Bart Potter is the author of Jiffy Body, The 10-Minute System to Avoid Joint and Muscle Pain. Since 1995 Bart has taught people of all ages a simple approach to avoid pain and tune-up their bodies. He enjoys sharing quick tips for a healthier and happier body, brain and life.
Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Bart Potter about why you shouldn’t work out to change your body.
Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:
– How doing a variety of activities throughout the day can help build muscle fiber, increase bone density, and improve joint range of motion.
– How moving your feet in slow circles can activate important muscles and improve lower leg, ankle, and foot function.
– How improving muscle balance through varied movements can strengthen counterbalancing muscles and enhance overall body function.
– Why exploring new activities can help maintain flexibility and expand your range of motion.
– How consistency in practicing body mechanics daily can lead to significant improvements in body function.
Connect with Bart:
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Links Mentioned:
jiffybody.com
Connect with Steven:
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Episode Transcript
Steven Sashen:
If you are looking to improve your body in every way you can imagine, maybe working out is not the way to do it. We’re going to find out more about that on today’s episode of The MOVEMENT Movement Podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Usually starting with the feet first, because those things are, in fact, your foundation.
We talk about the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the lies, flat out lies, that you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or play or hike or dance or do yoga or CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do, and to do it enjoyably, effectively, efficiently. Did I mention enjoyably? I know I did. Because if you’re not having fun, please do something different until you are. And we call it The MOVEMENT Movement Podcast, because we’re talking about natural movement, our goal here at Xero Shoes.
By the way, I’m Steven Sashen, host of the podcast and CEO of Xero Shoes. Our goal is to make natural movement the obvious, healthy, better choice, the way natural food currently is, and it’s a movement about doing that, which means it involves you. And all that means is like and share and review and give us a thumbs up or hit the bell on YouTube to make sure you hear about new episodes, et cetera. You know what to do. In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, please do subscribe. So we are joined today by Bart Potter. Bart, why don’t you do me a favor, tell human beings who the hell you are and why you’re here.
Bart Potter:
Hi, Steven. Thanks for having me. Yeah, first of all, I just wanted to say I’m a big fan of your shoes and I’ve been wearing them for a long time, and also, I’ve really been enjoying your podcast. Lots of useful information.
Steven Sashen:
Thank you. And one of the reasons that we’re here is that I’ve enjoyed your book, which I’m hoping, at some point, you will hold up and flash and point to get there.
Bart Potter:
I should have had a copy with me here.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, man, and I wasn’t smart enough to have a copy. In fact, I think someone may have borrowed it. We have a nice library here at the office with a whole bunch of books about barefoot running and natural movement, and things like… Obviously, what you do. But I have to check and see if it’s checked out. So let’s jump… Backing up a bit, so tell people who the hell you are and what you-
Bart Potter:
Sure thing. My name is Bart Potter and I’ve been practicing as an exercise therapist for over 20 years. Actually, before I got into exercise therapy about 25 years ago, actually, the reason I got dragged unwillingly towards this field initially at first was several years of chronic shoulder, upper, and lower back pain. So I had no choice but to try to move in a direction where I could figure out what was going on to get me back on track, and I visited experts in sports medicine, physical therapy, chiropractic, acupuncture, pain management. Just spent a crazy amount of time and money seeking out answers to get back on track, because I’d gone from someone who was relatively athletic, I played college tennis, I did lots of the things that people like to do here in Colorado, ski and hike, and all that good stuff.
And I went from being highly functional to highly dysfunctional, to the point where I couldn’t even use my shoulder very much anymore. I had to learn to write left-handed at one point.
Steven Sashen:
Wow.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, so that was initially how I got moving in the direction towards exercise therapy. Fortunately, I eventually met a mentor who was able to get me back on track with that. He was a guy who had that track record where people would come to him from all over who had been a lot of other places first, like me, and his techniques were so effective that he had that track record. He could just help one person after the next, after the next. Pretty efficiently and easily get back, move them in the right direction.
Steven Sashen:
How’d you find him to begin with, and can you mention who it is?
Bart Potter:
Yeah, just extreme luck. And for me, I guess I was a pretty complicated case. Lots of trial and error, but eventually, my mom had met this guy through a friend and she said, “Hey, I think you should meet this guy. Sounds pretty smart,” and that was it. It did take a while, it wasn’t like an overnight thing, “Bam, you’re fixed,” but he knew the techniques and he had the insights to point me in the right direction. And at first, it was just me wanting to get better and move on with my life and forget about this portion of my life, basically. But then, really, I became fascinated with how effective he was, how effective the techniques were at helping one person after the next, so pretty soon, I was like, “Hey, I want to learn how to do this and teach it to other people.”
And so, for over 20 years now, I’ve been refining and teaching the techniques I learned from my friend, Sean McCarver, and using them to help my own clients. And then, most recently, incorporating that into the book I wrote called Jiffy Body, which teaches people a 10-minute daily system where they can practice the same types of techniques and ideas that I learned from Sean.
Steven Sashen:
So just to highlight again, this is normally something we do at the end of the podcast, but I may as well do it now. So if people want to find out about the book, Jiffy Body, where do they go to do that?
Bart Potter:
Yeah, they can go to my website, it is jiffybody.com. And there’s two Fs. Yeah, yeah. There’s two Fs there, and you can find it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, it’s pretty easy to kind of Google and look up.
