Discover the art and science of kettlebell training for a unique fitness experience unlike any other.

In this episode of the The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen interviews Denis Vasilev, MA, 11x Kettlebell World Champion, IKO Master Coach and Founder, who dives into the world of resistance training. They discuss the profound mental and physical benefits of kettlebell training, emphasizing the importance of consistency and strategic workout scheduling. Through Denis’s expertise and passion for coaching, listeners are encouraged to explore the artistic and challenging nature of kettlebell sport to enhance their fitness levels and achieve personal milestones.

Key Takeaways:

→ How resistance training is crucial for building muscle mass and longevity.

→ Why consistency in training is key and how just three workouts a week can lead to significant results.

→ How engaging in kettlebell training is achieved by utilizing gravity and body weight shifts.

→ Why your training progression with kettlebells should start light by mastering technique and gradually increasing weight.

→ How proper weigh distribution allows individuals to adjust their body position and maintain the correct form.

Denis Vasilev is a globally recognized Kettlebell Sport athlete, coach, and educator with over 25 years of experience in the discipline. Beginning his Kettlebell Sport journey at the age of 16 in 1999, Denis has become one of the most decorated athletes in the sport’s history. He has earned prestigious ranks, including Master of Sport International Class, and competed for the Russian National Kettlebell Sport Team from 2008 to 2015, performing at the highest professional level worldwide. Denis holds a Master’s Degree in Physical Education & Sport Pedagogy from Lesgaft National State University in St. Petersburg and has been coaching athletes since 2009. He is the founder of the International Kettlebell Organization (IKO) and the Kettlebell Sport World League. Additionally, Denis is the creator of BELLEVATOR, a premium line of kettlebell sport belts and apparel, continuing to lead and inspire the Kettlebell Sport community worldwide.

Connect With Denis:

Website: https://www.denisvasilevkettlebell.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/denisvasilevkettlebell/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DenisVasilevKettlebell

Connect with Steven:

Website

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Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen
It’s no secret that resistance training is really important for building muscle mass and actually for longevity as well. And but what if that weight set you have gathering dust in your garage is probably better? Gathering dust in your garage because there’s an option that you might like even better that could be just as effective, much more fun, much more interesting for sure. And well, anyway, let’s find out about that on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first. You know, those things that are at the end of your legs. Here we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or play or do yoga or CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do and to do that effectively and efficiently and enjoyably. And I say enjoyably because you’re not having a good time doing it. You’re not going to keep doing it. So keep that in mind, especially on today’s podcast. I’m Stephen Sashin, co founder, chief barefoot officer here at Xero Shoes and we call this the Movement Movement because we that includes you. More about that in a second. Are creating a movement about natural movement, making more and more people aware about how to what the benefits are of using your body the way it’s designed to be used. Now this part about we it’s really pretty simple. Just you know, give us a thumbs up and a like and a hit the bell icon on YouTube and well go to our website www.jointhemovementmovement.com so you can subscribe, hear about upcoming episodes, see all the previous episodes, find out other places you get on the podcast if you didn’t like where you got it this time. In short, you know what it’s, what do I mean? Just if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe and let’s have a good time. So speaking of having a good time, Dennis, do me a favor, tell people who you are and what you’re doing here.

Denis Vasilev
I’m a L time world champion in cannibal sport, doing it since 1999, so it will be 26 years soon and on. I won my first World Championship 2008 and I never lost since then. I’m 42 years old now and well, I’m officially retired from, you know, competing on the for a national team, but I’m still lifting as heavy double 32 kilogram kettlebells and just enjoying enjoying the ride really transitioning to coach. Well, in fact I’m doing coaching for a while.

Denis Vasilev
Since 2010 and.

Denis Vasilev
I just really not just passionate about, you know, sport and excited to leave myself. But I’m, I’m really happy to share, to share my journey and I really enjoy the coaching and I guess that’s probably the reason why here together because when you’re doing it for a long while you’re going to such, you know, fine details as well, shoe wear, you know, even if you’re doing a cattle sport where you might think that, well, maybe that’s not the, you know, thing to worry about, but.

Denis Vasilev
It’S, it’s all comes to fine details, etc. Actually.

Steven Sashen
So there’s a couple things that I need to address because you already did a lot that I want to, I want to dive into. First things first. As people can tell from your accent, you’re from Georgia in America or North Carolina.

Steven Sashen
From Russia. When did you move to the States?

Denis Vasilev
2017.

Steven Sashen
Oh, brilliant. And so where actually are you now?

Denis Vasilev
In Bay Area.

Steven Sashen
Brilliant. And for people who aren’t watching this and I, I wish that you would be. One of the things that I love about Dennis is his background where there’s a skeleton. Not only is there a skeleton hanging in the background, but he has a skeleton where there’s some muscles that are, and ligaments and that are attached. So he can show you things about how your body is supposed to work that might actually be counterintuitive from the way you’ve been taught. But we might get to that later. Either way, I just like that there’s a skeleton hanging behind you next. So obviously we’re talking about kettlebells for people who don’t know, which means they’ve been living under a rock or living under a kettlebell and not knowing it. Can you tell everyone what a kettlebell is and where they came from? And I’ll, I mean you know a story that I have about first finding out about them but describe what, what a kettlebell is and we’ll start there and then I’ll have a follow up question for that one.

Denis Vasilev
Well, kettlebell is a metal ball with a, with a handle. And as far as, as far as I know that it’s. Well, it’s just a tool of, to measure a weight and it exists from ancient times and even there’s some examples a museum of like a rock, cattle balls kind of like also like a ball shape with a handle. And.

Denis Vasilev
Well they, they went to somewhat, you know, look, we know them now in the end of 19th century. And well, again from what I’ve learned that in.

Denis Vasilev
Marketplaces, you know, we used to wait, rice, meat, whatever, and looks like.

Denis Vasilev
What. What story tells that after the. The market was over, so the salesman was like just start wanting to have maybe a little bit fun afterwards. So they start like, well, lifting, juggling. This bell sent. I think. I think juggling is the oldest kind of athletic use of a kettlebell and was in circus like also like started I think from the end of the 19th century and you know, till. Till this day.

