What if the exercises that look the strangest are the ones that can help your body move, react, and perform better in real life?

In this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, Steven Sashen speaks with Sam Davis, Founder of Neurologic Fitness Training Systems, who shares his unconventional approach to training, including long-duration isometrics, depth drops, plyometric-style impact work, and exercises designed to help the brain and body feel safer under stress. Together, they explore why unusual-looking movements may build stronger tendons, enhance force absorption, improve confidence, and foster more resilient movement patterns for athletes and everyday people alike.

Key Takeaways:
→ Long-duration isometrics can challenge the body and brain in powerful ways.
→ The ISO extreme lunge trains strength, mobility, focus, and tolerance.
→ Landing hard after controlled drops can help prepare the body for real-world impact.
→ Athletes need to train for the forces they encounter in their sport.
→ Foot feedback plays a major role in balance, movement, and safety.

Sam Davis is the founder of Neurologic Fitness Training Systems and a Jacksonville Beach–based strength coach and personal trainer specializing in neurologic performance training and pain relief. With a master’s degree in Exercise Science from Middle Tennessee State University and more than 10 years of coaching experience, Sam has worked in collegiate, professional, and private settings, including with MTSU, Lipscomb University, and the Jacksonville Jaguars’ strength and conditioning staff.

Sam helps athletes and active adults bridge the gap from pain relief to peak performance. He specializes in advanced neurologic training methods, including The SQUARE 1 System, Z-Health, and Reflexive Performance Reset, to help clients address nervous system dysfunction, improve movement quality, reduce chronic pain, and return to high performance.

Connect With Sam:
Website: https://www.neurologicfitness.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neurologicfitness
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/NeuroLogic-Fitness-Training-Systems-61578841028673/

Connect with Steven:
Xero Shoes: https://xeroshoes.com/
Join the MOVEMENT Movement: https://jointhemovementmovement.com/
X: https://x.com/XeroShoes
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/xeroshoes/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/xeroshoes

Episode Transcript

Steven Sashen
Whether you’re an athlete or just want to be healthy, what if the best exercises you can do for everything that you’re doing when it comes to movement are the craziest looking things you have ever seen in your life? Well, we’re going to be talking about those and then pointing you to them on today’s episode of the Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting typically, you know, feet first, those things at the end of your legs that are your foundation. But we also break down the propaganda, the mythology, and sometimes the outright lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run, walk, hike, play, do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it is you like to do, and to do it enjoyably, effectively and efficiently. Did I say enjoyably? Trick question. Of course I did. I just didn’t say pickleball on purpose, but that’s another story. But the point is, if you’re not having a good time, you’re not going to keep it up. So make sure you’re doing something that you find interesting and entertaining and enjoyable, whether it’s the enjoyable doing it or enjoyable because of the results you’re getting. And we’re going to be diving into that, especially in today’s podcast. I’m Stephen Sashin, the co founder and chief barefoot officer at Xero Shoes and host of the podcast that we call the Movement Movement. Because we are creating, and we is like all of us, creating a movement about natural movement, using your body the way it’s made to be used, and in this case, made to be trained. And when I say we, it’s not anything special, you know, if you like what you’re hearing, just spread the word, give us a thumbs up, give us a good review, hit the like button on YouTube, hit the bell thing. So you hear about future episodes, go to our website, www.jointhemovementmovement.com. there’s nothing you need to do to join. It’s just the domain that I got. There’s no secret handshake, there’s no dance we do every morning at 8 o’clock.

Although that’d be really cool. But you’ll find all the previous episodes, all the places you can find the podcast, all the ways you can engage with us. So let us begin with the fun. Sam Davis, tell people who the hell you are and what the hell you’re doing here.

Sam Davis
Hey, so, yeah, I’m Sam Davis. Thanks for having me. Stephen. Really, really like that, that intro there a lot of good things in that, especially the enjoying exercise component. I think that’s heavily overlooked, but we’ll get more into that here shortly, I’m sure. So, yeah, I’m Sam Davis. I am from Nashville, Tennessee, currently down here in Jacksonville, Florida. I’m a strength and conditioning coach. So basically I help people with a mixture of both performance and then also pain and rehab side of things. So I kind of do a little bit of both ends of the spectrum and really not a whole lot in the middle. So I don’t do a lot of gen pop, but those are kind of the two things that I focus on currently. So I’ve had a very fun start to my career. Just kind of getting into the formal side of education and then getting into the real world and actually seeing what works, what doesn’t, what people enjoy, and then being able to just continue to learn from so many other great coaches.

Steven Sashen
Well, two things. First, I’m glad you got the memo that it’s green shirt day, and that was very important. If we’re not color coordinated, this podcast doesn’t work at all. And secondly, the reason that we’re here is I stumbled upon some videos of things that you’re doing that are literally, that were literally, I would say, unlike anything I’ve ever seen. Let’s just say. Yeah, I’m going to say unlike anything I’ve ever seen. There’s some principles that I’ve seen, but not the way you’re applying them. And I know that if that. I can only imagine. I didn’t look at the comments. I imagine that some of the comments are variations of things that we get, which are variations of. Hey, moron. So why don’t you describe what it is that I was seeing and the reactions that you have gotten, and then we’ll talk into the nitty gritty of why, what and how to apply it.

Sam Davis
Yeah, so, I mean, there is, as you said, if you stumbled across my page, you can see all kinds of idiotic appearing things. I enjoy doing things that are outside of the norm because, once again, my background is more formal, you know, traditional snc, and you can only just lift heavyweights for so long before you get bored or. Um. So I started kind of exploring and venturing out into some other. Some other avenues within the industry and. And learning from other people. And, yeah, I kind of stumbled across a lot of this stuff, probably. Oof. I’d say 2018, 2019, somewhere in that range, but started getting into a lot of, like, heavy isometric work, getting into a lot more plyometric. Work. Just learning all about how movements and how different positions can challenge the body and challenge the brain and oftentimes provide some very cool results in a lot of different ways. So to give a little more clarity on some of that, the, like I said, a lot of the stuff you’re going to see is me being in, you know, maybe an in range position and trying to hold it for three to five minutes, maybe jumping off of a super high box, trying to hit the ground hard. A lot of long duration plyometric work. All kinds of fun, fun things that like you said on Facebook, will get me a whole lot of, a whole lot of hate.

