Nike says this new “brain-first” shoe can unlock focus and performance but does the science hold up, or is it just brilliant marketing?
In this episode of the The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Courtney Conley, Jay Dicharry, Dr. Irene Davis, and Dr. Emily Splichal who break down Nike’s new sensory-focused shoe and the bold claims behind its “mind tech,” from two-point discrimination to “amplifying” what your feet feel. The conversation challenges whether thick cushioning and widely spaced pods can truly enhance sensory input — and why novelty and instability can be mistaken for real performance gains. You’ll also hear the bigger takeaway: how to think about foot strength, sensation, and movement so you’re not buying a shortcut that quietly makes you weaker.
Key Takeaways:
→ How Nike’s two-point discrimination explanation doesn’t match the large, spaced pods on the shoes.
→ How Nike’s design appears to ignore the toes, which is a major sensory area.
→ Why the thick, soft cushioning may mute sensation, contradicting Nike’s claim.
→ Why claiming a shoe has both barefoot benefits and more protection is misleading.
→ How Nike’s creation of a “minimalist shoe” sparks mainstream awareness of foot sensory science and education.
Courtney Conley is a chiropractic physician specializing in foot and gait mechanics. She holds a B.A. in Kinesiology from the University of Maryland, as well as a B.A. in Human Biology in addition to a Doctorate in Chiropractic Medicine from the National University of Health Sciences.
Jay Dicharry is one of America’s leading physical therapists and a board-certified Sports Clinical Specialist. Dicharry’s REP Lab is a national destination for elite athletes because he diagnoses and rebuilds injured endurance athletes.
Dr. Irene Davis is the founding Director of the Spaulding National Running Center, Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Harvard Medical School. Dr. Davis received her Bachelor of Science in Exercise Science from the University of Massachusetts, and in Physical Therapy from the University of Florida.
Dr. Emily Splichal, Functional Podiatrist and Human Movement Specialist, is the Founder of EBFA Global, Creator of the Barefoot Training Specialist® Certification, Author of Barefoot Strong and CEO/Founder of Naboso Technology.
Connect With Courney:
Website: https://gaithappens.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gaithappens/
Connect with Jay:
Website: https://anathletesbody.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaydicharry/
Connect with Irene:
Website: https://www.irenedavisbooks.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/irene-davis-2904158/
Connect with Emily:
Website: https://www.naboso.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/naboso_technology/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nabosotechnology
Connect with Steven:
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Episode Transcript
Steven Sashen
One more for the road. Nike recently announced two new game changing products and we’re going to see if that’s a good game or a bad game. We have some special guests. We’re going to chat about this. Before we even introduce those. Let me just show you what we’re talking about. These are the two new Nike products. The first is the Nike Mind project and here’s what that looks like. I’ll show you more about it in a second. And then there’s also the Nike Amplify project and we’ll be talking about that as well. So. But let’s first see who’s joining us for this conversation. So I’m going to pick people in no particular order to introduce himself only because this is how it’s showing up on my screen and pardon the weird lighting that I have in my office. Courtney, would you tell people who you are and what you do?
Courtney Conley
Sure. My name is Courtney Conley. I am the founder of Gait Happens. So we are an education company on educating all things foot health.
Steven Sashen
That’ll work. And Irene Davis, you’re next.
Dr. Irene Davis
Hi Irene Davis. And I was the founding director of the Spalding National Running center up at Harvard Medical School. I’ve recently moved down to the University of South Florida where I’m a professor in the school of Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation Sciences in the Morsani College of Medicine, usf.
Steven Sashen
I just think the idea of moving from Harvard to Florida is so brilliant. Having spent one horrible week in Cambridge in February and wanted to shoot myself. So good on you. Jay Dicharry, you are next.
Jay Dicharry
Hi everybody, my name is Jay Dicharry. I’m a physical therapist, author, founder of Mobile Board and I’m part of the faculty here at Oregon State University in the PT program. And yeah, trying to get better information out to help you get better information to do all the things that helps you hit your goals.
Steven Sashen
Thank you. And you can’t see her on screen. I don’t know why, but Emily Splichal, tell people who you are.
Dr. Emily Splichal
Hi there. My name is Dr. Spickle, functional podiatrist, human movement specialist, educator on barefoot science and foot to core. I’m also the founder and CEO of Naboso, which is a sensory based product line that we use to stimulate the nerves in the bottom of the feet to support movement longevity that may be.
Steven Sashen
Appropriate for what we’re going to talk about. So let’s dive into the Nike Mind Project and start there. And just to give people a taste of what we’re talking about, I’m going to screen Share again and show what happens when you go to nike.com/mind. And so this is the main image that you’re going to see this video floating around and you can see it’s a shoe with these little balls in it that kind of move when you step on them. I’m going to scroll down. It’s a mind altering shoe. Activate your senses to enhance your pre game routine. And this is my. Well, we’re going to come back to this line here but I’m just going to highlight it now. Other shoes block sensation. Nike Mind technology amplifies. It works by engaging the sensory areas of your brain via the thousands of mechanoreceptors underfoot. And it’s a new way of connecting your body and brain. For your biggest moments. Engage your senses with the Nike Mine. It’ll help you get out of your head, connect with your surroundings and stay more present in the moment. I’m going to cut to another page to show you my favorite line though. These are the first shoes designed from the brain down, not the ground up. And there’s a line somewhere. I’m not sure if it’s in here. The idea is, well here these products are designed to have these 22 bright orange foam nodes designed to move when the wearer walks or runs. And, and this sends stimulation to the brain and improves concentration. There is a little more to it. There’s a line somewhere. I can’t remember where. They say that what they did is they figured out where to put those 22 little nodes based on what is providing the most stimulation to the brain. Where to begin. My God, I could jump in on this forever. But I’m going to let someone else take the first shot at it. Oh Donald, you know, just. And here. Don’t make me pick someone is what I was going to say.
