Handball. Your New Favorite Sport
– The MOVEMENT Movement with Steven Sashen Episode 146 with Ebiye Udo-Udoma
Ebiye Udo-Udoma is a national hero for American Handball, and equally an inspiration for athletes who also want to make a business impact in their respective sports. EJ is the model for how sports with an established international professional & Olympic presence can grow in the United States. The day will come when Team Handball & Beach Handball will be as big in The States as Major League Soccer and the National Hockey League. When that day comes, it will because of athletes & strategists like Ebiye Jeremy Udo-Udoma.
Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Ebiye Udo-Udoma about playing handball in Xero Shoes.
Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:
– What handball is, it’s history, and how it is played today.
– Why it’s important to have an efficient and controlled offense in handball.
– How it’s risky and could lead to injury trying to recreate what Olympic athletes do.
– Why the degree of difficulty can be lost if you’re doing something no one else does.
– How playing handball in Xero Shoes has been beneficial.
Connect with Ebiye:
Guest Contact Info
Twitter
@HandballNinja
Instagram
@handballninja
Facebook
Facebook.com/handballninja
Connect with Steven:
Website
Twitter
@XeroShoes
Instagram
@xeroshoes
Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes
Steven Sashen:
Normally when I introduce a podcast episode, I try to say something controversial, or interesting, or attention getting, whatever. This one, I’m going to be simple. We’re going to talk to an Olympic handball player, and if you don’t even know what that is, you’re going to love this. And if you do know what that is, you’re going to love it even more. So that’s what’s going to come on this episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, starting feet first because those things are your foundation after all. And we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the outright lies you’ve been told about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, and to work, and play, and do yoga, and CrossFit, and tennis, and pickle ball, and anything you do, basically.
And to do that enjoyably, effectively, efficiently. Did I say enjoyably? Wait, I know I did. That’s a trick question, but my brain is a little mush because it’s Halloween today when we’re recording this, and I don’t know why… Oh, it’s the candy that made me a little nutty. So anyway, I’m Steven Sashen from XeroShoes.com, your host of the Movement Movement. We call it that because we are creating a movement, that’s a thing and something happening in society, about natural movement, about letting your body do what it’s made to do. And that first part involves you. It’s free, it’s easy, it’s simple. All you do is share, and like, and give us a thumbs up, and reviews, et cetera. And go to www.JointheMovementMovement.com to find previous episodes, all the places you can get the podcast, all the ways you can interact with us on social media. There’s no cost to join. That’s just the domain that I got. But look, you know the drill, if you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. So now here we are. If you could do me a favor, tell people who you are, and what you’re doing here with your handball ninja shirt.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Hi, everybody. I’m Ebiye Jeremy Udo-Udoma. I am one of the captains of the USA Men’s Beach Handball national team. My nickname internationally is Handball Ninja, as you see on this shirt here, and I’m excited to be on the podcast, Steven. Thanks for having me on.
Steven Sashen:
Thanks, Ebiye. No, it’s a thrill having you because you reached out to us at some point and said, if I’m remembering this correctly, and please correct me if I’m wrong. I remember at some point getting an email, it’s like, “Hey, I’m wearing your shoes, and by the way, I’m an Olympic handball player.” And we’re like, “What?” So first of all, that’s how this started. But I think, I was hip to handball a little bit. But for those who aren’t, who think of handball as a thing you play in the streets of New York, where you’re literally just smacking a ball against a wall and it’s a variation of… Actually, there’s no other… Oh, you know what it is? It’s jai alai without the thing that you use to throw a ball in jai alai, and someone will leave in the comments what that thing’s called ’cause I can’t remember right now. Pelota, I think. Anyway, so tell people about jai alai and then also about… Sorry, not about jai alai, Jesus. Holy moley, man, I have got to start this day all over. Talk about handball, and we’ll dive in from there.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
So handball is commonly known or referred to as soccer with your hands. That is the initial premise of the sport. So if you think of a game involving trying to put a ball into a net similar to soccer, 11 people on a field. They essentially decided, “Let’s just use our hands and call that a sport.” I know, right? That’s the original origin of the sport, 11-on-11
Depending on the historian that you ask, the roots of the game are trace back to 19th century Europe, as far as the original version of the game. And I’ll kind of explain how the game has evolved since then.
But its initial roots were soccer, or football known internationally. Somebody said, “Hey, we should just do it with our hands.” And that version of handball was actually the first version of handball we called field handball. That was a part of the Summer Olympic program in 1936, in Berlin. What ended up happening was, throughout the forties and fifties, they took that concept of the game, and they moved it indoors for the winter. And they found that it was a more attractive game because players couldn’t throw the ball quite as far on a full 11-on-11 soccer field, condensing the court where passes can be closer, shots can be more frequent. There’s an indoor version of the game that was seven-on-seven in size that became the more popular version of handball versus the original 11-on-11 soccer-with-your-hands version of the game. And in the 1972 Olympic Games, indoor handball became the version of handball that was on the Summer Olympic program, and it’s been there in the 50 years since.