Steven Sashen:
And just as a quick testimonial, I mean, it is a very simple and elegant little program. And the book is very… How do I put it? It’s like a really pleasant, comfortable, easy read. It’s engaging, it’s entertaining, it’s personal, it’s really sweet. It was well done.
Bart Potter:
Thank you, appreciate it.
Steven Sashen:
Well, so backing up, the teaser that we gave inspired by you was that you don’t need to work out to get your body functioning properly, working properly. Can you say more about that?
Bart Potter:
Yeah, absolutely. I think first part of that starts with a mindset that I’ve had even before I got into all of this, and a lot of people might think, is that no pain, no gain type situation. And that does draw people towards the gym and really aggressive heavy workouts, and that could be fine. I mean, I like to work out as well for enjoyment, but the fact is it’s not a requirement to improve body function and performance. And forgive me if I’m promoting my system a little bit, but there’s very simple tactics you can learn to improve body mechanics for your whole body. Similar to your shoes. You figured out that modern shoe companies were over-engineering footwear and restricting natural movement, and that’s created like a straight jacket for our feet, where they can’t express themselves. Similarly, because of our modern environment, because we don’t tend to move and use our bodies with variety, like our ancestors did even 100 years ago, we’ve lost that natural movement, we’ve lost the ability to express normal joint range of motion, things like that.
So what can happen for people is if, for instance, you sit eight hours a day in your office, that’s at least 2,900 hours of sitting in a year with your body like I am in this couch, in a restricted, confined position. And then, when you get up and try to use your body, maybe for something more aggressively, you might encounter problems. So A, even working out aggressively in that situation could be dangerous, but B, if you can just improve body mechanics, allow for more natural movement, you’re going to feel better and just basically want to use your body more.
So the more you can use your body with variety throughout your day, and like you say, more natural movement, do a variety of activities with your body, the whole time, you’re creating your own resistance with gravity. That’s why people who work in fields or do manual labor create their own type of resistance program that builds more muscle fiber, that increases bone density, that improves joint range of motion. You can get all of these benefits just by… Some people will really resent this when they say this, but you can improve by doing your chores around the house. That can be-
Steven Sashen:
Don’t say that too loud.
Bart Potter:
Exactly, I get some grimaces about that. But that can really improve body function, muscle mass, bone density, range of motion, flexibility, all of these great things just by moving it and using it.
Steven Sashen:
I just thought of a great new product. So we need to make a broom with a 15 or 20-pound weighted handle, I think that’d be good. Or a dust pan with a five-pound dumbbell built into it or a towel for drying the dishes, like a heavy… So Elaine and I got a weighted blanket, which we really enjoy, so now we need weighted dish towels. This is a whole new business that we’re thinking of right here. Well, before I jump in, I’ve got a couple of comments just about what you said, but before we do that, since you set this up, and I know I’m putting you on the spot when I do this, but hey, live with it. So can you think of a movement thing that you could share with people now, either to help them experience anything, whether it could be how they may have some restriction that they could alleviate or just something that they could do that feels good, instead of pointing out something problematic? Anything that you want to offer to people.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, absolutely. I could do two even, if you want. I could do one for-
Steven Sashen:
All right. Well, I only asked for one, but if you’re going to throw in a bonus, I’m not going to say no.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, two for the price of one. So the first thing is… People love this one, actually, and I’m sure you’re going to be familiar with this, because you’re so knowledgeable about foot and ankle function, and all of that, but this is one I teach my clients in the book as well. So using the couch, actually, can be very useful for beneficial practice positions. So I’ll lean back here, so hopefully you can see my foot and what I’m wearing too, by the way.
Steven Sashen:
I can see the tip of your toes.
Bart Potter:
Okay, I’m wearing my Xero Shoes. If I lift my foot, there we go.
Steven Sashen:
There it is.
Bart Potter:
So what you’re going to do is, if you draw a circle really slowly with your foot… Yeah. And the slower and more perfect circle you draw in both directions, the more you’re going to activate some muscles called your peroneus and tibialis muscles, which by the way, are also very impressive words to use on a date.
Steven Sashen:
I don’t know who you date, but okay. Whatever you say.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, exactly. So you’re practicing… A, you’re practicing joint range of motion, which is beneficial. That’s not something we do during our day a lot. But B, by activating those muscles, they’re like straps on a Roman sandal that go down your lower leg and attach to the points underneath your foot, and that’s what gives leverage to create stability as you’re walking forward. So what you want as you’re walking is like a smooth tracking pattern, so you don’t want excess lateral vibration in your foot if you’re going to walk forward smoothly. And so that’s just one of the benefits those muscles provide, so yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I was just going to say what was really interesting, and I want to highlight this for people, is going as slow as you can, because then you start to… At first, you find these little glitches along the way and then they start to work themselves out, so there’s an interesting neurological thing going on there. And then, especially then, you reverse it. And then what’s fun… Wait, hold on, I got to do it. What’s entertaining… Do you recommend… I’ll ask it this way. Do you recommend people start with their dominant or non-dominant side if they’re going to do both?
Bart Potter:
The key thing is, as long as you’re practicing both, because what you mentioned there is really important, it’s self-diagnostic. Just by doing this stupidly simple practice position, you can notice where your weak point is in your range of motion. And sometimes, for people, it can be pretty dramatic. They’re like, “Whoa, that portion of the circle is not good.” And what they’ll notice, as they practice, is they can draw better circles, and that means you’re getting better lower leg, ankle, and foot function.
