What you put on your feet can quietly sabotage your technique or unlock a level of performance you didn’t know you had.
In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Denis Vasilev, MA, 11x Kettlebell World Champion, IKO Master Coach & Founder, who returns to break down the overlooked performance variable most lifters ignore: footwear. A multiple-time kettlebell sport champion and elite-level competitor, Denis recently won a competition with 85 reps in 10 minutes using double 32kg in the long cycle—an internationally ranked, top-tier result, especially at age 42. He explains why traditional weightlifting shoes can mask flaws, how minimalist footwear improves feedback and consistency, and what that means for strength, efficiency, and long-set performance.
Key Takeaways:
→ Better sensory input from the ground helps people self-correct their technique in real time.
→ Heel lift and rigid structure may mask mobility and timing issues rather than fix them.
→ Thick, rigid. Heels reduce feedback, tempting lifters to slam rather than time the movement.
→ Feeling stance changes immediately allows people to correct before they compound into fatigue and wasted energy.
→ Toe space matters more than people realize, but if they return to narrow shoes, the restriction becomes obvious.
Denis Vasilev is a globally recognized Kettlebell Sport athlete, coach, and educator with more than 25 years of experience in the discipline. He began his Kettlebell Sport journey at age 16 in 1999 and has become one of the most decorated athletes in the sport’s history. He has earned prestigious ranks, including Master of Sport International Class, and competed for the Russian National Kettlebell Sport Team from 2008 to 2015, performing at the highest professional level worldwide. Denis holds a Master’s Degree in Physical Education & Sport Pedagogy from Lesgaft National State University in St. Petersburg and has been coaching athletes since 2009. He is the founder of the International Kettlebell Organization (IKO) and the Kettlebell Sport World League. Additionally, Denis is the creator of BELLEVATOR, a premium line of Kettlebell Sport belts and apparel, and continues to lead and inspire the Kettlebell Sport community worldwide.
Connect With Denis:
Website: https://www.denisvasilevkettlebell.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/denisvasilevkettlebell/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DenisVasilevKettlebell
Connect with Steven:
Xero Shoes: https://xeroshoes.com/
X: https://x.com/XeroShoes
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/xeroshoes/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/xeroshoes
Episode Transcript:
Steven Sashen
If you go to the gym for any reason, whether you’re lifting weights or using kettlebells or, I mean, literally doing anything, what’s the best thing to put on your feet? Those things at the end of your legs? Well, we’re going to talk about that today with a very special guest who’s here for a second time. But before that, just welcome to the Movement Movement podcast. The podcast for people who like to know the truth about what it takes to, well, use your body naturally to run, to walk, to play, to hike, to do whatever you like to do enjoyably, efficiently and effectively. That’s what we’re here for. We’re going to break down the mythology, the propaganda, sometimes the lies you’ve been told. And this is all based on, well, let’s, you know, doing what’s natural. That’s why we call this the movement Movement. We’re creating a movement about natural movement. You can help, it’s easy. Just, you know, share this with your friends. If you like the podcast, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes, all the places you can find us on social media and if you didn’t like where you found the podcast to begin with, other places to find the podcast. I’m Stephen Sashin, the co founder of Xero Shoes and the host of the podcast. And I don’t even want to say anym about actually I’m going to say this. You know, if you like what we’re doing here, just give us a thumbs up or a like subscribe, hit the bell icon on YouTube. You know the drill. If you want to be part of the tribe and spread the word, just subscribe. So we are joined by Dennis Vasilevin. Dennis, we talked previously on an earlier podcast about what he was doing with kettlebells, which is really pretty amazing. And since then he’s done something also amazing. But he was very upset that we didn’t get to talk about the footwear and what he’s been exploring and discovering about footw, kettle bells and beyond. So first of all, Dennis, hello and welcome back. How are you doing?
Denis Vasilev
Thank you very much. I’m doing very well, thank you.
Steven Sashen
So tell people the incredible thing that you’ve done since we last spoke.
Denis Vasilev
I’ve won the one of the competitions with 85 reps of a double long cycle, 32 kilograms.
Steven Sashen
And so wait, I’m going to wait, I’m going to break this down for people. So what we’re talking about is a kettlebell competition. Two kettlebells, 32 kilograms each, which is 64, about, you know, a little over 70 pounds and doing what’s called the long cycle. And do you want to explain what the long cycle is so people can grasp how difficult this is?
Denis Vasilev
Yeah, it’s another name. It’s a clean and jerk, which is literally, well clean. It’s a movement of a swinging two kettlebells and getting them into. Well, it’s called a rack fixation on the chest. And then from the chest, you’re lifting them over the head and you repeat the cycle over and over again. So from the top, you drop them into the rack and then drop them into reclean, Swing it, get it back into the rack and keep going.