Steven Sashen:
Do people still play outdoor? Is there still an outdoor league or outdoor tournaments?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Outdoor field handball is generally played recreationally, and very rarely is it played the full 11-on-11 version that was in the 1936 Olympic Games. But handball is played similar to soccer being played across different surfaces. If you think of futsal, and beach soccer, and indoor soccer, and field soccer, handball’s another sport that is played across different surfaces. Just the indoor seven-on-seven version is the one in the senior summer Olympic games, and it’s arguably the most popular version of the game played worldwide. But fast forward to the 21st century, similar to beach volleyball becoming a spinoff of indoor volleyball and finding its niche, beach handball had its first world championship at the turn of the millennium. And it’s the trendy, hip, younger cousin of handball. It’s a game that emphasizes aesthetics. There’s generally less contact between the players than in the indoor version of the game, and that’s to promote more freedom of movement, so you tend to see more spectacular and acrobatic plays in the beach version of the game. And that’s the version that I’m currently captain of our US national team.
Steven Sashen:
Do you have to wear a little thong like the beach volleyball girls?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
No. Oddly enough, we actually went through our version of bikini gate during the pandemic. So on the women’s side, it’s actually really funny you asked the question. But on the women’s side, their uniform was a bikini uniform that that was mandated. And at the 2020 championships, the Norwegian women’s team actually protested that. So they played the Spanish national team in the third place game with some shorts.
Steven Sashen:
Nice.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
So they could protest that uniform, and then it actually became one of the bigger public stories throughout the pandemic. There were friends of mine and celebrities that were talking about beach handball, and I’ve been trying to turn them onto the sport for a decade. But this bikini gate issue becoming global, I had a couple of my friends, “Hey, this is the sport you play, right? Well, how come the women have to wear bikinis?” I was like, “I’ve been trying to tell you about this sport for seven years, and now you want to talk about it because you want to change our women’s uniform.”
But ultimately, their uniform did get changed. Albeit with some controversy on the other end, because there were some women’s players who said, “Hey, we feel more comfortable competing in the bikini, and we don’t want that uniform to change.” And in most competitions, what we go about in the United States is we follow beach volleyball in having a more flexible… Teams can pick a uniform length and cut that is comfortable for them to wear, and that’s generally how we do US competitions. Internationally, there’s just a standardized new uniform that has a little bit more material on top, and then it’s shorts versus bikini bottoms. But very funny that you asked the question off the cuff because that was something that we very recently went through in our sport.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I’m curious. See, if I was on the men’s side and this was coming up, the way I would’ve done a protest is I would’ve had all the men going out wearing a bikini bottom and just say, “Just see how you like it now.”
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Believe it or not, when this was going on, our men’s team was thinking of ways in which we could advocate for our women’s players. And that idea came up, and then a couple of guys were like, “Let’s see if we could find another way to help them out.”
Steven Sashen:
I’m guessing, and please don’t pass this on to the people who said no to that idea. I’m just guessing the people who didn’t want to do it were worried about whether they could fill out a bikini bottom.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Sure, let’s go with that rationale. We’ll say that was the reason why.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, okay. I know at some point I’m going to get beaten up by a couple of handball players.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
No, no. We’re a nonviolent group of guys. We’re very fair play-oriented, so don’t worry about any retaliation.
Steven Sashen:
I’ve just accused a couple of them of not packing, so that’s a whole other story. But I don’t know them, so I don’t know who it was. It was all a joke. I don’t want to be walking down the beach and get hit by a ball in the back of the head. But backing up, I’ve got to say this. With the description of soccer with your hands, that does not do it justice. Because soccer, while it can be engaging sometimes, especially as the ball gets close to the net, handball is exciting 24-7.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
And one thing to that, because I’ve become a beach sport ambassador in aficionado since I’ve gotten involved with beach handball, and I’ve become a beach soccer fan. I’m good friends with a number of the players on both the women’s and men’s beach soccer national teams, and beach soccer to me is the most exciting version of soccer there is because the field is small enough that anybody can score at any time. So I think the issue that some people may have with soccer being not quite as exciting as handball has to do with the size of the field, because when you have such a big field, buildup takes a long period of time. But beach soccer, in contrast, the field is small enough that literally anybody can score at any time because both goals are close enough. And to me, that’s what makes beach soccer an extremely exciting version of soccer, and handball being a sized court that is similar to basketball, a little bit longer, you have fast breaks. You have such quick transitions. It’s a very high scoring game as you’re alluding to. I think part of it has to do with the size of the field, not just the fact that we get to use our hands over our feet.
Steven Sashen:
There’s a joke in there about size, which is going to become a theme in this podcast, I can tell. It’s funny, I’m thinking about we were invited… We were talking to USA Rugby about working with them, and we got invited to a world championship match. And the rugby pitch is even bigger than the soccer pitch, and the thing that was interesting is there, the delineation is between the number of players on the field. And when there’s more players on the field, ironically, the game moves a little slower. When there’s only seven guys on each side on the field, it is insane because it’s just people sprinting like crazy and then smashing into each other. It’s like roller derby.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
The same concept applies even within the sport of handball, and part of what’s increased attractiveness of the sport over time is moving to smaller-sided versions of the game where there was more space for players to move more freely. So if you compare beach handball, which is a four-on-four game, versus indoor handball, which is seven-on-seven, the beach game is extremely fast.
