Can You Exercise “Too Much”? Discover a Better Way…

 

– The MOVEMENT Movement with Steven Sashen Episode 137 with Jennifer Hicks

 

Jennifer Hicks is an internationally recognized Nia movement instructor, trainer and Personal Trainer. When you find yourself getting a sweat on at one of her online Nia classes, you too will experience the profound connection between body self-awareness and recovery. Chances are, you’ll also enjoy yourself. Who knew healing could feel like this? Jenn does and soon, you will too. Classes are delivered in person and online.

 

Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Jennifer Hicks about the dangers of exercising too much.

 

Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:

– Why restricting portion sizes and food groups is not a healthy way to lose weight.

– How exercising can become an addiction when you’re doing it solely to lose weight.

– How difficult it is to live with an eating disorder, even if you don’t recognize you have one.

– Why Nia fitness asks you to pay attention to your body and its sensations.

– How it’s important that we don’t judge movement or the way our bodies move.

 

Connect with Jennifer:

Guest Contact Info
Twitter
@_jennhicks

Instagram
@jenniferhicks

Facebook
facebook.com/niadancefitnesswithjennhicks

 

Links Mentioned:
jennhicks.ca

 

Connect with Steven:

Website

Xeroshoes.com

Jointhemovementmovement.com

Twitter
@XeroShoes

Instagram
@xeroshoes

Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes

Steven Sashen:

If you don’t start as a fit kid or young adult even, it’s really too late to pick things up, don’t you think? Yeah. Well, we’re going to take a look at that. But also another thing, because if you know you need to exercise more is better and as things that you might get addicted to go, I mean, there are worse things than exercise, right? Maybe not the way you think. So we’re going to look at both of those things on today’s episode of the MOVEMENT Movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body. Starting feet first, because you know those things are your foundation and where we break down the propaganda and the mythology. And sometimes the flat out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or play or do yoga or CrossFit or, whatever it is you like to do. Pickleball, fastest growing sport in America.

 

And to do that enjoyably and effectively and efficiently. And did I mention enjoyably? It’s a trick question. I know I did because I always say that one first. But the point is if you’re not having fun, do something different till you are. Because if you’re not enjoying it, you’re not going to keep it up. And we call this the MOVEMENT Movement because we are creating a movement, more about that in a second about natural movement. Letting your body do what it’s made to do. And that first part, the movement is just spreading the word. So here’s how you can do that. Go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. No cost to join, no obligation, no secret handshake. It’s just where you can find all the previous episodes. All the ways you can find our podcast.

 

All the other places you can engage with us on social media, for example. And you know what to do. Like and share and thumbs up and hit the bell icon on YouTube and subscribe so you can hear about the upcoming episodes. And most importantly, I mean the gist is if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. And last but not least, if you don’t know, I’m Steven Sashen from xeroshoes.com. Host of this very entertaining thing we’ve been doing for a long time. But now let’s jump into the fun. Jennifer Hicks. Do me a favor. Tell people who the hell you are and why in God’s name you’re here.

Jennifer Hicks:

Sure, of course. So I am in Toronto, Canada. I am a Nia fitness instructor and trainer.

Steven Sashen:

Well, I’m going to pause right there. So spell Nia. Since some people will hear that as K-N-E-E and wonder why you say Nia. Like, you’re Canadians. Which is a weird thing. So I’ll let you dive into that a little. Well, you don’t have to do it now, but let’s just say, we’ll come back to explaining that we’re not talking about your knees when you say Nia.

Jennifer Hicks:

No, no. We’re talking about a barefoot movement practice. Yeah. And I am also a personal trainer and I’m also a speech language pathologist. So I have a lot of variety in terms of how I spend my time.

Steven Sashen:

And so I did a little teaser at the beginning about two different things. One is just starting fitness at whatever age you may happen to be. And where it does or doesn’t work. And the other part about exercise and more is better and getting really attached to that, et cetera. Where do you want to start? Because I know this is what we talked about in the 30 seconds prior to hitting record, but what would you like to start with, out of those two?

