As a movement coach, Petra Fisher creates exercise programs to help you become mobile, strong, functional and more connected with your body.
Her programs aren’t the same old ‘lose weight or die trying’ approach. Instead, she’ll teach you how to move your body with love: safely, efficiently and effectively!
Her courses are based on the latest movement science with a focus on mindfulness and learning, so you can create truly sustainable long-term wellness and feel great.
Hundreds of people all over the world are in Petra’s Take10 movement coaching, her Joints For Life mobility course and her signature Build Better Feet program. They’ve learned how to exercise sustainably, create whole body strength, and become friends with their bodies again.
Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Petra Fisher about building better feet.
Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:
– How getting injured might be the best thing that can happen for your feet.
– Why it’s essential to have functional and healthy feet.
– How to relieve foot pain so you can live a more active life.
– How being in pain makes it difficult to enjoy life.
– Why moving more is an investment in your future.
Connect with Petra:
Guest Contact Info
Instagram
@petrafishermovement
Facebook
facebook.com/petrafishermovement
Links Mentioned:
petrafishermovement.com
Connect with Steven:
Website
Twitter
@XeroShoes
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@xeroshoes
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facebook.com/xeroshoes
Episode Transcript
Steven Sashen:
Getting injured is probably the best thing that could happen to you. In fact, you may want to go out and get injured today. We’re going to find out more about that on today’s episode, not ipisode, episode of The MOVEMENT Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body, starting with the feet first because those things down there are your foundation for everything above that.
We break down the propaganda mythology, sometimes the outright lies you’ve heard, about what it takes to run, to walk, to hike, to play, to lift, to do CrossFit, yoga, whatever it is you like to do on your feet, and to do that enjoyably and healthily. And did I mention enjoyably? Because if you’re not having fun, do something else until you are. I’m Steven Sashen from XeroShoes.com, your host. And we call this The MOVEMENT Movement podcast because we’re creating a movement about movement.
The creating a movement means that involves you. I’ll come back to that in a second. And the about movement is that we believe that we can help people rediscover that the natural movement is the obvious, better, healthy choice, the way people currently think of natural food. And so, the movement part of the national movement means that you are the community that spreads this message.
And when we hit a certain critical mass, eventually, everyone’s going to remember this. And it’s not even discovering it anew. It’s the way human beings have been living since the beginning of human beings. So, if you want to know how to be part of the movement, it’s really simple. Go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. And that’s where you can find all the previous episodes and all the different ways you can interact with this content.
You can find us on YouTube and Instagram and Facebook and all the… et cetera, et cetera, and all the different places the podcast is. And of course, review, like, share, give us a thumbs-up, hit the bell on YouTube. In short, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. So, let’s jump in with this question of, do you want to go out and get injured? And to answer this question, we have Petra Fisher on here. Petra, who the hell are you? And what are you doing here?
Petra Fisher:
Hi, Steven. It’s delightful to be here. I am a person who got injured. It changed my life. So, it’s good to be talking about this today.
Steven Sashen:
Wait. Wait. Before we get into the-
Petra Fisher:
I am-
Steven Sashen:
Hold on. Wait. Before we get into talking about you getting injured and why you think injury can be a really valuable thing, actually, two thoughts. I’m going to do it in this order. It’s funny, the way we talk about saying this was, what’s the simplest thing we can say in the most incendiary way possible? And I’m reminded of a friend of mine who gave me that idea, who was going on Oprah. He’s a psychologist.
And I said, “What are you going to say on Oprah?” He said, “I’m going to say that an affair is the best thing that can happen to your marriage. And everyone’s head is going to explode. And I’m going to say, well, what that means is, if someone had an affair, there was some unspoken truth that led to that. And if you can articulate it and have the courage to articulate it, that could actually resolve things and make your relationship even better than it was.”
But here’s the other thing before you get started in your “why injury is so awesome” story. Often, because it’s The MOVEMENT Movement podcast, we ask people if they want to share something that people could do to move, whether they’re walking around or in their car… they’re probably not in their car right now… or just sitting around. So, I know I’m putting you on the spot. We didn’t prep for this.
Can you think of a movement thing that you would want to share with people? And if you can’t, that’s cool. We can go on. But I thought I’d throw it out there and put you under the hot lights.
Petra Fisher:
I can always think of a movement thing too.
Steven Sashen:
I had a hunch that this would not be a challenge.
Petra Fisher:
Movement is what I do, Steven.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, yeah.
Petra Fisher:
I’m going to share it’s such a simple thing. And anyone can do it. If you’re near a doorway, it is one of the best stretches that you can do. All you need to do… it needs to be a solid doorway… you don’t want a flimsy doorway for this… nice solid doorway or something to grab onto. You snake your hand onto the other side of the doorway, and you grab on. And you start stepping your feet into the doorway and leaning away from the doorway until you get a nice stretch happening at your shoulders.
And then, maybe turn yourself sideways, and that is going to help you undo all that tightness. Yeah, you’re totally nailing it.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, I love it.
Petra Fisher:
Just leaning backwards is going to be a way to get some of that awesome hanging juice into your shoulders that they miss out when you’re on computers and in meetings all day.
Steven Sashen:
So, Lena and I, when we’re not at the office, you will find us in what is our second bedroom, which is where we have our television. So, it’s our guest bedroom/television room. And we have a chin-up bar on… there’s a bathroom as part of this bedroom. So, we have a chin-up bar there. And as we walk in, we always do a stretch. But this is perfect for those times where you don’t have something like that.
And just that hanging, stretching to open up those shoulders is so, so good. And most people don’t think of that. So, that’s on the other hot side of your body than your feet, but also really, really overlooked. So, I love it. Cool. All right. So, jumping in. So, let’s chat about injuries and how wonderful they can be.
Petra Fisher:
All right. So, let’s frame that a little bit. Obviously, no one wants to get injured, and I certainly didn’t. And I have a long history of chronic injuries every time I tried doing any kind of sports. And the reason this ended up being wonderful for me was because one of the most recent round of really difficult injuries was when… back in my corporate days, I was a lawyer working in Toronto, doing the most corporate, evil type of law you could imagine.
And my stress relief was running. I have flat feet. And so, I started getting all the running injuries you could possibly imagine.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I want to pause there.
Petra Fisher:
And it was really frustrating because-
Steven Sashen:
I’m going to pause-
Petra Fisher:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Steven Sashen:
… to say you weren’t getting injuries because you had flat feet, speaking as someone who had lifelong, comic-level flat feet. But nonetheless, I just want to clarify for people who might have flat feet, thinking that we’re saying that flat feet causes injuries, which we’re not. So, anyway, continuing.
Petra Fisher:
I brought that up because I was given all the motion-control shoes that existed in the world. So, everybody wanted to fix my running for me with the shoes. And it wasn’t until I started going deep into the world of manual and movement therapy that I started realizing that there was something much more fundamentally wrong with me. And it wasn’t really me. It was just because I didn’t know the technique, and I didn’t have the right shoes.