Steven Sashen:
Interesting.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, the seven-on-seven version of the game, it’s faster than 11-on-11, but not quite as fast. And I don’t know if you know that I actually have experience with USA Rugby.
Steven Sashen:
Oh no, I didn’t.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I played on the sixth side version of Rugby national team for the US, and that game is extremely fast because players have to cover a full pitch with a small number of guys. And with so much open space, everybody’s able to sprint around. Versus with fifteens rugby, the more people you have on a pitch, there’s less space, and so the general pace of play will slow down.
Steven Sashen:
Well, and the other thing with the fifteens, I’m guessing, is that there’s more guys who are just monsters. They’re fast, but they’re monsters. And the first time these guys all walked on the field, I said, “This is a group where every one of those guys could walk up to Mike Tyson and go ‘pussy,’ and he would back down.”
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Mike’s a different breed, but point taken. No, the guys on our 15th squads, they’re just massive human beings, especially the front line.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, that front line is just incredible. And there’s times where from the other side of the pitch, I mean a good hundred meters away, you hear a collision that sounds like a car crash. Geez, anyway, but enough about rugby. How did you end up getting involved in handball at all? ‘Cause this is not a sport, obviously, that is super, super popular in America and definitely not when whenever it was you got introduced to it.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Certainly, and it never gets old for me to tell my handball origin story. So when I was 15 years old, I was going into my junior year of high school during the Summer Olympics in what was then Beijing. And just that summer, I happened to be flipping through channels. I happened to flip to a handball game right as a goal was being scored. And I was like, “Oh, what was that?” It was just something that caught my attention. I’m watching this game go back and forth, and it looked like water polo, but it was on land. And basketball was my first love, and it looked like basketball, but there were goalies at the end. And for as much as a sports aficionado as I thought I was, I had never seen or heard of this sport. So I thought, and I’m just trying to figure out, “What is this sport?”
So I’m watching it. I’m looking for a name to come up, somebody to mention it, and it wasn’t until the end of the game that there was a handball decal with the Olympic logo that came up. I was like, “Handball.” Did a Google search, and it was news to me that it was an Olympic sport. It seemed like something that my fifth grade PE teacher made up, but I didn’t know that actually passing and catching and trying to throw a ball into a net outside of water was an Olympic sport, until I happened to stumble across it at that Olympic games. And I became so enamored with it that the rest of the Olympic games, I did whatever I could to watch a handball game. And LA to Beijing, there’s a bit of a time zone difference. So I’m up at 2:00, 3:00 AM trying to catch some of these handball games, and at the end of the Olympics, I was so enamored with the sport.
I asked around, friends, family, did Google searches, looking for just a place to play the sport. And I stumbled across the Portland Sasquatch Handball Club. I don’t know if I mentioned, I grew up in a suburb of Portland, Oregon, and I sent them an email, said, “Hey, I play basketball, baseball at Lake Ridge High School, and if there’s any opportunity for me to try out handball. I don’t know what the league season is, or what the competitive teams are like because, yeah, I’ve played AU basketball. I’m familiar with different sporting systems in the US, both playing for school and playing separately of that.” And they said, “Yeah, just come out.” And the first day, they kind of tricked me the first day that I came out. So the very first day I came out, they were actually putting on a youth clinic at the school where one of the players in the club was a German teacher.
And so it was a German American exchange, and she brought out her German students to play handball. So my first day out, I’m playing with high school kids, like kids my age. Little did I know that that wasn’t the composition of the actual club. So I come back the second week, and it’s the entire adult club that shows up. And they essentially embraced me as one of their own. I obviously didn’t know much about handball, but I was a pretty good athlete. And they said, “Look, we’ll have you play on the wing,” which is basically as far from the middle of the court as possible. “When you get the ball, run as fast as you can. Otherwise, we’ll take care of the rest as far as organizing and actually playing.” And that’s how I got started, and honestly, it was the perfect place for me to get started.
Just cherry picking on the wing with a bunch of older guys who were more experienced, but they were past their prime athletically. And over time, they directly, and also via osmosis, just taught me the game and the flow and the movement of the game. And I played with them the remainder of my time in high school and then made the decision to go to Oregon State University. One of the only schools in the US, and the only school that was then the PAC 10, but now the PAC 12 to date my age, that had a college club handball team.
Steven Sashen:
So how big is handball in the US and then outside of the US, and what are the opportunities here if somebody wants to play?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
That’s a great question, so membership was just over a thousand people for USA team handball last year, which in the grand scheme of an Olympic sport, is very small. We’re actually the smallest national governing body under the Team USA umbrella, to give you reference for how relatively overlooked the sport of handball is stateside. But it is a massive sport internationally. I know it was the second highest rated team sport at the Summer Olympic games in Rio. I don’t have the specific analytics for Tokyo, but it is a very well received sport globally. There are number professional opportunities primarily in Europe to play the sport. And it’s such a weird dichotomy for us as Americans that put billions of dollars into a sport to have this one Olympic sport just seemingly slip through the cracks, where we invest so much into so many different sports.
