Think your shoes are helping your feet? You might be shocked by what the science actually says.
In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen interviews Dr. Jenn Perez, Co-Founder and COO of Gait Happens, who joins the show to debunk foot myths and explain how modern footwear influences your movement. Drawing on emerging research and years of clinical teaching worldwide, Dr. Perez explains pronation, toe spring, the windlass mechanism, and why “foot strength” is finally measurable in minimalist footwear studies. She and host Steven Sashen discuss how to build resilient, pain-free feet by allowing them to function as they are naturally designed.
Key Takeaways:
→ Foot strength is more important than quadriceps strength in determining fall risk in the elderly.
→ Changes in gait and walking speed can be early indicators of mental decline and potential dementia diagnosis.
→ Flat feet and pronation are separate concepts with different implications for foot health.
→ Understanding foot anatomy is crucial in designing minimal shoes that support optimal foot function.
→ Foot strength and alignment are crucial for overall health, athletic performance, and fall prevention.
Dr. Jen Perez is the co-founder and COO of Gait Happens, a global leader in lower extremity education. As a chiropractor and gait specialist, Dr. Perez is passionate about educating both individuals and professionals on the importance of lower extremity biomechanics in obtaining meaningful results for patients. She holds a Doctorate in Chiropractic and a Bachelor’s of Science degree in Kinesiology with a concentration in Sports Medicine.
Based in Lafayette, CO, Dr. Perez also owns and operates Kinetic Chiropractic, where she offers personalized care and treatment to help patients restore optimal movement and alleviate pain. Through her online and in-person work, she has helped clients worldwide, with a focus on foot health and corrective exercise.
Dr. Perez has been featured on 9News and in publications such as Women’s Health, National Geographic, and CNN Underscored. In addition to her teaching and course writing with Gait Happens, she has also lectured to numerous educational institutions and associations, including the Canadian Pedorthic Association, Palmer College of Chiropractic, and the Florida Chiropractic Association.
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Episode Transcript
Steven Sashen
Okay, feet are pretty old. I think we can all agree to that. So there’s nothing new that we would know about feet, right? Wrong. There’s a lot going on, frankly, since the whole barefoot thing took off. A lot of people are paying attention to feet in a way they never have before. We’re going to hear more about that on today’s episode of the Movement. Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting feet first. You know, those things at the bottom of your legs. And we also break down the propaganda mythology and sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or do yoga or CrossFit, whatever you like to do enjoyably, effectively, efficiently. Did I say enjoyably? It’s a Monday. Oh no, I know I did. It’s a trick question. Because look, if you’re not having fun, you’re not going to keep doing what you are doing anyway. So find things that are fun. And we’re here to help you do that. I’m Stephen Sashen, co founder and chief barefoot officer [email protected] or eu or.co.uk depending on where you are. And we call this the movement Movement because we including you, no pressure. I’ll tell you about that in a second. We are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your feet and the rest of your body do what it’s made to do without getting in the way and causing problems. So how the we part works, how the you part works, is go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes, all the ways you can engage with us on social media. Subscribe to hear about upcoming episodes of the podcast or episodes that just launched and basically give us a review somewhere, give us a thumbs up. Subscribe on YouTube, hit the bell icon. So you hear about what’s. In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. You know how it works. So let’s get started and have some fun. Jen, pleasure having you here. Do me a favor, tell people who you are and what you are doing here.
Jen Perez
Well, thank you for having me. I am Jen. So Dr. Jenn Perez. I am actually the co founder of Gate Happens and I am here because I like to talk about feet. So I mean truly like the biggest thing in my life is education and I am educating patients in the clinic, I am educating people across the globe and I’m also teaching other practitioners. So really talking about feet kind of is my life. But I like to make it fun. I like to make it interesting, and I like to make it relatable. Because, like you said, if we’re not having fun and if we’re not doing the things that we care about, then really, what’s the value? So my job isn’t just to bore you with foot facts, but really to empower you to keep moving and doing the things you love.
Steven Sashen
Well, we will be doing that. But you made me think of something. I remember being a kid and going to this one shoe store in when Bethesda, Maryland, was a tiny, little sleepy town. And I used to find it really weird, you know, somebody would have a job where they spend the whole time just putting things on your feet and looking at your feet. And for the last 16 years, that has been my job. And, of course, I find it totally fascinating. So if I could go back in time and apologize to that person for my bizarro thoughts, I would. Your judgment? Yeah.
Jen Perez
I mean, to be fair, I actually hated feet. Like, people kind of, like, they. They ask you, how do you. How’d you get into. Right. How’d you get into feet? Like, and it’s, like, such an odd conversation to have, but, like, I hated feet. I thought feet were gross. I wanted nothing to do with them. Even all the way through chiro school. So my background, I am a chiropractor. And even through chiro school, I actually wanted to specialize in shoulders. And so I was a softball player. D1 softball players in college. And I had chronic shoulder issues. Wanted to. Wanted to help overhead athletes throw better. Right. And I show up to this course. It was a rock tape course, which is a kinesiology. And I wanted to learn. The course wasn’t about shoulders, but it was. It was just a taping course, but I wanted to learn about shoulders.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Jen Perez
Well, little did I know that the instructor specialized in feet. And all of the examples were like, foot, foot, foot, and how the foot. How the foot affects gait mechanics. And I had never heard it explained like that, because I love biomechanics. I always have. I’ve loved physics and biomechanics and how it all works together. And so when she started talking, I’m like, wait a second. What? It’s not just this gross thing at the end of your leg, right? It’s like, no, it actually has an impact on how you hit the ground and how the ground hits you and how everything interacts. And it was like this curtain was drawn back, and I was sold. And now here we are ten years later, and that instructor of that course is my business partner, Dr. Courtney Conley.
Steven Sashen
Oh, what a shock. I mean, as people who know how to make feet interesting go, you and Courtney are at the top of the list.
Jen Perez
Thank you.