And it led to me going down this pathway of turning into a movement coach instead of a lawyer, which has truly been the best thing that’s ever happened to me.
Steven Sashen:
So, what kind of injuries were you getting? I mean, was there a pivotal moment that was the (singing), one of those things with the angels blaring in the sky, lightning and doves flying overhead, and chocolate flowing and fountains? What were the injuries? What was that transition moment? And what was the first thing that you did?
Petra Fisher:
Wow. It was all of them. I had shin splints. I had nerve issues. I had plantar fasciitis. I started having some hip problems. Everything that I did seem to be a thing. And there was less a single moment when I was like, “This has to change.” Actually, that’s not true. There were two moments. Number one was the first time I went to a rehab Pilates specialist. And she showed me the way that I stood.
And the way I was standing was the way that most people who wear shoes with heels stand habitually, is when you come out of your shoes with heels, you still stand like you’re wearing heels. That tends to carry forward into your body if you sit a lot and wear heels. So, realizing that my pelvis was way forward and squashing my feet all the time was a huge light bulb moment, like one of those moments when you realize that, by changing how you move, you can change everything and heal and fix yourself. So, that was a huge one.
And then, the second light bulb moment was after I was doing this rehab Pilates and seeing these massage therapists. I was getting really interested in bodies. And I started a personal training. And I had a client who needed some help with her squat. So, I started Googling. And I found Katy Bowman’s classic blog articles on how to squat better. And my life changed forever. All I wanted to do was to learn from Katy. And that is all I did for the next several years.
And so, that was really the moment when I was like, “Oh, my God, how you move changes everything.”
Steven Sashen:
Squatting, it’s so funny. I think about, how do you… I know that’s a loaded question.
Petra Fisher:
Don’t worry about it.
Steven Sashen:
Okay. So, I’m about to turn 58. And the amount of time that I spend sitting on the floor, squatting, doing all these things, getting up and down, almost every time I do it, I think that… when I was growing up, I didn’t know anyone who did that. My parents didn’t do that. None of their friends did that. And yet, it’s so common everywhere else in the world. And it’s something that, for whatever reason, I’ve always done. A lot of my friends do as well.
I mean, when I was first living in Manhattan, I don’t think I owned any furniture because I couldn’t afford it. So, I had a futon on the floor. I had some other pillows on the floor. And it seemed totally fine. Of course, many people thought it was crazy. Others thought it was super cool. So, you started squatting.
Petra Fisher:
And that’s still how it’s going to be.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So, you-
Petra Fisher:
I started doing everything Katy Bowman said to do. And so, I started with research about squatting and to help my client work on her squatting technique. But I don’t know how familiar you are with Katy’s work. But she’s a biomechanist who combines this idea that natural movement is the movement humans should have, the same way that natural food is the food that humans should have, with a series of small corrective exercises to restore the capacity to move in those ways.
So, most of us, as you know, will struggle to squat well because we’re missing the capacity without doing the build-up first.
Steven Sashen:
So, what happened with that one client then?
Petra Fisher:
We fixed her squat. And she and I are friends to this day. We work together for a long time after that. She no longer-
Steven Sashen:
And then, talk about-
Petra Fisher:
She did something fun.
Steven Sashen:
And talk about, then, what happened for you, moving forward. There was the light bulb moment, if you will, starting to learn to squat and starting to research. What changed? I mean, I have my own version of this, of learning about my running form and how that corrected my injuries. And then, I became a faster runner and masters All-American sprinter and blah, blah, blah.
But it’s a question that people ask all the time, like how long is it going to take for me to transition? Or what do I need to do next? And people are often looking for a very linear program. And I always have this very idiosyncratic… there’s too much individual difference. But I’m curious both what happened for you and then what you’ve discovered as you’ve been working with Katy.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. Sure. I found Katy when I was still working in the corporate world. So, I transitioned from law. And I was working in a government office at that point doing policy work. So, I studied Katy’s work. And I joined her certification program probably about a week after that. So, I was studying and working. And so, I got a standing desk at work. And I convinced my entire office they should all have standing desks. So, I’m sure that my managers weren’t super happy about it.
I started teaching at the office. So, I was all in right away. So, that was really cool to practice that and learn it. And I got certified by Katy about six months afterwards. So, I switched from corporate world into move coaching and pretty much committed my life and my business to both moving more naturally and to teaching. So, it was a double-edged sword because I wasn’t certified in anything like Pilates or yoga. I was certified with Katy Bowman, who nobody had heard of at that stage.
So, I really had to go through a long period of just trying to get this message out. And it’s so exciting to see your work and what other people are doing in this field now because this word is getting out now, which is great. But I started teaching. And it’s been a really interesting process for me because I am definitely a very hypermobile person, typically much harder to work with than a stiff person. So, my injury healing has been still a slow process.
But what’s cool about it is that you really get to know yourself. And you get to know your body and your movement in a way that you never do if you take it all for granted. So now, I’m at the stage coming out the other end where I’m able to do more athletic-type movements, where my body is more balanced and able and capable, and a bunch of issues I just cleared up along the way. I really don’t have any of the foot conditions. I mean, those all cleared up very quickly.
I had pelvic floor stuff going on that I didn’t even realize was pelvic floor stuff. I just thought it was peeing when you sneeze, which is normal, right?
Steven Sashen:
Most people don’t even know they have pelvic floor. If you say “pelvic floor” to many people, they will think that’s what you discover when you fall on your hip onto the ground.
Petra Fisher:
Not your pelvic floor. Yeah. So, it was eye-opening. I was like, “Oh, my God, not only am I learning how to fix pelvic floor issues, but I have one.” But that’s been cool because that’s really cleared up completely. And that cleared up very quickly as well. And what’s so neat is that even if you haven’t cleared up all of your stuff, as you do this transition, you get all these tools that you feel like you have a path forward. You’re much more empowered and able to fix your things.
So, I think that’s where I’m at in my journey. And we’ve really transitioned to the deep end of the natural movement now. So, I was teaching in Toronto for about five years. And then, we bought a Toyota 4Runner when traveling. So, for the last two years, we’ve been camping and living outdoors and surfing and hiking and doing all the things that my feet could never have done when I was living in heeled shoes as corporate lawyer. That’s been super cool.
Steven Sashen:
And I’m sure that lifestyle… that every day, you miss putting on essentially a suit and tie and rigid shoes and hanging out in an office. I mean, my God, who wouldn’t?
Petra Fisher:
It’s pencil skirt, Steven. Pencil skirts.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, pencil skirt. Yeah. That’s brilliant. Lena and I were effectively retired from 2000 and 2009. And I say to people, “You need to have some time where you’re not working for a living because, then, you really appreciate what it means to not work for a living.” And sometimes it can take like a couple of years. So, you get over that idea that you should be or need to be or whatever it is.