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, growing up I was… Let’s just say my body image was not very healthy. Surprisingly, no one back then taught or spoke of anything related to body image. And coupled with the fact that I was not at all athletically inclined, I was terrified when it came to sports situations. I failed swimming lessons. I got demoted.

Steven Sashen:

Hold on. You would think that if you failed swimming lessons, that would mean you drowned.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, I mean, I could tell you a funny story about that, but you don’t have…

Steven Sashen:

Oh, no. Come on. Do you honestly think you could set me up with, “I could tell you a funny story.” And then not tell me?

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, I didn’t ever get the hang of breathing underwater and taking a breath when necessary and blowing out through the nose and so on. And so, my idea of swimming laps in the pool was to use one arm to plug my nose while the other did the crawl. And that didn’t quite work out.

Steven Sashen:

Were you swimming in circles?

Jennifer Hicks:

It was kind of diagonal, circular on an arc kind of thing.

Steven Sashen:

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I remember when I was trying to learn how to swim, I was having a very hard time with as well. I don’t remember why. But then I felt like I was kind of getting it. And the next day when I went to the pool, my mom was there and I was like really excited to show her that I’d figured it out. And I’d jump into the pool. And they had over the weekend added water and raised the level of the pool by about six inches.

 

And so instead of hitting the ground or hitting the bottom pool like I thought. I kept going and inhaled a whole lung full of water. And that terrified me about getting back in the pool for like a year.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

And then I’m curious what happened for you, if anything? What happened for me is I went to a day camp right down the street from where I grew up, where they had a teacher and I literally don’t know what he did, but he instilled such confidence and calmness in us that I picked it up like nothing when I met him. And had a good time. So did you ever get over swimming in a circle with one arm?

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, I eventually learned. I taught myself how to breathe properly. I even went so far as to do a triathlon and conquered my fear of swimming in open water.

Steven Sashen:

With people on top of you and… Yeah.

Jennifer Hicks:

Oh, yeah. Arms and legs fluttering all around.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, yeah. I can think of very few things less enjoyable than being in the water and having someone just swimming on top of me. Well, that could be fun actually, but that’s a whole different story. All right. So you started out, you were not athletically inclined, you were swimming in circles and please continue.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, I really got into a fitness starting out when I was in grad school as a way to manage stress. I would go to the gym, but never really enjoy it. And then when I graduated and the stress had lessened a little, so I started doing more enjoyable things like running outside instead of on a treadmill.

 

And fast forward a few years, my father-in-law got very ill and I unknowingly at the time, the stress and anxiety related to that, I unknowingly developed what’s called Orthorexia. Which is hyper vigilance around nutrition. And subconsciously I think I was so focused on fitness and nutrition as a way to protect myself in this situation. There was absolutely no control over it. This was my way of controlling things. That very quickly led into anorexia.

Steven Sashen:

Can I pause for a sec? So can you describe… I mean, I get the general idea of what you described for Orthorexia, but I’m really curious if you could tell me, and I know we’re diving into something personal, so please tell me to shut the hell up if that’s relevant. But can you tell me what that actually looked like? I mean, if people were watching a videotape of you, how would they know that this is what you were doing?

Jennifer Hicks:

Sure. So without getting into any specifics so that I don’t trigger any of the listeners, essentially whatever Runner’s World magazine said was the way to eat, was the way I ate. But then I took that to an extreme in that whatever Woman’s Day said, I did that as well.

 

And this is back in the days of magazines, pre-internet, pre-social media. So it involved restricting portion sizes as well as entire food groups. And yeah, just taking away any sense of balance and eventually that led to sort of a fear of certain foods for the fact of… At the end of the day, what was I afraid of? Gaining weight, being big, being the person I was as a kid. Which was the chubby kid. So it had a real snowball effect because in there was also the exercise and that became addictive. And just like any other experience might become addictive, it’s all I thought about was exercising and eating.

 

I left the house in the middle of the night to go out and work out. I would lie to my husband about where I was going. I was having an affair with exercise. And I would leave work. My behavior became completely uncharacteristic. I would just leave and exercise when I was meant to be working at a hospital.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, geez. But again, I have to admit, I’m dying to know what lies did you sell your husband? What did you say you were doing when you were going out in the middle of the night?