Steven Sashen
So that’s drawing me. All right. So, you know, my intro is saying that what we know about feet is changing dramatically, in part because when. When zero shoe started just shy of 16 years ago from when we’re recording this now, there was. Well, there was a little bit of research, in fact, the lawsuit against Vibram, the Five Fingers company, where they had made a unfounded medical claim that wearing their shoes could hurt your feet, or, sorry, wearing their shoes would help your feet make them stronger. I think that case fell apart and settled out of court because there was research on previously the Nike Free from Ruderman showing that by wearing a shoe that let your foot actually move, you could build foot strength compared to a traditional shoe. And I think that there’s enough connected dots that the plaintiffs realized this was not going to be a fruitful case. But there wasn’t very much. And then, of course, in the early days, from 2009 through Aye Yai Yai, I mean, a good 10 years, there wasn’t much more because certainly the real research needed to be funded by someone. And us little upstart companies did not have that kind of money. And the big companies were not inspired and incentivized to find out what they already knew, which was that they were hurting people. But in the last, really five years, maybe you’ve seen it a little longer. There’s more and more people getting grant money and research funding from wherever institutions they’re in to look at this. And there’s just a whole lot. So that was my long version of kind of the evolution of things. Do you see it similarly or differently?
Jen Perez
Absolutely, I see it very similarly. So I think, like you said, the interest has risen. And so with the interest, then comes the money. And so now we’re seeing more research coming out. And now there’s several research articles that show that walking in minimalist footwear can strengthen your feet. And it’s really the first category of footwear that can say that, because, you know, just logic and sense. Right. We know that toe spring reduces the amount of work your foot has to do.
Steven Sashen
Wait, let me pause there. So toe spring is most shoes. I don’t have one.
Jen Perez
Oh, I got one. I got you. Don’t worry. I’m prepared.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. Okay.
Jen Perez
So prepared.
Steven Sashen
Yes. So show and explain it for people who aren’t seeing it.
Jen Perez
Yes. Okay. So for those watching, I will show. For those listening, I will explain. But toe spring is if you imagine your shoe sitting level on the ground, and the toes are elevated up off the ground. Many shoes, modern footwear today, has this kind of upward angle of the toes. Well, when your toes inside.
Steven Sashen
And it can’t move down, so.
Jen Perez
And it can’t move down. Yeah. So it stays there. And so with the toes in that elevated position inside the shoe, the toes are extended. And what this does is it creates a rocker in the front of the shoe that allows you to kind of rocker over the shoe rather than having to extend the toes and propel yourself forward. So what that means is it reduces the amount of work it takes for you to propel forward. Now, common sense means that makes it easier, which means you don’t have to work as hard, which means over time, it’s going to weaken your foot again. That’s not the conclusion of the study. If we want to be technical. The study says it doesn’t require as much work, but you put that into application, and if you don’t use it, you lose it. Right. So it’s kind of this back and forth where that. That elevated toe and making things easier on the foot has been the conversation for so long. Let’s make it easy. Let’s support our feet. Let’s do all these things instead of actually strengthening the foot and the. All of the beautiful mechanisms that are built into the foot itself.
Steven Sashen
I was at a panel discussion again, and one of the guys I was debating was a guy from. I think it was Brooks. Don’t hold me for something if I’m wrong. Anyway. And he said something like, you know, our job is to give you a shoe that’s comfortable and propels you forward. And I grabbed the microphone from him. I said, can I be obnoxious for a second? And he goes, okay. I said, nothing propels you forward except your legs. The fact that there’s that toe spring, that rocker thing, doesn’t propel you forward. And I said, don’t.
Jen Perez
Your momentum does that.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. So don’t claim that you’re violating the laws of physics. And he took the microphone back, went, all right, yeah, we’re not violating the laws of physics. Then stop saying things like that.
Jen Perez
Yeah, that’s because nobody’s checking. Checking the work. Right.
Steven Sashen
Well, because to your point, it sounds good. It seems to make sense. Oh, it’s rocking you forward. That must mean that it’s moving you forward. No, no, no. Not doing that at all or similarly. This one’s even better. But this is not on toe spring. But I’ve got to do it. A, an ad that I saw from Nike was the most honest ad I ever saw from them. It said that the shoe gives you the feeling of propelling you forward. And this is about the cushioning in the heel where I tried a pair of those shoes they were talking about. And it does give you the feeling of propelling you forward because as your heel is coming off the ground, the foam is re expanding faster than your heel is moving. So it kind of taps you in the heel, so it feels like something’s happening. But of course, the, a, the bottom of the shoe is not on the ground, so it’s not doing anything. And even if the bottom of the shoe was on the ground, there’s no amount of expanding foam that’s going to move a 150 to 200 pound person.
Jen Perez
Yeah, well. And the loads that go through our feet when we’re walking can be six to eight times body weight. So, yeah, it’s, it’s absolutely insane. Which, when you think about that from a muscular perspective. Right. If there’s six to eight times our body weight going through our feet as we’re walking and especially as we’re running, the amount of strength that we need to keep our, our feet resilient is really incredible. And yet it’s one of the areas that we don’t ever work on actually strengthening.
Steven Sashen
You know, and when you say it that way, like, oh, my God, it has to be strong enough to support all that weight. People go, whoa, that’s, you know, I don’t think I can do that. It’s like, no, no, this is the joke is that you’ve been doing it most of your life.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
Without an issue. And many, many, I mean, like human beings evolved to be able to do that. That’s the amazing thing of the structure of the foot.
Jen Perez
Exactly.
Steven Sashen
Is that it can do that in a way that you’re knees, hips and back cannot.
Jen Perez
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Steven Sashen
So back to the evolution of research. What else have you been seeing?
Jen Perez
So one of the biggest changes I’ve seen in the last few years is kind of the conversation about how the foot works. And so for a very long time, again, I’ll use my foot model for those watching and explain for those listening. But so for a very long time, the conversation around the foot has been that it locks and unlocks. And here’s, here’s kind of what that means when the foot comes down to the ground, we Know that for every action, there’s an equal and opposite reaction. Talking about physics, right? So as we hit the ground, the ground hits us, and that’s called ground reaction force. Now, that force has to go somewhere and we need to be able to absorb it and dissipate it. So what we do with the foot, or how we used to describe this, was we used to unlock the foot, which is also known as pronation, where the foot starts to spread and the arch lowers down and we start to kind of spread out all of the structures of the foot. That was known as the unlocking of the foot. And then when we start to go into propulsion, so as the heel comes off the ground, we needed to lock down the foot to have this kind of locked system, if you will, to push off of. Well, what they’ve found, and Anya Belling and Luke Kelly, and they’ve got a really great crew out in Australia that put this research together, that the foot is a dynamic system. So the conversation is changing because, yes, the foot has to be able to lower and spread, but it also needs to be able to recoil. But it never locks, it never stops moving. It’s always moving and always dynamic. So I started talking about this in terms of, like, if you think about, like, locking as jumping on concrete, right? There’s no give there. So if you imagine we used to talk about the feet as concrete, now we’re kind of talking about the feet as trampolines, right? There’s always this constant lengthening and recoiling that’s happening, and everything is constantly moving.