A friend of mine called me. Lena and I were staying with a friend who had a house right on the water on the Big Island, Hawaii. And a friend of mine was talking about, “Hey, if you do this one thing for a couple hours a day, you can make an extra $10,000 a month.” I said, “[Brian 00:13:42], I don’t think you get it. The gap between doing a little every day and doing nothing every day is infinite. And you can’t get me to do that thing.”
Now, I say that. And in 2009, we had this crazy idea to start Xero Shoes. And we’ve never worked harder or more in our life. So, it’s been very satisfying. But I do enjoy the “not having to do anything” part of my life.
Petra Fisher:
Well, the irony is that I actually have been working the entire time on the road. So, my boyfriend has been surfing and living the retired life. But I’m lucky because I really love it. So, I’m still coaching. Because we’ve had very intermittent internet, all of my work now is online program creation. So, I have a membership program where I teach people how to move better.
I’m in the middle of creating a super site. It’s like a signature program. It’s a Build Better Feet, foot-strengthening course that’s a mash-up of footwork and hip work and walking skills. I’m very excited about that.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, A, that’s super exciting. B, obviously, keep me posted so we can share that with people because that’s brilliant. It really is amazing that there are so many programs that are… whether it’s a boot camp program, or fill in the blank for whatever different exercise programs there are. But people don’t get both the simplicity and the value of an actual foot-based program until they experience it.
And I think maybe this is our next thing, if you will, is to have foot-based programs be part of what’s available at gyms and spas and places. And it becomes something that people recognize as valuable and experience the benefits thereof. That’s a whole other thing of what would it take to make this ubiquitous, to make it so that people recognize that this is a thing and know how to find it.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. Well, I think that you are so right earlier when you said that everybody’s journey is unique. And there are certainly people who can transition to barefoot and do it smart, don’t overdo things, but can transition to barefoot without doing any foot exercises at all. And there are other people for whom you’re just not going to get the best results when you do that.
So, I think that some attention to it, it’s a good idea for everybody. And you’re going to optimize your results if you start paying attention to your mobility and stability and training barefoot. It’s incredible, the differences you can make, so… yeah. I mean, this is your foundation, right? It’s crazy not to work on your feet.
Steven Sashen:
I don’t know if you know the research. There’s two women who I met at the International Footwear and Ankle Biomechanics conference. One is in Brazil. Her name is Isabel Sacco. And Isabel, her research was, she literally took a $7 minimalist shoe that’s made in Brazil, put it on a bunch of elderly women, and said, “Just wear these.” And what she was looking at is knee osteoarthritis and found that many of it cleared up, mostly because one of the things that causes knee osteoarthritis is just pounding on the joint.
And you can stop doing that by using your muscles, ligaments, and tendons. That can go away. So, she gave people no training whatsoever and just said, “Do this.” Similarly, Sarah Ridge of BYU, her research was the same idea. Here’s a minimal shoe. Put it on. Just use that for walking, and compare that to people who did a foot-strengthening program, and found that they both developed foot strength, it seemed.
She didn’t think to have a group that was wearing minimalist shoes and doing foot strengthening, but point being that, for both of them, they did a trial by fire, just threw him into the deep end. And basically, everybody was okay. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a better way to do it. Especially if it’s just walking or just standing, to prove that you can just make the transition and your body will figure out most of it is great news. And now, if we can optimize that, so much the better.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah, yeah. I don’t think that’s exactly it. It’s clear that lots of people get tons of benefit just for making the transition. But then, how much more benefit can you get once you get more hip mobility, more big toe mobility? Where can you go with it? So, I think it’s an exciting opportunity for sure.
Steven Sashen:
I love pointing out that-
Petra Fisher:
Yeah, yeah. It’s-
Steven Sashen:
There are some people who say, “Well, here’s the requirement before you can try going barefoot or something minimalist.” And I love pointing out that all the tests that they have to prove that are things that I can’t do. And some of it is… let’s call it coordination. And some of it is… I’ve got a spinal thing. So, I just can’t do some of these movements. But it hasn’t stopped me in any way.
So, I think that’s another… ironically, this is going to sound contrary to what I was saying just a moment ago. On the one hand, we want to give people some program they can progress through. On the other hand, everyone’s trying to come up with a program so they can have their own individual thing that they’re marketing, which can sometimes make it more of a barrier to entry where people don’t know what to do next because they have options that they… and they want to pick the best option.
I don’t know how to… I have no idea how to resolve this. But it’s, again, dealing with humans who, especially… I don’t know how much it’s Western or American. But we’re not well versed at doing something you were saying, which is just listening to our body and figuring it out. And that, I think, is one of the big advantages of starting to go on this path, is that you learn how to become your own coach. And then, all you’re finding is cool tools that help you do that better.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And I think that’s ultimately… the secret to learning to be a more effective mover is to be a more effective observer of your own movement. So, listening to cues that aren’t just pain, but also listening to fatigue or stiffness. Your body’s telling you what’s up. We just are very poor listening to it. So, better shoes are huge because you’ll be able to feel more stuff. And then, just practicing listening. It’s very meta when you get right down to it.
Steven Sashen:
What do you do with people who have challenges that… what I’m thinking of is, I remember way back when, to make a long story short, I asked somebody… oh, I was asking them to pay attention to some sensations in their body. And this person was like, “What are you talking about?” He just had no frame of reference. It’s about lunchtime. I said, “So, are you hungry?” He goes, “Yeah.” I said, “How do you know?” He goes, “What do you mean? I’m hungry.”
I said, “Well, are you getting any signals anywhere telling you that you’re hungry?” And I’m thinking pit of your stomach, empty feeling, hauling, anything that I would attribute to, hey, I’m hungry. And the guy had no frame of reference for what I was saying. And my brain very quickly went from, that’s a problem that he can’t do that, to, that’s just not the way he relates to his body.
And I haven’t landed yet on how to deal with that, whether it’s just like, that’s the way you are, versus, let’s see if we can do some things to tweak that a little bit. What’s your experience with people like that, if you’ve had anything?
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. Yeah, tons. So, the way I think of it is very much… again, contextualize a natural movement, if you had been a naturally moving human, you would have participated in your own movement from day one. Your parents would have carried you as they foraged and hunted. You would have grabbed. You would have been outside. You would have done more things more barefoot, all of those things.
And so, you would be a mover more like a wild animal as you would have a much clearer brain-body connection. And we’re in a state right now where almost all of us have this very fuzzy connection. So, when you’re trying to develop connection, I think the best approach is to throw a bunch of tools at it and see what stick. So, you can-
Steven Sashen:
I’m assuming you don’t mean you’re throwing hammers at people and seeing if they’re magnetic.
Petra Fisher:
Will the saws all hurt you or not?