Steven Sashen
Well, let’s, let’s, let’s take a, take a few of these in independently. So an end range isometric thing. Give, you can give your favorite example and I’ll give one of my favorite examples. Just describe that so people can imagine what they would be doing and why it would be terrifying to try.

Sam Davis
Yep. Yeah, definitely can be terrifying. There are, I don’t know, easily 10 to 15 different positions that I kind of use on a regular basis for these long duration ISOs. But probably my, my favorite and also least favorite is the ISO Extreme lunge. So.

Steven Sashen
Dude, that’s exactly, just FYI, it’s exactly what was in my head.

Sam Davis
Yeah, so I mean it’s a classic. So basically the way that I do it, it’s, it’s based off of the, the learnings from a guy named Jay Schroeder. So if you’re not familiar, heavily look into that. But a lot of these concepts are going to stem from his, his systems. So the ISO Extreme lunge is basically getting into a very, very deep lunge position so that the feet are pretty much as far apart as you can get them while still maintaining specific body positions. So we’re looking for front shin to stay vertical, torso vertical, back leg as straight as you can get it, and then you’re actively pulling down into position. So one of the biggest differences between this version and, you know, your, your typical isometric is most people are just in a position and they’re resisting gravity. They’re actively just trying to stay in that position. What we’re trying to do is actively pull deeper and pull harder into that position.

Steven Sashen
So let me pause there for a second for someone like me, because I’m like stupid flexible from having been an all American gymnast way back when. Even with my front chin vertical, I can basically, I can get down. So I’m essentially for all practical purpose doing the splits. I mean, I Couldn’t get much further than that. I’m not that kind of flexible, but if I’m pulling down, yeah, there’s going to be a straight line from my front knee to my back toe, which not a place I like to be.

Sam Davis
Yeah. So I mean, obviously there’s a certain population that is on that more like hyper mobile side of the spectrum where for them maybe they need to cut it off at a certain end point. Like maybe it doesn’t need to be truly max in range. But for your average person, your average athlete trying to do what I described a second ago is going to be very, very challenging and not so pleasant.

Steven Sashen
So let’s walk through the stages of unpleasantness so people can know what to. Sometimes it’s helpful to know that it’s, you know what it’s going to be like before you start. So frank, I mean, honestly. So you’re not surprised and think that there’s something wrong with you when some of these things happen, Walk through these stages of isometric hell.

Sam Davis
Well, there’s a lot of ways we can go with that with that lunge specifically and I guess with all these isometrics and anytime I’m introducing someone to this stuff, I would always rather them start on the lighter side from the, the time perspective. So I don’t want them to just truly try to go max effort immediately. We’re typically going to have some level of an interval. So Maybe it’s like 10 seconds pulling into position and then maybe 10 seconds just relaxed and then pulling back in on and off basically until they can no longer hold that position. Because a lot of this is, like I said, from an outside perspective, looking at it, it seems simple enough. It seems like you’re just hanging out in a lunge. But what we’re actively doing is, like I mentioned, you’re pulling down and in that lunge position with the front leg, you’re specifically trying to recruit the hamstring as hard as you can. The back leg, I’m trying to squeeze the glute as hard as I can. So if you’re doing all of these things the way they’re, they’re kind of designed in the, in the movement and max effort. It’s gonna be awful. It’s gonna be pretty miserable, but it’s one of those things. It’s gonna get better. You know, the first time you go for a run, it’s like, yeah, it sucks. Nobody likes this. It’s not fun. But then you kind of get used to it. Your body adapts and then it’s not so bad. So initially for most people, just because of our human nature and, and pretty much everyone having tight hip flexors from sitting, you’re gonna have that back leg. That hip flexor is gonna be screaming at you right away. So that’s gonna be one of the biggest things. And then on the front leg in that lunge position, the quad, the quad is going to fatigue quickly. And that’s something that, once again, the, the, the more you dive into the stuff and start to actually think about what you’re doing, the more you can contract that front hamstring, the more that front quad can actually lengthen and relax and take tension out of the system. So it should be less quad heavy. Even though initially, probably for the first six months you’re doing it, it’s going to be a lot of quad.

Steven Sashen
Yeah.

Sam Davis
So it’ll kind of change as you, as you get used to it and

Steven Sashen
as you start adding time. Talk about the interesting phenomena that occur.

Sam Davis
Well, so there’s, there’s definitely layers to it. Once again, you know, going back to the J. Schroeder style of kind of understanding the whole system here, they use an acronym called pipes. So basically that’s the accumulation of all the different components of what makes the human. So it’s, you know, I’m gonna miss a couple here. But the physiology, the intention of it, the spirituality, the emotional, like, everything has to come together all in one place to actually execute this at the highest level and for that long of a duration. So you’re gonna go through, you know, the first minute or two, it’s just like, unless you’re in the right headspace, it’s just going to be burning. It’s just going to be a lot of fatigue. And I’d say for your average person by 60 to 90 seconds, they want to quit. They’re. They’re ready to be done. So having the ability to push through that, that end point of when your brain’s telling you, hey, we need to pull a plug, this is when we stop. And being able to continue to stay in that position and pull into it more, that’s like a whole nother animal. And that’s kind of what we’re trying to get to. I think that’s where the intentionality comes in and actually makes this extremely beneficial. Beyond just like the, the, the typical isometric benefits, it’s a, it’s a very

Steven Sashen
interesting thing in distance running, which I don’t do. One of the things that, that gets talked about quite a bit is this the concept of the Central governor, which basically your brain is doing a lot to try to protect you from what it thinks could be dangerous. A weird example of the opposite of this. I remember there was a TV show, I think it was called something like, you know, this can’t be happening to me or something like horrible things that happen to people who got out of it. And one guy, he’s hiking and some slab of marble just like comes down and lands him and he essentially bench presses the thing off of him. It’s like a couple thousand pounds, bench presses it off of him, makes it down off the mountain. But he had ripped like every muscle in pretty much his entire body that got recruited to do that because all of the mechanisms to keep from ripping the muscles off, you know, and the tendons off the bones just got turned off so he could live. So but when you’re starting to get to the edge of the central governor and realizing that it actually is okay, it’s a weird little conversation you’re having with your brain. But there’s also phenomena that are happening, hearing that, that are interfering with your ability to have that conversation. Like talk about shaking and vibrating.