Obviously, we have our big three in gridiron football, basketball, baseball, and then you have other sports like soccer, hockey, water polo, volleyball that have X number of followers. But handball, for whatever reason, just slipped through the cracks in North America as a professional and Olympic sport that just never got traction.
Steven Sashen:
Yet.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Not just within the country but within the continent, but yet is a key term. And a big part of what I try to do as a national team player, as well as someone who serves on the board of directors for USA team handball, is change just that and help grow opportunities and build exposure to the sport for fellow Americans. ‘Cause I’ve been able to play in 20 countries outside of the US in my international athletic career, and I’ve had some great experiences. And I want to be able to share some of what this sport can offer not just domestically but globally with fellow Americans.
Steven Sashen:
It’s actually a funny, but interesting pitch, is given that it is so small in America, the opportunity, if you get in it, are good to do something like play internationally is obviously much higher than if you’re trying to get into a sport where there’s a lot of guys above you who are going to make those positions.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I 100% agree, and there’s a little bit of an internal debate amongst former USA team handball Olympians and newer players as far as how accessible we want the sport to be, because naturally, we’re competitive guys. We don’t want to make it seem like average Joe can be on our national team, but I’m more on the side of I want the average American who comes across this to feel as if they could be my teammate. Whether it’s at the World Beach Games next year in 2023. If we end up qualifying for the Paris Olympic Games. There’s so many amazing American ball sport athletes who play basketball, baseball, football, water polo, who just do not know that they’re elite handball players. But if you give them a handball, they’ll have the athletic attributes to be able to cross in. And internally, it’s a bit of a debate as far as how much of old boys or close boys club we want this to be, and how much of a, “Yo, yeah, you definitely can be an Olympian through this sport. This is going to be your best bet than if you play other sports.”
Steven Sashen:
It reminds me of the former sprinters who then became bobsledders because they were great in the back of the sled. And so to get someone of some notoriety from some other sport to join handball is the kind of thing to make it move. But of course the biggest thing is getting kids starting to play, because obviously, the bigger the pool that you’re able to draw from, the more you’re going to start finding players that are really, really talented. And they’ll always rise to the top. But this just makes me think of a fun question, which is, what was the conversation like when you said to your parents you were going to be a professional handball player?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
And to give you some context, I didn’t necessarily grow up in an athletic family. I have some athletes in my family, but I grew up in an academic family. My mom’s a Harvard law grad. Dad went to Yale. Law is the family trade. I have a grandfather who was prime minister of Uganda, and so I grew up in a family that very much prized academia. And they supported sport to an extent, but the decisions I made late teens, early twenties to really pursue a sport, at the time, wasn’t so initially well received. Especially considering that handball isn’t like basketball, it was like, “Okay, at least we know what this sport is and the amount of opportunity there is in it. What’s this handball thing?” But it was just something that I fell in love with. And there’s so many different levels and layers to this story, but just to stay on topic with the question that you asked, initially, not so great. But families, over time, come around. They found the sport to be very exciting, and particularly, I’ve been able to play for Team USA over the past eight years. And it wasn’t until my third year internationally that I had some family members come out to my first world championships. And then from that point, once they got seen in person, they got hooked, and they’ve been supportive ever since. But the initial conversation wasn’t so hunky dory, to say the least.
Steven Sashen:
If it makes you feel any better, I graduated from Duke and told my father I was going to be a standup comic, and that went over like a lead balloon.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I can imagine.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, the only thing that I had in my back pocket… Literally, I had a letter from Northwestern Business School saying, “If you want to come, it’s free.” And so I said, “Let’s just try this for a year, and we’ll take it from there.” Meanwhile, I had no intention of ever going to Northwestern Business School, and by the end-
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
But you bought yourself a year.
Steven Sashen:
I bought myself a year, and at the end of the year, he’s asking me about my friends who went to business school. I said, “I’m making more money than the guys who just got out of business school, and I’m working an hour a day. And I’m having a blast, so we’re done with this conversation.”
He never quite got it. I’m curious, when you go to an international match or even especially… I was going to say even national, but definitely an international match. I’m wondering how much it’s like when I went to the Atlanta Olympics as a spectator and watched Greco Roman wrestling, and what I mean more specifically is, other than me, it seemed that everybody who was watching those matches was either a current wrestler, a former wrestler, or family of a wrestler. And it made the event, it was like a giant picnic. Everyone knew each other. They’d all been around each other, and my favorite part was there was this one Polish wrestler who was just having an incredible Olympic games. And everyone knew he was wrestling way above where he normally was, and everyone was so excited to see him kind of breaking out that suddenly everybody was Polish. The entire audience was screaming, “Polska!” Because they knew, and it was just like, “How could you not be excited for this guy?” It was the best.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Handball definitely has a similar culture. And funny enough that you mentioned Polska because I played my club ball in Poland this summer, and Poland is one of the more well-liked countries, particularly in beach handball.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, I love it.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
So it is actually ridiculously funny that you used Poland as an example. But actually, the last world championships, the team that took that spot as the country that the fans locally ended up joining was the Netherlands on the women’s side. They ended up having a amazing run. They won bronze in the competition, and there were fans that came out wearing all orange, similar to orange that I’m wearing. And as they’re making this run, they’re playing the semifinals, the third place game, other fans who weren’t Dutch just joined in with all their cheers.