Steven Sashen:
Here are some Black & Decker stuff, wham. So, give me an example-
Petra Fisher:
Absolutely. So, there are a million ways that you can start to sense and notice what’s happening in your body. So, an obvious one would be to move in front of a mirror to see if the way you’re moving is the way you think you’re moving. You could do a movement lying on the ground and explore the way pressure changes in your body.
You could videotape yourself. You could roll on a squishy ball and start to feel those sensations. So, it’s mindfulness. It’s a process of developing mindfulness through tactile sensations and through visual observation outside.
Steven Sashen:
Can you give me an example of something you would have somebody do in front of a mirror? And the reason that I’m zeroing in on that one is the number of times… I’ve had a situation, for example, where somebody says, “Hey, there’s something wrong with the sole of your shoes because I’m wearing out the heel.” And I say, “Well, you’re clearly reaching out with your foot landing on your heel and pulling back, and you’re causing friction. And that’s what’s making it wear out faster than it would if you had a different gait pattern.”
And they go, “No, no, no. I don’t do that.” And I go, “Oh, okay. Well, send me a video so I can take a look.” And they’ll send a video. A, they’re doing exactly what I predicted. And B, they usually will not only have a hard time recognizing that at first. But I’ve literally had three people, after I showed them that they’re overstriding, heel-striking, pulling back their heel, literally say to me, “Yeah. But I don’t do that.”
And I go, “Dude, it’s a video of you made by you, sent by you. It’s you.” And there are some people… and I’m not suggesting that that’s… I don’t want to put… and I’m not trying to bad-mouth them or be demeaning or whatever. But there are some people who just don’t have that good proprioceptive relationship where what they think their body is doing is very different than what their body is doing. And we all have it to a certain extent. But some people, more or less in different ways.
So, what would be something somebody would do in front of a mirror that would either let them know if they have some proprioceptive skill or point out something that they might want to explore?
Petra Fisher:
Yep, yep. So, the way that I said… I mean, I teach a lot of gait. And so, feet are a huge part of walking. And that’s one of the reasons that feet are so fundamental in my work. But standing is a part of gait. And how you stand is a part of gait. So, I would start with anybody standing in front of a mirror and observing which way their feet are pointing and then check in on which way your feet point. And you could try to change it.
So, one very common adaptation to poor ankle mobility is to have your feet duck out all the time. I’m sure you see it. And a straighter foot normalizes the forces that happen on your ankle. It’s a bunion decreator too to straightening your feet. To practice that, you need to see it. And to see it, you need a mirror and a straight line. And you need to start being like, “Oh, okay. Look, my feet have now ducked out again. Oh, I need to straighten them.”
So, that would be a very obvious mirror-focused exercise. So, what I would do, I start somebody with just straightening their feet. And then, I would take it on to an exercise, like a calf stretch, and have them work with a not-straight foot and a straight foot in a calf stretch so they could experience the difference. And then, take that straight-foot practice into your daily life because you can practice having straight feet when you’re washing the dishes. So, it’s a skill-building and a habit-changing type of approach, I would say, but-
Steven Sashen:
There’s the thing that I… sorry. Go ahead.
Petra Fisher:
I was just going to agree with you that having people look at themselves on video can be very challenging because it takes a fair bit of practice observing movement to be able to see what’s happening in movement, I think. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. It’s true.
Petra Fisher:
I feel you in that.
Steven Sashen:
And you get better with it over time for sure. One of the things that Irene Davis at Harvard does in retraining people when they come in with running injuries… they often do run with their feet pointed out or their knees ducking in or various things like that. And she has a mirror in front of the treadmill and says, “Here’s where you want to be,” and helps… actually, what she does, it’s even more fun. She’ll stick her finger in their butt cheeks and say, “Squeeze right here.”
And they’ll notice that when they do that, that changes what their feet are doing. She’ll say, “All right. Now that you know what makes your feet move in and out, run and keep your feet in line and just watch in the mirror.” And what she does… it’s a classic biofeedback training thing… is like, “Let’s just do this with you watching in the mirror. And then, at a certain point, we’re going to have you run for two minutes while you watch.
And then, we’ll put a curtain over the mirror for 30 seconds. Then, we pull the curtain up, and you see where you are. And you do another two minutes where you can see it.” So, basically, over time, you get less and less visual feedback. So, it’s more and more becoming an internal experience, a little trickier to do if you’re obviously standing in front of a mirror. Another thing you might want to try is take that mirror. If you have a treadmill, stick it in front of a treadmill.
Or I can imagine, put a mirror at the end of your hall and walk towards it and just have a camera so you can see what happens when you’re walking or walking away. Or maybe even the best thing is to tell your partner, whomever you’re living with, to videotape your knee when you’re not paying attention, which could be brought with peril.
Petra Fisher:
Maybe. That could be a very stressful.
Steven Sashen:
I mean, under certain specific circumstances. I’m not saying, “Hey, I caught you in the bathroom.” I just mean, you’re walking down the hall, candid camera. But the point is that we are… when we know we’re being watched, even by ourselves, we sometimes make subtle changes that we don’t know that we’re making.
Petra Fisher:
Sure, sure. I think over time, you start to collect more and more data too. So, you already mentioned shoe wear patterns are a big clue in walking. Injury patterns are a big clue about what’s going on as well. And you’re going to tend to see injuries collect on one side or in a pattern. So, I call myself a movement coach. And I think of myself as coaching movement quality, both in terms of efficiency of making a move and in terms of overall, whole life movement. Are you getting what a human needs?
And you just keep refining that, refining it by checking in. So, what you say, absolutely, it would be awesome to videotape all of that stuff. But you can get so many clues just over time by watching and focusing and checking in with mirrors, with video, with injuries, with wear patterns, with the beach. If you’re walking on sand, you can see what’s happening with your walk.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, yeah. That’s a good one.
Petra Fisher:
That’s super helpful. Yeah. Interestingly, treadmill walking is very different than regular walking. I know you’re more of a runner, but there’s two basic propulsion systems in walking. In one, you can lean forward and let gravity pull you along, and you catch yourself. And the other, you’re essentially lifting yourself on one hip and pushing backwards with the back leg. And it’s a hamstring-driven propulsion system.
And most human walking is a combination of those two systems. And right now, modern humans have about 90% fall and 10% push. And so, my entire life goal is to help you have more backward push, the less falling because the less falling you have, the less injuries you have. That’s the general rule.
Steven Sashen:
There’s nothing I like more than when people agree with me. And so, in the same way that I… when I first reached out to you, I said, “I feel remiss that I just discovered you after these years.” And I didn’t expect that you would know everything that I’ve ever said or written. But I have a whole thing about walking where I talk about exactly that. It’s like, when you walk, you’re supposed to be using your butt and your hamstrings.
And if you look at people… again, if you look at people who spent a lot of time walking in bare feet, typically in third-world countries, they’ve got great butts. And in the West-
Petra Fisher:
Yeah, they do.
