fee, there’s no song we sing every morning. It’s just that’s the domain that I got. And you’ll find all the previous episodes, of which there are quite a few, all the ways you can engage with us on social media, please do. And if you have any requests, anyone you think should be on the show, anyone, any comments, any whatever suggestions, if there’s someone you can find who wants to be on the show, who might think I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, that would be super fun because I would love to have a conversation with someone who is on the other side of the spectrum, as it were, drop me an email. For whatever reason, move to M O v [email protected] and most importantly, between now and whenever we hear each other again, although I’m not hearing you, but you can get what I’m saying, go out, have fun and live life feet first.