Denis Vasilev
And it formed the gettable sport Late 40s in Soviet army as just a cheap and useful tool to keep soldiers, you know, in shape. So they carry it and then they lifting it. So you don’t need much of equipment really to do it. And I believe first world championship happens in 1991 in catal sport. So.

Denis Vasilev
It exists for about 75 years.

Steven Sashen
So I’m gonna. I’m gonna come back to the kettlebell sport. But before we get there, some people will think that instead of having a kettlebell, you could just use a. Pardon me, I got the hiccups. You could just use a dumbbell. Can you explain what makes using a kettlebell different than using a dumbbell?

Denis Vasilev
Well, the dumbbell. Well, the way. The way that the tool shape, the center of gravity is lower. So.

Denis Vasilev
Well, it’s.

Denis Vasilev
It’s a good question.

Steven Sashen
Well, you’re basically, you’re. You’re basically on it. I mean, with a dumbbell, you’re holding the handle and the weight is basically at the same level as your hand. But with the kettlebell depending. Well, it will be extended out from your hand. And whether the kettlebell is hanging down or out in front head, it’s just in a different position, which just from my experience, it just. It forces you to pay attention to balance and stability in a way that is very, very different than with a dumbbell. Dumbbell you have much more room for error and kettlebell much less room for error. But in a way that actually is. Is stressing your body.

Steven Sashen
I don’t want to say more beneficially, although I could make that argument, but definitely in a way that is unique and feels more like it’s engaging your whole body because of that asymmetry than with a dumbbell. That’s my version. You can feel free to ball is.

Denis Vasilev
Also meant to be like carried on for longer sets. I like.

Denis Vasilev
Because once you pointed out this question. It’s a great question because I love dumbbells.

Denis Vasilev
Done deal. Fair amount of work with double dumbbells. But kettlebell. Kettlebell can replace dumbbells in many exercises we know, you know, like bicep scrolls and.

Denis Vasilev
Like different presses. But what’s unique about kettlebell is that.

Denis Vasilev
Well, I guess because. Because the body is below the handle so it can be placed more comfortably.

Denis Vasilev
Well or for this matter the balanced a bit better. Like even if it’s overhead. So it’s like a. Well at least two points of connection. So when the. But when it’s a dumbbell so it’s just a road with the weights and so that’s, you know, it’s a challenge for your wrist to do balance it. And with skateboard, well it’s a handle but then the body also attached below the wrist. So it’s like let’s say when you perform something like even fitness exercises like a Turkish get ups, I think cattle ball is, is more comfortable to balance well. And plus this also the center of gravity is lower. Right. So if, if dumbbell is like two weights on the side of the. Of the hand. So it’s, it’s way more challenging to. To stabilize it. And with kettlebell it’s two points of connection and the weight is like basically on the middle of your forearm is much lower. So that’s why it’s, it’s much, much easier. Well, and what, what, what makes. Because. Well it’s just a tool. It’s just a weight that you can lift and you can be creative about it. And it’s, it’s numerous amount of exercises probably exist with kettlebell, but kettlebell sport is very few exercises and there were specific conditions how you lift and you’re not allowed to put the bell down while you perform again. You eventually like the whole goal of preparation is to last for 10 minutes straight. And that requires well that puts like certain.

Denis Vasilev
Requirements on your conditioning and your practice. Like you need to develop certain flexibility and endurance and mindset to lift itself.

Steven Sashen
So you made a really interesting point and it was. What I like about it is I wasn’t thinking about when you have the kettlebell overhead. So when the kettlebell is overhead you’re holding the handle, but the body of the kettlebell is below your hand when your hand is above your head. So that does make things more balanced. But when I’m thinking about the place times where the kettlebell is extending out from your body, that’s where the balance is different. And yeah, the idea that with a dumbbell you’re working with stability because just kind of rotational stability when the, when the dumbbell is over your head, which you don’t have to do with a kettlebell. So that’s an interesting things. So the idea is, I mean my comment that you can throw your weight set, that it’s gathering dust away, obviously I’m being a little hyperbolic, but it is the difference in how you feel when you’re doing those two things is significant and the amount that you’re lifting can be different. But let’s since you brought up kettlebell sport, so describe for people what those exercises are that you’re doing with kettlebell sport and what it looks like when you’re trying to do that for, for you know, say 10 minutes straight and that alone, I mean just starting there. Nobody thinks about typically lifting weights, barbell and dumbbell for non stop for 10 minutes. But this is part of the kettlebell sport and part of what even people who aren’t competing are doing with kettlebell is doing longer duration activities that can be more full body more often than not. So describe the exercises and then what a kettlebell sport competition looks like.

Denis Vasilev
Well, we can start with snatch. It’s probably most famous exercise and well known exercise in all of the athletic communities and CrossFit community and hard style community. So that’s when initially it’s inspired cattleball sport by Olympic weightlifting. And well, as far as I know it’s formed in Soviet Union and it was patronized by Olympic Weightlifting Federation. So there was basically kind of like mimicking exercises just replace the tool. And so back then Olympic weightlifting had three exercises. Jerk, snatch and press. And so originally kettlebell sport also was consisting of three exercises. Jerk, snatch and press. But jerk and press was done with two kettlebells simultaneously and snatch. And actually that’s interesting because well.

Denis Vasilev
Officially snatch done with, with one by one hand with one kettlebell and you switch hands halfway. Well you, you can switch hands only once. So it’s, you have 10 minutes and you can switch hands only once. But when exactly you do it, it’s it’s up to you. And of course eventually what happens, you know, with professionals that their left and right arm get more and more identical technique wise and results wise. On the beginning it’s very different. It can be like 50 vs 100 reps. But looks like at the beginning when they were testing the exercises, they’ve tried double snatch and it dies out, which probably a good thing because it’s a really tough one. But now it’s kind of getting back in the form of they call it double half snitch where you snatch two bells over the head both from the, from the Ground from between legs to overhead and then you drop it. Well, it’s called direct fixation. It’s not really the chest, maybe we’ll get to that. But we’ll land the Kelvin on the stomach and then you swing it and you snatch it all the way to the top again.