Sam Davis
Yeah, absolutely. No, to your point. I mean that’s a, that’s a large chunk of, of what my training as a whole looks like. It’s about reducing threat to the brain. I want to make sure that the, the CNS and the brain feel safe in positions producing, absorbing certain levels of force, certain, you know, joint angles and whatever it may be. Because, you know, we’re factoring whether I’m working with an elite sprinter or a football player or a 72 year old that broke their hip, like it doesn’t matter, they’re all going to be kind of looking for the same thing. We’re trying to improve the system as a whole and reduce threat to the brain so that they can achieve the goal they need to be able to achieve through regular life or through their sport. So yeah, I mean, I think the isometrics alone can teach something so beneficial that you just don’t typically see in traditional weightlifting and other things. You kind of, you know, you get to a point you’re like, okay, I can’t lift it anymore. But like you probably could, but most people are going to cut it off at a certain point. I think the isometrics really allow you to draw that out and find that, that fine line of like, okay, my brain saying stop here. I’m going to keep going and making that conscious decision and being okay with it.

Steven Sashen
Yes. And again, the shaking.

Sam Davis
Oh, absolutely, yeah. For me, for me personally, the uh, anything single leg or even just like a very deep wall sit. And the way that we do the wall set, we’re going to be, you know, back against the wall like normal, but basically trying to keep the shins completely vertical. So basically the, the ankles below the knee and then pull the heel off the ground just slightly so it’s all forefoot and then trying to stay in that for, for minutes and it’s. Yeah, my legs are just jumping up and down.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I do. I’ve done a variation of that with the, the guy that I work out with where it’s basically doing wall sit and then just doing calf raises. And in addition to the shaking, it just, it’s the, the calf raise part is nominal, but the, the quad part is mind numbing. And basically, I mean we’ll do this for like 60 seconds and I will fall down twice in the process. I mean it’s like I just, I mean I fall so it’s, it’s. But you get back up and you do it again. So you know, let me back up a half a step in a way. Can you talk about the other, I mean other than the central nervous system and the, you know, central, central governor theory idea of learning to tolerate things and being able to push more than you thought you could to get a better benefit. Talk about the other benefits of isometrics. Like people think. I mean, if you’re of a certain age, you’re only. The only thing you know about isometrics is the Charles Atlas ads in comic books when we were kids, which if you look back at Charles Atlas now you’d go dad bod. But regardless, there are, there’s value to isometrics that people don’t appreciate. And I think especially as people are getting older, I think they’ll, this might be something they’d want to know and explore once they understand the value of it. So dive in if you shall.

Sam Davis
Yeah, so I mean with, within isometrics, I mean you can, you can. We could spend the whole rest of this conversation just talking about that. I mean the fun part is, I mean there’s just so many ways that you can go about performing isometrics in different manners. So I tend to break them into three categories. So we already discussed one which is technically called like the ISO extreme, where you’re actively pulling into in range. So that’s an ISO extreme. There’s yielding. Yielding is where you’re basically doing the opposite. What I said you’re just trying to resist you’re just holding a position, so going into that same lunge, but then just trying to, you know, not let gravity pull you into the ground, but you’re not actively pulling. And then there’s the overcoming. So that’s more the, the one that people are less familiar with. That’s where you are a lot of, a lot of times in like more sports performance side of things. Let’s say you are doing a bench press and you set the bar under the pegs, under the safeties, and you’re pressing against something that’s not going to allow you to move. So it can be, you know, any position, but you’re driving against something immovable. And that technically is the only one that’s like a true isometric because there’s zero movement.

Steven Sashen
Right.

Sam Davis
So within that, each of those have their own benefits. So you could, you know, like, like, so we could dive off into all of them separately, but and just to kind of like wrap it up in, in a less nerdy way overall. Just like the, the tendon health, there’s cellular aerobic, like mitochondrial health, there’s the ability to just be in position and to get into, in range, so mobility. And even as far as like, like I said with the, specifically the overcoming and the ISO extremes, the actual like increase in force production, so the ability to send a stronger signal from the brain to the tissue to make it fire harder to recruit more of the muscle. So I mean, it’s endless. You know, you could, you could sit here and list 100 things probably, but all of them really, really good benefits for the body and for, for the, the human as a whole.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, I’m glad you started with the 10 in one, because that’s the one that most people don’t think about at all is the importance of tendon strength. And it’s very hard to generate to make that happen with pretty much any other kind of exercise. You’re, you’re just not, you’re not putting the tendons in a position of stress or, or, or tension in a way that is of long enough duration and enough intensity unless you are doing something like this. You know, if you’re just doing any sort of active motion, the tendons are working a little bit. It’s mostly relaxed until you’re at end ranges, for example. So. Love that one. Okay, let me go to the second thing that you mentioned of some of the kind of crazy things you do that people lose their mind about. And you said jumping off a box and landing hard. Now that is of course the opposite of what anyone thinks you’re supposed to do, and I imagine just strikes terror in those people who have, say they have bad feet, hips, ankles, knees, back, head, or neighbors. So. And you know, there’s a whole thing about doing death jumps where the whole idea is land soft and absorb everything. So talk about why you want to land hard and how to do it in a way that, where people won’t, you know, be ready to dial that last one of 911 when they’re done.

Sam Davis
Yeah, yeah. So to your point, anybody that does have any sort of issues, whether it’s foot, knees, ankles, hips, whatever, they’re not going to be the person that is going to be implementing this, at least not initially. They would have to take time to prepare the body for that type of thing. Same thing as, you know, like, like we said, if someone hasn’t ever run in their life and they want to sign up for a marathon, they’re not going to run the marathon the next day. They’re going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort to try to prepare the body for that occurrence.

Steven Sashen
You have clearly not hung out at the last dregs of a marathon.