Steven Sashen
And you did this how many times in how many minutes?
Denis Vasilev
- 85 repetitions in 10 minutes.
Steven Sashen
God. And just out of curiosity, the guy who got second place, how many did he do?
Denis Vasilev
Well, actually, on, on this event, it was like, I think no one, no one was lifting 32s on these competitions.
Steven Sashen
Oh, really?
Denis Vasilev
Well, it’s such a. It’s such a high level that. Well, in United States, yet it’s very few people who can do it, like worldwide. It’s. Well, it’s. It’s more than 100 lifters who can leap 32 kilograms times two.
Steven Sashen
32 times two.
Denis Vasilev
Yeah, yeah. 10 minutes. But it’s considered elite level. Well, that’s why, that’s why I’m so proud of it because, well, it’s quite, you know, outstanding performance. It’s in kable sport, there’s rankings, sport ranks. So the highest sport rank by the numbers, master of sport international class. And that’s what I scored, 85 reps. It’s above the master of sport international class criteria by any existing capable sport organizations in the world. I UKL wkf, to be fair, you know, what to say is that it’s not the world world record and I’m actually holder of the world record in this weight loss of 101 reps. But, well, that was, you know, absolute, you know, peak of my career in 2015. And well, I’m 42 years old and actually when it’s. When you narrow down to professional athletes who still lifting on the world level while in their 40s. Well, it’s, it’s very, very few of us. Yeah, I need to really, like think who else can score such result in my age. But, well, it’s like worldwide, this result will. Will stay like in the first five. First five results in the world. Absolute. We’re talking like youngsters, everyone without any Discounts. Discounts for age.
Steven Sashen
You know, at 63, when I’m on the track, I’m still competing as a sprinter. The guys in their 30s have started referring to me as an inspiration, and I want to punch them every time they do that. It’s like, you know, call me when I’m in my mid-70s, not my mid-60s. I don’t want to be an inspiration yet, but I imagine there are people, you know, who are in their 20s, early 30s even, who look at you as an inspiration.
Denis Vasilev
Thank you. Well, it’s. That’s. That’s my goal too. Well, I retired from the national team in 2015, and it’s been 11 years ago, and my. I’ve published my training methodology book where, you know, I feel like it’s. And maybe a bad luck or, you know, was scared to jinx it, to like, count how many times I won competitions and how many reps when I was still like, you know, scoring. But once I retire from national team, I think, okay, you know, the, the major part the of. Of careers completed and let’s just see what I’ve done. So. But by the time I published the book 2023, I’ve done 68 competitions with double 32s. Wow. So 68 times I did 10 minutes set with double 32 kilogram kettlebells. And my average results through my whole career was 83.4 repetitions. Well, and with the absolute peak of 101. Well, and on the beginnings, I actually, I didn’t took in their account, like my really first attempts before MS, like the year 2001, 2002, and I start coring when, like, when I get to like mid mid 60s. So that’s by all means. Well, and that’s why. No, really with confidence says that it’s a. It’s a serious performance. Not just because of my ego, but the pure statistics.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, no, it’s a competition.
Denis Vasilev
It’s a score. Well, it’s way above my average through my career. And you give me this result at any point of my career, I will take it. You know, my 20s and my 30s, I won 11 world championships in cattleball sport. And more than half of them, what I won with like mid-80s reps, 83, 84, 85. I mean, like this result that I show now, and I was just kind of chasing the, the. Well, you know, just my physical abilities. And when I scored 101, like, to your question, what was the second place? Second place was like 67. But I, I didn’t care. I never care. About. Yeah, rivals. Well, I mean I, I always was looking for information and you know, to understand what’s going on and you know, what’s the world records, to understand what can be like a, you know, a good goal. But once I hit 90 reps, that’s basically solved the problem of winning. Like 90 reps was securing my first place on any event and I was holding it for six years in a row in the national team, never lost once. And then I even score 100 reps, which is I, I was the third person in the world in the history of the sport who did such a result with no reason really. But I just, I just know I can and, and I, and I did and well, of course, you know, the, you know, you cannot. Well, at least as far as I know, no, no ideology, you know, and well, this 2001101 reps was performed 2015. I was 32 years old and that’s pretty much was my, I think a physical peak. And from that point I kind of was trying to maintain. And right now, well, yeah, I think.
Steven Sashen
No again, it’s quite an accomplishment. And so again, congrats. Now again you reached out to me and said so we talked about kettlebells and kettlebell training and kettlebell sport before in a previous episode, but we never got to shoes. And that’s how we got connected is that you had gotten some zero shoes and had some experiences with that and how that affected your training and you wanted to talk about that. So I’m going to let you just jump in and talk about, you know, I want you to address a couple things. What you were doing, what you were doing with zero shoes and what your, what the effect has been and what other people are doing. What else, what other people are wearing and what your opinion is about why they’re wearing those things or what the problems might be, etc. So basically, you know, the kind of your footwear evolution, if you would, and what’s happening in the, the bigger world where, you know, like again on this podcast, we like to break down mythology about how people are doing things. And I, I know you think that there’s some mythology in what people are typically wearing in their experience with that. So I’m going to let you take it from here.