Steven Sashen
It’s so interesting because we know that there’s a stretch reflex like everywhere else we know that. I mean, we can experience that phenomenon of you stretch something and it wants to come back. And it’s amazing to think that with all of the muscles, ligaments and tendons in the foot and ankle complex, people did not think, well, yeah, that’s got to be what’s happening there, too. And, and. And there is. You know, there’s also just historical things that are. That seem like they’re locking ideas, like the whole. Like the windlass mechanism, which. So I’ll let you explain that to people and how that could seem like a locking phenomenon, but it’s really a trampoline spring phenomenon.
Jen Perez
It totally is. That’s such a good example. So the windlass mechanism, for everybody listening, I want you guys to just put your feet flat on the ground, and all I want you to do is just lift up your toes. Now, specifically, we talk about the big toe, but just lift up all 10. So whenever you lift up your toes, your arch will naturally lift up. And that’s because of the tension in the tissues underneath the foot. This is known as the windlass mechanism. It’s a free mechanism. Basically, whenever our toes lift up, our arch lifts up. Now what we’re talking about is again, what we used to think is during propulsion, so when our heel comes up and we’re going to press off forward, that, that built in mechanism, because when you go to push off forward or extending the toes, we used to think that that lifting of the arch and the passive kind of structures were what propelled us forward. It went right along with we locked down the joints and the passive structures were what pushed us off. So it kind of was this team partnership of stiffness, if you will. Well now there’s been multiple studies that have looked at, they’ve done it kind of both ways, where they looked at pushing off without toe extension. And then they also looked at anesthetizing the muscles of the foot. Because if you think about it, right, if push off comes from the windlass mechanism, then anesthetizing or putting to sleep the muscles of the foot should not have an impact. And what they saw was decreased power at push off when they anesthetized those muscles. And so that goes to show that the muscles are actually creating the tension under the foot that creates that trampoline. You know, I kind of think of. If you think about the trampoline, I really like that analogy. I use it a lot when I’m teaching you think about there’s the black part, the mat, and then there’s the springs all around it, right? The black part is essentially actually the muscles, the muscles are contracting isometrically. So they’re not moving, they’re just contracting to create that tension. And then the tendons around them are the springs that help us move forward. So without a stiff mat, if you will, if that mat wasn’t able to maintain that tension, we have no trampoline, right? So that’s how all these structures, it’s not just the muscles, it’s not just the windless mechanism, it’s not just the joints, but everything working together in this harmony that really makes us efficient movers, which is really, really cool to understand.
Steven Sashen
Well, and I want to back up to a word that you used before. That for many people is the, is a thing that they attach to with an identity as strong as where they’re from, who their parents, parents are, what their lineage is, what religion they practice, and that’s pronation.
Jen Perez
Pronation.
Steven Sashen
So, um, how much do you know about how and why people started thinking that that was a bad word and what’s. What has evolved with the idea about pronation during this time that we’ve been talking about?
Jen Perez
Oh, man. Pronation. Um, so as far as far as history lesson, really, the only background that I have on where a lot of it came from was when flat feet were deemed as bad. And I’m sure that you have more to add into this, which I’d love to learn.
Steven Sashen
Oh, I do.
Jen Perez
When flat feet were deemed as bad and we started being excluded from military. Right. So then there was like this military exclusion for like flat feet was. You were disqualified. You weren’t able to participate. And that was like a huge, like black and white. This is bad. Right.
Steven Sashen
But you can have flat feet or what is being determined as a flat foot.
Jen Perez
True.
Steven Sashen
Not have a. And still not be pronating.
Jen Perez
Yes.
Steven Sashen
Either it was a proxy or it was, you know, something else.
Jen Perez
Yeah. And that’s. Let’s. Let’s break that down for a second and then you can jump in with the history. So. Because there is this really big misconception around, number one, what flat feet are, and number two, what pronation is and technically are that they are different things, but those terms get thrown out interchangeably. And so if you think about arch height. So like, when people say I have high arches or flat feet, we’re actually talking about the height of the medial longitudinal arch, which is that big arch on the inside of your foot. And here’s the thing. Some people have high arches and some people have low arches, and that’s okay. It’s kind of like walking around.
Steven Sashen
Hold on, hold on. That sounded like a. That sounded like a Sesame street move. That was. That was something Grover’s gonna say.
Jen Perez
I mean, but really, like, it’s okay.
Steven Sashen
No, no, you’re right.
Jen Perez
I mean, like, it’s the same as walking around being like, oh, well, I have this problem because I’m tall and I have this problem because I’m short. Like, it’s really. It’s more phenotypical than anything. It’s just your presentation. What matters is how much the arch moves and how strong those muscles of your feet are. So as long as you’re mobile and strong, regardless of your arch, quote unquote type, you can absolutely live a long movement filled life without foot pain. Now, talking outside of high arch, flat feet, into pronation. So with pronation, we talked about this a little bit before, is when the foot comes down and hits the ground we’re going to see that arch lower down. So we’re going to see opening of the joints along that medial arch. Now if we drift into excessive pronation, what you can see from behind is kind of this tilting where if you drew a line down the back of the calf and down the back of that heel bone, it kind of starts to create this bow or this c. And for again, for a long time this has been known as a bad thing where people are over pronated. And then I can’t tell you how many people come into my office and say they’re, they have flat feet and they’re over pronating and they’re literally like pes cavis high arch. When I put a pedograph under them, they don’t even, their whole foot doesn’t even touch their, the ground. It’s like this word has been thrown out all the time. And pronation is absolutely necessary as long as we can get in and get out. It’s a great motion to have.