Sam Davis
Yeah, true, sorry, let me rephrase that. That’s what people should do. People do a lot of dumb things as we know. But, but regardless, that’s kind of the same, same concept here with the, we term it a depth drop is where you are doing that exercise. You’re on a box, you’re stepping off and you’re landing in a specific position. And to your point, you know, I think a lot of the old school thought processes would be, you know, doing box jumps and then trying to absorb the energy efficiently upon landing. And so you’re, you’re actively trying to be soft with the landings. And there’s value to that to some degree. For once again, maybe someone that’s not physically prepared for those harsher impacts. But what I’m looking for is I want to replicate whatever the athlete’s needs are, whatever they’re going to experience in their sport. I need to be able to replicate that in our sessions. We need to be able to prepare them for that. So as I’m sure you’re very aware with, with your company, the amount of force going through the body when you are even just walking, jumping, sprinting, it’s, it’s unbelievable. I think some of the, some of the numbers I’ve seen over the years, it’s anywhere from like five to nine times your body weight on one leg when you’re sprinting.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, for an average, like if you’re jogging, it’s about depending on who you are, let’s say two to three times your body weight and for sprinter, five to nine times. I mean, so I weigh about 150 pounds right now I’m putting about 800 pounds of force into the ground. Now I can’t put 800 pounds on my back and do anything. So it’s a very interesting question. How is it that you can tolerate these forces when you’re doing these activities, but you can’t replicate that? So and, and I would argue that, well, this thing that I’ve always found interesting, I can train as hard as I want in a given day. I can get on the track and do, you know, five all out sprints of whatever distance I’m training for. And maybe I’m sore for the next day or so at a race, I warm up, I do one race and I can’t walk for a week. Like, so what’s, you know, it’s like what’s different about just that little bit extra because I’m not going that much faster frankly. But it’s a whole different game that just does a whole different thing to your physiology. So, so yeah, so the, the force that you’re, you’re handling is quite a bit. But so this is actually a point that I was looking forward to talking to you about is since you can’t replicate that exact kind of force because some of the force has to do with this, the ground contact time. So the same amount of weight that’s hitting the ground if it’s slow to get on and off is different than if it’s fast to get on and off because that’s one way of increasing forces is shorter time. So say more about just what you’re doing with this type of work. And then the, the, the look, it’s closer than just doing, doing squats for training, for sprinting, for example. We don’t. This is not just all about sprinting obviously, but talk about, you know, the. While you can’t replicate perfectly how this is what this is doing differently than not replicating at all.

Sam Davis
Yeah. So to your point, kind of coming full circle to the previous conversation, like you said, you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna back squat 800 pounds. Like most of us aren’t gonna be able to get to that point. Like it’s just not a common thing to see. However, if we’re saying through research that every time your foot hits the ground, there’s that much force going through that foot. When you’re sprinting and you’re doing, you know, 50, 60, 100, 200 reps of that while you’re on the track doing your sprint, like there’s, there’s something there that we need to, to address. So going back to what you mentioned earlier, the guy trying to press the rock off of them once again, I just don’t think you’re able to actively and consciously back squat a certain amount of weight. However, that doesn’t mean you’re not physiologically able to express that in the given circumstance. Right. So when your foot hits the ground, it’s not as much of a conscious driver, it’s more of a reactive component. Your foot hits the ground, the impulse comes in, your body responds. So it goes through this, this quick circuit through the, basically from all the, the receptors in the foot and everything up goes to the spinal cord and right back down to where it came from. Everything happens extremely quickly. So to get into more of the, the why, of, of why we’re doing the depth drop, we’re trying to replicate those same things as if you were sprinting. So when we hit the ground, if we hit the ground firm in the position that we want to be strong in, it’s going to be much, much more similar to both the amount of force and also the speed of which that force enters the body, comparable to sprinting. So I, I mean, I’ve tested this several times using force blades, using EMG data. When you are basically if you had someone do a, a counter movement jump. So if they’re standing on a force plate, they start tall, they pull down, jump up as high as they can, and then they stick the landing afterwards. What’s interesting, if you watch all those numbers on the, on the graph when you go to push off. So, so most people are going to think that the biggest peak force would be right when you’re about to jump and push off into the ground, right? It’s not, you’re going to get a pretty good little jump up, but then obviously you’re going to go into the air, it drops back to zero. And then when you first hit the, hit the ground, when you land back down onto those force plates, you see this massive spike in force over a very, very tiny amount of time. So it’s, you know, milliseconds and it’s, it’s unbelievable numbers. And what I’ve seen from just me personally, the few times I’ve tested it, I, we’re talking like two or three thousand pounds of force going through my body with Both feet, but still 2 or 3,000 pounds of force. Yeah, I’m never going to experience that in the weight room. It’s just not going to happen.

Steven Sashen
You know what, actually, it’s funny, I just thought of something that I used to. So I have a, I have a machine. It’s not really a machine because it doesn’t move in certain ways that I was given. A while back, I bumped into some guys who were doing, who were doing certain kinds of isometric training. They develop machines for isometric training. Basically a force gauge so you could see how much force you’re applying to something. And so they had a leg press where you, you’re not actually moving, you’re not pressing the weight. You’re just finding the strongest position that you feel like is right for you and just pushing against a plate and it shows you how much force you’re applying. Now, at that time, I could back squat, I don’t know, like 350. But when I pushed as hard as I could, like 2,500, £2,700. And even that doesn’t replicate what we’re talking about because you kind of get into it slowly and then push as hard as you can. It didn’t have the speed that would actually increase the, the what would be showing up on the force gauge. But the first time you do that, it’s, it’s freaky.

Sam Davis
Yeah.

Steven Sashen
And then if you’re gonna go, if you’re gonna go and try and replicate that in a gym, it’s very funny where you pick every 45 pound weight they have in the gym, stick it on something, and then, you know, you move it a half an inch and people go, that’s bullshit. I go, no, no, no, there’s a reason for doing it. It just looks stupid as hell.

Sam Davis
Yeah.

Steven Sashen
So describe, so describe, you know, doing, doing the, doing. Well, the various ways that you would do these kinds of movements so that people can get a picture in their head before we send them to a video to watch you doing it.