Steven Sashen:
The reason that I ask about dominant versus non-dominant, and you don’t have an opinion about it, nor do I at the moment, but what many people will find is, when you practice with one side, then the other side at first feels awkward, because you’ve already kind of gotten the first one in the groove, but usually improves faster than the second one. This is an idea from Feldenkrais, where it’s like, “Start with the good side and then the bad side comes along.” It’s what happened for me with my first barefoot run when I got… Or my second one, actually. But my first one, I got a blister on the ball of my left foot, so my second run, I was thinking, “Let me pay attention to the good side, the one that didn’t get a blister, and see if the, quote, ‘Bad side,’ comes along for the ride,” and it did.
It figured out, by paying attention to the good side, the bad side figured out how to change itself. And I want to emphasize, “Figured out how to change itself.” I wasn’t consciously doing anything other than paying attention to the good side. So again, doing a really slow rotation, this attention is more important than the speed or just getting around. It’s not just about-
Bart Potter:
Absolutely right.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, yeah.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, because initially, when I show that one to people, they want to do it really fast, but that’s absolutely correct. The more they focus that mindfulness part of the practice position and really drawing a slow, really good circle, then you’re really going to feel these muscles activating a lot more of these, and they’ll be like, “That’s where they are,” because you’ll feel them.
Steven Sashen:
It’s so funny you start with that, because I don’t know how it happened. I was just… I know what it was, it was one of these people do amazing things videos that I was watching when I was trying to get to sleep the other night. And it was a guy who, on a whiteboard, drew a perfect circle, freehand drew a perfect circle. So I love that we’re doing foot circles and he draws a perfect circle, and it was in a classroom and the whole class goes crazy. It’s very energy.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Okay, so you promised a bonus. Two for the price of one. What’s number two?
Bart Potter:
Absolutely, the second deals with upper body and it deals with counteracting one of the main causes of dysfunction for our bodies, and that’s sitting. As I mentioned earlier, all those hours of sitting we can do every year, myself included. And so when we’re sitting at our computers and steering wheels in our cars, and even in this couch, it’s really easy to slouch my shoulders instead of being externally rotated, I’m at my keyboard… This is an exaggeration, right? You could see my shoulders internally rotate.
Steven Sashen:
So for people who are listening, so internally rotating, the easiest way to think about that is if you outstretch your arm in front of you with your palm up and then rotate not just your arm, but rotate everything including your shoulder in. If your thumb is rotating counter… Your right thumb is rotating counterclockwise, left thumb clockwise, then really exaggerate the shoulder part of that, that’s internally rotated. And if you go the other way, your thumbs are starting to point out, so you’re rotating your right hand, clockwise, and left hand, counterclockwise. Especially if you pull your shoulders back a little, that’s going to be externally rotating your shoulder.
Bart Potter:
Yep, yep. So that’s the first part I wanted to explain. The second thing that happens when we’re sitting is these upper front muscles will tighten and shorten. So you could think of your muscles as cables that support a suspension bridge. You got your suspension bridge, let’s say the cables are tighter on one side of the bridge, that’s going to make the bridge lopsided and cause structural problems for the bridge, right? It’s not going to stand very long. And similarly, we have these muscle cables that support our body bridge, which consists of our bones and joints. So in this case, if these cables are getting tighter and tighter, because we’re always like this, hunched over our computers and in our cars, over time, these are going to shorten and the upper back are actually going to overstretch, which gets into the whole idea. Some people are like, “Well, isn’t it good to stretch everything?”
Or some people might not say that either, but what happens in this scenario is tight and short on upper front and overstretch on upper back. That’s what we’re practicing eight hours a day, 2,900 hours a year. So this is another stupidly simple position to counteract internally rotated and upper front muscles that are shortened and these are overstretched. So to describe it a little better, what you’re going to do is open-
Steven Sashen:
Wait, hold on, hold on. I just like that you made a point to talk about peroneus, but now you’re referring to the upper pec as the upper front.
Bart Potter:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
So clearly, these are two totally different dates that you’re on. One for people who think they’ll be impressed if you know muscle they don’t know about, but then-
Bart Potter:
Or someone would be like, “You’re just full of yourself, stop it. Too much.”
Steven Sashen:
So the movement is…
Bart Potter:
That’s a good point. I tried to, in the book… And sometimes I diverted from that, but I tried to make some of the ideas as simple as possible, and this was one of the upper front muscles, right?
Steven Sashen:
Upper front.
Bart Potter:
So to practice this position, what you’re going to do is you’re going to open… Like you said, open… For people who ever saw that show a long time ago, was it Happy Days? Fonzie, right? Was the thumbs out? Is that right? The thumbs are-
Steven Sashen:
Hold on, it’s a really interesting point. Yeah, when Fonzie was doing thumbs up, it wasn’t straight up, it was a little out. It was a little externally rotated.
Bart Potter:
It was a little out.
Steven Sashen:
I’d never thought about that, which is completely insane.