Steven Sashen
So, so let me interrupt right there. So if you’re doing so two things when you’re doing the competition. Is it just one exercise, one lift at a time or is it a sequence?

Denis Vasilev
So.

Denis Vasilev
Snitch is one exercise, Jerk is the second exercise.

Denis Vasilev
Long cycle, that’s a sword exercise. And it’s youngest exercise that was tested and first.

Denis Vasilev
Used on competitions in 1995 I believe. But it’s gained a huge popularity. It’s it. Well, it’s. It’s arguably the most popular lift in kettlebell sport. It ties with a snatch and long cycle. That’s a clean and jerk. So you clean the belts into the rack and you leave them over the head. And now so we have this three exercises and usually athletes they pick specialization. So it’s almost like in track and field you can be a sprinter or you can be a styer and they all of them doing track and field. So in cattleball sport like myself and most of my achievements goes for long cycle. I feel like that was my thing. And long cycle, it’s almost like kind of like a styres in running. Like long cyclists, they tend to be a little bit more like kind of on athletic side, a little bit like a stronger guys, a little bit maybe even heavier muscular. And well, long cycles are kind of slowest exercise compared to Jerk and Snitch. And then the second event called biathlon where athletes do two exercises. They do jerk first and then they do snitch. And these atlas, they more tended to endurance, endurance and like quite like excellence of a precision. So they, they run much more like about like twice as much as long cyclist.

Denis Vasilev
So.

Denis Vasilev
But lately also.

Denis Vasilev
The sport organizations allow athletes to compete in individual event. So basically you know, you even can go just only with long cycle or lonely with Jorg or only with Snitch. And you can go with all of them at once. And it’s more of a question of like programming and training methodology. But usually, usually you go just with one exercise. So you have 10 minutes. That’s, that’s all what it’s about. It’s quite a, quite a, you know, intense thought. You know, sometimes you’re thinking like you put all this, well like training cycle, like 12 months, 12 weeks of preparation and you’re Flying overseas somewhere, like, far away. And it’s all about 10 minutes. You just step on this classroom and you. To get it done. That’s it.

Steven Sashen
Oh, stop. Stop your whining about 10 minutes. As a sprinter, I’ve got, you know, for an indoor meet, I travel all that way for. For eight seconds.

Denis Vasilev
So, yeah, I don’t want to hear.

Steven Sashen
You pitching about 10 minutes.

Denis Vasilev
Everything is relative. What’s long?

Steven Sashen
Yeah, yeah, My. My entire workout is done before most people have finished warming up or my entire, you know, warmup and competition is done before most people finish warming up. So. So again, for the long cycle. And I want to kind of dive into something here. So to. You’re. You’re swinging the kettle, you’re swinging the bells up to the rack position, which for people who don’t know, and people misunderstand this often, I love if people are watching this when they see you doing it. You’ve got your elbows tucked in your hands and your elbows tucked into your body as tightly as you can. So this is literally like the idea of the rack, I think I love the. The metaphor of that, of if you were taking a barbell and putting it in your rack and it’s being stabilized on. On, you know, some hooks. Same idea there. And from there, you’re, you know, exploding up into that press. And so. But the part before that, to even get into the rack position, this is the thing that I’ve seen so many people do wrong, or so many people do with weights that I can’t figure out why they’re even bothering doing it. Namely, so light, which is just the whole phenomenon of swinging the pedal bells up into that rack position, which involves having the kettlebells think of it like the. I’m going to use an analogy. Please tell me if you would use a different one. But the easiest thing for people to imagine, if they don’t know this is imagine you’ve got the kettlebell in front of your body a few feet. You’re standing with your legs, you know, a little more than shoulder width apart. You grab it and you’re swinging the kettlebell behind you, sort of like hiking a football. But then to get it from there up into that rack position, you’re. You’re using your hips, you’re basically using your hip extension to swing those forward. And the part that people. That I see, that people either get confused or don’t really aren’t taking advantage of it is either a. They think of it more like just doing a squat, where they’re going up and down Instead of having their hips go back and forward. And then other people using a weight that is so light that it’s not giving you anything to actually push against. You’re not getting any real muscle activation when you’re using a light that’s so weight you could basically do it for an hour instead of, you know, something that’s giving you a challenge. Do you want to say anything more about just the whole hip hinge component of kettlebell swing? And then. And then of course the magic question is for competition, is this judged on number of reps and if so, do they disqualify certain reps if you don’t do them properly?

Denis Vasilev
Yes, by number of reps. And they will disqualify you. Yeah. If you will not meet the certain criteria of technique. Like dog fixation. Several. Several things.

Steven Sashen
So you’re yeah. 10 minutes for speed and accuracy. That is. I mean that’s really pushing it.

Denis Vasilev
Well, it’s a cuttable sport. It’s like quite unique because as far as I know it’s only the cyclical sport that uses their weights. So when you’re trying to like compare cattle sport or like see its closest relatives and like naturally people put it into like.

Denis Vasilev
Weightlifting. Well such like power lifting maybe Olympic lifting bodybuilding which is way far off. And the closest will be Olympic rowing actually to like experience and even the kind of the workouts you do.

Steven Sashen
That’s interesting.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah. But so basically the goal is to bring two kettlebells over your head the most efficient way possible. And I think you know, when you look on any exercise it’s technique depends on the goal and like even can take a squats and it can be done like quite. You know, many ways depends, you know like if you Olympic red lifter. So there’s even no questions that your glutes will go to your heels because that’s where barbell pushes you. You want it or not. So it doesn’t matter. It’s good for your bread. You need to practice to go all, all the way down. That’s how your your squats preparation for Libby good lifting looks like and like swing with kettlebell and there’s well hard style swings where it’s. It’s basically kind of like a system of a fitness exercises and hard style swing performed well it’s usually like really low reps probably up to 20 might be mistaken. But low reps like from like very heavy capable like few reps swing to maybe maybe 20. And the goal is to like fires up the glutes and quads as Quick as possible. And the hard style swing missing the behind leg sector of the swing. So it’s kind of the bell stops between, between legs, like drops to the like dead bottom and pulled out of there.