Sam Davis
Yeah. So I mean, the, the, the standard, the basic depth drop is going to be you stepping off of a box, which in general, like, if you’re an athlete and you’re somebody that wants to start implementing these things, in my opinion, the best way to do so would be if you know roughly how high you can jump. So let’s say, you know, you have a 18 inch vertical, then that’s probably a safe starting point. Your brain’s comfortable with you jumping that high and absorbing that impact naturally. You’re probably Good around that range. So I definitely would never suggest someone go do the, the stupid things you see me doing on, on my videos. No need to jump off a ladder. It’s a bad idea for most people. But all that to say the, the general thing that I’m looking for is you are stepping off the box, you’re trying to land in, you know, whatever is considered an athletic position for your sport. So if you’re just a general person like, like, you know, you and I probably. I’m going to land in what’s considered an athletic position. So there’s a slight bend in the knee, slight bend in the hips. You’re able to tolerate the impact and get a lot of force through the quads and the glutes specifically. But you can do whatever you want. I mean, I do it sometimes where I’m just bored and I, instead of wanting to land in that athletic position, I’m trying to land in the bottom of a squat position where I’m going to hit a lot more, more force in a different regions. It’s just going to change where the energy ends up. Another one I really like is basically jumping or stepping off and landing in that ISO lunge position that I mentioned earlier. So I’m going to purposely step off, kick one leg out in front, one back behind. I’m trying to land already in that position. So once again a totally different way that that energy is coming into the body and really you can apply this to upper body ideas, you can apply it to anything that you want to. So one of the, one of the classics I go to for upper body would be a push up depth drop. So I’ve got two little boxes on the ground. A lot of times I start off in a kneeling position, but I’m set up so that I’m in between the boxes. Okay. So I’ve got a hand on each side trying to get into a position where I’m just barely fitting between them. And then I’m going to come up out of it into a kneeling position, fall forward and then catch myself on those boxes at in range of the push up. So you get that same idea going through the pecs, through the delts. Like everything is going to be experiencing that same concept that you’re doing for the lower body, but you can do it for anything.

Steven Sashen
Is that similar to, I mean, I’m thinking of the things, the sort of the upside down version that, the bench press version, the kind of, you know, the barbell drop thing. Can you. That’s my favorite crazy looking thing. Because you catch that wrong. And yeah, you’re gonna, yeah, you’re gonna be having a squeaky voice for a little while. But. So describe that. Describe that lunacy.

Sam Davis
Yeah, so to some, to some degree, all the things that I do, there’s, there’s the, the risk reward scale.

Steven Sashen
No, no, no. There’s the risk reward click scale.

Sam Davis
Yeah, it’s like, I mean it’s like I, I do it because I enjoy it. I’ve done enough of this stuff over the years where I feel confident, I feel, I feel capable to doing so. And it’s also exciting, it’s fun for me. And like I said before, my whole thing is I like helping people prepare for whatever they want to be able to do and I also help people that are already injured and having issues and whatever it may be. So I kind of have the, I’m, I guess I’m on the side of the scale where I play a little bit more on the higher risk side of things because if something happens, like I kind of already have the tool to address it. So you know, it’s like not, maybe not for everybody, but for me I like it. But anyways, going back to what you’re saying, the, the same concept, like you said, you’re set up in a bench press and then you are at the top of the rep, you’re going to release the bar. So you’re going to let go, pull your arms down to that end range. So basically, you know, inch or two above the chest, catch it, stop it abruptly and then come back up to the top. So same exact thing as that, that push up depth drop, it just makes it a new variable. It’s a more, more novel, more exciting version of that.

Steven Sashen
Yes. Start with something very light and not necessarily in range of motion because, because it’s a juggling act and, and very, I got to tell you, because I’m nuts. It was one of the first things I saw and my first thought was

Sam Davis
oh, I, that, yeah, which couldn’t be bad. But yes, but yeah, to your point, like most people that I work with, if they wanted to explore stuff like that, I’m going to have them with literally a, you know, a 1 inch PVC pipe that’s about 4ft long. So the risk there is very minimal. You know, you drop that thing, it’s going to hurt for three seconds and you’re fine. But to the point where like, yeah, I’ve had guys do 225 pounds where they drop it and catch it just above their chest. So I mean it’s all across the spectrum and depending on, on what your goals are, what your needs are, it’s. And also, you know, how, how much fun you want to have. Going back to what you said earlier.

Steven Sashen
Well, to that point, I got a psychological thing like if you’re gonna, you know, do that with a, with £225, I can only imagine that you are starting to replicate a certain aspect of performance, which is terror. And, you know, and that is very focusing. And, um, you know, it’s like, it’s like, you know, as a sprinter, the, the start of a race, I mean, just going. When the gun goes off, that start, there’s just a waiting and there’s an anticipation and there’s an anxiety and that makes it all work. Um, so, yeah, when you’re starting to really push the limits of those things, I can only imagine that that same kind of, there’s that same mindset of just that kind of, you know, that excited, anxious, attention, focus thing, because you know it’s going to be bad if you mess it up.

Sam Davis
And, and to your point there, think about a sprinter that has a history of, of, you know, pulling a hamstring in a race. Yeah. And then that’s a whole nother level of fear that every time they get up to those blocks, they’re thinking about, is this race, is this going to do it? Is it gonna. Is gonna happen again? And we need to prepare and train accordingly so that everything that we’re doing in the weight room in a controlled environment makes everything they’re going to do out there a piece of cake.

Steven Sashen
It’s so funny you say that. Back in the days when I used to get injured, the way that I knew that I was okay to go full speed was when I realized that going not full speed, I had forgotten about what had happened and I was feeling fearless. And then I just knew I’d be safe. It was kind of upside down, but it was a very reliable thing. It’s like, oh, that workout, I totally forgot that I had been injured and, and I’m just not afraid to go. Although, to be clear, for anyone who’s thinking about sprinting, because there’s a whole lot of people thinking that you should be sprinting. People who are talking about high intensity, whatever, and they go, go sprint. And most people don’t know how to sprint. They don’t know what the form is. They don’t know how to do it. When I got back into sprinting, it took me two and a half years till I was not afraid to Go full speed. And. And I had been a sprinter as a kid. I just had a 30 year break. So, you know, for anyone who’s never done it, like move in slowly and wait until you feel that confidence is not something you can fake. So just pay attention to that one. So. And talk to me again. I mean, we talked about isometric and tendons and various other things. So this kind of work, is it. What do you call this?