Steven Sashen:
Oh wait, I just lost your… Wait, hold on. I lost your audio after you said, “fans that weren’t Dutch.” We’re having some connection issues.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, the fans that were Dutch were joining the Dutch crowd of fans because their cheers were so fun, and it was just a fun team to root for. So there is some of that element of camaraderie and for the people in the sport being a big part of the crowd, particularly in non-world championship events. You tend to have more of the local fans who are in the sport or connected to the sport in some regard. And when everybody knows everybody, and I can say this as a player, I’ve played in five world tournaments, you get to know the other players and you form relationships with them. And you get to a point where everybody knows everybody, and it’s a fun dynamic.
Steven Sashen:
Imagine, look, athletes are athletes, you want to win. But when it’s not like there’s a boatload of money at the end of the rainbow, I imagine that at the end of a match, regardless of what happens, there’s definitely a, “All right, let’s go out and have a drink,” kind of mentality.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, there’s definitely a camaraderie. And yeah, I’d say post-competition, we definitely, as athletes, we find a way to get together and have a good time. And I’ll leave it at that.
Steven Sashen:
I love it. I’m going to ask one other… Well maybe more, but I’ve got one other specific handball question in mind. And this comes from, one of the athletes we work with is an MMA fighter. And I asked him, for people who don’t follow MMA, if they’re going to watch a fight, and especially if they’re going to watch his upcoming fight, which a little over a month from now, five weeks from now, he’s going to be in a world championship fight. And I said, “For people who don’t know MMA, what should they look for? How do they watch it, so they are not just watching people just smack each other and roll around, and they have no frame of reference for what’s happening?” And I’ll tell you his answer for the fun of it.
He said, “You want to look to see who is in control.” And interestingly, you can be in control from the bottom. So it might look like you’re on your back and you’re getting beaten up, but you’re actually the guy in control. And if you’re looking for that, trying to just understand what control looks like, even if you don’t know what that means, it gives you a way of getting in, like with gymnastics. I’m a former all-American gymnast. When I tell people about certain events in gymnastics, you can describe certain things to look for, other than whether someone falls off or not, that gives you a way of getting some sense of how to judge from your own little armchair whether someone’s doing well or not. So is there an analogous thing like that for handball so people when they’re watching, how they can feel like they know how to watch?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Certainly. And in both instances, both the gymnastics example, as well as the MMA example, there are parallels in handball. As far as control in MMA, I’d say that’s a similar concept in handball. You want to get a feel for which team is more in control, and you can see that offensively and defensively. Teams that are a little more frantic or a little more sporadic are probably on the losing end. Generally, efficient offenses are those where guys have calm faces, because you can tell they’re in control. They’re getting to the spots that they want to get to on the court. If they’re having the defense rotate and scramble while they’re composed, that’s generally the team that’s better. And then vice versa, the defense is well positioned, and the offense is looking to break through. And they feel stuck and they start getting frantic, and they have less control, they’re probably going to be less efficient overall. So I’d say that concept of control, as far as if you don’t understand the sport, but you’re trying to figure out, “Okay, who’s winning, or who’s doing well?” Look for the team that’s more composed. That’s probably the team that’s in the lead. So very, very direct parallel as far as your MMA example. And then with gymnastics, one of the things that’s unique to beach handball as a discipline is you get extra points for performing spectacular goals.
Exactly, so a spin. If you do a 360 or more rotations before you score, it’s actually worth extra. If you throw the ball in the air to a teammate and they catch in the air, and they shoot and score before they land… And for those of us who are familiar with basketball, it’s akin to an alley-oop. That’s also worth extra as well. And so one of the things that we try to work on in our sport is that element of increased body control and awareness and kind of the spectacular movements similar to what you see in gymnastics and try to utilize that in an effective means to score. And so that’s something that fans who maybe don’t know about handball or beach handball, and this is their first introduction to it. If they stumble across my page or that of my team, those are the things that they can look for, those spins, and alley-oop, and spectacular type of goals.
Steven Sashen:
So has anyone done a forward or backflip goal yet?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yes, and with that, the sport has deemed that to be too dangerous of a spectacular action to perform. And so it’s a maneuver that is particularly outlawed at this point. It was previously done.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, man.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Another exciting action that you can’t legally do is propel yourself off of a teammate.
Steven Sashen:
I was going to ask that one, because watching rugby, the thing where they will grab someone and just be able to lift someone 10 feet in the air.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
You legally cannot do that anymore in handball. There were some kids who have tried, and there have been some horror stories that I personally haven’t witnessed myself, but enough to outlaw that particular action as well as a live front flip. But they have been performed, and they are quite aesthetically pleasing when pulled off.