Dr. Irene Davis
I was going to say, I think, I think Dr. Spico should be the first to go because of her sort of focus on this in this area.
Dr. Emily Splichal
Yeah, no, absolutely. Well one, the first thing that I would think about is the specificity of mechanoception is two point discrimination and then you have skin stretch and you have vibration.
Steven Sashen
Well, so let me, let me pause because they do mention somewhere in one of these articles that this is all about, oh here, wait, I’m going to back this up. I did find that quote and since you’re not on screen I’ll put this up and maybe I’ll scroll around as we do it. So let me go back to sharing and using sensory science. We mapped where the Feet are most sensitive. What’s called two point discrimination threshold and place the nodes accordingly. Um, so define what two point discrimination is and any thoughts you have about the placement of these 22 little soccer balls.
Dr. Emily Splichal
Yes. So that is definitely not two point discrimination. Two, two point discrimination through the Merkel disc, the SA1 Merkel disc in the bottom of the feet, the acuity is around 1 millimeter. So to be this large and that space is really not two point discrimination. It’s about. It’s like braille. So the acuity and the finite stimulus that your foot is actually looking for mirrors that of braille. That is why if anyone looks at the Naboso products, which we have a patent around, our texture is based around a 2 millimeter difference between these pyramid peaks. It has to be subtle and has to be finite for you to actually stimulate that.
Steven Sashen
You know, you give me a fun memory of when we were designing our first sandal and on the footbed, we had a very, very, very fine texture. And people put this thing on their foot and it’s like, oh, this is really annoying because they were so sensitive. Now keep in mind, actually you can’t see it from the video of the product, but those little balls, they kind of move in two and a half dimensions. So it’s not just straight up and down. If you press on them angle, that does a little something. But the part that cracks me up, starting with is there’s a whole lot of space in between those balls. So there’s a whole lot of information that’s not going anywhere and then wheeling up another. I want to see if I can get this other image that kind of cracks me up just about the discrimination component of things. And I’m looking for a better version of this picture. I’m looking at. Oh, open image in new tab. Let’s see if that works. This is. It’s one of my all time favorite words, the homunculus. And the homunculus is basically just a map of how your brain relates to your body. And we like to say that your feet, your soles, your feet have more sensory input than anywhere at your fingertips and your lips and mouth. But my favorite part about this is if you. And this is not a great image here, but if you kind of look at the way, the amount of information that is going to your feet, there’s more information going to your toes than the rest of your foot. But if we go back to the Nike mind image, there’s nothing happening at your toes. So they’re leaving out just a giant Chunk of where your brain is paying attention, by the way, if for people who are noticing the toes on your brain are very closely related to where your genitals are. So if you have a foot fetish, now you know why. Okay. Anyway. So. All right, Emily, thank you for that one. Who else wants to chime in on just this whole neurosensory thing? And starting from the brain down.
Dr. Irene Davis
Well, I. I would just like to ask the question. Show me the data. Right. So have they done research on the brain? Have they. Have they actually shown that their changes in the brain as a result of these shoes? I. I haven’t looked into it for far enough, but just wondering if anyone else here on the call has.
Steven Sashen
I’ve looked for the same and haven’t found it. I’ve just heard the comments that, you know, again, it’s the thing that stimulated the most brain activity. That’s where they decided to put these things, which seems improbable at best, especially again, considering how little of the sole of the foot those things are actually covering.
Dr. Irene Davis
Yeah, I mean, if they, if they, if they actually stimulated those parts of the foot and looked at brain activity, that’s different than having someone wear the shoe and looking at the brain activity.
Steven Sashen
Right.
Dr. Irene Davis
Completely different. So I don’t know whether they’ve actually looked at brain activity with a shoe because it could be doing absolutely nothing.
Steven Sashen
Well, you know, there’s the other component, which is that the shoe is pretty thick, and so you’re not getting a whole lot of foot motion. So that’s going to affect what is or isn’t happening Again. And even more than whatever they might have done for looking at actual brain activity is how are they met or what was the person doing wearing the shoe while they were measuring that? Were they just literally standing on some unpleasant surface? Were they walking across something? I mean, there’s a line, I’ve got to find it again. I’m going to look for something while anyone else chimes in.
Jay Dicharry
Steve, I just say this. I mean, you know, if we can just not even talk about the shoe for a second. Like, whenever you’re trying to do anything to help a patient learn a new skill, we want to set them up in an environment for success. Right. That environment we look at deals with what they feel from a amount of sensory standpoint to sensation, deals with what we have going on. Distracting the brain. Right. Challenging the limbs. So we try and kind of meet the patient where they are. Right. And give them the best environment to succeed. And so, you know, when you look at, you know, people love to look at F1 these days, right? Like, you know, would you rather drive an F1 car down a track at 180 miles an hour or drive your grandpa’s Buick, Right? Like your grandpa’s Buick was very wobbly and unstable. Couldn’t feel very much. Couldn’t handle very well because you can’t feel what’s happening at the wheels. You’re probably not going to, you know, drive very well. Well, same thing. When you look at. If I want to improve some aspect of the way you move, I’m looking at giving you as much contact as possible, enough surface discrimination as possible, and really helping you be environment to suc. So that’s the definitions that we’ve had for sort of in the guiding principles we’ve had operating around human motor control for centuries, right. So, you know, now I’m going to ask, you know, what is the reason then to do what? Take away sensory input by putting people on soft sensory foam. We’re jacking them up off the ground. We’re muting sensation. We’re adding rockers around the ankle and the forefoot which change what happens biomechanically, you know, and look like these points aren’t anatomically designed. When I look at them, I’m like, oh, this is easy for their, you know, manufacturing process to stamp these pods in certain locations. They don’t correspond in any way to joint structure of the body. So, you know, I’m looking at the data. Yeah, let’s see some data. Because what you just did doesn’t basically uphold any truth and validity about how we look at motor learning and better environment for. For improving control.