Denis Vasilev
So I started teaching kettlebellable sport internationally 2010. And so before 2010 I was pure, just athlete to the bond. Just this was all what I was doing. Well though, I, I was working as a, as a trainer in the gym. So I was always interested in, in, in teaching and I honestly I haven’t saw that that’s the option to teach kettlebell sport. I back then I, you know, there wasn’t like demand yet, but then it just exploded in, in like late 2000s early tens. And it’s much with the peak of my career. So I get invited to, to teach and when I start doing that I realized that how great it affects my own performance because when I’m teaching in front of the people well I think well if I demonstrating some certain technique element well I better do it perfect. And, and just by, by, by teaching the certifications and and workshops, I improve my technique dramatically. And that was the moment when I just really start enjoying the whole process of refining and, and, and and tuning up the well the technique and really like whatever you do so and you know, one time goes by well I was able to dive in more and more detail. So I did like quite a, you know, lots of experiments with my technique like regarding the symmetry and it was a pandemic times when it comes to shoes. So. Well before, before that, before 2020, it’s Olympic weightlifting shoes and that’s what still majority of professional kettlebell sport athletes wearing.
Steven Sashen
And so, so describe what I mean some people know because I’ve actually talked with other people like Chris Duffen who’s a former world well and has world records for lifting as well. We talked about what Olympic weightlifting shoes are. But for people who haven’t heard that obviously can you describe what they are or how and just how they’re constructed, etc.
Denis Vasilev
Yeah, well, it’s. Well they also progressing a little. But general idea is that it’s quite a high heel part. Well in the old times this was a wooden. Now it’s some modern material, some, some plastic and like serious. Well it’s like heavy duty boots basically made from like pretty solid material, usual leather and then very firm, flat. Like you basically feel like like iron, you know, standing on the. Especially if it’s a rubber surface, kind of like a glue to the platter. So it’s no roll left, right. And plus because of the heel elevation, well you kind of very, very firm on the ground which. Well and it’s originally. Well at least our motivation came from Olympic weightlifting. That’s what Olympic weightlifters use.
Steven Sashen
So let me, let me pause for a sec. So the way I describe Olympic weightlifting shoes, one way is it’s like if you took a hardwood floor and then just elevated it, you know, so it’s basically they’re taking the floor and using a heel lift to elevate that. And do you know why they evolve that way? And for whom they are good and for whom they might be bad?
Denis Vasilev
Well, actually, I’ve listened your podcast when you actually really.
Steven Sashen
Okay, that doesn’t count.
Denis Vasilev
Dive. Dive into this topic. This whole origin of the weightlifting shoes. That was very interesting to. To listen how it’s. It came into Olympic with lifting and well, you know, the. The heel elevation and you know, make it a bit less challenging. The ankle work when you’re performing, when you’re lifting a barbell or kettlebells, when you’re performing what’s called the first deep, second deep when you need to. Well, actually in cattleable sport, you need to keep the elbows on the stomach so you cannot quite tackle the pelvis back. But like, but the knees going forward. So with elevated heel, it’s, you know, there’s. Yeah, I mean, the benefit, you know, and less challenge to. To the uncle.
Steven Sashen
Yeah. So the couple things that people have told me, and I’m not an Olympic lifter or powerlifter, but one is, yes, if you don’t have great ankle mobility because your heels are elevated, you don’t need as much ankle mobility when your knees are forward, like at the bottom of a squat or even in. In that kind of almost just. I mean, any sort of knee bend, you know, less ankle mobility. You’re using less ankle mobility with your heels elevated. Another thing is with Olympic lifting where especially with the snatch, even more than the clean and jerk, but snatching the clean and jerk, when you have the barbell over your head, your shoulders are a little hyperextended. You’re basically like pulling them back as far as they can go. So you’re using the alignment of your bones to hold the weight up there instead of your musculature. And often for Olympic lifters, they’re hyperextended. So the bar is slightly behind their midline, which means that it’s pulling you backwards. So that little heel lift is kind of adjusting your center of mass so you’re not going to fall on your butt. Basically, with kettlebells, obviously, the way that you’re holding the bells when they’re overhead, it’s a little bit different. But there’s also one other theory that people started using them for squatting for powerlifting. If. I can never remember if they have shorter femurs or longer femurs, but it’s basically depending on your anatomy. Again, it can make the balancing a little bit easier. So it’s a bit of a. It’s a bit of a Crutch kind of fake out thing that for specific types of lifting and specific body types that then like in many sports, like sprinting spikes, somebody, there’s a new spike design. Somebody wins 100 meters in that spike design. And even if the winning had nothing to do with that spike, suddenly every company is making that design and everybody’s wearing that shoe. And it seems like the same kind of thing happened with Olympic weightlifting shoes. They went to all sorts of powerlifting where it’s not that relevant and everything in CrossFit and just kind of everywhere. And anyone thinks that if they’re doing anything the gym, they need them. And sort of last, the last part that I’ll on my rant about weightlifting shoes is like most athletic shoes and for no reason that makes any sense to me. They’re pointy, they squeeze your toes together. And so that’s a whole other thing. But so anyway, just want to do the world’s fastest version of getting a picture in people’s minds about what weightlifting shoes or Olympic weightlifting shoes look like. And as you were saying, you know, you and everybody else in kettlebell, that’s where you started out.