Sam Davis
Well, I kind of, I mean I kind of just clump it in with my, with my plyometric work. Even though it’s not technically. Yeah, unless you add the, the concentric portion afterwards. So honestly, I think about it as just interacting with the world. It’s all about just force. It’s force, basically force interaction.

Steven Sashen
Because you need a name. You need a name, you got to get a trademark. It’s marketable.

Sam Davis
I don’t know.

Steven Sashen
Come on, baby.

Sam Davis
I’ll think about it, I’ll get back to you. But really, I mean, that’s all it is. It’s how does your body interact with the ground or whatever? If in your sport, if you play, you know, football and you’re pressing against them, it’s the ground and the other person.

Steven Sashen
No, no, this is, this is. I’m going to take it one step easier. Think about the times where you forget where the last step is, or you forget where the first step is, or you trip or something and you’re catching yourself, or where you drop something and you catch it, or I mean the innumerable times where something accidental happens. And this is the exact thing that you’re trying to do with your body is apply the right amount of force as fast as humanly possible in these same joint angles. I mean, I did it the other day where I had the lights off and I don’t know what I was thinking and I thought the first step was where I was and it was not there. And I basically did a dumbed down version of what we just talked about, of like catching myself and not falling on my face when I stepped on the invisible step. So I would make an argument that this could be really, really valuable and done very, very attentively for an aging population and where, you know, there’s some people who are doing work on improving balance for people who have not had balance issues. And happy to say there’s research that showed elderly people who just walk in Xero Shoes over the course of time. Feet got stronger, balance got better, risk of fall got reduced. But there was some other point to that that I totally forgot. But oh, that. This is the kind of training that I would. Arg. Just, you know, could be. Really, really. Oh, that’s. Sorry. I know what I was. So some people are teaching balance and strength for the elderly, which is great. Other people are teaching how to fall, which is also good. This is lying in the middle of that of like.

Sam Davis
Yeah, exactly. No, I think a lot of, A lot of, Lot of really good things you just said there that we could kind of play with. The. The one thing that I really like is, is thinking about the older populations where, as we know, you tend to slow down. Right? You tend to not be, as, you know, heavily focused on strength and power and athletic movement. It tends to be all slow and controlled. And I, I really do think that that’s one thing that especially in the mid middle age population, maybe not so much the geriatric parting.

Steven Sashen
Please, please, please give me numbers for middle age. I want to hear you. I want to hear you. Let me hear this one.

Sam Davis
I’d say, oof. This is.

Steven Sashen
I know, I know this is gonna be dangerous. This is more dangerous than jumping off a ladder.

Sam Davis
50 to 65 is middle age.

Steven Sashen
Well played, well played. Since I’m turning 64 next week.

Sam Davis
Correct. You’re not a senior yet. But, but realistically, the, the middle age category, you know, where you’re not truly geriatric, you’re. You’re in the, the, you’re still active. You’re still active, but you’re. Maybe you should be doing a little bit more quicker movements because I really do think that if your focus is only on just general strength and on. And that’s even like, that’s being generous because most people aren’t doing anything right. But if you are doing just strength training alone, that’s gonna be so much better than nothing. But I really think people need to include some level of power or quick movement to be able to tap into exactly what you just said.

Steven Sashen
And it only occurred to me now, although it’s not. No one will be surprised when I say this about. There’s a couple things about people moving slower. One of it is, especially for elderly people, however, you’re defining that where they start getting prescribed big, thick, you know, giant super cushion shoes, and they start walking slowly, more slowly immediately, because their brain can’t feel where their feet are. So they start shuffling and it’s a vicious cycle downward. And amazingly, there’s research that came out of Duke University years ago showing that walking speed is directly correlated to mortality risk. And so if you’re. I don’t remember what the number is, if you’re walking under this miles per hour, your risk of dying in five years is like through the roof and, and footwear is getting in the way of that. Same thing for just wearing heavily cushioned things is going to slow down. It’s going to slow down everything we’re talking about because you’re just not getting the feedback or even the ability to apply pressure quickly because the pressure is being absorbed by the, the pressure is being mitigate. The force is still going somewhere, but you’re not. But like you said at the very beginning, the first thing that happens when your foot hits the ground is it’s going to get information to go up to the base of the spine to pre. To activate everything that’s going to be involved. And if you’re mitigating that pressure, that information is not getting to the right place at all or at the right time. And then it’s going to end up putting force into the joints. And by the time you notice that you are, and I think this is a medical term, screwed.

Sam Davis
I agree. Yeah, no, it’s so, you know, I’m sure you talked with a ton of different people. I’m completely on the same page with all that stuff because I think, I think Xero Shoes was probably the, the first minimalist shoe that I bought back in like 2017, 2018. It’s been a while and I, I have stuck with that since then. I really, truly believe the, the importance of being able to have that pressure and that input into the foot. I mean there’s so much research out there nowadays where, you know, think about all the, the hundreds of thousands of receptors built into the foot on purpose because really when you think about like it’s a, it’s a very tiny structure in comparison to the height of the person that needs to be able to interpret information and respond appropriately and essentially give information throughout the entire body and the brain specifically to coordinate everything. Yeah, it’s the only thing that’s interacting with an external surface all the time. So I think it’s super overlooked and I think to your point, like the, the big old squishy shoes that drive me nuts, especially when I see old people walking around in them.