Steven Sashen:
… we got a lot of flat asses. And so, I use a number of analogies to get people to experience this. But one is like thinking about skating where you’re pushing back. You don’t need to lift your leg in front of you. What’s moving you is that… the hip and the glute are designed for extension. And we don’t use those typically. And when people start to feel that… at first, of course, you exaggerate it, and you look like Frankenstein walking.
But then, as it smooths out, it feels normal. And you’re not just throwing your leg forward and trying to push yourself over it. And I think if people… well, maybe this is it. If people just learn to walk in a way that’s using their butt and their hamstring correctly, that would take care of so many issues.
Petra Fisher:
Sure, because then, all of a sudden, you’re using the ankle correctly, and you’re using the big toe correctly. And so, the whole mechanical chain is improved. But I think that’s where you really see the role of the exercises because, if you’ve been a chair-sitter and a shoe-wearer your whole life, you probably don’t have the tissues that are going to allow hip extension or dorsiflexion or big toe extension. So, there’s a ton of work you can do to regain that capacity.
And what’s so great is your body is going to just naturally start using it, especially with some conscious practice. But when you have capacity, your body will attempt to use it. So, that’s-
Steven Sashen:
I like the example you just gave. You reminded me of something else. And I made a video about this that I haven’t edited yet. It’s been sitting on my phone for, if I’m honest, about two years. And I’m not saying that I’m lazy. But yeah, that’s why it is.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. You’re busy.
Steven Sashen:
It’s actually what it really is. Well, my natural psychology is I start projects really well. And then, the editing and finishing things is where things get challenging. But what’s interesting to me is that I noticed that when you walk naturally, as your foot is coming off the ground, your toe is flexing this way. You’re dorsiflexing. For people who don’t know what that means, it’s your toes coming towards your knee.
And you would think that when your foot comes off the ground, it would end up doing the opposite and plantar-flexing and flexing down. But it’s actually the other way around. When your toe comes off the ground, it actually pulls back up. There’s a reflex thing that happens that way. And the reason this is interesting to me is that… and I hadn’t thought about it until you said it, about just people not having the tissue, the muscle strength, or doing it or the coordination or the neurological thing that’s allowing it to happen.
Some people, especially when they start wearing like one of our sandals, which is super, super lightweight, super, super thin… so, their brain thinks they have nothing on their foot. And they’ve already adapted to being able to walk barefoot without tripping over their own feet. But when they put on just a little sandal, they’ll sometimes catch a front edge. And it’s because they just don’t have that natural reflex, that natural that’s happening.
And what usually happens when someone calls to complain about this and they think it’s the sandals that are causing a problem, I say, “Well, just give it a week and call me back.” They’re like, “But what do I do?” I’m like, “Yeah. Just give it a week and call me back.” And typically, a week later, they go, “Wow, it’s just not happening as much anymore.” And I go, “Yeah. Give it another week and tell me what happens.”
Petra Fisher:
It’s so interesting.
Steven Sashen:
And it’s very interesting because I remember actually… so, when I built my office, I put a treadmill desk in. And this is very early on, when I started wearing sandals. Once every week, I’d catch a front edge. No big deal. And then, it was like once a month. And I literally can’t remember the last time it happened. And I watch people in airports wearing regular shoes… you know that… where they catch their toe and nearly fall on their face. So, it’s not unique to wearing sandals.
Petra Fisher:
Sure, sure. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
But it is unique to not having feet that function naturally because, pardon me, your ankle, your hip, everything else aren’t as well. I mean, I hear a rumor. Correct me if I’m wrong. The hip bone is connected to the knee bone. The knee bone… I don’t remember how that goes after that.
Petra Fisher:
Totally lies. Nope.
Steven Sashen:
Those are the only two that I-
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. Well, I really do think that… yeah. It’s one of those things where it… humans are amazing. And we can make anything work. And we can make everything work for a really long time. And some people will never have a problem, and other people are going to have a problem. And for them, there’s a ton of stuff you can do to improve the situation, which is another reason that those injuries can be so great because, typically, someone who’s getting injured in their 30s or 40s, it doesn’t get better unless you’re willing to work on it.
But if you are willing to work on it, then you have this opportunity to become stronger and fitter than you were in your 30s when you’re 60. And I think that’s really cool.
Steven Sashen:
What’s, of course, the big challenge is that we, well, lose it early. In the last, especially, 50 years, people have effectively been trained to believe that whenever there is a problem, there is… let’s call it a prosthetic solution. There’s something that you add on. There’s something that you do. There’s a thing you buy. There’s a product that instantly solves it rather than realizing there may be some change that has to occur that may take a very short time. It may take a little bit of time.
But we are so accustomed to people selling us this problem-solution idea that when you suggest they need to do something internal, if you will, they need to change something about themselves, that’s often met with a lot of resistance. And I understand it because, who wouldn’t want a fast solution? Ironically, though, the fast solutions almost never work.
And I say to people, “If you broke your arm and you had it in a cast for eight weeks and you took it out of the cast, you have two choices. You can continue to support it. Or you can actually spend some time doing some physical therapy and getting stronger. And your arm could be better than it was before it started. Which makes the most sense?” And everyone always says, “The latter.” And I go, “Well, then, why are you doing the opposite?”
And overcoming that, what’s called the inertia of marketing or the inertia of marketing propaganda, is, I think, part of our MOVEMENT Movement process and, hopefully, encouraging people to realize that this other way is not only better… well, on the long term, better, but ultimately less expensive, more valuable in other ways as well.
And I don’t have an answer yet for how… let alone if it’s possible to create that mind shift where people think about what we’re talking about and realize, Oh, I just need to learn to do something a little different. Then, all this stuff will take care of itself. And I don’t need to spend a bunch of time researching to find out what orthotic I need or what shoe with seven inches of cushioning I need or whether the cushioning now has a flux capacitor or a gerbil on a hamster wheel.
And why would you put a gerbil on a hamster wheel, is what I’m wondering now or whatever else it is, which brings me-
Petra Fisher:
Where are the gerbil wheels?
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. And I think you have to have a… there’s a different gerbil wheel and a hamster wheel. There has to be.
Petra Fisher:
No.
Steven Sashen:
I’m sure not. When people come to you, what do they typically think they’re coming for? And what do they get that’s not what they expected? In other words-
Petra Fisher:
People almost always come to… sorry. Go ahead.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I was going to say, it’s like… back to my psychologist friend going on Oprah, I said to him once, “Do you tell people what they need to hear or what they want to hear?” And he says, “Oh, I tell them what they want to hear. And when they walk in the door, they get surprised by finding out what they need to hear.” And I go, “That’s pulling the rug out from underneath people.” And he goes, “That’s the only way to do it. You can’t tell them what they need to hear because they don’t understand it.”