Steven Sashen
So to echo that, the, the. When I was in the lab with a guy named Dr. Bill Sands, he was a former head of biomechanics for the US Olympic Committee and he had a lab out in western Colorado at what’s now Mesa State University or Colorado Mesa University, I think that’s what they call it now. And he said there’s pronation is not an issue. Hyper pronation, basically, if you can’t control it, that’s the issue. But it’s a natural kind of spring like thing that’s built in your foot and you watch world champion marathon runners and you know they’re the inside of their ankle bone can practically touch the ground. They’re pronating so much when they’re running, except that everything just springs back because it’s super strong. The I, I suspect that where this became a dirty word because when you have a shoe with an elevated heel, with a padded elevated heel, where you end up naturally landing on your heel with your foot somewhat outstretched more in front of your body, you have no control at that point. And so at that point, you know, since the heel is a ball, Calcaneus’s ball, it’s going to roll in some direction and for most people it’s going to roll inward and you’re going to pronate. And so shoe companies came up with a way of saying, oh, here’s a thing that we can call a problem and then sell a correction for it. And because you see that you go into shoe stores and this is what they do, they do Some little thing to see if you quote, pronate, and then they assign you a shoe. And it feels. I mean, look, we love it when people take us seriously. It’s like it’s my own personal little thing. I mean, I’m a special little snowflake. So anything that you can do to make people feel like a special little snowflake, they’re going to spend more money. And my favorite thing is there’s a guy who I would love to have on the podcast, uh, but it would be very challenging for a reason I’ll mention for the fun of it, is Simon Barthold. And the reason that I would love to have, I would love to have Simon Barthold is that he used to be Mr. Anti Pronation and now he’s Mr. Who Gives a Crap About Pronation. And when you ask him what changed, he says, the research. And if you ask why I’m nervous about having him on, it’s because he loves quoting research like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And if I don’t have that study in front of me and have 5, 10 minutes to look at it and figure out what might be a problem with the study or a confound or some other thing, I mean, he can out study me, if you will, all day long. And my fantasy would be that I would say, let’s think about. I mean, let’s just break these things down and look for what might be problematic in that study or what might be from what we know, just, you know, common sense. Not what the masses think, but common sense from a kinesthetic, biomechanical perspective.
Jen Perez
Yeah, well, we actually did an interview with Simon Bartoldt and had a go. I forgot. Yeah, I mean, this was years ago, so forgive me if I don’t remember all the details, but one of my big takeaways from it, which was really interesting was, you know, we come from very different backgrounds and we come from very different perspectives, and we knew that going into it, but we were very. It was a very respectful conversation, which I absolutely love when you can disagree with somebody, but you can, you know, both present your side of the argument. And where we fell in the middle was it was actually a quote that we had taken from Irene Davis because we also did an interview with her. And it’s basically, it came down to use as much shoe as needed, but as little as possible.
Steven Sashen
Yes. So, I mean, this is, well, Irene’s version of that is if you’re going to over stride, land with your foot way out in front of you and heel strike you want some protection for that because you’re going to get screwed if you don’t. Ideally, you don’t want to be doing that and therefore using less and less shoe. And at the same time, if you’re not ready to run over granite, you know, sharp granite, whatever, in your bare feet, which nobody is, then you want a shoe that’s going to accommodate that. Basically, there’s a use case for footwear. You don’t have to, you don’t need to be an absolutist. If you’re climbing, if you’re doing certain kinds of rock climbing, you need a certain kind of rock climbing shoe. And so, yeah, there’s. They’re functional necessities. If you’re missing one or both of your feet, you need something special for that situation.
Jen Perez
Yes. Yeah. I actually want to circle back to the, the pronation conversation for a second because I think you brought up a really good point of the shoes effect on pronation and you talked about the elevated heel component. But I want to add one more piece to that, and that is the shape of the toe box.
Steven Sashen
Yes.
Jen Perez
Right. Because if you think about the foot, and this is an oversimplification, but we like to talk about the foot tripod, right. Where this, the. If you think about the stable points of the foot being the center of the heel, the big toe and the ball of the big toe, and then the pinky toe and the ball of the pinky toe, basically, if that’s our tripod, if we sweep the big toe over towards the other toes, I’m basically.
Steven Sashen
Just literally pushing it in.
Jen Perez
Literally just pushing it in. Right. If I push that big toe towards the other toes, and now I just swept away one of the legs of that tripod, which way is my tripod going to fall? Right. So I’m literally taking away the stability pillar. So that first ray, which is your metatarsal and your big toe, I’m taking away the stability of that entire medial side of the foot where that arch is, because I sweep the big toe towards the other toes and immediately I’m going to open up those joints and see more pronation, which our body then can’t control because it’s going past the range of motion that it’s supposed to have and the stability mechanism that it’s supposed to have, isn’t there?
Steven Sashen
Well, and what’s interesting is there’s some shoes that will say that they’re wide because they’re wider at the ball of the foot and then they just get pointy, pointy, pointy, and they’re still just basically taking that big toe and moving it in so much that it has no function.
Jen Perez
Yeah, well. And you and I both know that saying wide and wide toe box are two different things.
Steven Sashen
Very different things.
Jen Perez
Right. So just for those watching the size wide. So number one, they can say their shoe has a wide toe box and really only widen it at the ball of the foot, like you were just saying. Or if you take a regular shoe and then you buy it in a size wide. Because I hear this from my patients all the time. Like, I know I need wide, so I bought this as in a size wide. And then I feel bad because I’m like, okay, can we still return them? So when we talk about a size wide shoe, we’re actually creating more width at the midfoot and sometimes creating more volume in the upper so that we have. If we have a more high volume foot, we have more space. That does nothing to change the triangular shape of the toe box, which is what would be a true wide toe box or natural shape of a foot. Right. We actually need that shoe to widen and have a straighter shape or wider shape at that shape toe box. And that’s what would allow that big toe to stay in alignment, which would keep the stability of that medial column, which would help fight some of that pronation created by shoes.
Steven Sashen
So to highlight something about what you just said, this is one of my little pet peeves. So as more people have gotten interested in this and as there’s been more research, one of my favorite, least favorite things is when I see someone showing a picture of, like, you know, a baby’s foot and how it’s basically just triangle. It’s like a trapezoid. It just goes wider, wider, wider, until there’s toes and they go, that’s, you know, a baby’s foot. That’s what our foot should be like. It’s like, that’s like saying a baby’s proportion of head to body is the way we should be when we get older than half of our body.
Jen Perez
They can’t touch their hands above their head.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s like, no, no, no. And then they show, you know, a certain, like some sort of aboriginal tribe where they have, you know, really, really wide feedback feet, similar shape. And I go, but you forget that they. I don’t want to use the word inbreeding in a negative way, but. But there’s a huge genetic component to what they have. And so there’s this sort of like fantasy, naturalistic fallacy idea of what a foot should look like. Which is, you know, starts at the heel and get narrow and just goes wider, wider, wider, kind of into infinity.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
You know, like people. Even as you said, like sort of on the. The big toe side kind of straighter, flatter. People forget that, you know, the very end of your toe, it does curve in. Your toes are not, you know, are not just linear. And so there’s a way of. And I say that clearly somewhat defensively, because when you look at a zero shoe, it does curve in a little bit where your big toe naturally curves in without moving your big toe in. So that there’s a whole, you know, foot shaped. And now granted that even that foot shape exists on the same kind of spectrum from flat feet to high arch.