Bart Potter:
Yeah. So the more you turn your thumbs up and then out, so you’re kind of turning your palms directly up towards the ceiling, essentially. And then the next part of it is I’m pulling my arms straight back, so you could… During your day, let’s say you’ve been sitting for a couple hours, you could get up and do this practice position to counteract what you’ve just been practicing at your computer for two hours. And so when we’re trying to create better muscle balance, it’s really simple. All we’re trying to do, lots of times, is practice the opposite of the repetitive thing that we’ve been doing for a lot of the day. So if we’ve been this way, internally rotated shorter upper front, now we’re going to practice external rotation, stretching upper front, and actually shortening upper back. It’s the opposite.
Steven Sashen:
How do you feel about adding resistance to things like this, like using a rubber band or if a cable machine using weights in some way?
Bart Potter:
Absolutely. And so I’m definitely not against working out, I guess the only point I was trying to make earlier is that you don’t have to do it. If you improve body mechanics, you can move around and do lots of things to gain those types of benefits outside of the gym. But yeah, I like to work out, and that’s a great exercise you’re talking about to do, where you’re like… You have a cable with some weight and you’re pulling towards you and you’re squeezing essentially and tightening these upper back muscles, because these muscles up here are the counterbalance for all of your arm and shoulder movements. So every time you’re moving and using your arm, these are working to keep the shoulder stable and functional.
Steven Sashen:
It’s interesting. So I was an All-American gymnast way back when, I don’t know any gymnast who makes it out of that without bad shoulders, at least one. And when I first got diagnosed as needing a rotator cuff repaired 25 years ago, I put it off until three years ago, and I’ve had limited mobility. If I tried to put my hand behind my back, I could barely do it with my injured shoulder side, which is my right side. And then I don’t know where I got the idea, a couple of years ago, I just decided to start doing a whole bunch of chin-ups. And so I put up chin up bar… Elaine and I, we have… Our second bedroom is our TV/guest room, and then there’s a bathroom off it. So I put a chin-up bar in the doorway to the bathroom.
So obviously, I went in and out of it a dozen times a day, and every time I went in, I would do just like five chin-ups. And I really emphasized what you just said, that really working on the upper back, rather than thinking of it as a bicep exercise. And I don’t know why I thought to do this, I wasn’t thinking of it as a rehab thing. I just had the idea, “I want to do more stuff.” And what I noticed is that my upper back started getting stronger, my shoulders started moving into a different position, and I started getting more flexibility from building the strength back there, which is counterintuitive. Well, most people would think it’s counterintuitive. It makes sense, given what you just said, but it seemed odd that I was getting more flexible by getting stronger.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, that is super cool. And that speaks to just the desire and openness to try a variety of movement, too. Sometimes you could be surprised, by incorporating variety, the benefits that can create for your body. You just did it intuitively.
Steven Sashen:
Well, and to that point, I got into something about six weeks ago. I’ve owned some kettlebells for a while, I used them mostly for just doing kettlebell swings or doing single-leg deadlifts, but then I got inspired to try an actual kettlebell workout, and I’d never really done one before. And it’s a whole bunch of really unusual movement patterns that it’s not like going to the gym, by any stretch. I’m not doing bicep curls, I’m not doing tricep push downs, I’m not doing bench presses. I’m not doing any of those, quote, “Normal things.” And yet, my whole body is acting as if I have. I mean, the most interesting to me is what’s happening with my biceps. And it’s interesting, because I’m not doing any exercises with the kettlebell that involve bending and flexing my arm. In any way that’s against resistance. I mean, basically, the only time I’m bending my arm, if you’re doing…
For people who are into kettlebells, a kettlebell clean, but that’s weightless. It’s not like I’m pulling and doing resisted bicep work. Most of what’s happening is actually just trying to hold this thing, hold the kettlebell, without it flying out of your hand. And so it’s fascinating to see. I’m not doing any bench press stuff, but it’s affecting my chest. I’m not doing any… Fill in the blank. I’m not doing an exercise for that body part, and yet that body part’s being affected, or not doing the normal exercise for that body part. So the new movement pattern thing is really interesting to me lately.
Bart Potter:
And it’s fun, too, right? It feels different-
Steven Sashen:
It’s really satisfying. It’s also… Pardon me one second. It’s really satisfying, it’s also really annoying at first, because until you figure out how to do things correctly, you’re banging a giant metal ball into your forearms. But once you’ve figure out the technique, it becomes pretty effortless, which is really enjoyable.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, that sounds cool.
Steven Sashen:
When people come to see you, what are they typically coming for? How do they find you?
Bart Potter:
Clients or readers?
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. Both, actually.
Bart Potter:
Both? Yeah. One thing I do with my website that I’m really enjoying doing is I do a blog, I do a monthly email tip, and so my website’s definitely the resource, jiffybody.com.
Steven Sashen:
How do you think people are bumping into that? I mean, people like to think that the internet is an, “If you build it, they will come,” thing, which is not the case. So how are they finding you or what do you think they’re looking for when they find you?
Bart Potter:
Yeah, and you’re absolutely right. For me, it’s all through initially direct interaction, either working one-on-one with people, I also do public speaking with larger groups of people, I’ve worked with smaller companies working with employees who found, excuse me, the tactics are really useful for preventing repetitive use problems in the office. So yeah, no one’s just finding me out of the blue. It’s all initially through direct interaction. I help one person, they’re like, “Hey, you should talk to Bart.” Or I go talk to a group of people and people are like, “Hey, this is simple and it makes sense,” and that’s a cool thing I really like about what I teach, is it’s super simple, to the point that sometimes people learn this and they’re like, “Yeah, that’s just logical.” It’s not rocket science.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, it’s funny. I like to say humans have been wearing footwear since they’ve been human beings, and what we talk about is not rocket science or, as they said 1,000 years ago, “It’s not rock science.” So I’m trying to think. So we’ve talked about the angle a bit and lower leg, we’ve talked about the upper body. What are the other things that people come to you for that you may have some insight to share that could be useful?