Jennifer Hicks:

Oh well, at that time again, back in the day there was, in our neighborhood a 24 hour coffee shop. So, I said, I was going to read at the coffee shop, and I think he knew.

Steven Sashen:

Came back a little sweaty. It’s like, “What kind of coffee did you have? Well, I actually poured it all over myself and had to take a shower.” The idea of someone… It would be easier to say, “Yes, I’m having an affair,” than to say, “Yes. I went out to run five miles.” Is of course horrible, but also hysterical.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, and yeah, it was a desperation. Like, how can I get my next “fix”, air quotes. How can I satisfy… It was really, I guess the endorphins I was after. Right?

Steven Sashen:

Oh, interesting.

Jennifer Hicks:

And it was self-medicating. Some people self-medicate with alcohol. I was self-medicating with exercise.

Steven Sashen:

So, I mean, you said something about control. I mean, was there something that you thought, like a specific thing that you thought by going out and doing this, or keeping that routine, that it would either keep at bay some thoughts, some feeling something? I mean, I’m just really fascinated. And again, I’m getting kind of granular because I find it interesting. If you don’t want to go there. I totally get it.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. No. And it’s a great question. I think there was a little bit of diet culture in there. There was fatphobia. There was self-esteem. There was yeah, being with my thoughts and emotions, but I also had this excess amount of energy and this sort of complex that I was better than anyone else. And just full disclosure, in the years since then I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. But the many medical professionals that I saw thought, “Oh, you can’t have bipolar disorder. You’re not sleeping with random people. You’re not stealing from stores.”

 

But mine played out. My main hypomania played out in that I just had so much energy. I was just shooting on all cylinders. Right? And I had to do something with that energy. And along with that came a whole behavioral thing around not trusting people. I remember when my doctor said that I had anorexia and I accused her of being jealous of me.

Steven Sashen:

Wait, did you actually say that out loud to her?

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, my God. What’d she say? How’d she respond?

Jennifer Hicks:

Very compassionate woman. I can’t remember exactly what she said. But yeah, she put me in my place for sure. In a very dignified way.

Steven Sashen:

I mean, the manic part of bipolar is very tricky of course, because A, you feel like you’re invincible and have all this energy and have all this creativity and have… And sometimes the other side of it is, people respond accordingly. I had a roommate who was bipolar and he had been medicating, legit, had lithium, et cetera. And there was times where he’d forgotten to take his lithium and we’d be having lunch, me and all our friends and the guy was hysterical when he was in a manic phase. And we knew how bad it was going to be afterwards.

 

And literally we’d have conversations going, “All right. Do we give him five more minutes because this is really fun. Or do we just get his lithium in him right now?” And I mean, we knew the right answer and that’s what we did. But it was literally one of those things where it’s a tricky thing, because people don’t get it.

Jennifer Hicks:

It’s so alluring as the person having, in my case hypomanic episode, because I was invincible. No one was better than me. It took me a long time to get diagnosed because I was like, “Why would I want someone to take this away? This is great.” And I had a sort of slow and steady. I didn’t have a huge peak and then a crash. And then sometimes I think it was mixed as well. Sometimes I was depressed, but go, go, go, go, go.

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Which is actually another very interesting thing where when you’re in go, go, go mode, you can’t tell someone you’re depressed because the presentation doesn’t look like that. And yet, they can be very tightly entwined.

Jennifer Hicks:

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

So, all right. So thank you for indulging me in that. I’m just totally fascinated with how minds work, especially around these extreme situations. Because they’re very rarely… It’s very rare that someone attends to them with curiosity is the simplest thing I can say. Just to take a mild tangent. My mom has dementia and Alzheimer’s and in the phase where she was still able to have seemingly a conversation, I interviewed her to ask her what her experience was. Because it was so fascinating.

 

She said to me at one point, she’s in an assisted living facility and they had a soprano singer come in and do show tunes. And after the end of this hour, she says, “I haven’t felt this good in days.” And I said, “Oh, so you can remember how you felt over the last few days and compare it to how you felt now?”