Petra Fisher:
You have to find bridges. You have to find stuff that people understand and are interested in exploring themselves. You just can’t be like, “You should get rid of all your shoes and sit on the floor. And that would be better for you.” Nobody wants to hear that. But people will come if they’re injured. People come to me because they’re injured. And often I’ll get a shoulder injury or a hip injury. And I’ll be like, “Well, you should probably work on your feet.” And that’s the challenging conversation.
But they should also work on their shoulders and hips. Your whole body needs to move, just like we don’t give our feet enough of a chance to move naturally. We should all be squatting. And we should all be climbing and hanging. And I love that you have a hanging bar in your house. And I’m not at all surprised. And everybody needs that movement. Our bodies require it. But what people tend to do is go to… I don’t want to knock on anyone’s sports thing because they’re all awesome. But they’re not what our bodies require.
So, you give them little bits of stuff to explore that feel good and that they like. And then, they’re either interested or they’re not, ultimately. But I do think that shoe thing is so powerful because, as soon as you start experiencing a more barefoot way, I don’t see how you ever go back.
Steven Sashen:
There’s a CEO of a footwear brand who’s a friend of mine… and I won’t mention him or the brand because it would be too humiliating… who said… and they make a product that has some elements of natural movement, but not all of them. And he says, “Our customers get addicted to our stuff. Once they get used to this product in six to nine months, they never want to go back.” And I go, “Yeah. We have the same experience in six seconds because we don’t have to break things in.”
But it’s the only reason that we get out of bed in the morning, is from the number of people who’ve had that experience of like, oh, my God, this is such a big deal. And it’s such a big deal in ways that people don’t… I don’t want to put this… it’s such a big deal that people think, when I talk about it, that I’m just making it up and some hyperbolic marketing, crazy person. And I have to remind them.
I go, “You just got to know that, prior to 1970, this is what everybody did. Prior to the Industrial Revolution, this is what everybody did. And we’re not doing something new. We’re doing something old. The new things are the intervention for which there’s no evidence.” And they go, “Oh, yeah? to the point.” But again, that’s because we’re so used to somewhat like new and improved, better than ever. Here’s this new discovery. And the new discovery is-
Petra Fisher:
… thicker, stronger.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. Cleaner, lighter, whatever that is.
Petra Fisher:
It’s really, really fascinating. And I think also, one of the barriers is that people tend… personally if you suggest that their footwear choice might be problematic. And I don’t know if that’s universal, but it’s been so interesting. As you know, we were long-term traveling until the pandemic hit. And my mother has very kindly sheltered us and looked after us. So, we flew from Mexico. And we’re now in her basement. But she knows I’m putting together this foot course.
And so, she keeps hearing me talk about how terrible things like heels on your shoes are and traditional hiking boots. And she keeps getting angry at me because she thinks I’m criticizing her shoe wardrobe, which I suppose… it is true that she’s wearing shoes that I don’t think are good for her, but it’s not about her. It’s just the shoes.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I’m going to tell you about that. So, first of all, I’m so glad you said you’re living in your mother’s basement because, this whole time, I’ve been thinking, What I see behind you just seems so unlike you. It’s especially the thing with the plates in it. That’s just not what human beings in our age range do anymore. It’s like, okay. So, I love that. So, here’s the thing that I discovered.
I’ve been having this Sunday-morning brunch with friends and friends of friends and whoever decides to come for 25 years. And we call it brunch church because we do it religiously on Sundays. And so, one of my friends used to bring people just to argue with me about things like, did we land on the moon? Is the mind an emergent function of the brain? Was 9/11 an inside job? I mean, it’s like all these things.
And my favorite was somebody who came with a master’s thesis to present to me. And then, after he did this presentation, he said, “All right. Tell me if you can pick apart my argument.” So, I started picking apart his argument. And then, he started yelling at me and started saying, “You’re so argumentative.” I’m like, “You asked me to do that.” But what was fascinating is that he was acting like I was trying to kill him, his children, and his children’s children. It was not only taking it personally. It was life and death.
And I have this theory that beliefs that we adopt, certain kinds of beliefs that we adopt, we somehow store them in our brain in a similar way or very tightly related to our sense of self itself. And so, when we point out that some belief that someone has or some decision that they made may not be accurate, it goes right to your sense of self, which is partly why there’s a lot of cognitive psychology research that shows if someone has a belief and you show them evidence that the belief is factually inaccurate, instead of going, “Oh,” they hold on to it even more tightly.
And it makes no sense that we would do that rationally. But it makes total sense that we would do that because, when humans learn to make decisions, it wasn’t valuable to have to redo that every time you were in a similar situation. It’s evolutionarily advantageous to just come up with one. If it works, stick to it like white on rice, no matter what happens, because that’s just going to be the fastest way to process.
Now, if you think about it and extrapolate that a little bit, it means that most of us evolved from idiots because there’s someone who made a decision for the wrong reason or came to the wrong conclusion but lived. And so, we are the spot of morons.
Petra Fisher:
Successful idiots. Successful idiots.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are the offspring of surviving idiots. And then, if you extrapolate from there, you just have to watch the movie Idiocracy and see where that’s going, which is not good. But you’re right. I mean, this is a magic question. And maybe I’m asking this not quite rhetorically, but kind of rhetorically. And maybe people listening or watching have an answer.
How do you present this information that doesn’t come into conflict with this phenomenon of how our brains work? And I don’t know. I have some ideas. I have some things I’m playing with. But that’s the $64,000 question. And that reference dates me.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. Well, it’s like, how do you get the broccoli into the desert? That’s really-
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hold on. Hold on. Wait. Hold on. Lena and I have been buying these things at Costco. They’re these tiny, little chocolate muffins that say they’re made with broccoli and zucchini and all this stuff. And so, this is what we do for dessert, just like… if you want some vegetables for dessert. And there’s probably a molecule of broccoli in these things, but it makes us feel so healthy.
Petra Fisher:
Totally. And then, all joking aside, it’s about finding those common interests. And so, maybe, maybe you should totally wear whatever shoes you want to wear. But then, just once, spend some time barefoot and… whatever they are for somebody individually. We have a big joke. If you do any kind of anthropological reading or if you read Sapiens, which is such a great book, you’ll find that 90% of the names that human tribes have ever chosen for themselves, they always seem to be something like, we are the one people.
Or we are the first people. Or we are the best people. And you will see, it is so.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. It’s just a miracle.
Petra Fisher:
It’s just remarkable. Yeah. It’s amazing. Watch for it. You’ll see it for sure. It’s that same problem there. I mean, we get very hung up on our-
Steven Sashen:
But I’ve got to pause. I mean, I find that so funny because I know that we are… I mean, it’s just obvious.
Petra Fisher:
Clearly, we’re doing the right thing, right?