Steven Sashen:
It’s a big debate in the gymnastics world as well. There are certain moves that… When I was in high school… Actually, I’ll tell the story this way. When I got to college, I asked the coach to spot me for this one particular move, and I said, “You just have to stand there unless it looks like something’s going wrong.” And it’s called a running one and three. Basically, it’s a one and a half front summer salt. You end up in a dive roll, so you take off on your feet, you spin around, and you’re basically trying not to land on your head, but past your head. And he actually spotted me badly, and I ended up ripping a bunch of muscles in my back. And years later, I said, “Why’d you do that?” He goes, “Well, because there was only one other guy in the world who was doing that move, and I didn’t think you were the other one. So I thought you were just lying when you said you were going to do it and trying to show off.” It’s like, “No, I was one of the two guys.” But that same year, there was three guys who ended up paralyzed. So there’s that weird thing where you get extra points for risk, but some of this stuff is stupid.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, I know there are a number of sports that have a dynamic where you’re trying to push the sport forward, but at the same time, you don’t necessarily want… Not even for athletes, you can do something. But if athletes can do something, if you think of someone like, that the majority of human beings just cannot do. But they try to replicate it, they’re very likely to hurt themselves. ‘Cause I know, if I’m not mistaken, because you’re more akin to the gymnast world than I was, that there’s a pretty strong debate when she started performing a couple maneuvers that were either outside of the scoring system or…
Steven Sashen:
Well, they were inside, but it was-
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
It was inside the scoring system, yeah.
Steven Sashen:
But it was just that. It’s like, “Should we allow this because it is so risky?”
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
So risky, yeah.
Steven Sashen:
On one hand, it’s like she’s the only one who can do it. You could let her do it, but it inspires other people to try. There’s a move that now looks quaint that Kurt Thomas did. It was a one and a half twisting back, one and a half. So you’re taking off backwards, but you end up doing it like a one of three, like a dive roll. And I actually had a conversation with a two-time Olympic gymnast, who I met a couple weeks ago, who used to do this move. He goes, “Oh yeah, there was once where I hit my head when I landed, and the rest of the routine, I just had no memory of it at all.” And it’s the kind of thing that he hit his head as he was rolling, but it definitely wakes you up.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yep. Yeah, no, for sure.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. It’s a tricky one, and there’s things like that in just regular diving too. Basically anything where you have the possibility of landing your head, they don’t want you doing it.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Exactly, yeah. It reminds me of Sori Binali, who was a figure skater, who did the first back whipping competition and how much of a controversy that was.
Steven Sashen:
Huge. Huge.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Huge controversy.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, it’s such an interesting thing because as spectators, we are looking for those exciting things, and people are always pushing to do those things. And I don’t think people realize what the real risk is.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Certainly.
Steven Sashen:
But at the same time, and I think some of it’s related to how popular the sport is, because we actually all know how risky just playing football is. But people are like, “Eh, we’re going to keep playing football.” But in gymnastics, they’ll have an opinion, like with Simone when she said, “I need to take a mental health break.” And people are like, “You’re a chicken. Your responsibility is to this to be entertaining.” It’s like, “Oh no, no.” I don’t think you get what it’s like when there’s a move that you’ve been doing successfully that’s super dangerous, and then you do it once and you realize you were totally lost for the first time ever.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
It’s like, “Ah, I got to back up.” And people just don’t get the terror of not trusting yourself anymore.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I can only imagine. One of the things I can relate to, at least in Simone’s particular situation, is when you’re doing something that most people aren’t doing, sometimes the degree of difficulty gets lost. ‘Cause you’re kind of in your own space, and you’re trying to push the envelope of it. And people may not necessarily be able to relate to, “Okay, I made that move look easy, but it was extremely difficult or was dangerous.”
Steven Sashen:
No, you nailed it. It’s because when you can do it well, it doesn’t look difficult.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Difficult, yeah.
Steven Sashen:
I remember, for the sake of rambling about myself for a second, when I watched video of my competitions, the simplest moves got the most response. Because I tumbled, I was flipping really high in the air. But it was a simple move, but it was just really high. But the really difficult stuff looked easy and didn’t seem like it was a big deal. It’s like, “No, that’s the one that I spent four years working on.”
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Four years working on, yeah. I can 100% relate to that, even within the sport of handball and the moves that people relate to versus the moves that technically are the more difficult ones. There’s definitely a discrepancy between the two.
Steven Sashen:
Sorry, I got to do this one. This is my favorite version of that. Have you ever gone to a Cirque du Soleil show?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I have once. It was incredible.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, it’s my favorite. The first one I saw was, Jesus, 30 plus years ago. The last words I heard after the show ended was, “Sir, you have to leave now.” Because I was just in the stands crying. I was just so impressed and thinking, “I should be doing that with my life.” I’m glad I didn’t, but regardless, there was in one of the early shows… Oh, I forgot the name. It was these two brothers. They do a hand balancing act, and you wouldn’t know they were brothers. One is really big and blonde, and the other was still pretty big, but not that big and brunette guy. And they used to do this one bit where the blonde guy, he’s lying on his stomach on the ground, and the brunette guy is doing a handstand on his feet. And then what the blonde guy does is he gets up so he’s on his knees. The other guy’s still doing a handstand on his feet, and then basically, the blonde guy does a leg curl with the guy doing a handstand on his feet. And it’s like he tries and doesn’t make it, and he tries again and doesn’t make it. And then he tries, and then he makes it and the place goes crazy.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Well, it just so happened, again, I stayed ’til way after people were supposed to leave. I saw these guys warming up for the next show, and he was doing that hamstring curl with the guy doing handstands on his feet just in sets of 20.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, like it was nothing.