 

And she goes, “Oh, no. I just say things like that. Because it makes people feel better.” And I thought that was fascinating. So when I interviewed her about her experience, I couldn’t tell if it was an accurate reporting or just what her brain was doing to try to make sense of this completely irrational kind of behavior and experience. Where she didn’t recognize herself in the mirror and couldn’t understand why that lady only stayed in the bathroom. And she would talk to that lady and didn’t understand how photos worked. So it was really intriguing to me. And I’d never heard anyone dive into that.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. I actually also do work with people with dementia as well. So I’m familiar with what you’re talking about.

Steven Sashen:

Well then I’ve got to give you this one. So my sister and I, when we would go to visit, we’d kind of check to see how she was. So we sit down in front of her and my sister says, “Hey, do you know who I am?” And my mom says, “Nope.” I said, “Do you know who I am?” She goes, “I don’t think so.” My sister asks again, “Do you know who I am?” She goes, “You look kind of familiar. I feel like I should, but no.” I said, “Do you know who I am?” She goes, “Are you Mark?” I said, “No.”

 

My sister says, “Do you have any children?” She goes, “Oh, yeah.” We go, “Oh, how many?” She goes, “Three or four.” Just two. My sister says, “Do you know their names?” And she says, “Ellen and Steven.” Like, oh. So I said, “Yeah. So do you know who I am?” She goes, “No.” My sister asked one more time, “Do you know who I am?” And then my mom looks around conspiratorially to make sure no one can hear. And she leans in and looks at us and says, “Do you know who you are?”

Jennifer Hicks:

She’s giving you a piece of your own medicine.

Steven Sashen:

It was brilliant. It was brilliant. So anyway, pardon the tangent. So back to you for the win. So, all right. So the Orthorexia led to anorexia. I can imagine that transition from the obsessive part to just… It really doesn’t seem like it’s a very large step.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, and in fact this happened in the days when Orthorexia was not even mentioned as a risk factor.

Steven Sashen:

Oh, interesting.

Jennifer Hicks:

For anorexia. So yeah, only in hindsight have I been able to say, “Oh, that’s what was happening.” And yeah, it was terrifying. As I mentioned, there was a fear of certain foods. I had a very rigid list of foods I could eat and could not eat. And yeah.

Steven Sashen:

Was there also ritual around eating them? I’m remembering someone I went to college with.

Jennifer Hicks:

A lot of eating in private when I did eat. And also a lot of… I can remember shopping and buying a lot of food and cooking and making things for… It was just me and my husband. And making things for him that he didn’t want, but I made it. I guess I really wanted it, but that’s how I was acting.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Jennifer Hicks:

So the cupboards were bursting at the seams. I wasn’t eating any of it.

Steven Sashen:

And so obviously the question of how you came through that is pressing and even more interesting. Is there anything we need to address before we get in there?

Jennifer Hicks:

It always seems like my life is just the opposite of what might be considered normal. And in some ways I really embrace that, but the way I overcame all of that is quite frankly extremely unorthodox. And would you like to get into that now?

Steven Sashen:

Oh, yes. Considering a number of comical things, I’m thinking of what unorthodox could sound like.

Jennifer Hicks:

So it got to the point where I was put on a medical leave from my work as a speech language pathologist. And that was beyond humiliating for me. What I did instead of… There was a recommendation from the medical side that I attend a day treatment program for people with eating disorders. But I knew that would be the end of me because it’s a very clinical, restrictive, formulaic kind of program that they were asking me to be part of. So someone checking how much food I was eating, measuring things. And so I chose…

Steven Sashen:

I mean ironically, it sounds like more of the same.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, yeah. And just to me, it always seemed like a very punitive approach. I mean, I guess in that program, they also have psychotherapy and other services like that. Which I was already doing on my own. But yeah. It didn’t feel like the right approach for me. So I instead sold my car and bought a ticket to India.

Steven Sashen:

As one does.

Jennifer Hicks:

As one does. For someone in the middle of a major health and psychiatric crisis is probably not the best idea.

Steven Sashen:

Seems like a fine place to go. Yeah.