Denis Vasilev
Well, but actually the difference between Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting and kettlebell sport regarding this heel elevation and an ankle challenge is actually amplitude and a little bit lifting. Guys go all the way down. There’s no other choice. Right? When you’re holding like a £400 over your head, your, your glutes go to the heel. So the ankle challenge is maximum. And we can probably say, you know, that’s maybe the, the most strongest argument towards this heel elevation. And then, and then in powerlifting, what’s the criteria? Like, keep parallel to, to the ground so it’s a little shallower, so it’s a little bit less of a challenge. Kettlebell sport, our under squat is like half, like 45°. Oh, wow, that’s it. So it’s pretty shallow. So speaking it’s not too much of a challenge for ankle really. You know, like this heel elevation. Like I feel like in cattleball sport, they’re like in, in this group of three, Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting and kettlebell sport is like least needed for sure because it’s just really shallow short under squat. Whenever I go like even like overhead position, one thing is your, you’re holding the weight over your head and you like sitting all the way at the bottom. And another thing, when your legs are slightly bent so that, that’s one thing where, you know, it’s like when eventually why I switched to, to barefoot shoes. To zero shoes because I don’t honestly see any benefit in elevated heel. And then another thing is that the firm support on the edges of a foot that kind of you know, usually weightlifting shoes their soil even might be like a little bit wider than. Than the top of the shoe. Even even the latest ones last year I kind of. I was making slowly progress so I switched to from. From Adidas and narrow pointy shoes to Tyrs to like white tool lifting shoe. So which was a bit you know, easier and spread the fingers but still like very hard soil of the. Of the shoe that kind of prevents you from. From rolling and and you.
Steven Sashen
So so that’s an interesting. It’s a very interesting thing is like okay we’re going to lift you move you further off the ground, but then to make it so that it’s more like the ground we’re going to make the sole of the shoe wider so you. There’s going to be less opportunity for you to over an edge. Which of course if we think about basketball shoes, the number one cause of ankle sprains is falling over one of the edges of the shoe where they make it wider with that same philosophy. But in fact because of the. All the lateral motion those guys are doing, they’ll still like catch an edge and then twist their ankles and be out for you know, games or season. So it’s. It’s kind of comical that they’ve built. They build back into that shoe something that they had to build in because of how they disconnected you from the thing that doesn’t need that AKA the floor.
Denis Vasilev
Yeah, I’m still in process of analyzing this, but what what happens in. In cattleable sport. I can see in professional division like some professional athletes they prefer a pretty wide stance. Right. It’s maybe like a 90 degree between. Between legs. Right? Well there are to specific of cattle sport direct fixation. It seemed a bit easier to reach them pelvis by. By your elbows when your legs are wide and and at the same time lock the knees so so your quads can relax and relax if you’re lacking mobility a little bit. So you can compensate by widening the. The stance.
Steven Sashen
Oh interesting.
Denis Vasilev
And then when you stand so wide and well then you kind of like sliding off the shoe and and Olympic weightlifting should say oh that’s that’s only the shoes to wear. Whereas you know, if you’re lifting something light you feel like you’re. You’re rolling all the out of the. Of the shoe to. To its age. But I think it’s. It’s not solving the, the issue. Well, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s solving the. Well, maybe it’s solving the, the issue of sliding to the side, but it’s actually makes you think less about your technique and improving as the, as the athlete. So you just, you know, get over overbuilt shoes. And then in cattle sport, the strike fixation, you can also get like some super bulky huge belt because you’re lacking of mobility and you cannot click, can quite place your elbows on the stomach. So you put like a very thick leather belt so you can, you can rest arms on it and well, you can do some lifting by that. But it’s not the, the most strategical thinking. And strategical thinking, you should rely on the equipment as less as possible. And that will really motivate you to make major improvements in your body such, you know, flexibility. So you can place your elbows on the stomach even without belt and with stance. And that’s what I’ve noticed wearing the lifting shoes. It’s. I have. I’m receiving such a great feedback from the floor. So I’m like. And it’s because we’re lifting for 10 minutes straight and, and imagine like you repeat, you’re repeating the same movement. So what happens is, you know, over the multiple repetitions, you might, you know, we all lacking of perfect symmetry. We’re all slightly asymmetrical. So one leg might give a little bit more output than another. So athletes kind of move on the platform slightly through the lifting and like. And you actually probably can tell like what’s exactly like wrong with them because some athletes moving to the left. Right, let’s moving to the right. Some outlets kind of start like tilting, turning.