Steven Sashen:
Effortless. Effortless, yeah.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
That’s part of the performance is selling the struggle, or selling the journey of the struggle, even if it’s something that’s relatively simple for you at a certain point.
Steven Sashen:
Look, it’s a show. It’s not… Yeah, so anyway. So onto the part where we kind of hinted at the beginning. I’d love for you to chat just about this whole phenomenon. You’re an athlete who is on your feet doing things. You somehow discovered us and have been happily wearing Xero shoes. Can you talk about just how you found us, what made you interested, and what your experience has been from getting out of shoes that look like the thing I’m holding up, this big, thick, padded, elevated motion control, or whatever, to what you’re now wearing?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
My journey into barefoot shoes, or to minimalist shoes, started when I made the transition from our indoor handball national team to our beach handball national team in 2015, because that was the first time I’d played a barefoot sport. And very quickly recognizing that it’s a different dynamic, playing a sport without shoe support or pad support, just how you articulate your feet. And in my case, this is the first time I was playing a sport in sand, and it became quite evident that strengthening my feet was going to become important for me to be successful. And then that was something that I didn’t just want to do on the court. That was something that I realized that I wanted to integrate into my life as I made beach handball a part of what I wanted to do. And as I started transitioning to minimalist footwear and discovering some other companies, what happened during the pandemic was I competed in February, 2020.
The world shut down a couple weeks after my competition in Mexico. I was back in California just training at home, and I wanted to chronicle the type of training I was doing during the pandemic. Because I wasn’t around my teammates, I wasn’t playing the sport, but just training by myself. And I wanted to really chronicle this particular unique period of time, as known as COVID-19. And the world shut down February, March of 2020. My birthday was in June of 2020, and I had this idea in May to make a video basically just capturing how I was training March, April, May by myself. And I wanted a pair of all-black minimalist shoes, and I just happened to stumble across you guys. I was familiar with a couple other companies, but I happened to stumble across a Preo that was an all-black Preo, and there was one in my size, size 15.
I was like, “Okay, this is going to be perfect for the video, and it’d be a chance to at least try out a different minimalist shoe.” And I got the pair, loved it, wore it in the video that I shot. I ended up winning World Games Athlete of the Month through that video as a result of inspiring people to train in isolation during the pandemic. And I happened to be wearing a pair of Preos in that video. And through Rachel and social media, on the social media team, she reached out and was like, “Oh my God, this video is incredible, and you’re in our shoes. And we have to interview you. We have to get to know your story.” And things just took off from there, and I’ve explored more of the line. And yeah, it’s essentially the soul of my footwear collection at this point. It’s very in line with who I am on and off the court, and it’s just been a great three years just living life to the fullest.
Steven Sashen:
Hey, thank you, and we don’t need to dwell on that because you just made me think of something else that in the little bit of time we have left. One of the things that I really love when I’ve talked to you is, and I don’t think people about this a whole lot, is what it’s like being a professional athlete, a world-class athlete, and what you’re doing when you’re not doing that sport, or when you’re not training specifically or explicitly for that sport. And I’m going to set you up. I’m teeing this one up, and you can hit it totally out of the park. There’s another thing that you discovered that you do when you’re not training that actually facilitates your play, and I think you know what I’m referring to.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I do, and I’m pretty sure it’s dancing, is what you’re teeing me up for.
Steven Sashen:
It is dancing, and let’s be clear, it is a special kind of dancing. What is the dancing that you do?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, more specifically social dancing, or partner dancing. And that’s something that I’ve found to be, on a number of levels, conducive to my handball game.
Steven Sashen:
It occurs to me now that I would think that being a good social dancer, and this is like swing and salsa, those kind of things?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
I would assume that being a… How tall are you?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I’m six-one.
Steven Sashen:
Being a six-foot-one, fit, good-looking man that this would be counterproductive to your professional athletic career because you’d be the bell of the ball and have some opportunities that mere mortals like I would not have.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I’m flattered. I’m flattered.
Steven Sashen:
Am I wrong, or am I right?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I’m not going to say that you’re wrong.
Steven Sashen:
But okay, leaving that aside now, I would love for you to talk about just the relationship between social dancing, partner dancing, and playing a team sport like this. Because when we brought it up in the last conversation, I thought this was so interesting.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, and there are a number of dynamics when you partner dance. One, there’s generally a person that’s a more masculine role who’s leading or determining the moves that are going to be done, and then there’s a follow, typically a feminine role, who’s responding to that. And that ability to interact… Generally with a stranger, because a lot of times you’ll go to a place where you don’t know your partner, and so you have to improvise your dance on the fly to music that you’re not necessarily knowing. And that dynamic of reading and reacting to a partner, or an opponent, in concert with maneuvering around other people, or other couples who are dancing, similar to your teammates and the other teammates on the floor, helps train a number of crossover cognitive skills. Obviously, there’s you interacting with your partner. The only difference when you’re social dancing is you’re reading and reacting to the partner you’re dancing with, and you’re trying to work in concert with them.