Bart Potter:
Absolutely. Initially, most of my clients are body issues like aches, pain, stiffness, swelling, nerve impingement, and joint problems. That’s one part of it. And then the other part, which I really enjoy working with, is people who just want better performance. So it could be an athlete who wants to improve function while they’re playing and also to prevent injuries. And it could just be people who want to keep doing their favorite activities, so it could be someone like you, you’re a sprinter, right? So you’re motivated to do things, so you can perform at a high level. So I could have an athlete like that, or it could be a grandparent who wants to be able to play with their grandkids on the floor.
Steven Sashen:
Well, this is going to sound silly perhaps to some people, but do you treat those two different groups of people differently or are they basically the same kind of thing just with different applications?
Bart Potter:
They are. We are all the same kind of thing in one sense. There’s three main principles I teach people. One is to improve muscle balance, one is to practice and improve joint range of motion if it’s lacking, and the third is to identify and improve weak points. So someone who’s really highly functional might be further ahead, right? They might have more complete, better range of motion for all their major joints and muscle groups, but the same principles benefit everyone. But yeah, you have to tailor it to the individual.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, going back to the very beginning of our conversation and just the teaser about working out, it occurs to me that one of the problems that I see with people who do workout, whatever that looks like, whether it’s doing CrossFit or just weightlifting or even yoga, I see people who are… How do I want to put this? Either they have or they adopt bad movement patterns, because they’re just trying to get the reps in or that they just don’t even know what good form looks like. There’s subtle things. I’m going to use bench pressing as an example, where most people don’t think about… Most people, when they think about bench pressing, just think about pushing, just think about basically doing a pushup. But if you’re going to bench press really effectively, the first thing you do, and this comes back to something else we were saying, is pull your shoulders back and try to squeeze your shoulders together, because that makes your shoulders more stable, it shortens the range of motion, it makes you much stronger.
And many people, when they think about bench pressing, they imagine the bar coming up near their clavicle, and when the bar touches your chest, it should be nipple level, which seems odd, because it seems farther down. But those two little cues and then what you do with your feet, actually, is really important for bench pressing also. So there’s three little cues that, if you give people, it can make them, quote, “Instantly stronger.” And what that really means is you’re putting yourself in just a better biomechanical position. But because they don’t know that, haven’t looked at that, they have the idea that they… “Look, how hard is it to push something? I know how to push something.” So either they develop a bad pattern or they’ll do too many reps and start to get tired and just try to get that last rep out, and all hell breaks loose. Or they have some imbalance or some problematic motor pattern to begin with that just gets exacerbated by doing something that’s that kind of activity.
And people just don’t know that there’s different things. Do you find people getting resistant to the idea of… With your work, I’m going to refer to it… I’ll say it this way. It’s not accurate, but just for the fun of this part of the conversation. Do you find people have a hard time adjusting to the doing less phenomenon?
Bart Potter:
Yeah, I mean… I think there is definitely that desire, and it’s, I’m sure, more common with people who go to the gym. In that mindset, you have to work harder to improve, just work harder or hurt more. That pain being involved with it, but what you pointed out. With the upper back and how just creating a stronger back is going to make you a better bench presser is a really great solution to that. The guy I learned from actually, initially, was… He played in the NFL and he was a super heavyweight powerlifter.
Steven Sashen:
What a riot.
Bart Potter:
And unfortunately, he’s no longer living, but I remember him talking about powerlifting moves all the time. In particular, the bench press. And talking about how people neglect to train their back.
Steven Sashen:
There’s another counterintuitive weightlifting thing that I didn’t know for years, which is people who get a weightlifting belt, they think that the idea is make it really tight, and that’s somehow providing support. But the reality, just for the fun of doing this, for people who wear a weightlifting belt who don’t know, the whole point of the weightlifting belt is not to hold you in, but so that you have something to push against when you’re squatting or deadlifting, so that you’re creating a stronger core by pushing out, instead of trying to suck something in and create some support from wearing a belt. It’s really just a cue to make everything around your entire body, front and back, more solid when you’re doing something like squatting or deadlifting, because it’s something that people tend to forget. They think about the weight, they don’t think about, “What’s the most important piece that’s going to then move this?”
So weightlifting belts are… Again, people mostly use them upside down as they make it really tight, instead of pushing against it. I know I’ve said that now six times. So I love the fact that he came out of a powerlifting background, because boy, talk about a place where you need to figure out how to be the most efficient. I mean, that’s it. It’s not just strong, it’s strong in exactly the right way. Some of those guys are amazing.
Bart Potter:
Absolutely. And even things that people wouldn’t normally associate with better strength or even necessarily function. Some athletes might not do this, but if you can just train your stabilizers in your shoulder, you’re going to have a more stable ball and socket joint, which means you can drive forward better. Just like with that one with the feet, you can create a smoother tracking pattern by activating these peroneus and tibialis muscles and you can drive forward more effectively. And sometimes those are the little things that people that we’re looking, it could be an athlete that may not think on that level, “How do I create better joint stability and stabilizers?” Or it could be someone much older. Lots of times, you might think that it’s just impossible. They can’t have a better function, maybe they’re too old and they just can’t do it, but sometimes the solution can be just so simple that, once they learn it and practice it, they’re like, “Okay, this is easy.”