Jennifer Hicks:

And so my husband, God love him, he insisted on going with me. He was not going to let me go by myself. So he did, he came along. And we stayed for a month. And at the end, and I was depressed the whole time there. But really appreciating the culture and all that India has to offer. And so he, at the end of our month said, okay, we’re getting ready to go. And I said, “I don’t think I’m ready to go home yet.”

 

So, I stayed, he left. Which was a risky move on his part. And while I was there, I kind of engaged in some self-harm, let’s just put it that way. Where I really should have been really sick based on what I was doing. But someone, something was looking out for me. So yeah, when I returned from India, which by the way, I was not doing yoga classes, I was not going to temples. I was just there. You talked about being curious about people and people’s minds. That’s what I was there for.

 

I was almost studying how people lived in India. You don’t have 40 different kinds of coffee you can order. Right? It’s just simpler. It’s like sugar or no sugar. That’s it.

Steven Sashen:

Well, and people who are living in what we would think of as shacks, where that’s their home, that they’re okay. And I mean, you can’t… I’ve spent a bunch of time in India. You can’t apply your American thinking to what’s happening there because it’s just not the same worldview. And I mean, I absolutely adore it for all of those paradoxes among other things. I mean, we were staying in an area where there weren’t a lot of foreigners. I was there for a friend’s wedding. And so he was in a neighborhood where you wouldn’t go, unless you knew people who live there.

 

And I remember fewer people who were begging, but I got hit up by like these five kids who were asking me for money. And I said to them, “Just so you know, I’m not going to give you any money. But if you want to go do something fun, I’m your man.” And after two days they went, “Okay, let’s go.” And I just hung out with those kids and had a blast.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. Yeah. And I just appreciated too, how people were happy with what they had. Which in some cases was very little.

Steven Sashen:

And would give you all of it.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. It’s just a very special place. I’ve been now three times since that time. But yeah, so after returning from India, I was like, now what? Because I had no job and I was supposed to be rehabbing. But the opportunity to take a Nia fitness training came along. And so my, I’ll call it lovingly, my disordered brain thought, “This is great. I can become a fitness professional and hang on to my eating disorder. This is fantastic.”

 

And so, I took this training and that is not what the universe had in store for me. In fact, the opposite happened. It was a major part of my healing process. Because Nia is a fitness practice that first and foremost asks you to pay attention to your body, to your sensation and to listen and respond to your body so that you can make choices about moving in ways that feel good. So what I had been doing previously was pounding the pavement and any kind of hardcore weight lifting and you name it, where the harder, the better. The more it hurt, the more effective it was. So this was a revolutionary way of thinking for me. So while it started out as my quest to hang onto this eating disorder, it was eventually responsible for eliminating it.

Steven Sashen:

So needless to say that one sentence has a whole lot of frames in it, if we were looking at a film. Can we break that down? I mean, what was it like when you started to pay attention to these sensations? It’s interesting you say that, because I know a treatment that’s been effective for some people who have anorexia is compression clothing. Because it makes you feel things in your body and it gives you a sense of control as well that some people respond well to.

 

And having done… I mean spending a lot of time in my past doing meditation practices that involve paying attention to sensations, and I have a very odd relationship with those now for… That’s a whole other story. But so I’m dying to know when you had that invitation, what was that like at first and how did that then evolve for you?

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. Well sensation is a complicated animal, right? We have this gift of being able to sense and feel in our body. And then we, if we’ve experienced trauma can shut down and just numb ourselves. And so that’s what I think I was doing. And there was a lot of unresolved grief around, my dad died by suicide when I was two and a half. So some trauma living in my body. And not to mention the fact that no one had ever told me that I deserved to feel good in my body or that if I paid attention to how my neck was feeling, I might prevent headaches.

 

That kind of, how to live in a body lesson I might have missed. I don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

No, they don’t teach that one around here.

Jennifer Hicks:

Okay.

Steven Sashen:

Just FYI. It’s not like you skipped the class. That class was not part of the curriculum.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. So it was both terrifying and illuminating to be given this invitation to listen to my body and to feel. You’ve heard, I feel fat. Fat is not a feeling, but as a kid I would feel fat. And I didn’t like that feeling in my body. My body was more… It wasn’t something that people paid attention to or wanted on their softball team or whatever. Growing up it was my brain that allowed me to get good grades. And so I kind of always lived… There’s someone who calls it a brain taxi.