Steven Sashen
So, in short, you can’t wait to get a pair. Did I get that right? While you’re saying that, I found a line that I wanted to highlight that cracks me up. In particular, I’m going to do this in reverse order. Well, I’ll do the whole thing. I’ll read it. For those of you who aren’t watching, Nike argues the mind range of footwear will give athletes many of this is a key line. Many of the benefits of being barefoot, but with much greater protection. So violating everything you were just saying about getting sensory input. And then there’s a quote. Barefoot gives you sensation but not protected support. Says one of the people from Nike. Nike mind delivers both. It reawakens your natural connection to the ground while still protecting the foot. It’s like being grounded and cushioned at the same time. Now, I’m not going to make this a commercial, but look behind me. I mean, what a shock that someone came up with this idea of letting your foot, you know, feel the ground and be protected at the same time. I wish we had come up with something like 16 years ago. I don’t know, some sort of flexible sandal to let your whole foot safely feel the ground. But, I mean, that would just be crazy. So. Oh. And then if we took that idea and turned it into a whole bunch of things that give you the right amount of protection for the activities you’re doing with support for things like. I mean, that would have been crazy if someone had come up with those ideas. But I’m not gonna. Not gonna make this a commercial. Courtney, do you wanna add anything to where we landed?
Courtney Conley
I’m always thinking about these things from a patient perspective. And when I see these types of products come out, I always think about what would. When my patients put them on their feet, what is going to happen? And to piggyback off what Jay was saying, all that cushion and stack height in the design of the shoe is kind of contradicting what they’re saying with, we want to increase sensory input, and we want to try to make this a better environment for the patient. But then they’re actually complicating things by making this. On this soft, squishy foam. So I’m imagining my patients starting to walk with this thing, and I’m. And I just don’t see how that’s going to go well for them.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. I want to come back to a line that I skipped over very briefly when we first looked at this, which is perhaps my favorite other shoes. Block sensation. Yeah. All of your other shoes and every other shoe made by any company that isn’t doing something. And I’m using big air quotes around the phrase barefoot, because anything that gets in between your foot and the ground is minimizing sensation to a certain amount. Undeniably. We would never argue otherwise. But, you know, our goal, like we say, barefoot is best, and when that’s not appropriate, you know, that’s why we’re here. And we want you to be as close to barefoot as you can. But I love this thing. Other shoes block sensation. What are you saying about the rest of your brand?
Dr. Irene Davis
Yeah, I was going to make the same point that, you know, they’re soft and squishy, but so are all their other new innovation, innovative shoes. Right. It’s. This is what it’s all about, is being soft and squishy.
Steven Sashen
We took soft and squishy and made it so you could feel a Little bit of something.
Dr. Irene Davis
And we don’t even know if you can feel a little bit of something. Have you put them on? Just has. Has anyone got their hands on a pair?
Steven Sashen
Not yet. I did watch a video of someone and he made a comment, it feels like I’m getting a little bit of a foot massage when I’m walking. Which I thought made sense. I don’t know how much because it didn’t look like I have a video somewhere. The amount of indentation, or for lack of a better. Because I can’t think of a better word at the footbed didn’t seem like very much. But it’s one of these things that I know from testing many, many products that over time you tend to acclimate to things anyway and you just stop noticing them. So what’s happening beyond that initial hit of like, oh, I can feel something that I wasn’t feeling before. Back to the whole brain thing and their pitch that what they’re promising is things like get out of your head, connect to your surroundings. I like connect to your surroundings in particular because the actual name of our corporate entity at Xero Shoes, our actual company name is feel the world. So they just did connect with your surroundings instead of taking the line of mind and then be more present in the moment. Again, this is not news to me. We hear from people when they are putting up. I’m not trying to make this commercial, I swear to God. But, you know, walk barefoot, just do it that way and see what happens with your presence in the moment. Because you’re suddenly getting information in your brain that you weren’t getting before stimulation. You weren’t getting before. Connect with your surroundings. How can you not when you’re getting this information? So again, the idea that they’re. I mean, this is what we’ve known for thousands of years. Your brain is connected to your feet with. What are these things called? I never get the word right. Is it nerves? Is that the. That the word.
Dr. Emily Splichal
If I can share. Something else that it makes me think of though, is that when you’re doing a new stimulus in an unstable. This is. Jay made me think of this like, let’s say I want to stand on a physio ball as an example. I will be forced to be more present because it’s unstable. So this kind of reminds me of like shape ups, flip flops, like things that used to push the individual to get higher. EMG activation. And then of course that was swayed in a different way or marketed different. So that’s. That’s also something that may be fun in a way for marketing, but of course there’s going to be more brain activation because you’re on an unstable surface.
Steven Sashen
Well, and what you just said makes me wonder. When Nike came out with the self lacing shoe, the back to the future shoe, it was really just a marketing play. I don’t know if they’re expecting this to sell a bajillion pairs or if it’s going to come and go in a season or, or what. It is one of those things that’s crazy enough looking that it could sell a bunch just because of that. And again, you know, I, I guess I should back up. I am so happy that they’re doing this because what they’re basically doing is validating what we’ve been saying for the last 16 years. So, and which makes me not nervous. People used to say to me what would happen if a big company started, you know, doing what you’re doing? I’d say then we won. We’re not here to become the next fill in the blank giant company. We’re here to change the world by giving people the reminding people and giving the opportunity to use their feet the way they’re meant to be used. So if this is the gateway to opening up this conversation about natural movement, I’m all for it. We can create a lot of content about the gap between what this thing is doing, high, inflexible, etc. And what any of the companies that are doing with natural movies. In fact, it just reminds me of what was happening in 2010 when in 2009 all the major footwear brands were saying this whole barefoot thing is complete bullshit. And by the end of 2010, they were coming out with, quote, minimalist shoes and using the same language that we were using for products that weren’t delivering the same benefits. But Irene, you know more about that because you were researching those.