Steven Sashen
And so I want to pause there. So for heartstyle swing, you’re not having the kettlebell come basically behind you between your legs. Okay. So just so even with your feet essentially, and just driving from there.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah. And it’s, it’s great to like activate your muscles right away.

Steven Sashen
Yeah.

Denis Vasilev
And for each goal, I think it’s, it’s, it’s doing it. But in kettlebell sport, because swing is just a part of a clean and then clean is a part of a long cycle and we need to do it for 10. Actually don’t want to feel any glutes activation or, or quartz activation for as long as possible. So that’s why exactly we wants to avoid the vertical trajectories and we kind of wants it to be a pendulum. And so this, this part of the swing behind us helps to like capable naturally kind of slow down and stop and have like a very kind of a smooth, natural like trajectory change.

Denis Vasilev
Smooth change of, of day of direction from, from to forward swing. And then also, well, this, this, this, this, this moment when the bell behind us. So when, when the forward swing starts, cattle naturally kind of by gravity start moving forward. So it’s already a help and then another like a big difference of our of a kettleable sports swing. And actually it’s then transitions to like accelerating pool and the clean that one sketchable pass the knees and start moving ahead of your body. Then you actually shifting the weight on your heels and moving the shoulders like above the heels, behind the heels. Depends how heavy the bells, which mean called a counterbalance. So you apply your body weight to actually pull the bells. And it’s like a constant endless source of a power versus like using your muscles to pull the bell every single time. So that’s what kettlebell lifters do. So really like muscles, they kind of just are following the momentum and counterbalance and doing the steering and like trajectory correction. But it’s all about like balancing and kind of juggling, you know, kettlebell weight versus body weight.

Steven Sashen
No, that’s a really interesting point that you’re obviously trying to be as efficient as possible and so taking advantage of gravity, taking advantage of the shift of weight of your body. But at the same time there’s parts where you’ve got to apply some effort. And especially once you’ve gone to the rack and you’re going for the press. Yeah, there’s not a lot of ways of faking that one.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah, and that’s interesting. Like the way you, you apply the. The force is not like a constant torque but just a flushes of tension and then immediate release and relaxation. So like you swing and you kind of take a breath and then when it’s time to like push you, you like maybe engage your legs and you made the pool. But then while they are moving towards the rig, you can make another inhale and you engage again. So it’s like a constant switch, like many times per repetition of flexion relaxation. Flexion relaxation. So it’s. Well, it’s something that you might not be.

Denis Vasilev
Exactly, you know, able to do even, you know, when you first time trying it and you’re getting better in it, you know, as more your practice. And.

Denis Vasilev
That’S something that athletes of.

Denis Vasilev
Like a sports, like a games or cyclical sports really appreciate when they try capable sport. They feel like it’s a great condition for them versus let’s say just a classic weightlifting where you’re getting strong but you’re kind of losing the speed and.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, well, I love that. I love that idea of just this, this sine wave, this, you know, from effort to relaxation to effort to relaxation. It makes me think that one of the things that makes you better at almost any sport is learning to do less, is learning to apply the right amount of force at the right time and not when you don’t need to. And I like that can. Do you want to comment on just my comments about the kettlebell swing, which is what most people think about when they think about kettlebells. A lot of people.

Steven Sashen
Certain people, I’ll say that differently, get a little nervous actually about doing a snatch or doing a jerk, but just doing the swing and using all that hip hinge and that gluten and quad activation as a metabolic conditioner. But again, a lot of people I’ve seen do it in ways that are certainly not optimal from what we just described about the right use of gravity, et cetera. But it reminds me, you brought up rowing before. It’s like whenever I watch people on television and they’re on a rowing machine, nine out of 10 of them are rowing incorrectly. And it makes my head explode. You know, they’re. They’re basically taking what would be the oars over their knees before extending their knees. And if you were in a. In the water, you would have just stopped yourself. So I’m sure there’s things that you see if you just go into an average gym and watch people doing kettlebell swings that have that same thing like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t do that. Here’s what would make that better for you and more efficient. So do you want to chat about that?

Denis Vasilev
Well, when I think about swings, probably number one advice. Well, safety advice would be a straight back and, and perfect posture and like.

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
Keep the chin well, not high, but well, it certainly. Chin shouldn’t rest on the chest and should be elevated. The neck should be continuation, continuation of the back.

Denis Vasilev
So that’s. Well, well because, well, from what I see is probably the most like fears and skepticism going towards the back that why is it it’s good for my back or not. And when you perform swings, yeah, the back should be straight. And actually you mentioned about the weights and.

Denis Vasilev
Actually to go very light. I think it’s a very good thing at the beginning because that’s how you learn the form.

Denis Vasilev
Correctly. Because when you’re exploring something or you want to change something, while you don’t want to experiment on like a challenging weight because it will be right punish you, you know, much sooner and harder versus whereas the light bell, even if you’ll do some mistake, well, most likely your body will be able to. To handle it. So at the beginning, you know, you just practicing and well belief on word to your coach, you know how it should be done and how you should move and you just do it regardless how. How it feel. And you know, eventually, well, you actually start to notice that, you know, this, this form is. Works and then together, you know, with, with your technique improvement, you’re increasing the weight and getting to the weight that, well, feels like a workout and challenge. So yeah, I.

Denis Vasilev
I think that, you know, of course I don’t see much, you know, reason and effectivity in practicing a very light swing says as a workout, you know, on permanent basis. But I think it’s a good start. And eventually, well, you’re getting, you’re getting heavier.