Steven Sashen
Oh, that drives me. You know, the irony of that, I mean that one pains me more than any other thing. But the irony is what made those shoes take off and become popular and considered was elderly population when HOKA came out back and like 09 around the time that, you know, we started Xero Shoes, it just didn’t take off at all in the performance athletic world there are a few people who got really into it but it never became what people thought it was going to be. But once it became more popular in general, then, then the experimenting started. And now it’s, you know like I did a, I did a little rant about this that got published a little while ago. Just about the guys who just ran the sub 2 hour marathon for real. And it’s like, well, the shoe they were wearing was lighter than anything else has ever been worn other than being bar foot. And it was, it was high enough that, and light enough so that it wasn’t changing their cadence and speed is just cadence steps per minute times stride length and high enough that it’s increasing their stride length. So what a shock. But at the same time my other point that I like to make is what do you care What a guy, 102 pound Kenyan who ran a marathon in one hour and 59 minutes does when you are a, you know, whatever the hell you are. Like if, if the photographer Ansel Adams had a $20,000 camera and you went and bought that camera, your pictures would still suck. So yeah, someone told me a great story. He had a roommate who was a professional photographer and had like a ten thousand dollar camera. But they were up near where Kodak was based. So as an experiment Kodak gave them the first Instamatic cameras. And the pictures they took with these Instamatics were amazing. So you’re a good photographer not because of the equipment. You’re a good runner not because of the equipment. And you can also be a worse runner because of the equipment. But anyway, be that as it may. All right, let’s move on. Because wait, when we started this, there was three things that we talked about. We talked about ISO, we talked about whatever you are going to be naming this so you can finally trademark it. And you very small commission. And what was the third one? I can’t remember right now.

Sam Davis
The, the Volta was something I think we had discussed. The, we had talked about off. Off air. That’s the.

Steven Sashen
You said. It’s like there were three things that you’re. I can’t remember. People have to listen and remind me. Well, if we can’t remember, that’s okay. What were we talking about before we started? I don’t remember that. What day is today? Who am I?

Sam Davis
Thursday. That’s about all I know.

Steven Sashen
Even that was going to stump me. Well, maybe I’m hallucinating like I’m an AI and there was no third thing. And this is frankly, you know more than enough for people to consider. Let’s have that conversation though about a. If people want to start experimenting with some of this, and I highly encourage people to do it. Before we say how to find you, let’s just talk about the principles of doing this. Because when you said something about getting used to doing a particular, you know, doing an ISO hold and it could take six months for getting used to it, that’s on the one hand the kind of thing that scares people away because everybody wants immediate responses and immediate, whatever immediate results. And we’re not suggesting that that won’t happen, but that. So it’s a different. So talk about. In the same way people ask me about the transition of barefoot shoes, talk about getting into these things and you hinted at it before, but let’s just dive in a little deeper.

Sam Davis
Yeah, I mean, like you said, even, even if you’re doing 30 seconds here and there throughout your, you know, just sprinkling it into your, your regular routine so you know, whether it’s in your gym session or just, you know, before you go to bed, doesn’t matter. But if you start incorporating just some very simple patterns, some, some in range work in these positions and actively thinking about what you’re doing, I think you can see a whole lot of benefit pretty quickly just in the ability to get into these positions and the ability to move around fluidly and not feel stiff and rigid and, and bound up. So I think anyone can implement this stuff in a very low level and still get benefit. However, the more you dive into it, the more you get out of it, just like a lot of things in life. So it really does take time to get good and efficient and to the point where you are accepting of that, that level of misery to want to continue to do more. That’s a factor for sure.

Steven Sashen
Keep in mind there, you know, we forget the pain when we experience the benefits. One example of this is I go to Costco every Sunday afternoon and every time I’m just glad they don’t sell weapons there. And yet, you know, I keep going or the phenomenon. I had kidney stones or actually it was just once, but it happened over like a three day window. And on day one I thought the pain was a good nine. And on day two I realized that day one was like a four. And I can tell that story, but I can’t recreate the feeling in my body. So the pain when you’re doing it will leave you, it’ll be gone very quickly. Even if you end up sore and have to use your Hands to get on and off the toilet. But the, but the effect, you know, the benefit you’re going to experience will. On the one hand, it will make it easier. On the other hand, you know, there’s going to be times where you’re going to have to wrestle with that in your mind. And if you have a partner or some help or we’re going to talk about you more specifically, that can be really, really important. I mean, I’ve had that just in the last couple weeks where, you know, I. My training sessions are very short and very intense. And, and I definitely, for the first time in like two years, I was like, maybe I’ll skip this one. And luckily I had a partner and a trainer and I didn’t skip it. And then I felt great at the end of that, doing that. But, but because I knew and because it was leg day, and leg day is always just the, the way you become a client of this guy, he gives you a free leg day session and if you come back afterwards, he knows you’re insane.

Sam Davis
That’s smart.

Steven Sashen
It weeds out the, like, that totally weeds people out. It’s, you know, and I don’t know if he figured that out on purpose, but. But yeah, like when I was still waddling a week later and I called him back and went, yeah, okay, we got to do this. So anyway, so why don’t we. So let’s talk about that. Yes, Anything about. Just like, if you want to think about a specific exercise, like one or two, to say, here’s a good way to titrate your way into it, and then we’ll talk about people finding you.

Sam Davis
Yeah. Kind of going back to what we mentioned before. I mean, the ISO lunge, in my opinion, is going to be the best place to start because it has so much carryover to everything you do all day long. Yeah. You know, you can do all the upper body stuff you want. You can do anything with this, this concept. But realistically, once again, like we said, the feet are the only thing that are hitting the ground all day long. So if the, if the legs and the hips and everything aren’t able to move, well, that’s going to affect everything upwards. So if I were to pick one, I’d say start there and, and like I said, and we can even, you know, after, you know, I can mention where to, like, find more information about, you know, videos and how to see this stuff.

Steven Sashen
Oh, we’re getting there. We’re getting there.

Sam Davis
More, more clarity. But yeah, to keep it very simple. Just a few days a Week, try to get, you know, accumulate a couple minutes worth of time, whether it’s 10 second intervals or 30 seconds, whatever you can start with. It doesn’t have to be super structured. Just start doing it, start getting in these positions and pretty quickly you’ll start to feel some changes.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, I was thinking about the push up one. I want to highlight that the reason for having one reason for having boxes is if somehow you screw it up, you’ve got time to catch yourself before you land your face.

Sam Davis
So definitely.

Steven Sashen
Yeah, I, I thought of that when I had a roommate 40 something years ago who was getting into an argument with someone about doing push ups and they were drunk and he basically just missed his. I mean he was on the ground and just didn’t know how far the ground was from his face and just face planted. Yes, it was.