Dr. Irene Davis
Well, I, the thing I worry about, Steven, I think you’re right, but people who are not educated in this area are going to jump to those shoes because they’re high tech, they’re cool, they’re new and they’re going to think that that’s the way to get the sensory input as opposed to, and they’re whole lot easier to adapt to, especially for running. Right. Because minimal shoes take some time. You know, you’ve got to build the capacity. And so I worry a little bit. I’m not happy about it. I, I just think that it, they’re just. What worries me is that it just seems like they really. And, and this, I’ll talk about this. The amplify too. They don’t really care about the sport of running. All they care about is marketing. Yeah, well, you know, I’m starting to really feel that way because the, the things that they’re doing are counterintuitive when you think like everyone’s saying about sensory input and you want to be as close to the ground as possible. So I do worry a little bit about how people might jump to it.
Steven Sashen
In 2010 I remember having arguments with physicians who were saying, oh, we’re seeing more patients ever from these people who are getting into barefoot running. And I’d say to them, when a patient came in to see you, did you actually ask if they were in bare feet? And they go, what do you mean? I go, well, were they running in bare feet or were they running in a pair of shoes that were sold as a barefoot shoe? Because in 2010 there were, there was actually only one, maybe one and a half truly quote barefoot shoes. And almost nobody was wearing those. I mean we were making sandals and those people weren’t going to doctors.
Dr. Irene Davis
But you know what, sorry to interrupt, but there was a problem in the beginning because if you look at some of the studies that, that, that talked about the injuries that were happening with the minimal shoes and some of them were the five fingers, it was, I mean they had no transition period. They jumped right to running. So I think the biggest problem there was that people didn’t real that these shoes are not just regular shoes and you have to build the capacity. Just like you wouldn’t go to the gym, lift 100 pounds the first time. I think that was the bigger problem with that.
Steven Sashen
Well, there was, there was another problem which was a statistical problem is let’s say for the sake of argument, people were getting injured. What rate were they getting injured at and how does that compare to the injury rates in regular shoes? And I all I can say anecdotally from the last 16 years is that we don’t hear from. Well, another page on the Nike website talks about a study they did back. I think they did the study in 2019 and it’s never been published. But a number of people on this call, including me, have copies of it where they their best selling running shoe injured 30.3% of the people wearing it in a 12 week half marathon training program. And a new shoe only injured 14 and a half percent. And the way this was publicized all around the world was new Nike shoe reduces injury rates by 52%. But my God, if we injured 14 and a half to 30% of the people wearing our shoes in 12 months, I’d be in jail right now, you know. And that’s the best you can do after 50 years of R and D? Something is very wrong with this picture. So the comparisons were never really made. And to your point, the trans. No, actually, it’s another thing that I would ask people when they said that running barefoot or minimal shoes causes injuries. Say, we’re not talking about footwear, we’re talking about form. Were you doing gait analysis of these people that you were looking at? I remember going to the lab at the University of Colorado and there was a whole article about this whole barefoot running thing because there was a researcher there, Dr. Roger Crom, who was doing research sponsored by Nike. And one of the picture, or the picture with one of these articles was someone running in bare feet, massively over striding and plantar flexing, pointing their toes. And if they’re actually running like that, they’re going to get a stress fracture. I mean, undeniably. So, you know, just the confusion about what this whole thing is or to your point, Irene, every time I see a study now that is a. Especially if it’s a quote, anti barefoot study, they’ll usually say something like, we gave the subjects time to acclimate to running barefoot by spending five minutes on a treadmill or something equally ridiculous. Or sorry, my last thought, I got too many. One of the first big conferences about barefoot running here in Boulder. A lot of pts were saying, well, it could take you five years to actually acclimate to doing this. And they were going on and on and on, just saying things that sounded completely absurd to me. And I finally raised my hand and said, how many people in this room other than me have run at least a mile in bare feet on a road on concrete? And no other hands went up. I said, you’re just making this up. You have no research yet. And now you’re just, you’re just, I mean, literally pulling out of your butt mostly to keep your own jobs. So it. Anyway, it’s. We’re just reliving. Literally. I just feel like we’ve gone back in time 16 years. It’s totally crazy. Before we move to amplify anybody else on anything else about mind.
Jay Dicharry
Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess I’d piggyback. It’s a Myrene said too. It’s like, you know, I look at. I think all of us in this call can kind of weed through some things a little bit and call bs.
Steven Sashen
And I think we live in a.
Jay Dicharry
World where people want things to be simple, right? And let’s just go back to this. If you’re calling this shoe the mind, right, you’re talking about some aspect of neuro behavior, right? How does my brain respond to sensory and how does it respond to output, right? And like I’m gonna kind of hope it pulls things together. What we’re saying is the environment that this shoe is putting you in is making it harder for you to feel. And biomechanically, it’s making harder for you to actually work, right? Those squishy massive marshmallows and that rocker underneath, pods or no pods. Right. Is not the way your foot’s designed to work. So again, if you’re back to what is happening at the mind, I mean man, PR firm, kudos to calling this right. But like you, you literally took the mind out of it. Okay. You’re putting people in position where it might be novel, might be different, right? But it’s not better. Right? And again, this is not me debating a shoe. This is basic debating like you know, undergrad, you know, understood theories of motor control and neuroscience and how we actually learn. And I think that, you know, if we’re going to give people better information how this happens, like let’s like you should see all those pieces of the puzzle being integrated, not phased out.