Steven Sashen:
I mean, those people, that’s the silly one-
Petra Fisher:
I think you have to be so willing to question yourself. Thank goodness we have the answer, Steven.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, my God, I don’t know what I would do if we didn’t.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
But I like your idea. It’s like, rather than trying to go headfirst into this, it’s like finding a way to introduce people that isn’t threatening, that just gives them a little bit of a taste, a little something that will then open up the door a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. I mean, I can tell you the way that I’ve been doing it now. And this is not an example of that. I’ve been pointing people back to experiences that contradict their beliefs in a very… I’m trying to do it in a non-confrontational way.
So, when people ask me what I do for a living, I go, “Well, let me ask you a weird question. Do your feet feel better at the end of the day than they did at the beginning of the day?” And I’ve never met anyone who says yes. And then, I go, “That’s probably because of your shoes, because look at your shoes, which are pointy.” And I go, “And tell me, is that the shape of your foot?” And they go, “No.”
And so, those two things open up a conversation that… and I don’t then say, “Take off your shoes. Go barefoot. Buy my shoes,” whatever. But that’s a way of making an end run around it. That has been really effective. And I know that when people become barefoot, natural movement, mentalist converts, our natural inclination is to try to just go head on and convert the unwashed masses. Yeah.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. That’s really obnoxious.
Steven Sashen:
And something I’m looking to do is to basically create a curriculum for how people who get hip to what we’re doing can talk about what we’re doing without pissing off their friends and family. And it’s a tough one.
Petra Fisher:
One of the real challenges is the overenthusiasm because, like you said, I think once you discover how much healing and how much better feeling is available for you once you start doing this, it starts to be astounding that anyone could do anything different. And then, you really do turn into that horrible person that you don’t want to have dinner next to. So, it’s about tampering your enthusiasm. And I think what you’re doing and in creating your Xero community and being out there and normalizing this is part of it too.
So, it shouldn’t be as exciting to discover it as much as like, oh, now I’m doing that too because all these people are doing it. So, making it a little bit more normal and making it a little bit less of a revelation is really, really helpful because, otherwise, yeah, the overenthusiasm does not help at all. Another thing that works well for me in my life, although I haven’t tried it so much with people as clients, is that whenever my partner and I have a disagreement about what we should do, like should we do X this way or that way, we almost invariably just say, “Well, we’re going to do an experiment.
And we’re going to choose either way. It doesn’t matter which one. And then, we’re going to decide if that was the right way or not.” And I find that experimental mindset is incredibly helpful because it takes away any sense that he’s right or I’m right. And we just get to explore something what’s kind of no-stakes experiment. So, I wonder whether that might not be a way into it too. It would be like, just try it. Try wearing a minimal shoe for today, maybe. I don’t know.
Steven Sashen:
I like that idea. I love that. I love let’s just give it a whirl and see what happens. I used to do a thing… I don’t get to get out very much. I don’t interact with human beings as much as I used to when I didn’t have a job. But I used to do things like this. I’d walk into a bookstore. And I would say, “What books should I get?” And walk up to some employee. And they go, “Well, what do you like?” I’m like, “Not my question. What book should I get?”
And I did this in Powell’s bookstore in Portland. And the first person I said it to said, “I don’t know. Go to that section and ask that person.” So, I went up to that section. And I said, “So, what book should I get?” And they said, “What do you like?” I’m like, “Again, I don’t know. I mean, the question is, what book should I get?” And this person went, “Huh, come with me.” And they took me to a section. It was actually interesting you mentioned anthropology. It’s the anthropology section.
And he said, “I think one of these three books would be super cool for you.” And they were right. And I had never read anything about anthropology at that time. And so, I used to do that. I’d go into restaurants and say… we do this often… “What should I get?” “Well, what do you like?” “No, no, no. Just bring me something.” And it was a really, really fun way to interact with the world of just, let’s see. I mean, who knows?
It’s a variation of just saying yes to… you don’t say yes to everything because you’re not a pushover. But you’re just looking for opportunities to not make the normal decision that you would typically make. And the point you made them, just try it. Oh, boy, this is the Holy Grail for me as a business person with Xero Shoes, is people say to me, “What are your goals?” And I say, “Get more shoes on more people’s feet so they can have the experience.”
And we’re trying to find ways of doing that while still being able to remain in business because we can’t just send out a million pairs of shoes for free. Or maybe we can, and I just haven’t figured out how.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. It’s just a fascinating set of challenges. And I think, as humans, we become more and more patterned over time and less and less open to new ideas. And so, I think a guiding principle of our lives is we’re trying to stay open. But I love your idea of just walking in and be like, “Tell me what to do,” and just letting yourself be open. That’s super awesome beginner’s mind. And that’s such a great way to push yourself outside of those patterns.
Steven Sashen:
I was in a situation where… let’s just say I was homeless for a little while, is the easiest way of putting it. That’s an exaggeration. And it’s a little hyperbolic, but it’s a fun way to say it. But suffice it to say, for a couple of days, I didn’t have any money. I was in a place that I didn’t live, didn’t know anyone. And especially when I was hungry, I would walk up to strangers and ask for help. I would say, “I’m hungry. Can you feed me?”
And some people would hand me money. Some people would just give me a dirty look. Some people would do whatever. And finally, one person said, “What are you asking me for? There’s a restaurant right over there. That’s where they make the food.” I said, “Oh, my God. Oh, my God, that was brilliant.” So, I walk up to the restaurant. It was a fast food place. Now, I had been a vegetarian for 20 years up until that point. I still mostly am. And I don’t eat meat. I occasionally have some eggs and occasionally have some sushi.
So, anyway, I walk up to this restaurant. I said, “I’m hungry. Will you feed me?” And the guy behind the counter just gives me a totally dirty look. And I realized he hadn’t said yes or no. So, I kept looking back at him, and I just waited. And then, he kept looking at me, and I kept looking at him. And then, he just shrugs and shakes his head and says, “Wait right here. No. Better yet, go sit over there.” Then, I went, “Okay.” So, I went and sat over there.
And five minutes later, he comes out with this bacon double cheeseburger and a large order of fries and a large Coke. And people said, “Well, did it ruin your digestion because you’ve been a vegetarian?” And I said, “No. What ruined it is I couldn’t eat without crying because I was so grateful.” I mean, I didn’t like it or not like it. But it was just such a… I mean, I’m tearing up just thinking about it. It’s super, super fun to put yourself in those kind of situations.
Petra Fisher:
One of the coolest things that has happened to us on our travels has been living in a surf camp-type environment. And I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a surf camp. But I’m sure they’re all different. There’s organized ones. There’s also places where there’s a wave. And there’s some camping near the wave. And a bunch of people go camping there. And a bunch of surfers will live there for three or four months at a time. And people will come in on weekends.
And there’s this really interesting camp community environment that happens. And because surfers are broke, you get a lot of random strangers coming across your campsite and asking for help. And it’s, “Do you have surf wax? Do you have mustard? Do you have a knife?” And it’s awesome. I think that we all, as North Americans, need to start getting better at asking for help because people love to help. And that’s what creates community.