Steven Sashen
Yeah, yeah.
Denis Vasilev
Turn it left or right side. So it’s for like. I think it’s a demonstration of slight like asymmetry going with. With your body.
Steven Sashen
So.
Denis Vasilev
Yeah.
Steven Sashen
So again, I’m trying to. I’m walking through this in my head. So. So a couple of points that I just want to reiterate. So one is when you’re. So the key thing again is the rack position or one of the key things is the rack position, which again, if people didn’t really follow, imagine just trying to put your elbows together in, in like against your body and then your wrist together too. I mean, it’s. I’m exaggerating a little bit, obviously. The cat. Yeah, but this is the idea. And so I like that, you know, if you can’t actually get your elbows into your stomach, so you can essentially have a bit of a rest, in a way, but also that’s how you’re going to help explode for the second part of the lift. So then you can get a belt to fake it. And in the same way, the shoes are allowing you to kind of fake it, because the way they’re overbuilt when you’re wearing the shoes and you don’t feel connected and you’re not connected to the floor really well, you are, especially when your stance is wider. When your legs are farther apart, you are putting force onto the outside edge of your foot. And if that’s unchecked, you know, you’ll keep sliding, sliding, sliding out. And the idea that because we’re not symmetrical, as you’re still just, you know, doing this thing where you’re heaving, you know, significant weights up in front of your body and up over your head, you’re gonna. If with that asymmetry and with the fact that you’re putting pressure on the outside edges of your foot, you might love this image that if you watch it in. In fast motion, you’d see someone kind of scooting to the left or scooting to the right or turning clockwise or turning clockwise, which is showing an imbalance. And this is the part that I’m. That I love that you mentioned that I’m really landing on. It’s going to show an imbalance that if you are just connected to the ground and your feet can feel the ground, you can feel those imbalances and correct those issues. So that. That will make you a stronger, better, more resilient athlete in general, and in this case, better for kettlebell.
Denis Vasilev
Did I get it all perfect? Yeah, you nailed it. Cyclical. Cyclical sport. Kettlebell sport. Meaning that you, well, move certain way and then you multiply it. Yeah, it’s a family, you know, of member of the sports, like, well, cycling, swimming, running. And the goal, the challenge as well. First basic step is to learn how to do it right at all. But then the major challenge that follows you through your whole career, how to remain technique consistent to the whole performance and how to not fall apart. You know, when you’re running, not get lazy to like and start dragging feet. You know, you used to always, like, leave the heel to the certain level. Well, and, you know, representatives of their sports will. Will, you know, point their. Their details. But in. In cattleable sport, that’s. That’s the stance. And so if you’re standing, you know, with kind of ideal width of a stance, well, which is, you know, slightly wider than the shoulder width, but Then over the time, kind of under the radar, your feet sliding to the side, you’re losing the efficiency.
Steven Sashen
See, Right.
Denis Vasilev
And, and plus, yeah, your technique falling apart. And that’s, that’s the issue of advanced athletes.
Steven Sashen
Right.
Denis Vasilev
And so the goal is to like. And the question is how to stay consistent through the set. And well, during the workout, we might use a mirror so you just have a visual to remind, but, well, you don’t have mirror on competition. And again, you know, with the barefoot shoes, like what I’ve noticed that I’m noticing right away, once my stance start to getting wider in the, in the barefoot shoes, and I adjust it immediately so I, I’m constantly receiving feedback. So that’s how I solved the problem of my feet getting wider. And that was amazing. Like, once I feel that it’s, it’s very cool. Yeah.