Jen Perez
That.
Steven Sashen
And there are people who have, like, really, really wide things from the ball of the foot forward. And, you know, and. And there are people who are the exact opposite. We have one of our basketball players who wears our basketball shoe, the X1 who has really narrow feet with great natural toes play. He’s just like, his whole body is super long and narrow.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. And so he’s like a double A, but still has a. Has a great foot. And so people like to hyper. Simplify things.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
And use ideas. My. Actually, my favorite one, this. This is a different one where people argue against the barefoot idea. They go, well, we didn’t evolve to run on, you know, flat, hard surfaces. I go, you should go and take a look at where we evolved to run and walk. These are harder surfaces than what you’re used to and with more crap on them than you would ever want to step on. So. And we also didn’t evolve to do a standing double backflip, but I could do one. So, you know, there’s just confusion.
Jen Perez
You really. Because I’m going to need a video of that.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, I used to. Actually. No, here’s what happened. I’ll give you the short version of the story. I was about to try one, literally about to throw it, because I had a really, really crazy good standing backflip. And at the last second, as I’m literally like gearing up to throw it, my coach, who’s at the other side of the gym facing away from me, stops in the middle of what he’s doing and just turns and points at me, goes, no. And it just shocked me. And I didn’t do it. I said, what the hell just happened? He goes, the last time I was in a gym where it got that weirdly quiet was when I was about to try a standing double backflip 10 years ago. And I knew you were about to do it, and so I did the closest thing. I basically did it into a foam pit where I made it so I could. It looked like I could have done it on the ground because I was competing and I didn’t want to break anything by doing anything stupid. I knew I’d make it past my head. I knew I’d be fine.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
I didn’t want to land in a way where I’d bust up my ankles, so I didn’t do it. But I could. But. But again, you know, we didn’t learn to fight fighter jets. I definitely can’t fly fighter jets.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
But we can do that, too. So, anyway, there’s this whole, like, natural naturalistic fallacy and inverse naturalistic fallacy that’s. That’s a little bizarre. Anyway, all right, back to wherever we were. I don’t know where we dropped off.
Jen Perez
Well, I think in general, that’s a really good point because people like to think of things in black and white, and unfortunately, that’s just not how it works. Right. There’s always shades of gray and there’s always, like. We like to talk about, like, a shoe spectrum. Just like we talk about, you know, there’s different shapes to the foot. Like you said, there’s some people that have a narrow forefoot and there’s some people that have a wider forefoot, but as long as their toes are in alignment with their metatarsals, we’re happy. Right. It’s when the metatarsals are pointing straight forward and their toes are pointing at each other that now we have problems. Right. Because not only from a joint. I mean, that’s a very easy conversation to have. Right. The joint alignment does not look right. If I was to hang my door crooked and open it 10,000 times a day, something would go wrong. That’s very simple. You know, outside of all the other physics that I can jump into, as far as the tie bar mechanism and the stretch reflex that happens when the forefoot splays. There’s so many beautiful things that happen when we let our foot spread the way that it’s supposed to, but simple enough, just let the joints be in alignment, right?
Steven Sashen
Yeah. Was there anything else from your conversation with Simon Barthold that struck you as particularly interesting, either in a positive or negative way? I mean, negative into that you guys were, you know, pointing in other directions?
Jen Perez
No, I don’t. I don’t really don’t think there was a lot of negative that came from it one of the topics, actually, it makes me want to go back and listen to that conversation because he talked a lot about muscle tuning and kind of the vibrations that happen within the different tissues and the frequencies that they vibrate at. But honestly, it’s been so long since that conversation, I can’t even remember what the takeaway was. But it definitely makes me want to go back and listen to it.
Steven Sashen
That would be interesting. Bill Sands, that was one of his big things is out of all the different interventions that people had tried that he found in, in his research that made no difference. He thought that that was a biggie. So he was really into compression calf sleeves. And I don’t think he did anything below the ankle, but he saw that, that basically a certain kind of uncontrolled vibration could cause problems because basically it’s making it so the muscles aren’t able to fire properly or in the right sequence or something. And so they’d be fighting against each other and couldn’t lead to issues.
Jen Perez
Yeah, it’d be interesting to see like, tying that research into like dry needling research. Right. When you’re doing dry needling and like use E stim because you get that muscle reset.
Steven Sashen
That would, that would be really interesting. I mean, I. So I have a messed up spine. My L5S1 is all jacked. And so my science, technical term. Yeah, I didn’t want to get too technical, but look it up. So for people who care, I have a grade 2L5S1 spondylolisthesis with a pars defect.
Jen Perez
Okay.
Steven Sashen
And if you, and if you looked at an MRI of my spine, you don’t need to be a radiologist to go, jesus, that’s bad. And if you do look for my sciatic in the mri, you do have to be a radiologist. You’ll still go, oh, that’s bad. So when I was getting a lot of injuries, when I first started running barefoot, which. Or when I first started back In a sprinting 18 years ago, I could literally almost feel that the signals were not getting to the muscles at the right time and they were fighting with each other and that would lead to strains. And I’ve had that happen like, you know, once or twice in the last however many years. But that’s a really interesting idea. And the muscle tuning thing is intriguing because again, there’s mythology around that about what you’re supposed to do to get things ready to fire properly and etc. Etc. So that, that is an interesting, an interesting something. Oh, but to try needling. Sorry. For to jump in on that one. I’m actually getting some of that now. Yeah. Because I’ve had. So my right knee, thanks to gymnastics, is actually messed up as well. It’s bone on bone. On the lateral side. They carved out 30% of my meniscus and that finally caught up with me. And so there are, there are muscles and tendons, muscles really in my lower leg that are firing like non stop to try to keep things stable. And it’s made other things get out of whack. And it’s been interesting as we reset those kind of getting underneath and finding out, no, here’s the real problem that’s actually going on. It’s been both satisfying and annoying at the same time.
Jen Perez
But, well, it’s amazing how our bodies protect it. Like how our body will protect itself, you know, like, like you said, if those muscles are guarding, when you take that away, you’re very much going to feel, oh, what were they guarding for?
Steven Sashen
You know, the muscle tune is good one. We’ll have to do something about that.