 

My body was my brain taxi. So yeah. So learning and being introduced to this idea was interesting. And it was really scary in that I started teaching and as I was practicing, “Okay, I’m listening to my body.” That started to help me pay attention to satiety signals. And know when I was hungry and know when enough was enough and all that complicated business. And as I was teaching, I was practicing this learning to sense and feel. And the irony, again, everything is opposite with me. I started teaching fitness and I gained weight.

 

I needed to gain… I was a scrawny little thing. And as I was feeling and just letting myself become more human and experience pleasure and not deprive myself, I was gaining weight. And so that in itself was another psychological barrier. Because again, that’s what I was holding on to the eating disorder for. And so it was a long and complicated process that I still continue to learn about. And I still continue. It is a practice for me to sense in my body and not numb out.

Steven Sashen:

I think there’s two parts to that. One is the continual invitation to pay attention or the opportunity to pay attention. And the other I imagine is that many of those thoughts have not gone away, but the relationship you have with them has probably changed. Or to them.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. Yeah. And I have to tell you, the more I learn about capitalism and racism and all the oppressions, I’m like, “These are not my thoughts. This doesn’t belong to me.” I’m not using what I was given, which is my own intuition, my own sense of what’s right and what’s wrong for me. I’m still unlearning all that. And so I’ve been teaching now 16 years and this is still an ongoing practice for me to reframe my thoughts.

Steven Sashen:

I’m going to share a funny one with you. So when my wife Lena and I first met, I’ll do the very abbreviated version of this. She avoided me like, I was going to say the plague, but let’s say like COVID now. She avoided me like COVID for, I think maybe three and a half years. She was living with a friend of mine. So she couldn’t avoid me entirely, but she basically just brushed me off as much as humanly possible for at least three years. And at one point when she deemed me acceptable as a friend, at one point I asked her, I think I asked her if she found me even remotely attractive. And she said, “Oh no.” And I said, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” So I get it. I’m mad about this woman who really has no interest in me.

 

And I basically got okay with that. In fact, I was dating someone who knew Lena and the three of us had lunch together for some reason. I can’t remember why. And my then girlfriend said, “Are you in love with her?” I said, “Well, yeah. But she wants nothing to do with me. So it’s one of those unrequited things.” And my then girlfriend said, “Oh, okay.” She was cool with that. But here’s the kicker. I mean, we’ve now been married for coming up on 19 years. We’ve been a couple for three and a half years before that. We knew each other for…

 

I mean, we’ve been together a long time. To this day, there are times where I think, “I don’t think she really wants to be here.” And I have to remind myself that that thought is flat out absurd. But more importantly is that it is not supported by the evidence in front of me. And in fact, it’s almost inevitable that when I have that thought, if I’m lying in bed, if I wake up before she does, and that thought comes up, it seems like a magic trick. Where that’s the moment she’ll lean over and start cuddling with me. And I go, “Okay, you’re a complete idiot.” I’m thinking to myself. Because the evidence and reality are arguing with what you believe that you know has been factually inaccurate for years. But it still comes up.

 

So, I don’t really care. I find it fascinating that it comes up. I don’t pay attention to it so much. Or I mean I notice it, but I know that it’s silly. It’s no different than trying to convince myself if I looked in the mirror that I’m a six foot tall black woman. It’s like, that isn’t what I see.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah, exactly. The power of our thoughts. They dig deep trenches, right?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Literally. I mean, literal, neurological trenches that it just kind of… We go down like a water slide.

Jennifer Hicks:

Right. And that’s really why it’s so important to expose myself to different ways of thinking, different schools of thought, different approaches to living. Right?

Steven Sashen:

Well, which brings us back to Nia, which we never bothered spelling.