Steven Sashen
Do you have a, do you have an opinion? Again, another thing that I see an opinion about. So when you’re, when the kettlebell is coming forward in front of your body, how high it should be. In other words, I see some people who start thinking of it like, I don’t even know what you describe it. Like a, almost like a pullover. So they want to, you know, they’re taking their, they’re taking a swing all the way up over their head versus stopping at, you know, say chest level, for example. Do you have thoughts about that?

Denis Vasilev
Yeah. Well, next thing after the posture Is the weight distribution. And it’s the simple way to explain it is you don’t want to roll on your toes so you should remain your heels loaded. And actually well, if you will, you know, paying attention to that well, you will naturally adjust your body position and will keep your shoulders above the heels or behind it. Well and that’s also well adjust the amplitude of the swing. So if you’re not rolling on your toes well, obviously the bell will not be too far away from you, but you also don’t want it to be too close because then counterbalance will not happen. And then. Well.

Denis Vasilev
I honestly.

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
I wanted to say that I like exercises that have static phase because then it can be done for higher repetitions and well, back squats have a static face. You know, it’s a like when you’re the top fixation. You lock your knees in, you can, you can load your frame swing. There is no static face in sweep and it’s kind of like.

Denis Vasilev
Movement of a momentum but there’s no static face in it. And.

Denis Vasilev
It’S obviously.

Denis Vasilev
You, you know, each next rep getting, getting harder. There’s no way out of it. You know, there’s no really place to like catch your breath. Well, to swing and pull and where you kind of release the. The kettlebell a little then swing it again. It might help you to last a little bit longer and if you use a counterbalance. But I like cleans much better than swing. Like honestly. Well, I know what the swing is because it’s a part of the clean. But I never practice it as an exercise ever really. Like, I just, I just don’t see.

Denis Vasilev
How it can be like benefit. Well, I’m not saying that it’s. That it’s useless exercise. Well, at least. Okay, be more specific. Like as a kettlebell sport athlete, I don’t see.

Denis Vasilev
Much of a benefit of me practicing swing. Swing only. And I do practice swing and pull when I do snatch. But it’s a bit different because.

Denis Vasilev
Swing and pull teaches you transition of like placing your grip in kettlebell sport as well because you cannot switch hands. So the biggest challenge in snatch is that your grip getting tired eventually or you, you might tore the hands and get blisters. And it can be avoided if you do it properly. And the main trick is avoid friction. So you need to place the hand very precisely on the handle the way. Well, it will be.

Denis Vasilev
Same angles as a swing part so you catch catable well at the middle point. But then if you over grip it, if you flex the grip, if you Place your hand under the handle and then once gravity kicks in and you know the, the gravity flex your wrist and also the handle.

Denis Vasilev
Twist in your hand. Well that’s you know, SS heavier the bail as sooner you know, you will get a blister and your forearm get popped. So it’s, it’s all about the precision to place, to place your hand exactly on the same spot of a handle and the same like neutral wrist. So when you do swing it pull you, you swing it, you pull it and you release the grip and then you place your hand again and you swing none. That’s like. Well it’s, it’s, it’s. I feel like this, this way it’s, it’s beneficial for my snatch performance because I’m practicing to release and catch. Releasing, catch. Well and of course you know, swing is a, you know, also activates your, your back and your glutes so it make you, make you stronger there. But when it comes to long cycle preparation where you do clean and jerk. I like to do the whole clean because. Well it’s.

Denis Vasilev
Like I very. I feel like it’s important to have a, like to practice timing like kettleball sport athletes as a coach like what I’m dealing with the guys who’s actually like maybe like.

Denis Vasilev
Advanced athletes like but not quite pros. So I, I teach them to recognize where the swing ends and where the pool starts because you might start pulling them a little too early or a little too late. And it’s very important to, to, to know this border. So that’s why you know, I’d rather do cleans as auxiliary exercise to long cycle than swing because I practice swing and then the pull and then the hand and so on. So like, like more technical, technical elements to it and. Well, it’s a quite a long answer to your question.

Steven Sashen
No, I like it.

Denis Vasilev
How tall should be the swing?

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
I guess it’s, it’s also the matter of, of your goals, what you want to achieve. Like safety wise.

Denis Vasilev
Like my opinion that there is no such thing as a bad exercise. It’s only can be a poor technique and wrong training methodology. That’s how you can hurt when you go too fast, too heavy. But if you’re paying attention, I think there are, you know, swings, you know, it’s either like.

Denis Vasilev
Quarter amplitude or chest level or all the way. I actually like to do all the weight. Like I, I’m not sure it was the terminology. I call it American swings. I’m not sure that you call it. But when you swing it all the way to the top.

Steven Sashen
Okay.

Denis Vasilev
I like it because it’s a top fixation here. Static phase. That’s what I like.

Steven Sashen
So, yes, you have. You like it when there’s a moment where you can breathe.

Denis Vasilev
So I go all the way to the top with it. And it can be done safely. And you know where, when you stop at either point. But generally swing is simple because, well, there is no point in the swing where you compromise your posture so you keep the back straight. It’s a bit more complicated when you do clean because you do the swing part with a straight back. Yeah. And then once you pull, you insert the hands and you release the mid back, you spread the shoulder blades apart, and then you shouldn’t miss the elbow slanting on the pelvis. So that’s how you will keep your back safe when, when you distribute the weight on the pelvis. So it’s like you, you’re constantly changing the posture from the straight back to the arched. And then when you go to the jerk, you also go from like the arch back to the straight back overhead. And then when you release best from the top, you arch it again into the rack and you straight it again for the swing. So you’re changing posture like four times per repetition. Doing cleaning jar.

Steven Sashen
This is the thing that I, that I find so interesting in what you’re saying is there are these nuances to each part of using a kettlebell that I think most people don’t. Aren’t even aware of. And I, and I would argue that some people probably give up on kettlebells because some of these little subtle things are really the difference between being, feeling like you’re doing something right that’s working your body or something where you’re working against it. And, and that’s, that’s really interesting. Like, you know what you’re calling the, the American swing of just going all the way up overhead? It’s one thing, I imagine, if you’re driving so that the swing ends overhead versus the swing would naturally end, say at chest level, because that’s as much momentum as you’ve given the bell. But then you’re just pulling it overhead, which is a very. Which is a different thing. I’m not saying one is better or worse. I don’t have an opinion about that. But I, but I can imagine those being very different things, actually.