Steven Sashen:
You reminded me, I met these two women, they’re twins, who were in Cirque du Soleil, and they created a training program based on what they were doing with Cirque du Soleil that was all just about that upper back and just getting those shoulders back in position and working on all the stabilizer muscles, because they found, similar to what you’ve been talking about, that so many of Cirque du Soleil athletes came in and just did whatever it took to get through the move, but they didn’t have a stable structure to do it, so that’s why they were seeing really, really high injuries. And so they created this whole program to basically try to make you as bulletproof as possible for the incredibly demanding schedule and just the demands of these amazing activities that these Cirque athletes were doing.
And you would never think that these people at the top of their game are walking in, essentially, with a bad foundation to begin with. But that’s what they were seeing and then they created this whole program. I hadn’t thought about this. I met them, geez, this was 20 plus years ago. I hadn’t thought about it in quite a while.
Bart Potter:
Yeah. I found the same thing, that sometimes people are really surprised I can walk them through… It’s a really easy 10-minute system that I teach to improve body mechanics, essentially, and I can take them through roughly 17 to 20 practice positions and I can tell them what is hurt or where their injury was. They don’t have to tell me a word, I could just guide them through the system and, afterwards, I can go, “Yeah, your shoulder or your knee,” or whatever it is. Because sometimes they’re the best athletes in the world, but they might not have some of that information that could really benefit them, and it’s easy to improve.
Steven Sashen:
So give me an example of walking somebody through the program and what you see and how they respond. And of course, the magic question that I imagine people are asking is, “Can you self-diagnose this and do it on your own without you watching?”
Bart Potter:
Yeah, absolutely. So that’s the intent of the system, it’s self diagnostic. Like a 28-point inspection for a car, right? Before you race it around the track, you want to find out what the weak points are on the car, and tune it up. Similarly, with this system, people can walk through the practice positions and feel the difference. Like you were mentioning, from one side to the other, whether it was a dominant side or not. Okay, so this is one of the practice positions, another really easy one. I’m practicing rotation to activate my rotator cuff muscles that keep the shoulder stable. So this is a really simple one I’ve shown people before, it could be someone incredibly strong and they might notice they have restricted range of motion in their left shoulder. They may go, “Wow, I can’t externally rotate as well on my left side.” So already they’ve identified a weak point. They’re like, “Yeah, this is the shoulder I hurt five years ago.” It always correlates past injury to restricted range of motion.
So it’s very easy to walk through the system and go, “Okay.” Same thing with the toe circles. One ankle has restricted range of motion, that was the one I turned on a pothole however long ago. Because usually what happens when you’ve had an injury, even a minor injury, the body will compensate and gather restrict motion in that area.
Steven Sashen:
I noticed a thing that especially… I used to do a bunch of long meditation courses and I used to notice that, after a few days… My right shoulder was the one that was out of whack, but what I noticed is that most of the tension was in my upper back, on the left side, because it was trying to hold everything in place from the other side.
Bart Potter:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
And the first time I discovered that was shocking, that my left side was tighter than my right, when it was my right side that was the one that was all out of whack.
Bart Potter:
Yeah. That brings up the point, too, when you try… Say you were sitting like that for a couple of days.
Steven Sashen:
Yes.
Bart Potter:
Even that, it’s like a repetitive activity, trying to hold pushing your body to hold this position, which can be really hard. So that can be a beautiful thing, though, when you try different movements, you gain body knowledge, because you’ll notice, “This one part is not working as well as the other side. Why is that?”
Steven Sashen:
Well, that’s an interesting point you just made, and you alluded to it earlier. For whatever reason, we stop playing as we get older, we stop trying all these new things, and we lose a certain… I don’t mean flexibility in the, “Can you do the splits?” But just flexibility in the opportunity or the options that are available to us, because we haven’t played with them, we haven’t tried them, we haven’t used them in a while, and I’m intrigued by that. I don’t really even have a fully formed thought. I mean, I’m having a good time now learning how to do kettlebell things, sprinting a horse is a whole new game.
I got back into… There’s an archery range down the street, I went and did some target shooting, which I hadn’t done since I was, oh, my God, I don’t know, 12 or something. And just learning all these new things. I always find it really entertaining, but I also know that, even with the things that I’m doing, there’s probably a giant list of movement patterns that I’m unaware that I’m unaware of. That I haven’t done and I don’t even know that they are possibilities. And I keep thinking of… Your program opens up people to some ideas of some of those movement patterns, but I keep thinking, A, what does it take to get people to discover these and be able to use them and enjoy them? And it’s something I asked somebody a while ago. Imagine if, to graduate high school, you had to be able to do a round off back handspring or a cartwheel, or something that’s not a normal movement pattern, something…
And maybe there’s 10 different things that you could pick, but you have to demonstrate some proficiency in learning some new and unusual movement to graduate high school. So I think about what happens as we grow up, what we are presented with and aren’t presented with, and then, as we get older, how we tend to get more limited and what to do about that.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s our modern lifestyle, too, in a way is really what starts to close us in, because it’s so… We don’t have to move for survival, so the more we sit and… Hey, this couch is great, but we spend a lot of our life sedentary and we don’t have to have variety of movement for survival, and the way it goes is, generally, the less you use variety of movement in joint range of motion, the more likely you are to lose joint range of motion. And when you lose joint range of motion, you’re more likely to have body issues like aches, pain, stiffness, swelling, nerve impingement, and joint problems. So the big problem that happens for us, even if someone suddenly decides, “Hey, I want to go do all these fun things,” they might’ve created a challenging situation with their body to be able to get out and do those things without having problems.