Steven Sashen
Well, I’m going to dive into that a little more. You reminded me there’s a world champion sprinter that I know who said when you’re doing the various drills to learn how to have proper sprinting form, your first goal is to get it right. And then the goal is to make it so you can’t get it wrong. And of course, sprinting, you know, it’s less time or less opportunity to get it wrong. But what you just said is so interesting because what I say about a truly barefoot shoe is that the changes that you’re going to experience are from the feedback that you’re getting. It’s what you can feel with your feet that’s going to tell you if things are going right or wrong and gives you the opportunity to adjust. And normally I think about this in the context of running or even walking, where many people just kind of swing their leg out from in front of them and land with their foot way too, too far out in front of them again, walking or running. And when you do that in either bare feet or in a barefoot shoe and you land on the, the, the back part of your heel, effectively, that’s going to hurt. And if you pay attention to try to find a way to move, what doesn’t hurt, your gait changes. It gets more efficient, takes less energy after you get used to it because you’re learning something new. So it’s takes more energy to learn a new thing, but then less energy if it’s more efficient. But I had never thought just that simple thing of how your feet would be spreading out from the repetition and the weight. And that gives you a chance to adjust and be more efficient through the whole thing, which I love. What else did you notice when you switched to zero? What other things about that kind of shoe design did you notice an effect from?
Denis Vasilev
Yeah. So next big thing is, well, transition from, from the bump to the under squat. So that’s, that’s a face when you’re performing a jerk. So when you’re kicking the, the elbows when it bells up, so you’re flexing your quad so hard that while you basically throwing your body. Well, it is like similar to Olympic, Olivia, you go on the tiptoe.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Denis Vasilev
And then once, once the weights took off, well, then you rush under it, go into under squat, landing on your heels and fixating the weight over the hill.
Steven Sashen
So I’m just going to paint the picture of people on for this one again. So you might know it if you’re thinking about, if you’re thinking about the clean and jerk for lifting. You know, they’re basically doing effectively a deadlift and then getting the bar to their shoulders and squatting all the way down like ass to the grass. For kettlebell, you’re not squatting that far. But then there’s that, that next thing that literally is like jumping to get the bar over your head and then squatting again to get underneath the bar. And rather than trying to get the bar to go all the way, you’re just getting the bar some way and then you get underneath. So it’s a similar, similar, similar idea here. And so, so just trying to, and just giving people the image of what you have to do in that. You know, imagine jumping, but you never get your feet all the way off the ground. You know, that’s kind of the effect that we’re talking about at the foot level. So. All right, so I continue from there.
Denis Vasilev
Yeah, so when you’re landing on your heel, so you should get it just right. And it’s, you know, some athletes get mislead and they focus on like how much noise they make by landing the heel on the ground rather than timing, you know, so it’s all about to get under the weight quick enough so you can place your body and straight arms under the belts. It’s, it’s, it’s considered like a off timing off under squat when your heels on the ground and arms still bend. So then you need to press, so you need to rapidly go under it and manage to, while bales go up, straighten your arms so the weight goes through the axle of the, of the arm. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a timing and it’s not about how high your heels went or above the. Yep. How high your he. Your heels went during the bump or how hard you drop them. It’s about. Well, just, just get, get the timing right. And here’s the balance of like, let’s say if you have a very powerful bump, well, then your under squat can be shorter. But if your bump is not as strong, well, then you need to squat under it deeper. But again, it should be just, just a perfect, perfect timing. And it’s not good when it’s, you know, it’s not enough, but it’s also not good when you’re overkilling it. And I think the weightlifting shoes, it’s kind of motivates you to overkill it because, well, you have this like a hard, you know, surface of the heel. And then again, guys concentrating on just slamming, slamming the heel into the platform and. Well, because you have such protection. Well, you know, you make a noise, but you don’t feel pain from your heel. You don’t have. You’re not receiving any feedback that you’re over killing it. Whereas in the barefoot shoes, well, you, you’re more careful. Well, you’re receiving immediate feedback. And you understand once you land your heel on the ground, like you did it right, or you jam it like too hard on the ground or maybe not enough, and you kind of like remain kind of, you know, on your toes and kind of rolling forward a little bit. So again, it just helps you to like, get it just tune up is just, just perfect, you know, when, when you distribute enough weight on your heel, but you’re not overkilling it. And well, that’s another things that I really like, you know, about the thin soils and, and barefoot shoes that I can sense very well the bottom of the underscore.
Steven Sashen
That’s. That’s great. And again, ironically, or maybe not ironically, it’s a similar kind of thing with running. If you put a big bunch of foam underneath your heel, you. What’s actually happening in that situation, aside from the fact that the foam almost makes you land on your heel because of how it kind of gets in the way of what your natural gait would be otherwise, where your heel would pass over the ground and you’d land more midfoot or forefoot. But the other part is that cushioning doesn’t. I don’t know if it’s. It’s not quite the same for an Olympic weightlifting shoe because of the construction of the sole, but in a running shoe, the foam isn’t actually absorbing any force. The force is still going into your body. What it’s doing is it’s spreading the pressure out so that you’re. The sensors in the bottom of your foot don’t feel it and so you’re not feeling it in your feet. So you can’t really make those adjustments. But the force is still going up into your shin and into your knee, then into your hip. There’s research showing that no amount of cushioning reduces the amount of force going into your knees if you are landing on your heel. And it’s a similar thing. So this is giving you that again that information that allows you to adjust because if you’re. I like the phrase overhealing it. If you’re overhealing, then clearly that’s actually not optimal form. And so to get that information about how to find that optimal form from the feedback. Same idea with walking, same idea with running. So again in this application, I love what you discovered. Did you notice anything with the difference in the. The foot shape or the toe box shape and how that impacted anything? And I’m not trying to lead the witness. You may have, you might not have.