Jen Perez
Yeah, the, the other conversation that, that reminds me of was the Irene Davis one where we were talking about how the muscles prepare for landing. Right. And that I find really fascinating going back to the shoe conversation because basically if you think about, I’m a very visual talker. So I’m trying guys, for the, the audio learners. So if you think about having a baseline when you hit, hit a surface. We talked about this earlier with that ground reaction force. Right. When you hit a surface, we want to kind of meet in the middle. So if you’re landing on a surface that’s soft, think about like sand, like soft sand stepping in the mud. Something that’s going to squish underneath you, right?
Steven Sashen
Oh, no, let’s get fun. Memory foam inside your shoe.
Jen Perez
Well, yeah, exactly. That’s where this is going. Right? Okay, so, but let’s, let’s start barefoot. So if we’re going barefoot, but this is like our natural ability of our body to temper our environment. So if we’re going to stop on a really or step on a really soft surface, our body, our muscles will create more tension in order to create stiffness in that soft surface. This is also why so many of my patients come in and say their pain started when they had a beach vacation because their muscles had to have more tension than they were used to. Side note. But on the flip side of that, right, let’s think about a really hard surface. So if I was going to walk barefoot on concrete, if I was going to come down, my tissues need to be a little bit softer, a little bit more pliable so they can adapt to that hard surface. So this is kind of our body’s ability to temper our environment, but when we interfere with that. Right. This is where the shoes come in. So if I’m walking on concrete, naturally, my muscles should be a little bit softer, more supple in order to adapt to that. But if instead I put a whole bunch of cushion underneath my foot, now I’m going to come down hard on a hard surface underneath me because I have no repercussions of that. Right. So we’re actually changing the way that our body adapts to our environment by interfering with what we’re feeling underneath our feet.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, the way I say it is, you’re, you know, you got these 200,000 nerve endings in the sole of each foot, so your brain knows what you’re stepping on or in or actually, more importantly, your. The reflex arc you have in the base of your spine, it’s going to go up and right back down. And when your brain or your body can’t feel it, it’s going to land harder to get some feedback. And by then it’s too late. And now, especially if you’re landing with your foot out in front of you, you’re going to be sending a spike of force into your joints. And whichever one is weakest, ankle, hip, knee, back. Not in that order then. Hopefully not, then that’s going to be the one that’s going to bear the brunt of it. And that was Christine Pollard’s research where she was. She literally thought that cushioning was going to be good and reduce impact forces and was stunned to see that it either didn’t reduce them or made them higher.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
And again, it’s one of those things that common sense. Yeah, common sense says cushioning must feel good. It feels good, so it must be good. But when you think about it from a biomechanical perspective or a neurological perspective, it’s like, no, no, no, no, no. Get gets in the way. I mean, the example that I love to give is the big fat circus guy in a slow motion video takes a cannonball to the stomach. You ever see this?
Jen Perez
No.
Steven Sashen
It’s a slow mo film from God knows how long ago. And he bends around the cannonball as it hits him and you see ripples of fat moving around because he’s a big fat guy. So that’s the pressure getting spread out, but the force of the cannonball still sends him flying back into the tarp. That catches him and same thing, you know, with the foam or whatever. You don’t feel it as much, but the force has still got to go somewhere.
Jen Perez
Yeah, yeah, that’s true.
Steven Sashen
So anything else in the new news about how feet work and how. And how people and. Or footwear companies are dealing with that, or not dealing with that, as the case may be?
Jen Perez
I don’t. I think we’ve covered most of the new research on how the foot works. I would say the one other area of research that’s getting a lot of attention right now when it comes to the foot is fall risk. So fall risk.
Steven Sashen
Fall risk. Oh, yeah.
Jen Perez
So actually they’re finding there with a lot of research and this isn’t super new. There’s, there’s probably over the last 10 years, there’s a bunch of research articles pointing towards this, but they’re starting to stack up where you can’t ignore it anymore. And what they’ve found is that weakness in your feet is one of the top indicators of fall risk in the elderly. And we know that falls in the elderly is one of the highest risks for mortality because it can lead to things like hospitalization and hip fractures and things like that. So one of the studies in particular actually looked at foot strength compared to bigger muscle groups like your quadriceps. And foot strength was a much bigger indicator if people had weak feet. I believe, I believe the statistic was, was 20% higher risk of falls compared to strong feet. And there was zero difference across the quad strength, like weakness versus strength. So that was one study. Another study looked at foot strength as basically individual indicator. So outside of anything else, because we know when you have comorbidities, when you have other things going on, everything stacks up to increase your fall rate risk. But they wanted to look at risk factors in isolation of other risk factors. And the only two that came out of the study with being identifiable by themselves was blood pressure and toe strength. And it was like those two things alone can identify your fall risk outside of anything else.
Steven Sashen
And, and again, let’s back up. You’ve been wearing issue with a bunch of toe spring. You’ve been squeezing your toes together. You haven’t been using your feet. They get weaker over time. This was Katrina Protopapas. It’s like put arch support in healthy people’s shoes and in 12 weeks they’ve lost 70% of the strength in their feet. So Aaron Futrell did some research on this sponsored by the CDC and showed again, similar things. And there’s actually a related one. This is One I found really interesting. One of the nurses at Duke University identified this. Oh gosh, this is maybe 13 years ago. Ish walking speed, high correlation to being dead within 5 years. And of course when we watch elderly people when they’re having issues walking people, they tend to get prescribed bigger, thicker, stiffer, less feeling, less mobility. I mean it’s just a vicious cycle downward. They’re walking slower to get, you know, so they don’t over plant their foot too far in front of their self and not be able to balanced properly. So it’s just, you know, it’s just like running downhill except that they can’t run, but they are going downhill. It, I mean again, it’s. It just blows my mind.
Jen Perez
Yeah. Well, you can see also alterations in gait up to seven years prior to a dementia diagnosis. So alterations in gait can be one of the first signs of mental decline leading to dementia.
Steven Sashen
What specifically do you see?