Sam Davis
Happens for the best of us.

Steven Sashen
Well, this guy, he would be the one to say it. He had some shock absorption from his nose.

Sam Davis
That’s good. Yeah.

Steven Sashen
So if people do want to find out more about this and more importantly about you and getting some instruction etc and working with you in whatever way, you can talk about how they can do that.

Sam Davis
Yeah. So I’m most active on Instagram, so on there, my handle, whatever it’s called, it’s neurologic fitness. So neurologic fitness, all one word, no spaces or anything. And on there, I mean you’re gonna see like you mentioned all kinds of crazy videos, silly stuff happening, but also a lot of resources. So I try to, I think in the, in the bio you can click and see like guides to the ISO extremes, you can find guides to depth drops, you can find just all the basic foundational stuff that I think it’s just low hanging fruit for people to start to implement right away. So yeah, I’m always happy to chat, you know, send me a message, just reach out. We can always set something up and have a conversation if needed.

Steven Sashen
Brilliant. I think that’s a good suggestion. So Sam, thank you, thank you. I mean, once again, I got to tell you, I used to do episodes like every week and over. My God, it’s been many, many years. It’s now gotten to be pretty much monthly because it’s very hard to find anyone doing something interesting or unusual. And so I was so thrilled that, that when I bumped into you, however the algorithm told me to do so right now the YouTube algorithm thinks all I want to hear is obscure Middle Eastern religious music, which because I watched one video and now suddenly that’s it. Now I can’t Complain. It’s all really cool, but nonetheless, it’s, it’s. Yeah. So that and that and things about barefoot shoes, that’s all I get fed on YouTube these days, so I’m really grateful. I get pitched all the time from someone where they go, hey, you know, we have this new program. It’s like, it’s just the same stuff everyone else is doing. There’s no. You have. Not really what I appreciate about what you’ve done. And, and this is actually kind of a, I was going to say a lesson for everyone. That’s. But that’s way too arrogant. This is something that is. I hope somebody, People consider this. What you did is, is you. I don’t know where it started, what inspired you, but you clearly were curious enough to start looking into things in a way that was just not the status quo. Just not repeating what you’d heard from your, your training from, you know, all the stuff that you did as a strength initiative coach to begin with. And that’s my favorite thing. It’s like, let’s just look at this and see if there’s some other thing that makes sense. And clearly, you know, you, you were well versed in Verkishansky and Plyometrics and all the rest. But then even that, it’s like, you know, and for people who don’t know who he is, he’s, he was a Russian trainer and there’s, there’s videos of people jumping off eight foot ladders and immediately bounding onto some other thing. I mean, I mean, as crazy as your stuff is, that stuff is Looney Tunes.

Sam Davis
Oh, yeah, definitely.

Steven Sashen
Yeah. So. And I don’t know that there’s anyone in the world who’s doing that right now, because it was Looney Tunes, so. But fascinating. So I really, I love it when people decide to like, look underneath the surface and go, wait, what’s the real thing that’s going on here? And how can we. Because again, it’s not like you can exactly simulate the things that you’re doing even in your daily life, let alone in high performance sport, but getting closer is a, is a really, really big deal. The carryovers. The joke with sprinting with and weightlifting is you’re gonna, in the off season, get stronger and then as soon as you start sprinting, you’re gonna lose most of that because you didn’t need it to begin with. First time I deadlifted £400, it was like, oh, that’s really cool. Now I got over 500. It’s like, oh, happily my Next thought was don’t be a. But there’s no value as a sprinter for being able to deadlift stupid amounts of weight. Once you’re over about twice your body weight, that’s all you need for, you know, for. Yeah, then it’s a different kind of strength. So, anyway, absolutely my long way of saying, really thrilled that, that we connected. So. Yeah, sorry.

Sam Davis
Well, I was just gonna say to, to your point, I mean, that’s, you know, I, I don’t ever claim to, to have created any of these things. It’s all from, you know, previous people that I’ve just had the opportunity to learn from. My, My coaching motto is to basically consistently be the dumbest person in the room. And that, that tends to work really, really well. You learn a lot that way.

Steven Sashen
My, My gymnastics coach through junior high and high school, who’s still a dear friend, he, he’s the. One of the most amazing coaches I’ve ever met and teachers of any kind for a number of reasons. And one is, to this day, he’s. And he would. We just celebrated his 75th birthday last year. To this day, he’s willing to learn something new and redo everything that he had from the ground up. I mean, I remember years ago, he learned from some Russian coach that if you just put your hands out in front of you and clasp your fingers together, interweave your fingers, whichever finger is on top, your first finger, whichever finger is on top, dictates the way you should be doing a round off. And. And then he kind of learned why that would be. And then he went back to his Olympic level gymnasts and found out that many of them were going in the opposite direction. And he said, okay, for the next four weeks or eight weeks, all we’re going to be doing is round offs, one of the most basic moves in gymnastics. Not surprisingly, the parents were losing their minds. Sure. And eight weeks later, when he started integrating that into the rest of what they did, everything was better. And then I had a flashback. He did that to me, like, three years in. I spent the entire summer doing, like, three of this, the first moves I ever learned. And I just, I was beside myself with frustration. And by the next season. Oh, why did my scores just go up by four points? So. So, yeah, I love that we’re all standing on the shoulders of other people, but many people don’t know how to get off the shoulders and stand up on their own. Good on you.

Sam Davis
Yeah, I appreciate it.

Steven Sashen
Well, please, everyone, do check out the places that Sam said you can find him. And take a look at the stuff and let us both know what happens when you start to experiment with these things. I think you’re going to be pleasantly surprised with a little bit of masochism thrown in for fun. And so, just a reminder, you can head over to www.jointhemovementmovement.com and find all the previous episodes, all the ways you can engage with us on social media. If you have any recommendations or suggestions or complaints or people that you think should be on the show. Especially if you can find someone who thinks I have a case of cranial rectal reorientation syndrome, you can email me at move M O V E. Join themovementmovement.com but most importantly, go out, have fun and live life feet first. And stop recording.