Denis Vasilev
Well, I, for sure I’m not pulling the final phase. It’s, it’s a, it’s all momentum. It’s counterbalance. It’s, it’s, it’s performed as well As a, as a, as a snatch really, because you swing it and by the time the swing ends, the, that’s where you counterbalance and you pull. You put your body against the belt and that’s how it’s continues the war. So it’s like if you’re trying to finish the, the final, you know.

Steven Sashen
Lifting. Yes.

Denis Vasilev
With your belts. Well, no, that’s, that’s not how. It’s how it’s done. Yeah, that’s not the muscles that, you know.

Steven Sashen
Yes, that’s so, that’s so that thing of, just the thing of like once you get past chest level, if you’re lifting the bell, that’s my analogy to, to rowing incorrectly by taking the, the oars over your knees instead of straightening your legs and then driving the orders down. So if somebody’s looking, I mean, you know, I know most people probably haven’t don’t even know about kettlebell sport and they’re looking at it just as an auxiliary exercise for something else they’re doing or as a main workout. So the two part question here is if people are looking to just start exploring kettlebell, what would you recommend? And if they’re looking to explore kettlebell sport because they haven’t been familiar with this, how would, what would you recommend for that?

Denis Vasilev
What I would recommend. What do you mean exactly?

Steven Sashen
Well, if somebody’s, you know, someone has never actually done anything with a kettlebell and they want to get started and they’re doing it just as part of their exercise routine, you know, what do you recommend for that kind of person versus someone who, maybe they’re, whether they’ve gotten started with kettlebells or not, but are intrigued by this idea of kettlebell sport and that challenge, how would you recommend they get started as well?

Denis Vasilev
Well.

Denis Vasilev
First of all, we need to feel, you know, sympathy and, well, better even passion to, you know, whatever we want to sign up for because it’s, it’s only the way to get it done. You know, it’s a, it will be hard, you know, either way, you know, so you, you need to have motivation to do it. And once, once. Well, you know, with scalable, of course, it’s, it’s good to like have made a bit, make a little bit of a research and know what kind of exercises exist with keto balls, what kind of workouts you up to. You wants to do a.

Denis Vasilev
Hard style kettlebell or you want to do a flow or you want to do a juggling or you want to do a sport. And now, you know, thanks to.

Denis Vasilev
Social media and you know, the platforms, YouTube. So it’s, it’s quite a, I would say overwhelming amount of information and video. Like you, you can really find examples and even some like tutorials on all of this part. So I would, you know, first at least do that, at least be aware of what exists and well, you know, try with something that you know, it might be not the things that you will end up doing, but at least, you know, pick the first try is something that you sympathize the most and give it a good shot. I would say training cycle. You know, one workout will never gives you a, you know, good understanding what it’s about. You should at least give you know, this that much respect to the exercise or sport by investing well at least a month of your time. So you can honestly kind of just understand what it’s due to your body and like get a bit familiar with technique. Because when you do it properly with the good instructions.

Denis Vasilev
Fitness exercises with kettlebells can be good for you, sport will be good for you. But again, you know, the question is what you’re looking for. Because if you just want a kind of how say.

Denis Vasilev
Not like headache free but wow, maybe easy workout where you don’t want to put too much like thinking and character into it, some sort of like a circuit trainings with a light moderate weight will be a good choice for you. But kettlebell sport is, is a journey.

Denis Vasilev
It’s a mission. You’re heading somewhere and I honestly think that’s a good thing because well it’s you know, it’s more, more than that. You know, it’s goes way beyond the capable sport. It’s face your demons, you know, there’s no escape from them. So you better face them and, and be ready. And the thing is that you might think that it’s tiring but you’re just mastering the approach and once you master the approach then you’re just crushing it on all levels. It’s interesting that you know, you think maybe a person who’s like.

Denis Vasilev
Very busy, I don’t have very responsible job, stressful job. You think this person maybe would go with some like easy workout if any. But what I see is that that’s many students of mine, guys who’s.

Denis Vasilev
They understand the language, you know, and they crashing it at work and they really excited of having a deadlines and like pace recommendations and programming and like five minutes now and seven minutes in two weeks and 10 minutes and four weeks. So you know, like to keep organized, organized and scheduled. So. And that’s, that’s what kettleball sport is about. It’s, it really helps you with like a self discipline, you know, you’re, it’s, it’s very like I enjoy it as the coach because very quickly like we speak the same language with my students. Like I don’t need to like explain why exactly this workout goes next or that one. They, they understand that. They even like some of my students, they almost, I think they, they, they doing.

Denis Vasilev
Bets, you know, like what workout I will came up with because they start understand the programming said 1, 2, 3 to 1, next. No, no, no, no, 4, 3, 2, 1, 4, 5, 2. So. And you also understand, you know, why you need to like go to bed maybe a bit earlier because next workout is harder when you used to. So it’s.

Denis Vasilev
It’S, it’s really kind of getting the part, part of your life and well, if that’s something that you won’t want it. If it’s something he wants to do while capable sport will be for you.

Steven Sashen
So again, there’s a couple things in there I want to pull apart. One is I just love the idea, this idea that unlike certain kinds of, of workouts, I mean there is a structure and a goal and you are going to be coming up against your mind. You’re going to be coming up against what you think you can do, what you actually can do. And that when you said, you know, confront your demons, I can only imagine that’s part of it is just that learning the difference between what your brain is telling you and what your body is letting is able to do and the that for lack of a better term, the conversation between those two and discovering that you are probably, I would argue probably definitely able to be and do more than you thought. And finding that is, it’s a very, very profound thing.

Denis Vasilev
It’s. Well, what makes me happy is to see my students happy, you know, and to like it’s. It takes a courage and you know, investment of your time to try things. And I understand that might be, you know, scary to change your habits, but it’s like nothing better to see that it’s, that it works, you know. And like.