Steven Sashen
Well, given your point that this is making it harder, let’s move to Amplify, which is all about making it easier. So here’s. I’ll pull up a couple of things about amplify. So you can see it’s a little exoskeleton that is tied into a shoe. You can wear the shoe without the motor control part, but here’s what it says. Also unveiled by Nike prototype design. It is prototype. They don’t have a time for when they’re going to release this and I don’t know if they will or not. Who knows? A motorized exoskeleton like device that attaches to the lower leg provides power boost for running or walking by helping. I love this line. By helping to lift the wearer’s heel. Let’s put a bookmark there and come back to that. Let me find another thing about Amplify. The world’s first powered footwear system for running and walking. Designed to have help everyday athletes. And anyone who moves as an athlete is what they say, go a little farther, a little faster and farther, all with less effort. Let’s put a bookmark on that. Engineered to augment lower leg and Ankle movement Project Amplify system breaks the perception of possibility. Great line. By providing an unparalleled boost to anyone who wants to move, creating a new future for running, jogging and walking. I love how they separate running and jogging. Blah blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m just going to leave it there actually. Built on motion algorithms informed by the Nike Sports Research Lab, the first generation footwear system is comprised of a lightweight, powerful motor drive belt and rechargeable cuff battery that seamlessly integrate with a carbon fiber plated running shoe that can be worn with or without the robotics system. This makes it easier for everyday athletes to run, walk or run more often for longer amounts of time while having more fun adding movement to their lives, extending their walking commute or helping them to enjoy the run for another mile or two. I think that’s a fine place to pause and let anyone jump in accordingly. It looks like you’re chomping at the bit.
Courtney Conley
I mean I just, when I saw that I was just kind of in, in a state of shock about the whole thing. I mean there are so many things there that just are not for, for are not going to work for me. I mean, if we take it down to the very simple statement of if you don’t use it, you’re going to lose it. A product like that that is basically, I don’t even know how that would work, but is going to provide everything for the patient that the person cannot do themselves. I just don’t understand anything about that.
Steven Sashen
Well, how it works. I’ve watched a video and if you look closely, I mean this line of it lifts your heel. That’s of course not biomechanically possible. It’s just basically it takes a little while to pay attention to how you’re walking or running. And then once it gets enough info, then you can continue doing whichever activity that is. And in the gait cycle, basically once you’re, once you get to mid stance, it’s just plantar flexing your foot, but it’s just, you know, articulating the ankle.
Courtney Conley
I think that, you know, when they talk about that product, if you, if they’re saying this is for everyone. Now when I look at that, I’m like, that could have implications for a compromised population. You know, if there was absolutely, you know, someone that had trauma or fusion or something that could facilitate their gate.
Steven Sashen
Well, hold, hold that thought.
Jay Dicharry
Conversation, hold that thought.
Steven Sashen
I wonder, and I think it’s probably true, but the way that the videos that I’ve seen about the product, it’s basically let’s watch you walk and then we’re going to add something to that. But for people who are severely compromised, they’re having a hard time walking to begin with. So how much is it going to add to what they’re already doing? That’s problematic. But I do think that there’s some, there’s going to be some application to be more helpful for people who have limited mobility to begin with. So the AI will not be the thing learning and then amplifying a little bit. It’s going to be more augmentation, which look, I’m having flashbacks to when I got back into sprinting and kept pulling calf muscles because I got a screwed up spine. And I would wear a pair of MBT shoes, the big thick rocker bottom shoes, because I didn’t have to use my calves while I was healing. So in that context, you know, valuable. But the everyday athlete part.
Dr. Irene Davis
Yeah, I don’t think they can actually. I mean, I, I, I had the same feeling about. This would be great for someone who maybe had a stroke or, you know, a mild stroke. But I’ve had runners who want to run and they had a mild stroke and they, and they didn’t have the same function on the other foot. But then it becomes a medical and that’s, that’s opens up a whole new can of worms. So I don’t think they’re going down that path. I think advertising this as something for runners tells me that they don’t care about the sport. They don’t care about the sport and that hurts. I’m really upset about that. That upset me more than anything. And I’ve always hung on to the fact that maybe they do, maybe they do, but I don’t think they do to create a shoe that, that just like you said it, you, if you don’t use it, you lose it. A shoe that doesn’t allow normal motion. There’s no way, when you’ve got an articulated joint at that, wherever it puts it, that your foot is going to move across all the joints. The 26 articulations, 26 bones, 30, 32 articulations, whatever it is in your foot, six degrees of freedom. You know, your foot can’t move that way. It’s bad enough in a regular running shoe, let alone a shoe that’s basically an orthotic brace.
Steven Sashen
Well, the only way this shoe can work is if it’s completely stiff. I mean, there’s no other way that you could actually have this work mechanically. And so, yeah, it’s just, yes, you can Actually, my version is. They, they. I can’t remember where I saw it, but something about, you know, making it easier. Well, the whole value of exercise is that it’s not easier.
Dr. Irene Davis
An E bike for the, for the runners, what they called it, remember?
Steven Sashen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Irene Davis
That was their, their, their tagline.
Steven Sashen
I was thinking about that this morning as I watched a couple kids going to school on E bikes. And I was thinking, God, I hope there’s some parents. If there was ever going to be a place where there would be parents who would not let their kids ride an E bike, it’s Boulder, Colorado, where it would be like, no, you need to be healthy. Not just riding a glorified or a dumbed down motorcycle. But that’s what, you know, I mean, all the kids are doing that and I, I worry about that.