Denis Vasilev
You mean that the fact that it’s a well enough room for your. For your toes that. Yes, oh yes, yes, absolutely. It’s. Well as I said that. Well I switched to. Well, I’ve achieved this result 85 reps December 5th. So I can say that it’s like my experiment. It’s well kind of officially and successfully completed. At least it’s its first run and we are in. Well it was December 2025. But I’ve started wearing the barefoot shoes. The zero shoes from 2000 so five years. So I mean it’s, it’s a long time solved problem with you know, narrow toes. Like I stopped lifting them, I’ve stopped. You stopped using them for a while just for you know, for, for all kind of activities for everyday walking and. And for running. Well and now for lifting. It’s. It’s definitely feel more natural and stable. Of course, you know, even back then when I was using a narrow shoes. Well you’re finding your way and you adjust you know and you to, to. To the tool and you know, you, you, you, you are accordingly. But once. Well yeah interesting thing that was that. Well if that’s okay to mention because it was kind of like a transitioning stage like from, from this very narrow squeeze toes Olympic with lifting shoes to barefoot shoes. In the middle was this Tyr shoes with the, with the white toe. Yeah, that kind of like transition. Right. It’s like they, they ease a little bit your toes but they still grabbing the whole foot and the heel, but still, you know, step to the right direction. And I remember that once I switched to the white toe weightlifting shoes from, from the classic narrow ones. I haven’t noticed the difference. First and I did a couple months of training and then by. I think I went for competitions or something. So I, I basically I, I needed to use my old shoes. By some reason I haven’t took my tuars and, and I put on the. And that’s when I’ve noticed, I said okay. I haven’t noticed how I switched to the wide. But when, after a while when you know, I get used to the wide ones, I tried to put on the narrow ones. I said no, it just feels impossible. It feels tight.
Steven Sashen
I actually got a text over the weekend from a very well known CEO of a very large footwear brand who wears that company shoes and, and wear zero shoes. And for some reason he had seen a pair of. Well, he told me he got a pair of Nikes that he had seen that looked really cool. And so he just, you know, said well they look great, I got to get them. So he puts them on his feet. He walked like five feet and went oh my God, I can’t wear these. They’re squeezing my toes together so badly. And he had just forgotten because it had been so long since he had worn anything that squeezed his toes together. He forgot how bad that felt. So anything. So I don’t want to keep you too long for this, but I am really glad to hear just about your experience obviously and how similar it is to other people doing completely different things, which is what I find really, really fascinating. Anything else that you can think of? Just about either your experience of transitioning to using a minimalist shoe for kettlebell sport or just the experience of wearing zero shoes when you’re doing this.
Denis Vasilev
Yeah, yeah. Another very, very cool things that happens was I don’t, I don’t have cramps in my feet anymore after, after a big set. So I have a flat, flat feet.
Steven Sashen
Yeah.
Denis Vasilev
And well, I never really have any major issues with it or discomfort. Like you know, I was athletic all my life but when I was doing competitions, kettlebell sport competitions, like a major 10 minute sets and it’s. I wasn’t really feeling it during the set. I guess this whole like competition excited. But the moment I put the bells down I realized that my feet like I barely can walk. It’s just such a hard cramps. I just kind of like trying with Sprite leave the platform so no one will Notice and then it just needs to. And then just, you know, lean on the wall and like start to stretching my shanks and maybe took the shoes off. You know, it just was cramping the, the middle of the, of the foot. And it’s, it’s not the case anymore. It’s, it’s. It’s not happening. Well, and again, you know, I believe in my, well, scientific approach to experiment. And when you try something new technique or new tool for a couple reps with the lightweight, well, yeah, you’re not gonna get it. It’s not the true experiment. True experiment. When you did the whole training cycle and you took a real deal weights and you did the whole thing and it’s not only you should survive it, but ideally you should demonstrate somewhat, you know, reasonable results. So that’s how you can tell, okay, is it, does it work or not? And right now I’ve already made through like double half snatch exercise and long cycle. And actually right now it’s actually the toughest challeng. Therefore choose the jerk only where no reclean. And it’s the most. Basically all what you do is you’re going for the bump and the second in bump and the second. So that’s where it seems like shoes the most. And, and I’m, I’m feeling great about it and I don’t feel any, any tension, any, any cramps in my feet anymore.