Denis Vasilev
Through my 25, well, I start kettlebell sport coaching 2015 years experience of kettlebell sport coaching. So number one reason for failure is inconsistency. Just as simple, simple as that. And forgettable sport like myself, I’m working out three times a week was enough for me to be a world champion. Well, of course over time the training get longer. So it’s like three, nine hours total. But three Three workouts is, I think it’s a great schedule. And it doesn’t sound as, you know, impossible knowing.

Denis Vasilev
How, how often other professional athletes working out. Like, I had buddies who’s like Olympic rovers. So it’s like seven workouts a week. You know, sometimes more than that. You know, morning, like running and then evening water and then evening the gym. So I mean, when you’re professional athlete, most of the time you just like, you cannot do anything, anything else. And yeah, when, you know, we’re talking about finding, you know, three hours per week, you know, among 168 hours, it seems like, you know, reasonable goal, but still. Yeah, just cannot, cannot do it really. And if they can, it’s already like, it’s like 80% of success. And I always saying that it’s like fight as hard as you can to not skip the workout. It’s like, you know, we’re building habits, you know, and it’s take time to form the habit, but then it’s easy to destroy it. And once you fall apart, it’s. It’s harder to get back. And. Well, the interesting thing is, let’s say you have this like a terrible week.

Denis Vasilev
Like deadlines, sleepless nights, and you think there’s like no way I can do workout. No, I should stay home.

Denis Vasilev
I’m saying that go to the gym and we’ll find out what, what we can do because at least you know, warm up and cool down and skip the, the general part. And you already will feel better. You know, you, you will actually replace the stress.

Denis Vasilev
Well, sometimes even physical fatigue, the wrong kind, you know, from like doing some asymmetrical leads if you like, if it’s a physical job or if in the office to like nice and balanced work, you like, you know, loose up, doing some stretches and some maybe back extensions pull down. So.

Denis Vasilev
And what really happens is like before you.

Denis Vasilev
Went to the gym, you think you feel so bad that you like 90% empty that you will not even be able to pick up the bells from the ground. But if you all will be brave enough to give a shot, what you will see is that you actually like maybe 10% less, maybe 15. So I mean, it’s. Most of the time it’s not that bad. It feels terrible that you’re off, but you’re off by just way smaller percentage than you think you are. Yeah. Then if you’re practicing that, then you kind of build a little bit more confidence about yourself and you can understand yourself also a little bit better. So you’re not like panicking you know, too, too early and abandoning the plan, you kind of feel like a little bit more confident, you know, to, to stick with the plan. And I think it’s very useful.

Steven Sashen
It’s, it’s a thing. So as a track athlete, the number of times where I’m on the track with one of my training partners and one of us will say, I’m so glad you’re here. Otherwise I would have liked to have just stayed asleep. And so that’s one. And the other is what you just said is the number of times where we get to the track and just feeling like there’s nothing there. And then you find out that you’re wrong and there’s, you know, there’s much more than you thought. Sometimes way more than you thought. And I think that’s an important lesson. Even in competition, you know, I have a line. I say, what do I care what I think about me? So I’ve had days where I felt horrible and competition, I did great. And days where I felt great and competition. It’s never been bad, but was always, you know, but not great. And so I don’t care any longer because I’ve lived through it so many times that whatever my thinking is, I know has nothing to do with how I’m going to perform. So then I’m just going to do my best no matter what and ignore what’s happening in my head. And that was, you know, took a long time to get there.

Denis Vasilev
And what’s interesting also that then eventually competition spirit will kicks in. Because, yeah, like once you convince yourself to get into the gym and work out and you first like have no expectation or just to survive it, then you did a warm up and it’s not too bad and you like very carefully did the first set and it’s like, okay. And then you can, okay, I got you. You know, like, it’s, it feels not too bad and you maybe like have a strong finish and you then you look on the spreadsheet and like, it wasn’t that bad of a workout. And if it’s so. Well then you think that if I can pull out such workout in such terrible day, like, what will happen when I feel great?

Denis Vasilev
This whole thing, like 180 degrees around that, you know, it can be like super boost for your like confidence in a good way. And plus you stay on track. Whereas, like, if you just, you know, skip it, you just left unknown. And when it’s unknown, your imagination is going, yes. And you’re just losing the sense of like reality.

Steven Sashen
Well, and there’s another thing when you get into competition that’s a whole other kind of learning about what happens with the excitement or the fear, which is actually there’s a psychologist who says that kind of anxiety is just excitement without the breathing. So there’s that whole thing that happens in competition that I don’t know what it’s like for a kettlebell but I know for me as a sprinter it took me years to not care what was happening in the lanes to my left or right that you know, it’s like if there’s someone on my shoulder or if I’m on their shoulder, none of my business. I stay, I literally stay in my lane and metaphorically stay in my lane. The only thing I can do is, you know, what my body’s going to do. And that again that was another thing Many, many years until I could actually just do my race regardless of what’s happening in the lanes next to me. And I imagine similar kind of thing.

Denis Vasilev
Yeah, yeah. Actually. Incredible sport. Well it’s, it’s a numbers also like well in, in running like I said like you did your training cycle and you probably you know, know quite, you know accurately like what’s your best bet for this competition like time wise. Like I know you run meters and you know that like best case scenario from all the workouts you did like this time and no any other people around can affect it. Right? It’s just, just you and track. It’s the same 100 meters. So as long as you focus on that that will be your, your best shot and then getable sport. The similar thing the competitions usually well depends on you know, number of lifters but kind of classic is six platforms and it’s their weight losses so and usually it’s organized the ways that it’s your exercise. Let’s say it’s a long cycle. Six platforms of them guys of your weight and they also using the same weights of kettlebell. So it’s a professional. So all 32, so.

Steven Sashen
Oh that’s great.