Steven Sashen:
Well, this is the fundamental problem, is that our brain’s idea of what our body is and can do is completely different than reality, especially as we get older. I mean, in my head, I’m still basically 25 to 32, somewhere in that range. And then I go work out or do the kettlebell thing, or whatever it is I’m doing, and find out that, no, I’m pretty solidly 58.
Bart Potter:
I was going to say, what’s cool is you’re pushing yourself or you’re pointing yourself in a direction where you’re challenging your body and you’re still doing that variety of movement and it’s really beneficial, and you might bump up against the wall here and there, but it’s super beneficial.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I have a thing. I used to have a note that I wrote on my wall that said, “Distrust symmetry.” And of course, the two words were in different fonts. I try to be hyper aware of where things get into patterns, where things get stuck or in a loop, so I noticed years ago how I put on my pants, whichever leg I used first, I don’t even remember anymore. For a while ago, I noticed which way I crossed my arms and I started practicing crossing them the other way, and I realized just now I don’t remember which one is my preferred one. And when I’m sitting, I’m constantly changing that. A lot of people, if they’re watching me changing which way I press my arms, try it, because most people can’t do it. I’m not trying to show off or anything, it’s just that we don’t do it.
I play with different ways of… I sit on the ground a lot and I play with different ways of getting up off the ground, just because I just notice, for whatever reason, when something gets too familiar… I do this with thinking as well, but with body stuff in particular, it just gets too familiar or I just get curious at some point for reasons that I don’t understand, and the learning new things is both fascinating and annoying, because we know that, when you’re going to go to learn a new thing, you’re going to be uncoordinated and feel like a moron, and we don’t like doing that, but that’s just the effect of trying to lay down new neural pathways. But it’s like, if you can get through that initial awkward phase, then it’s super fun, and I’ve been thinking about…
I can’t remember what I was thinking lately, just a handful of activities that I imagine wanting to try that are new movement patterns. And this is going to sound crazy and a lot of people… There’s some people who aren’t going to like this at all, but I’m going to say it. I’ve been totally fascinated with the idea of learning how to fire a sniper rifle, which is the opposite of a lot of moving. It’s trying to get as still as possible. I’m not looking to shoot anything or anyone, but the idea… It’s such an amazing practice. Whatever control it takes to do that, or opening up and relaxing that it takes to do that, to shoot a target that’s a mile away, that strikes me as a really interesting… It’s like the exact opposite of learning to tap dance or swing kettlebells, or whatever it is.
But just again, I get really interested in some new thing that seems completely out of whack. Maybe I got the idea after watching American Sniper, the sitting there for hours and hours and hours just waiting and trying to be alert. That does not seem at all interesting, but the idea of mastering something that precise, I mean, that’s really what that’s all about. And I guess… I just realized as I was saying this, my brain is not precise, I keep piles of things everywhere, I’m not well-organized, but all the things I like to do physically, typically, are very precise. Sprinting, very precise. Archery, target shooting, even weightlifting, very precise. So I think it’s an interesting dichotomy, that my brain does one thing, my body likes something completely different.
Bart Potter:
Right, right. Well, and the good thing is you have this motivation, you enjoy these activities, and that’s pushing you out there to use your body, essentially. That’s a key ingredient, I find, with people who are successful, who I’m teaching the system to create better body mechanics is, initially… Let’s say they just have aches and pains and they want to get rid of them, right? And they do, and they’re able to feel better. Well, that’s great, but that’s not enough motivation to keep practicing and improving body mechanics or get out there and use their body, and that’s what the key thing is long-term for dramatically better body function, is to work a little bit every day on your body mechanics, but then get out there and do fun activities like you’re doing, essentially. And that’s a really good formula for success.
Steven Sashen:
What’s been really satisfying with Xero Shoes is, of course, everything we’re saying is… What I say, applies, “Feet first,” is actually getting your body to move and feeling things and getting all those new movement patterns. And we hear over and over and over from people who, once they do that, start just getting… Not inherently, that’s not the word I’m looking for. Intrinsically motivated to just do something else. My favorite version of this actually was not even from a Xero Shoes person, but there’s a doctor in Brazil named Isabel Sacco who put minimalist footwear on a bunch of elderly women and just said, “Wear these and let’s see what happens,” basically. And what she found… One thing was their knee osteoarthritis was either eliminated or greatly improved, but a bunch of these women who had had mobility issues up until that point, who then suddenly started getting more mobility after they started using their feet, some of them got interested in running 5K races, some of them got interested…
I mean, they suddenly had this new idea, this new sense of possibility to do new things just because they got their feet moving more, which is just one of my favorites.
Bart Potter:
Yeah, that’s the perfect recipe, really. Your shoe helps improve natural movement, so then people are feeling better because they are using movement more, and then they’re like, “I want to do something fun,” and then keep doing a greater variety of movement and it just creates a ball rolling downhill kind of thing.