Steven Sashen
I have a theory about the foot cramping similar to why people, some report just, you know, foot pain in general in regular shoes. And that is if you’re in a shoe that doesn’t let your foot move, you’re basically doing like isometric contractions. So you’re trying to move but you can’t. And if your body’s in a position where the muscles or ligaments are stretched, when you’re trying to do that, you’re putting them under strain. Where if they could move, you can use the rest of the structure, the bony structure to support the muscles, ligaments, tendons. And if you can’t do that, you’re just putting them under too much strain in a position they’re not supposed to be in. And even with. It’s like little movements during the course of the day that allow you to alternately, you know, relax certain muscles while you’re using other muscles. For example, you know, you’re not. You’re. If your foot is able to move, it will move and there’ll be subtle little things. And this could all. I don’t think anyone’s tested this. You could do this with an electromyograph and put that on people’s feet and see what’s different as if they’re in a regular shoe versus a something like zero shoes. Which would be a very cool experiment to do. I’m gonna have to talk to someone about that. But that’s my theory is that basically when you can’t. When you’re trying to move something that can’t move a stiff soled shoe, you’re applying force in a way that puts more strain on the, on the soft tissue.
Denis Vasilev
It’s. It’s really amazing if, If I made or share the. The emotional moment. It’s. Please like once, like I really start thinking about it is. Is the changing the. Your whole life experience. It’s like, you know, my associations. It’s like, you know, you’re going for some like a safari tour on the bus. Yeah. You know, like you. You see all this beauty, but you’re sitting in the bus. You walk in the bus. You. You cannot like, feel it. And that’s for me it’s something like you’re wearing the heavy boosted boots compared to barefoot shoes. Because when you like I’m running outdoors and like I like to feel maybe a small rock under my, under my like, you know, small toe or there I can feel the, the surface. You know, if it’s like, you know, asphalt or it’s. Or it’s a soil or it’s a sand. Like all this like feedback, it just fills you up with like way more feedback. The, the thin soil where. Yeah. In the over booster shoes, you just numb. You know, you just. Just the. The laces or Velcros just squeezing your foot and you. You’re not feeling anything. It’s like a brick under it. Yeah. And I, I just. I enjoying it so much in. In all kind of activities in outdoors and Well, I, well, you know, I maybe, maybe not surprised why it took me longer because while you always kind of wants to maybe challenge the theory and, and test it out. But I’m so glad that I gave it a shot and I’m so glad that I’m at least you know, the. Whatever time I have left, I will enjoy it in. In the barefoot or shoes. And I really think it’s a, It’s a good thing and I’m. I’m really grateful to you for creating.
Steven Sashen
You know, such a. Oh, thanks.
Denis Vasilev
Amazing, beautiful product. And even to like educate people on, you know, how important it is. It’s not just a new way to look on the shoe. Stylish. It’s Just a very serious reasons for shoe to be this way.
Steven Sashen
So, yeah, and what you described, that emotional experience, I mean, there actually is neurological evidence about how, you know, letting your feet feel and move does things in your brain that creates positive experiences, whether it’s relaxation or focus or clarity or just enjoyment. I mean, that’s a real thing. It’s not. It’s. It’s a neurophysiological psychological phenomenon. And, and, yeah, you can’t go back so well. On that note, Dennis, again, total, total pleasure. I’m really thrilled that you reached out to share your experience with everyone. I hope they find it useful. But again, you are teaching. You have a book that’s out. Do you want to tell people how they can get in touch with you to find out more about kettlebells and kettlebell sport, which is an amazing, amazing thing. Again, if you haven’t listened to that episode, find it. But how can people find you?
Denis Vasilev
Dennis Vasiliv Kettlebell, my first and last name, and that’s my username on Instagram. That’s my YouTube channel, and that’s my website.
Steven Sashen
And just to be clear for people listening, he’s Dennis with one N D E N I S Vasilev V A S I L E V Kettlebell. So I do hope you check him out, because you’d be learning from one of the masters and that there’s no better way to learn than from someone who has mastered the sport the way that you have. So for everyone else, again, thank you for being here and for joining me on the podcast. Again, a reminder, head over to jointhemovementmovement.com there’s nothing you need to do to join, by the way, just the domain name. But that’s where you find previous episodes, the ways you can find us on social media, how you can share with your friends and family and get them hip to this idea of natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do instead of getting in the way of it. And if you have any questions or comments, somebody you want to have me talk to on the show, especially if you know someone who thinks I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome and wants to have a little chat about that, I’m game. You can drop me an email. I’m at move m o v e. Join themovement movement.com and until then, until whatever is next, go out, have fun, and live life feet first.