Jay Dicharry
You know, for decades I’ve been having this quote, two quotes. I always say, you can’t fire a cannon from a canoe and you can’t put a jet engine on a PA airplane, right? Like, those things don’t work. So now we’ve got a new shoe. And again, runners have shown they’re open to new stuff. I mean, look what’s in the wall of your retailer now compared to what was five years ago, right? So it’s like we’re in the Wild West. Mad science, you know, time. So, you know, people.
Steven Sashen
Wait, hold on, hold on, Jay, wait, I got to clarify. They’re open to something new if they think it’s going to make it easier, right? Better, right?
Dr. Irene Davis
And money make more money.
Jay Dicharry
Make money. Yeah, but so now you’ve got this environment where, you know, things again are more unstable, right? And now you’re going to add like an engine to this. It’s like this is a recipe for disaster. I mean, look, it’s like, I know we live in a world, people want things sexy and clean and lovely, but, you know, let me tell you about my life, right? Last week I got a call from, from a coach at a D1 school who’s like, hey, we’ve resisted super shoes for, you know, as long as you possibly can. The kids are chomping at the bit. We finally took the, took the leap and guess what? Half a team got hurt, right? Like so. So I think most people don’t understand. This is a totally different environment. You’d never jump from one thing to something totally different. And that’s what we’re doing with this wild west aspect of shoe design. And I think that when you look at what’s happening, what are we doing we don’t know. Right. Like you as a consumer are operating off of marketing company. Not, not science. Right. Not understanding biomechanics. And so, you know, we’re happy to try and help explain this, but it’s tough when we sit here on a zoom call and some of my other companies got, you know, $5 billion in marketing budget to try and sway you. So, you know, pay attention to reality, folks. You know, I want the best for you, but what I don’t want is my phone to keep bringing when we keep making poor decisions.
Steven Sashen
I love that.
Dr. Irene Davis
My favorite, my favorite saying is the closer we are to the way that we evolve to move, the less our risk for injury. And that applies to everything, whether it’s prolonged sitting or walking or whatever. And, and so the farther we get away from the way that we evolve to move, the greater the risk for injuries. So to your point, Jay, there was that, that study that came out from Adam 10:40, the case series on five navicular stress fractures we just haven’t seen yet. I’ve seen some really ugly videos of people running in those shoes. In those, those just the super shoes themselves. I mean, I was at the Boston Marathon. I worked the medical tent and I, I take a break every now and then because I see very, very ill people in the heat section. So I have to come out and see why people are raising their hand time. And almost every single person was in shoes like this, and almost every one of them was excessively everting, excessively pronating because they were exhausted because, because of that higher midsole. It increases the moment arm of that lateral ground reaction force, which puts you into. Increases the eversion moment. So, you know, for people listening, it’s. It basically increases your tendency to pronate. And so the muscle that controls it has to work really hard. By the end of the race, they couldn’t do it.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Dr. Irene Davis
And they were all pronating. So I just think that we haven’t yet seen the consequences of these shoes, let alone the Nike Amplify or the Mind.
Steven Sashen
I, I would argue that we have seen them, but we’re not hearing about it the way we should.
Dr. Irene Davis
We haven’t, we haven’t reported on it. We have. Don’t have it in the literature.
Steven Sashen
Right, right. And you know, just to be clear about two things that you said for people listening. One, pronation not bad. Hyperpranation or uncontrolled pronation, bad. And the, the way we evolve to move, some people will mishear that and think, well, but we didn’t evolve to run barefoot on concrete. And I go, well, first of all, go to the place where we evolved, and that ground is just like concrete with a bunch of crap sticking out of it. And secondly, even if we didn’t evolve to run on concrete for, you know, 26 miles, that doesn’t mean we can’t. We may we have evolved in a certain place, but that doesn’t mean we’re not able to. To supersede that. As I like to say, we didn’t evolve to do standing backflips. If you want, I can do one right now. So it’s. There’s just sort of an inverse naturalistic fallacy that people like to apply to that. But yeah, I mean, the other line of, like, you know, it’ll help you run longer. Well, here’s a crazy question. Who really wants to run longer? Yeah, I mean, I don’t think that’s the goal that people have. It’s like, unless they’re training for a marathon, and you won’t be able to wear these things when you’re training or when you’re actually racing. So if you’re wearing these things in training and arguably getting weaker because you’re having something take over the function of the muscles, ligaments and tendons, what’s going to happen when you go to race? And I mean, my God. And, you know, Jay and I talked about this back to super shoes. As a former All American gymnast, the first time I saw any one of those, I went, oh, any foam is tuned to a weight and speed. If you’re not that weight running at that speed, then they’re going to mess you up. They’re going to be out of sync with your natural body’s rhythm, and you’ll get messed up. End of story. And, you know, running shoe companies love to use the term energy return. Well, there’s no such thing. There’s only energy suck. And even the guys from Adidas, when they talked about the boost foam, it’s like we’re just trying to reduce the amount of energy we’re sucking out of the system, which, again, fine, if you’re that mass at that speed, speed, and otherwise, it’s just totally out of whack.
Dr. Irene Davis
It’s same with the carbon plates, right? Those are tuned a certain way.
Steven Sashen
It’s worse for the carbon plates.
Dr. Emily Splichal
I know.
Steven Sashen
Because people think the carbon plate is actually doing something other than just being structurally there. This is my favorite thing. People have to go to footwear events where the people selling that foam, they call it what the industry calls it which is super critical foam, which is a term that came out of, of nuclear physics, supercritical is about to explode at any time. So if it weren’t for having the carbon fiber, that stuff would just shear and fall apart instantly. But they think it’s acting like a spring or a lever. There are well known people who will remain nameless unless one of you wants to mention this person’s name, who is viewed as a footwear expert who has made both of those claims that the carbon fiber is a spring or a lever. It’s like that’s not how physics works. Anything else? Other other amplify thoughts?