Whereas, if I’m in a one-on-one situation with a handball opponent, I’m reading and reacting to them to not work in concert with them. But the same underlying read and react is there, where I’m physically moving myself, and I have to be sensitive to the movements of my opponent. And then, like I said, the only difference when I’m dancing is I’m responding to my opponent’s movements and then trying to facilitate their next movements being easier. Whereas when I’m on a handball court, I’m responding to their movements. I’m trying to make their movements more difficult.
Steven Sashen:
Ever any opportunity when playing handball to dip and drop someone?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Not legally. I’m trying to think if I have. I’ve definitely been fouled and have been caught by a teammate in falling over. I think that’s probably the closest…
Steven Sashen:
That’s pretty good.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I don’t think I’ve dipped an opponent in handball. That would be funny.
Steven Sashen:
I think it’s actually that, yeah, if you do get fouled and someone does catch you, you’ve got to do something out of that. You’ve got to turn that into a dance step.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I’ll work on it in the future the next time we have practice, and I’ll send you a clip.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, you just got to practice it so you’re ready. It’s just in your back pocket ready to pull out.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, maybe it could be one of our next team celebrations, just a guess. But I’m assuming for the group of guys who weren’t too fond on wearing bikinis, I’m not sure if a dip is going to be the next team celebration.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
But we’ll see. If it happens.
Steven Sashen:
Good point, and even better, good callback. That was pretty good.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Thank you very much, appreciate it.
Steven Sashen:
No, this is a total blast, and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate, A, just the conversation. And B, you’re being part of what we’re doing to help people understand the value of natural movement. That’s blah, blah, blah. We just are really thrilled that we’re able to help, and we’re trying to help more people, obviously. So thank you for helping do that. If people want to find out more about you, and what you’re up to and handball, please tell the humans how they can do that.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, I’ve tried to make this simpler over the years. You can find me on all social media @HandballNinja. That is Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. Basically any social media handle @HandballNinja, you’ll likely find me, and it’s the easiest way to get contact with me and keep up with what I’m doing in the sport of handball and otherwise all across the globe.
Steven Sashen:
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. Oh wait, so you haven’t been doing this long enough to have a MySpace page?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
No, Facebook was my first social media profile, as far as what I would also do business-wise as well. MySpace was… I first discovered MySpace when I was in junior high, but I didn’t really get into social media until I was in high school. But that is a callback, MySpace.com.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, it’s a flashback. It’s funny, you can’t say MySpace without people instantly getting an image in their mind of their MySpace page. It’s just like this one-
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Ah, man. When I think MySpace, I think of Tom, obviously. He’s the one person who… Him and his friend.
Steven Sashen:
Yes. You either think of your page, or you think of Tom.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Ah, that’s bad.
Steven Sashen:
Let’s leave people on that image in their brain.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Good old MySpace. Now I’m curious what Tom’s up to.
Steven Sashen:
I know. That’s definitely something. I bet if we just Google, “What’s Tom up to?”
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
I’m sure if you Google, “What’s Tom up to?” You can find…
Steven Sashen:
Wait, hold on. Hold on, wait. I’m going to do it right now. Hold on.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Go for it, ’cause I’m curious now.
Steven Sashen:
I might have to put in, “What’s MySpace Tom…” But I’m going to try, “What’s Tom up to now?” And let me see if I get an answer. This would be so great if it’s-
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
It’d be funny if the first thing that comes up of, “What is Tom up to?” Is MySpace Tom.
Steven Sashen:
It is, here. What’s he been up to since? Well, the 50-year-old lives in Hawaii and appears to be leading an amazing life as a travel photographer, exploring the world and sharing his beautiful snaps from exotic destinations like Thailand, Buton, and the Maldives on his Instagram and Twitter accounts. So now you know where Tom is now.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
He’s on Instagram and Twitter now sharing photo.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, my God.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Oh, that’s brilliant. Good on him. It seems like he’s living a good life.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, I think that’s a fine thing, to have fun.
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
It’s a fine way to live.
Steven Sashen:
All right, well, speaking of getting out and having fun. First of all, thank you… Oh wait, next competition coming up? Next match?
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Next competition. As far as what we’re doing with Team USA internationally, we’re building up to the 2023 World Beach Games in Bali, Indonesia. So there’s a link to Tom being an exotic…
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, I was going to say, “Look for Tom.”
Ebiye Udo-Udoma:
Yeah, look for Tom photographing us in Bali, Indonesia, in August 5th through 12th, 2023. That’s the next big world competition for my national team.
Steven Sashen:
Good luck with that. Well, I was going to say it’s starting to get cold here in Colorado. It’s only cold at night. It’s in the thirties at night. It’s in the seventies all day, still. It’s crazy. But nonetheless, thinking of Bali, that’s a pleasant one as the weather starts to change. So, all right, for the last time, I’ve said it five times. Ebiye, thanks so much. This is, again, a total treat. For everybody else, once again, thank you for joining, and go check out www.JointheMovementMovement.com for previous episodes, all the ways you can interact with us, all the places you can find the podcast. And of course, if you have any questions, or feedback, or comments, or recommendations for people to have on the show, you can drop me an email. I’m at [email protected], but most importantly, just go out, have fun, and live life feet first.