Steven Sashen:
Well, or whatever the effortless version of a ball rolling uphill would be. We’ll have to figure out… We have to find the right metaphor for that.
Bart Potter:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Well, so Bart, is there anything else that you want to share with bipeds about just things to pay attention to or anything about what you’re doing before we pitch you again and tell people where to find out more?
Bart Potter:
Yeah. The ideas… Just this, that the body is really the genius, right? Our bodies are absolutely amazing in what we do, and to point them in the right direction doesn’t really have to be that complicated. Sometimes the simplest solutions can be the most effective, just like you were saying with your footwear. Allow the foot to do what it wants to do. Similarly, with what I teach people, it can be really simple and easy to practice this stuff. The key thing is just that consistency. If you have the motivation, the reason why, and you’re willing to just practice a little bit every day… And what I teach people is a total non-workout. You could do it in the office or at home, you could practice in your pajamas if you want to. It could be totally easy, but you can get dramatically better body function and benefit throughout your lifetime. It doesn’t have to be hard or complicated.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, and the consistency is a really interesting piece and one of the challenges, because we do like variety. I mean, as I’m doing this kettlebell thing, I’m thinking… I’m continually reminded of the first time I did a more intensive weightlifting program, it’s when I was in high school, when I was a gymnast. The first month, which is getting used to the movements, the second month was improving, and it was the third month where I actually started seeing the real benefits. I have no idea if it’s that same three-month schedule now that I’m three times that age, or more than that, but suffice to say, I think people, they often expect certain kinds of changes more quickly than bodies and minds are actually able to change, and getting over that little hump until you start to really…
When things really start to work well, things improve exponentially, but it takes… I’m trying to think of a good analogy for this. It takes a little while for things to ramp up, but then the more they do, the more they do. So it does get a little exponential at a certain point, and it plateaus. But suffice to say, the consistency, I think, is something that I want to emphasize, because many people… And I just feel that in myself, that sometimes it’s really hard after the six to eight-week mark, I can feel my brain going, “I wonder if there’s some other thing that I could…”
Bart Potter:
Yeah, well, and that makes sense. I’ve seen that with lots of people. And like I say, sometimes people just come to me for pain issues, and once they get better, then they’re like, “I’m fixed, I don’t have to practice anything anymore.”
Steven Sashen:
Right.
Bart Potter:
“It’s gone, it’s gone. I’m good, I’m all good.”
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, and that goes back to what you’re saying about the lifestyle we have now, where we’re not engaging in all these different movements all the time. For good reasons. And that’s the other point. I made this argument against somebody who was all about natural movement things and was trying to… Created a program that was supposed to be more about the things that we did 100 or 1,000 or however many years ago. And I said, “It’s not the same as going out for 20 minutes and doing pull-ups on a tree as it is walking down to the river and bringing back bricks or rocks that you’re going to use to build a home just for hours and hours and hours for days and days and days.” We just literally can’t really simulate the way these things originally worked, because we’re just not living in that world anymore, so we are doing kind of the best we can. Of course, that goes back to the consistency point.
We used to do this stuff all day every day, because it’s what we needed to live, and now I hope people can find a thing where they recognize the value of it and keep doing that all day every day. Not all day, but every day, as if it was something you needed to do to live. But mostly now, it has to be motivated by enjoyment, because it’s not motivated by necessity.
Bart Potter:
Yeah. And those are the people I’m seeing who learn this Jiffy Body system who want to keep going. Generally, they’ll feel better really quickly, just by going through it even one or two times. And as long as there’s a payoff consistently, then that creates that motivation to keep going. Those are the people that have success and just use it for years, but there definitely has to be a payoff. Either it gets you out, so you can do what you love to do, or you feel better right away. You notice something that’s working pretty quickly.
Steven Sashen:
That’s great. Well, Bart, thank you so much for all of this. So once again, here, I’ll just do it for people who want to find you, jiffybody.com, J-I-F-F-Y-B-O-D-Y.com. Is there anywhere else that people should look for you or anything you’re doing?
Bart Potter:
That’s it, primarily. That’s where I focus on. I mean, I have a Facebook business page with the same name, but generally, I put out free information through the website. If someone wants to email me, [email protected], I’ll send them a free practice plan, so they can try some of this stuff out. Yeah, I have one for… It’s called Sitting Break Better Posture Practice, and it just will teach you four practice positions you can use that you could use at the office, or wherever, to create that better muscle balance, practice a little joint range of motion, and you’ll feel better right away after you’ve been sitting for a long time.
Steven Sashen:
That’s great. You surprised me with something I didn’t know you had. Well, so I hope people do take advantage of that and drop Bart an email and go to his website. Bart, once again, thank you so much. Not only for this, but also your support over the years. For everybody else, if you haven’t go over to… If you want to find out more about what we’re doing here with the podcast, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, and that’s where you can find previous episodes and all the different ways to interact with the content, all the different places that we’re posting. You can leave reviews, you can do all those things you know how to do. Again, like and thumbs up and hit the bell on YouTube, and like I said, leave reviews, et cetera. If you have any questions for me or any recommendations, anyone you think that should be on the show, or anyone who you think vehemently disagrees with me who should be on the show, that’d be fun, drop me an email at [email protected]. And most importantly, as always, go out, have fun, and live life feet first.
Bart Potter:
Thanks.