Dr. Emily Splichal
I’ll share a couple of thoughts that just kind of echo off of what everyone said. I mean this is obviously just prosthetics that they put into consumer space. And it’s really looking at the ankle as a hinge, which the ankle is not a hinge. There are spirals in the foot and if you take away those spirals, which is what Irene was saying, you try to push someone to move and the way that we are not designed to move, you will find injuries. So plus it’s probably going to be crazy expensive. I hope this was just a demonstration to show what they would concept and it actually never comes to market just to essentially they’re flashing their feathers a little bit. But yeah, I just see compensatory injuries happening because the ankle is not a hinge.
Steven Sashen
You know, I’m also looking, I just, I want to see if this is a video. I just pulled this up. I’m not going to show the video, but I want to show you a pic. Look at the shoe that they’re putting it on. Look at the, look at the design of that shoe. That is, I mean, holy smokes. Talk about squeezing your toes and reducing blood flow and all the other problems that that design creates or can create. That is freaking me out. And of course, you know, this massive toe spring, which people can see it. So that’s the part where. Well actually, you know, it doesn’t look like they did toe spring. It looks like this smart thing of just reducing all the foam. But this is all designed to deal with the fact that your foot is not moving. Here’s the things that we built in because your foot’s not moving to try to allow you to move at all, but certainly non optimally.
Courtney Conley
I mean, Steven, I’m looking at all this and I’m thinking, you know.
Dr. Irene Davis
When.
Courtney Conley
You look at all the research that they bring to light, if we were to like try to find a positive in all of this, you know, especially with the mend.
Jay Dicharry
Right.
Courtney Conley
With the mind. The. They’re bringing the research to light, but it’s almost like they’re not taking it to fruition. They’re saying, hey, this is what we’re. We’re seeing. But then they’re not really explaining it as well. And that’s why I think these calls are so important, because the education behind all of this is so important. If Nike’s going to. We have a very large company that’s going to bring some of this research search to light. And I think it’s our job collectively to take that and really educate people and say, hey, this is where the. What they’re saying does make sense. But the way they’re, you know, implementing it is where the fault is. And I think that’s an opportunity for all of us to really further educate.
Steven Sashen
Well, that’s why we’re here. And I’m hoping that we can do much, much more of it. I mean, the product comes out January 8th, they say, so we have have from when we’re recording this, a little bit of time to try and create more content and be part of the conversation from very early on. Because the thing that I will say about the big footwear brands, and I say this with nothing but envy, I assure you, is their marketing teams are brilliant. They’re really, really good at telling stories that are simple. And because they’re simple and make sense to people, those stories get locked in. It’s just that they’re not true. And it takes a long time to get people out of that. I, you know, you know, I was going to say something that is not true. It doesn’t take long for people to snap out of the trance of marketing. It just takes getting people to think for themselves by doing something a little sideways. Like I say to people, all right, I have a dumb question for you, and I swear to God, it’s not a trick question. It’s a stupid question. So don’t try to overthink it. Just first answer that pops in your head, which is better, weaker or stronger? And people still argue. And they go, well, I said, no, no, don’t overthink it. Which is better for your body? Weaker or stronger? And they go stronger. I go, cool. So let’s talk about the thing you don’t want. Weaker. If I want to make this arm weaker, what do I do? They go, don’t use it. Yeah, if I put a cast on my arm and support the joint. Let’s come back to that. Word. It gets weaker over time. So you have, like we were saying, 26 bones, 33 joints in your. Your feet and ankles. What happens if you put them in a shoe that doesn’t let them move? Like putting a cast on your arm? And people go, oh. And so if you put an orthotic that doesn’t let a bunch of those things not move properly, what happens? They’re like, oh. I said, so when is getting weaker good for you? And they go, okay. So there’s a way of waking people up because we’re all smart enough to recognize reality, but a good story can over. Can often overrule our ability to recognize reality. So our job is to wake people up.
Jay Dicharry
Up.
Steven Sashen
Not. It’s not even educating. We’re not teaching them anything they don’t already know. It’s just reminding them at a fun time, at a talk with the former heavyweight world champion, Lennox Lewis. And at one point, you know, we’re having a great conversation about footwear. And he said, so what do your shoes do about support? I said, lennox, where’d you grow up? He goes, jamaica. I said, what’d you wear on your feet when you’re out playing until you’re about 15? He said, nothing. I said, what’d you do for support? He goes, I used my feet. Feet, you know, get a lot of fun. I also said to him, how do you not remember me? He said, when did we meet? I said, 30 years ago. You and I are the only two guys with long hair at this big ESPN conference.
Dr. Irene Davis
Is that true?
Steven Sashen
It was true. Well, I had a cable television show. It was actually. It was a big cable television thing. And he was there, and I went and said, hi. We Talked for, like 30 seconds. It was a long time ago.
Dr. Irene Davis
I mean, I’m sure you’re all aware that one study, which is brilliant, the protopa study that put healthy feet in orthotics for 12 weeks and had a 10 to 17 reduction in the size of the intrinsic foot muscles. So you think that’s just 12 weeks? How many people wear orthotics for only 12 weeks?
Steven Sashen
Yeah, and I mean, the thing that I always point out, and thank you for reminding me, I haven’t quoted that study in a while for some strange reason. But of course, you know, it does get asymptotic. You only get weak to a certain point. It doesn’t go to zero, but. But it gets bad. There’s no question about it. Oh, yeah, yeah. All right. Anything on either. Either one of these Incredible, Literally, I mean, the literal word, incredible. Ideas.