Jen Perez
I believe that also came down to speed. Speed and cadence because they are two different things. And potentially I’m going to stick with speed and cadence. Cause I feel like there was another one and I don’t remember what it was.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, it could. That’s interesting. It could be. I mean, I think about my mom went through having Alzheimer’s and I don’t recall she also fell down and broke her hip, but she was so like Alzheimer that she had no memory of it. And it’s like, how’s your hip? What do you mean? It’s fine. Like you’re in a wheelchair, you can’t walk the. So I’m. I’m trying to remember what her mobility was like earlier. And I just wonder how much of that gait change relate. I mean, I don’t know how this is really. I’m hoping other people could think about this. The fact that you start losing certain abilities, cognitive abilities, what does that do to how you’re interfere interfacing with the world and walking more slowly because of that difficult interface. That’s a really interesting. I’m gonna have to find that research. That’s a really interesting.
Jen Perez
I can send you the article. I know, I know right where I have it. I just.
Steven Sashen
Oh, send it and we’ll put it in the show notes. I mean that’s a really interesting path to go down. And I wonder, I mean if you identify. Can identify that early enough. If you can. If there can be some intervention. Way back when, when I first started doing this, yeah. There was a guy at the University of Pittsburgh. I can’t remember his name right now. Who did research that I’m not crazy about because it was based on using FMRI in a way that the woman who first put someone’s head in an fm, if in an fmri, Joy Hirsch said, you can’t really use FMRI for this. But the gist was, took elderly people, it was a longitudinal study, like nine year study, and looked at the amount of gray matter they had in their brain over time. And the ones who retained the most, were the most active, did the most walking. And I said to him, after I read the research, imagine what would have been like. I said, why do you think it made a difference? And he said, all the sensory information they’re getting from just being out and walking. I said, imagine if they were getting more sensory info from their feet as well. And he said, oh, that would, that would be, that would make a big difference. So. But of course we don’t have the money for a nine year study to. Yeah, but it showed.
Jen Perez
Yeah, I mean the walking research is, that alone is incredible because they, they’ve shown different studies with step counts where you can reduce, you know, depression, you can, you reduce your risk of dementia by step count. And it’s just, I mean, yeah, again, the research is endless. So it all comes down to move more. Right. The movement. Movement. It’s, the more you move, the more you maintain. And that’s what we want to do, is maintain a healthy life for as long as we can. At least that’s what I want to do.
Steven Sashen
My favorite part about my wife and I got our first ever for each of us dog three years ago, something like that. And my favorite thing is walking the dog because my favorite thing is going clouds. I just, you know, the clouds around Colorado as you know, are, when they’re, when they are in the sky, they’re utterly delightful.
Jen Perez
Yeah. You and my son would get along. He’s constantly in the car going, clouds. Sorry, my son’s three for those.
Steven Sashen
I was going to say, please don’t tell me he’s 16.
Jen Perez
Clouds. Clouds. And I’m like, yeah, buddy, I see the clouds. So.
Steven Sashen
So this will get a little personal. Ish. I mean, I’ve talked about it before, but two and a half years ago there was about a 16 week period where we didn’t know if I was going to live or die because I had a rare cancer in my eyeball. And during that time, at one point I’m walking the dog and it’s particularly beautifully cloudy day and I literally had this thought in my head. I said, oh man, I’m going to miss those if I’m gone. We don’t have them on my planet. And I took a great picture of one the other day when I was walking the dog. It looked like a giant fish in the sky, like a mile long fish with fins and everything else to send you the picture. It was great.
Jen Perez
That’s awesome. I love it.
Steven Sashen
All right. Anything we’ve missed and things that, that’s kind of new things for people to think about when it comes to feet and function and movement.
Jen Perez
I mean, I think just to kind of summarize some of the stuff that we’ve talked about right. Is number one, the feet are a mobile system so we need to allow them to move. If we try to interfere with that, we’re going to interfere with how our feet sense our environment. We’re going to interfere with that stretch, recoil and we’re also going to see that atrophy of our muscles, the decrease in our strength over time, which we’ve talked about. All the reasons why that’s important, from just simple propulsion to fall risk in the elderly, you know, and we didn’t even get into athletic performance. But there’s also research on flexor digitorum brevis, increasing jump height, vertical jumps, sprint speed, change in direction. Right. So all of these different components come back to let your feet function, let them be strong, don’t interfere with their function. And then going back to that, letting the toes spread from a stability, alignment and engagement perspective.
Steven Sashen
I still think that there’s. I don’t know if there’s research about it, but I still think there’s some, some way to go on getting rid of some of the mythology, especially mythology as it applies to what people then end up selling other people based on stories that aren’t true. So, you know, like the whole thing of toe spring. Okay, that’s fine, they’re not working. But I think the con, I think there’s some confusion there that when you’re running, this has been going on since, my God, since I remember being six years old and hearing this of like, you know, pushing with your toes, toe off, that you’re doing some active thing with your toes. But the reality is by the time your toes could be doing that, you’re so far past mid stance they’re not adding anything concentrically. But there’s a very significant isometric component or possibly eccentric component that I don’t think has really been looked at, especially when it comes to athletes, especially because of the shoes that they’re wearing where they’re, you know, in a compromised position to begin with. So that. That’s one. And when it comes to, like, products, I. I see people selling things based on, like, look how springy this thing is. Like, yeah, great. But it. That spring doesn’t work anywhere in the natural gate cycle. It’s a cool magic trick, but it’s not doing anything. Or, again, the feeling of propelling you forward from, you know, from that Nike ad. I think there’s. There’s still, like. There’s. There’s things that. Trying to think how to describe this that I’m just dying to dive into that are weird, goofy, subtle things and to be completely something about it. I have no illusion that if the research comes out showing all these really cool things, that it will make it down and make footwear companies change what they’re doing or that the majority of people will ever hear about it or whatever else. But I think it’s important for those of us who are carving a new path to have it in our back pocket. And happily more and more of that’s happening. But, you know, we’ll see.
Jen Perez
You know, I mean, we can only do what we can do, right? We can keep shouting from the rooftops and hope that more people listen. You know, that’s why we have conversations like this. That’s why, you know, Courtney’s been on a couple of major podcasts in the last couple years, which has been awesome, because it’s helping get the word out there. Like, people are. I think people are thinking about their feet more than. From a functional perspective, more than they have ever, ever before.
Steven Sashen
Absolutely.
Jen Perez
So I think. I mean, even going to the gym, right? I’m still seeing people wearing clouds at the gym. Like, I’m not talking about on clouds. I’m talking about, like, clouds. Like, they are wearing pillows on their feet at the gym, but I see them take their shoes off, and I never saw that before. Right? This is, like, in the last two, three years, I’m at, you know, Big Box Gym, and I see at least 20 people that have their shoes off. And I’m like, that’s a win for me. You know, I still go to the airport, and. And that’s. That’s always my temperature check is like, you know, when I’m feeling good about getting the message out there, and then I go to the airport. I’m like, oh, God. Ah, we have so far to go. We have so far to go.