Denis Vasilev
And they all start simultaneously. Like that’s a, like a dual timers and rep counters. Spectators can see them and athletes can see them. So the, the timers on 0:10 minutes and it’s kind of like a race. You know they, they standing on the platters but you see the, the clubs and you know some like pace strategies. You know someone like start slower and start picking up. Someone start very fast and start dropping and like this number system like it’s, it’s awesome to watch when athletes somewhat you know close you know, and in their level of performance, this. This battle, how they. How they go, like back to back, rep by rep. But yeah, it’s like, I think, you know, the reason I made it through, you know, my career and have all these victories because I wasn’t really thinking about, like, I wasn’t really thinking about winning someone. I was going for reps. So we start preparation. Well, and it’s also. That’s a kind of thing from Carries on from Soviet Union. And actually, traditionally, it’s still incredible sport all over the place. Now it’s the ranking tables. So it’s rank three, rank two, rank one candidate and master of sport, master of sport, master of sport, international class. And that’s like numbers. So.

Denis Vasilev
Actually just let’s say like, in my weight class, in like 80, 185 pounds middleweight. So, like, rank three will be like 29 reps and rank two, like 38 reps and then 46. So as higher the rank as more the reps. And, well, you start at the bottom of the ranking table. You know, you just rank three, and then your next goal is simple. Rank two and then rank one. And. Yeah, and so far and so on. And it’s. Yeah, you’re really well. And then once you. You’re done with the ranking tables, then you just go for PRs. And I always wanted to hit 100 reps. That’s. Well, athletes, they’re all about cool digits, you know, like round numbers. So, you know, like 87, 89 doesn’t work. Like 100, you know, three. And I was chasing it for a long time, and I started double sport 1999. So 2015, I hit it in Canada, Vancouver, 101.

Denis Vasilev
Guys even give me a nickname, D101. That’s good. That was. That was pretty awesome. And when I hit this number, no one was even near. So this was the cool thing. So it was enough to get the first place.

Steven Sashen
That’s nice. So I realized that we’ve talked about these various different ways that people could be involved in kettlebell. The one that we really haven’t talked about in a few minutes, I’d like to just address it for a little bit, which is kettlebell juggling. We brought it up. The early kettlebell guys who were using these as ways of doing weights and measurements, after they were done working, they’d, you know, do juggling. Can you describe that? Or, you know, you could even just say. Just search for kettlebell juggling on YouTube. You’ll find it. But do you want to say anything about kettlebell juggling.

Denis Vasilev
It’s beautiful. It’s. It’s also, it’s kind of like.

Denis Vasilev
Like a, like a gymnastics because they have a certain tricks which worth certain amount of points and then. Well, I, I never did judging for competition. Juggling for competition is quite different. I’ve attended a couple of courses and I have a, you know, friends who’s you know, a high level joining. So I, I have some understanding. So it’s, it’s also a several minutes performance and you just need to well, make the program as, you know, challenging and like complicated as possible. So there’s a flips. So let’s say you throw the bell and there’s like a plane. It flips, it flips in the vertical plane. In horizontal like they call it like I think it’s called a beer mug where you kind of swing cattle ball where the, the it’s positioned horizontally and then you push the handle away so it flips.

Steven Sashen
Interesting.

Denis Vasilev
Beermind then helicopter I think when, when the, the plane of the handle matches with the floor. So it’s flipping like this way. And so in number of like flips it can do. So you throw it, you know, one flip, two, three flips. And then it can be like flips on the chest level or overhead, you know, and you throw with one hand and catch with another like under the leg. So basically it’s all kind of like throwing and tossing the bell and you’re letting it go and let it, let it flip, let the handle do the whole circle around the body and kitchen.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, definitely.

Denis Vasilev
It’s usually one kettle ball. I actually had a, I just came back last week from the Belfast. It’s actually pretty cool event. It’s all about kettle ball. So it’s, it’s a, it’s kable flow kle ball juggling hard style and sport. And so the friend of mine who’s teaching juggling, he said, hey Dennis, like I like well he actually was trying to understand like is it maybe like some mistranslation from Russia or something? Because he said juggling. It’s usually like when you’re throwing like couple things like couple apples and he will like chat GPT it. But kettlebell, it’s like so one bell. So it looks like it’s a tossing or flipping, not really juggling. And said well in Russia it’s also called juggling. It’s like the same word.

Denis Vasilev
So it’s called juggling. But like if he wants to be like very particular about terminology, it looks like it’s, it’s a tossing so it’s. I don’t think they ever. It’s only a single cattle ball. It might be a couple of athletes who will, who will juggle one kettlebell. They throw at each other and also on the way doing flips.

Denis Vasilev
So but it’s very artistic. They usually also have some like a custom dresses and it might, might go into some like a character like a superhero or something and it’s usually sound like also like a custom track playing a music and they try to synchronize with the music also their, their throws. So it’s more of like more artistic performance.

Steven Sashen
Yeah. So it’s definitely a look up kettlebell juggling on YouTube. I think that’s a good one. So this has been a total treat and if people want to find out more about you and or kettlebell sport how can they do that?

Denis Vasilev
My first and last name Dennis Vasilev. And well if you add cattle that will be my website Dennis Vasilyfkettable.com and that’s how you find me on YouTube on Instagram. So I’m, I’m sharing my, my journey there, my workouts and some technique tips, programming.

Steven Sashen
So here I’ll do the spelling part just because there’s two things that people, well one that people might get wrong. So Dennis with one N D E N I S Vasilev V A S I L E V so Dennis Veslev Dennis vs Love Kettle Bell would be the place to find you and I hope people do because bells are really, really fun to play with. I mean it’s just a whole different kind of workout that has different challenges that I do hope, you know, people discover that it’s something they maybe hadn’t thought of or didn’t know enough about it to really see what was there to explore. And that they do. And so keep me posted when people as people reach out. And for everyone else, thank you all for being here. And once again, just a reminder, head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes, all the ways to engage with us, all the places you can help spread the movement movement by giving a good review, giving us a five star rating, thumbs up wherever you do a thumbs up, hit the bell icon on YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. Like I say, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. But most importantly, between now and whatever is next, go out, have fun and live life feet first.