It is such an awesome, awesome thing to be vulnerable enough to ask for help. And to be able to experience being a… I think it is awesome. And that was one of my most… it just struck me. We all have a little bit too much. And so, we don’t need to ask for help anymore. But we all do need help still. And I think we need to get better at that. It has nothing to do with movement, although I’m happy to help you move better.
Steven Sashen:
Well, that’s another interesting question. So, I wonder how we can try to combine these things. Or if there’s a way… I’m obviously just thinking out loud. There has to be a way… so, people are coming to you because they’re injured. They’ve gotten somehow the idea that you can be helpful. But there’s this much, much larger group of people who either aren’t injured, aren’t looking for your kind of help, or whatever it is. And I’m thinking about this for myself too, obviously.
How can we create opportunities for people to get help before they know to ask and/or to offer what it is and not do it in a way that has the, we are the one people who? The whole conversation, now that is what’s interesting to me and a real challenge as an internet-based marketer. It’s like, how do we have these conversations with as many people as we can, in the easiest way that we can without feeling like automatons and that we’re just spewing out things that are not related?
And there’s a couple emails that we send out where I have my personal phone number in it. And I go, “Look, here’s my info. Just give me a call if you need me.” And I only get about three calls a week. But they all have the exact, same pattern. It’s like, “Hello. This is Steven.” “Oh, my God.” And it’s really entertaining. I mean, I just like to… I think it’s important.
No matter how big the company gets, I think it’s important to have that kind of availability because that’s how this whole thing evolved. And I’m still learning every day from people. So, anyway, that’s all a tangent for natural movement. So, we’ve only got a couple minutes left.
Petra Fisher:
Sorry. Go ahead.
Steven Sashen:
No, no. You go ahead.
Petra Fisher:
Yeah. I was just going to say that, as a person with an online business, one of the things that we all do is give away some free content and some free information. But one of my pieces is a foot exercise course. I call it a Fix Your Feet boot camp. And it’s five foot exercises and foot advice. And I have to say, I really like giving that away because it’s a really solid giveaway. People can do that and do nothing else and really have a lot of success with it.
And I get emails all the time from people who have said that it’s really changed how their feet are. It’s one of the nice things about… it helps me increase my reach. It helps other people heal. If they need more, there’s more to be had. And maybe they don’t need more. And that’s awesome too. So, I love hearing from people, like you said. And it’s just so great to hear that people are doing these things and making changes and-
Steven Sashen:
Well, I interrupted to say we all have a few minutes left. But you just gave me the perfect segue to get the hell out of here. But first things first, I think you need to change the name. I think you have to call it an unboot camp.
Petra Fisher:
That’s such a good idea. Okay. I’m going to do that. Fix Your Feet unboot camp. All right.
Steven Sashen:
Unboot camp.
Petra Fisher:
I have my work cut out for me now, unboot camp-
Steven Sashen:
Well, to that point, Petra, do me a favor. Tell human beings, or whomever else might be engaging with this, who may have some different designation, how they can find out more about that program and about what you’re up to and how they can interact with what you’re doing and get that help that they may not have known to ask for.
Petra Fisher:
For sure. Well, the best place is probably my website. So, that’s PetraFisherMovement.com. And it’s Fisher, F-I-S-H-E-R. I don’t have a C. And I’m also on Instagram as petrafishermovement or Facebook as Petra Fisher Movement. So, I’m very consistent. So, in any of those places, you can find me. You can find the unboot camp. And you can find tons of information about natural movement and how to get some more in your life.
Steven Sashen:
Awesome. Well, people don’t know that we had a brief phone chat before we did this last week. And we’re talking about random things and had way too much fun. And not surprisingly, that’s my experience here as well. So, A, thank you. B, I’ll say now in public, whatever we can do to be helpful, please let me know. And we will, no doubt, offline, figure out ways of doing that because, again, as part of The MOVEMENT Movement, it’s very exciting for me to see other people doing other things.
Some of my footwear competitors, I say to them, “Look, I’m thrilled that you’re here because the more of us that are doing this, the more awareness it brings to the whole idea. And that’s the most important thing. Oh, yes, I want to sell more shoes than you. But nonetheless, the most important part is that we’re all creating this level of awareness and giving people experience.” And for the people like you and for Katy and for Emily Splichal and… oh, my gosh, I’m thinking about Stacey Krauss.
Sorry. I’m going to leave that… I feel like I’m doing an Academy Awards speech, and I’m forgetting the name of my parents. There are so many people who are doing such great work, many of whom who have been on the podcast and many more who are scheduled to, that I can’t wait to see where this goes. So, I’m seeing it all accelerating really quickly. Are you seeing something similar?
Petra Fisher:
Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. It’s awesome.
Petra Fisher:
I think so. I feel like… especially feet have gotten some real momentum over the last six months. So, yeah, I’m really excited about it. There’s The Foot Collective. Northwest Foot & Ankle in Portland are doing great work. There’s Gait Happens on Instagram. More people are talking about feet. And I just think it’s super, super exciting. So, yeah, let’s hope that this time, though-
Steven Sashen:
Here’s one that we started hearing that’s super funny, not ha-ha funny per se, really. But so many people, during COVID, are spending so much time indoors that they’re spending so much time without their shoes on. We’ve had a number of people call us and say, “I went and put on my regular shoes. And I didn’t fit in them anymore.” And we’re like, “Sweet.” So, this is like, “That’s normal.” And you didn’t know it till now. So, that’s our answer. We just need to have everyone stop wearing shoes for a month or two and then try to put them back on.
And I think if we just let… that’s going to be our new big brother-esque biodome, whatever, biosphere experiment, is just have no-shoes November. That’ll be horrible because then people would have to find out in December. And that’ll be a problem. So, no shoes-
Petra Fisher:
Okay. Not November.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, not November. That would interfere with-
Petra Fisher:
We’ll have to think about that one.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. We got to find a version of that. Anyway, Petra, total, total pleasure. Thank you so, so much. And let me do the outro for everybody. For those of you who joined us, thank you for being here, whether you’re listening or watching or someone sent you this via carrier pigeon or however you’re interacting with content. If you don’t know how to do that, just go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com.
You can find us on Instagram, on Facebook, on YouTube, and all those other places, on iTunes and Google Play and everywhere that you get podcasts. And wherever you can, leave a review and send us something. And give us a thumbs-up and a like and a share and hit bell on YouTube. And you know how to do all that. I don’t need to tell you how. But we want you to be a part of The MOVEMENT Movement. If you want to be part of the tribe, please do subscribe.
If you have any questions or feedback or anybody you want to be on the show, just drop me an email, [email protected]. And just like the phones, where I answer them, I will answer your email. And most importantly, go out. Have fun. Be safe during this time. And live life feet first.
Speaker 1:
You’ve been listening to The MOVEMENT Movement podcast with host, Steven Sashen. Remember to join the tribe and subscribe at jointhemovementmovement.com.