Steven Sashen
There was once a guy in front of me at the airport with, you know, big, thick foam shoes and the. And they had caved in on the inside. So his. The shoes that you put them next to each other, the midsole. The foam part looked like a V. Okay. And so I took a video of this, and this tells the difference about different social media platforms. I posted the video on Facebook just from the knees down, just showing how this guy walked with, you know, his feet, like, way, way inverted that way. And on Facebook, everyone’s going, oh, my God, shoes are horrible. That’s killing him. That’s horrible. And on Instagram, stop. Stop body shaming that guy.
Jen Perez
Yeah. Stop filming other. Stop filming strangers. That’s why I’ve never done it.
Steven Sashen
But I’m all, yeah, body shaming. I’m shoe shaming. What’s the problem with that? Yeah.
Jen Perez
But meanwhile, then when I do see somebody at the airport, there was a guy the other day who was walking past me. He was, like, very much like, on a mission, but I couldn’t help it. And he was wearing some brand that I recognized. And I was like, hey, nice shoes. As I was, like, walking by, and he looks back at me, he had this, like, angry face on. He’s like, what’d you say? And I was just like, nice shoes. And then I walked away. And he was like, oh, I love these shoes. I was like, you know, so I’m like, oh, this is great. You know, So I try to call it when I say it, because that’s what I’ll. Keep them going.
Steven Sashen
I do as well. And it’s very funny when. When it’s people who recognize me versus people who don’t. So I was in my sister’s gym where there’s a handful of people wearing zero shoes. A friend of mine says when I go to the gym, he goes to North Carolina. He goes. The preponderance is zero. It’s like over 50% are wearing zero shoes. But I met my sister’s gym, and there’s a guy wearing our shoes. And she comes up to him and says, hey, what do you think of those? And he spent 10 minutes raving. And she points to me and says, don’t you know who this is? And he didn’t because he bought his shoes on Amazon and never, like, other.
Jen Perez
Than a little picture connect with the brand.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, it didn’t really have that. That thing, so. But. But it is. I judge it based on how many times I get recognized on cost in Costco.
Jen Perez
Okay.
Steven Sashen
And on average, it’s three. So when. You know. But it started out a couple years ago, it was one, and before that it was zero. Right now it’s three. And. And. And that’s with me trying to get out of there as fast as I can because that place is a nightmare. I mean, I love it.
Jen Perez
I love Costco.
Steven Sashen
Oh, my God.
Jen Perez
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
This putting your cart sideways in the middle of the aisle and just staring with your mouth open at something. It’s a good thing.
Jen Perez
Contemplation.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Jen Perez
My favorite story of recognition is I was at an event actually at Stride Lab, which is a minimalist shoe store in Boulder for those listening and. I know, I know you know that.
Steven Sashen
No, you know I know you know I know.
Jen Perez
But I was at an event at Stride Lab. So it’s like, you know, you’re with your people. It was actually a Katie Bowman came into town. It was after her book signing. And so you’re like, with the, like the foot people, right? And I’m there to support. And I’ve got my. My Gate Happens jacket on. It says like Gate Happens down the sleeve. And this guy was very, very nice, but he comes up and he’s like, gate Happens. I love her. Are you a patient of her?
Steven Sashen
In a related note, when. When your partner, Courtney, business partner Courtney, was on Peter Tia’s podcast, it was. I enjoyed getting double name checked when. When she said, you know, referred to, you know, these zero shoes from Steven Sashen and Peter’s go. Yes, Steve is a good friend of mine. Yeah, two in a row. We succeeded. All right, well, this has been an absolute pleasure, as I knew it would be. Jan, if people want to get in to with you, find out more about what we’ve been talking about or if they have some issue where they need some help, because I know that you don’t have to see people necessarily in your office tell people what they can.
Jen Perez
Do to do more, to find us to learn more. All the things. I mean, like I said, education is our passion. So we have lots of free resources. If you go to Gate Happens Instagram page or our YouTube channel.
Steven Sashen
To be clear. I know this sounds silly.
Jen Perez
G A I T. Uhhuh. Yep, you got it. So yeah, not Gate like open and shut, but gate like how you walk. So yeah, so Gate Happens is. It is our company name, but you can check us out on Instagram or YouTube for lots of free resources. But we also have online courses for everything from bunions to just making your feet stronger. We do have virtual consultations, so we have a team of clinicians that do one on one appointments and create like curated individualized plans. If you do have something getting in the way of doing what you love. And then I do have a practice in person with my husband, kinetic chiropractic in Lafayette, Colorado. If you’re local or want to travel in, we’d love to have you. But yeah, I would say gatehappens.com or gatehappens socials for all the things is the best way to reach us.
Steven Sashen
Well, I hope people do take advantage of that because, you know, there are more and more people trying to be helpful in this way. And, you know, you two are really at the top of that. Whatever thing you want to use for a metaphor for being on the top of. I can’t think of one at the moment.
Jen Perez
Let’s. Let’s go with building rather than pyramid.
Steven Sashen
Okay. Yeah, there we go. Oh, I like build. Building’s okay. I don’t know.
Jen Perez
Because there’s other people.
Steven Sashen
Well, no, there are other. Well, there’s always other people, but that’s fair. I’m not saying there’s only one person at the top. I mean, the summit is not. Is not a peak. It’s got. There’s flat. A bunch of people can hang out up there.
Jen Perez
Yeah, that’s what I was going for.
Steven Sashen
Okay. Yeah, we’ll figure we’re at the rooftop bar.
Jen Perez
That’s where you’ll find us, is the rooftop bar.
Steven Sashen
Rooftop bar to the top of a mesa. How’s that?
Jen Perez
Perfect.
Steven Sashen
There we go. Anyway, everybody else, thank you so much for being part of this. Once again, go over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, by the way, you don’t need to join anything. There’s no secret handshake. There’s no money involved. We don’t do a special dance every morning, which would be really fun if we did, though. And that’s where you can find all the previous episodes, of which there are quite a few with wonderful people like Jen and with Find us on social media and other places to find the podcast if you don’t like the one where you already found it. And of course, if you have any requests, any suggestions, anyone that you want to be on, have on the show or anything that. Where you want to get in touch with me, you can drop me an [email protected] and most importantly, between now and wherever else, go out, have fun, and live life feet first.