Dr. Irene Davis
The only thing I’m wondering about is who is going to jump on the bandwagon? What other shoe companies are going to start, you know, coming up with their own wacky shoes?
Steven Sashen
- It’s an interesting question. It took a couple years. Well, look, Hoka came out in around 2011. Ish, 2012. And it took. Took many years till people started copying that. And frankly, the first, I don’t know, five years of that business where they thought it was going to be a performance product and it just wasn’t working. What made it kick in was when elderly people started wearing it, which is, of course, the antithesis of what they should be doing. But that’s when it started to take off. And that’s between that and the development of the. The lighter supercritical foam, that’s when everyone kind of jumped on. And then it was. Was kind of the second wave where people were saying, hey, people are running faster in these. Which there’s reason might have nothing to do with the foam. Well, anyway, that’s a whole other conversation, but it took a while till. When you go to a footwear trade show, everything is at some giant thick something or other. So I don’t expect that people would do this right away. And if we’re lucky, and again, I’m not trying to make this a commercial for us, if we’re lucky, it’ll wake people up enough that what happens is those of us who are making footwear that’s actually supposed to let your foot bend and move and flex and feel and give you protection and just the right amount of support, that. That brings the awareness to that part of the market and is really helpful, rather than it turning into more crazy things. Fingers crossed. And not just for me. Literally, our only interest here is in getting people to be using their feet as naturally, as humanly possible, as often as possible. And if that’s where this goes and Nike becomes the number one leader in barefoot shoes, couldn’t be happier, because then I can retire. And I already did. You know, I did my job. Anybody, anything. Going once, going twice. Before I let you tell people how.
Dr. Emily Splichal
I would just say, like, concept awareness that people are like, oh, feet are sensory. And I know that you’ve done years of work pushing that, Stephen. We all have. But that’s a big thing. And then I stand so passionately behind mechanoception and the proper description and utilization of that stimuli. So I just want people to be interpreting and using that sensation appropriately.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, don’t, don’t bank on people using the words appropriately in the same way that people think proprioception means what your foot is feeling and not where your body is in space. I mean, language will do its thing. I mean, look, people still argue with me and they go barefoot shoes. That’s an oxymoron. It’s like I didn’t make up the phrase. Other people started using it. That’s how people find us. So language will do what it does. But, but I, I do share the same hope that it’s done well. So let’s go in reverse order for people who want to find out more about what any of you are doing. I’ll start with Emily and then we’ll go back around the other way.
Dr. Emily Splichal
Absolutely. So my functional podiatry practice is my name. So drmly splickel.com and then Navoso, which is a true mechanoceptive stimulation product line with two point discrimination is naboso.com nab o s o.com and we have over 40 products that stimulate the feet.
Steven Sashen
I love that you spelled naboso but not spliggle. So do you want to spell your name for people?
Dr. Emily Splichal
Sure. My Last name is S-P L I C-H-A L so-R Emily S P L I C-H-A-L.com or here’s an easy one. The functionalfootdoc.com on cool.
Steven Sashen
Thank you, Jay.
Jay Dicharry
Yeah Jay to Sher, founder of Mobo Board. You know while we somebody earlier today we walk and run forward but our foot moves in spirals and diagonals and so develop Mobo to try and improve the skill, coordination and feedback in your foot to build a good training environment like we talked about to try and help us succeed. So you can follow us on Mobo Mobo Board on Instagram and the website moard.com got lots of articles up there in the thought section so give it a check out.
Steven Sashen
And Mobo is easier than Splichal but nonetheless mo so Mobo board or what? Wait, what was the other one?
Jay Dicharry
I just mobo board.com There we go.
Steven Sashen
Mobo board.com It’s a very, very cool tool. Highly recommended. Irene.
Dr. Irene Davis
Okay, so I don’t really have any products but if you want to keep up with me on Twitter at at Irene S. Davis and just keep with up with us in the literature. We have articles coming out on minimal footwear, have an ongoing RCT that’s getting close to the end that Steven has helped us with by supporting us with the footwear. Looking at plantar fasciitis and looking at standard of care versus 180 degrees, which is removing all support and exercising the feet. So that should be coming out. I’d say well in the next year. The, the, the trial’s just about done and we have some other minimal footwear studies coming out that have to do with biomarkers etc.
Steven Sashen
So, yes, it pains me how long it takes for research to get done.
Dr. Irene Davis
It is, it’s.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, it’s a tough one. And back to you, Courtney.
Courtney Conley
Yes, my name is Courtney Conley, the founder of Gait Happens. So we have a bunch, we’re very passionate about bringing awareness to the foot. So we have a bunch of online courses on how to improve your foot strength, things like that. And then I think I interviewed most of you, but the book is launching May 5th of 2020 walk it is. We’re very excited about it. And you know the overarching theme, right, is to get people out and walking and being aware of this movement. But there is a lot of talk about footwear, the importance of foot strength, foot mobility. So I’m really excited to have the platform to bring all of what we are all saying here on, you know, hopefully a larger scale. We can really spread this message.
Steven Sashen
Someone had to do it and we’re all grateful that it’s you.
Dr. Emily Splichal
Thank you.
Steven Sashen
And so gatehappens.com for people. Yes, perfect. And I could have done this. You can just find everything about Xero Shoes at xeroshoes.com or if you’re in the EU or if you’re in the uk.co.uk or if you’re other places around the world, we can point you there as well. So everybody, thank you so much. We’ll probably do another one of these, like after the product comes, the products come out, assuming that they all do and we start hearing what’s bubbling up in the world in response, I think that’ll be an interesting time to check back in. So everyone else, until then, as I like to say, just go out, have fun and live life feet first.
Dr. Irene Davis
Bye bye.
Dr. Emily Splichal
Thank you.