Steven Sashen:

Here we go. I only know this because I have a friend from decades ago who is an early Nia teacher. And yeah. So let’s dive into that. I’d love to hear more about the evolution of you teaching that and what happened for you, but I’d also like you to tell people what Nia is. And if you can give anyone something that we can do in real time to have like the barest of an experience so they can get some flavor, that would be dreamy.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Nia originally stood for non-impact aerobics. So it was the first barefoot, non-impact aerobics, basically. It’s coming up, I think next year is the 40th anniversary. So it’s a 40 year old practice. Now, by the way, we don’t refer to it as non-impact aerobics in that it’s just so much more complex than that. Just say Nia, just like Pilates or yoga. And it was developed by two people, Debbie Rosas and Carlos Rosas who were really big in the fitness industry in the 1980s.

 

And they were doing the whole aerobics thing and then noticed that they were not having fun and that they, their teachers and their students were all getting injured. And so they decided, there’s got to be a better way to move and to have a sustainable movement practice.

Steven Sashen:

I have a funny thing to that. So our chief product officer Dennis Driscoll was one of the guys who co-founded Avia footwear. And what made Avia was they made the first aerobic shoe. And they brought it around to aerobics teachers. And it was a padded, motion control, arch supporting, quote, “normal shoe.” And they didn’t know any better, but they were the first ones to think, “Let’s target this particular market and make something for this market.” Which then they got bought by Reebok. But to hear that people were getting injured in a quote, “normal shoe made for this” is not surprising to he or any of us.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. It now makes sense knowing what we know.

Steven Sashen:

Right.

Jennifer Hicks:

For sure. So, yeah. So they stepped away from that traditional aerobics and kind of started researching what are other movement practices that already exist, that are respectful of the design of the body. So that don’t ask the body to put pounds and pounds of pressure on the joints. So essentially Nia is three different movement arts. So we’ve got the… Excuse me. The dance arts. We’ve got the healing arts, and the martial arts. I don’t know why I’m hesitating on that. Are you going to be editing this?

Steven Sashen:

No, it’s fine as is it is. It is interesting to me, again, we’re diving into the interesting thing of minds. But it is interesting to me when there’s a word or phrase that we may have said thousands of times, and it just suddenly is like, it’s not showing up.

 

I have a weirder one. We’re living in an area. We got a dog, our first dog ever. And people ask, “Where do you take him?” And we have a… See, I can’t even do it right now. It’s a street hockey rink. And I’ve only said this a 1000 times. But every time I have to pause and go, “What the fuck is that thing called?”

Jennifer Hicks:

And you know I’m a speech pathologist, right? I work with people who have…

Steven Sashen:

Oh, my God. Right.

Jennifer Hicks:

Word finding problems. So when it happens to me, I start to freak out a little bit. But yeah. So dance arts, martial arts and healing arts. And so there are a number of movement forms within those. So jazz dance, modern dance, yoga, Tai Chi, Taekwondo, Aikido and so on.

 

And those are blended together into what a class looks like, is a barefoot movement experience. So it’s low impact and the movements are movements that respect the design of the body. So we’re not jumping up and down, but we’re reaching up high, we’re getting down low. We’re using the floor, we’re using space around us. Traveling. So it can be… The beautiful thing about it is that it can be very energetic, which some days my body loves and it can be very gentle, which other days my body really appreciates.

 

And it’s taught me the value of not judging movement, because we all have different ways and preferences and body situations that desire and need different movement practices. And in this case, there are nine different movement forms that we use. So the variety of movement is endless, which stimulates my creativity. It just gets me so excited.

Steven Sashen:

So can you give us an example so people can get a flavor for this?

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. So since your specialty is feet. We have…

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. I never thought I would say that in my life. But yes, I guess that’s true.

Jennifer Hicks:

We have eight different foot techniques. So Nia is called the Nia technique. So a lot of people think it’s free form or just flowing and do your own thing. It’s not ecstatic dance like that. There is a technique and we want to use our body in the way it was designed to be used. And to use all of it. So we have foot techniques that allow us to move from the bottom up to be aware of our feet.

 

We do all kinds of things to strengthen the ankles and the feet. We do a duck walk, which is where the toes lift and lower. We do a squish walk where the heels lift and lower and squish down. We rock around the clock. So we’re doing kind of a circular motion with our feet and so on.

Steven Sashen:

Can you pick one of those and give us an actual instruction so people can try something?

Jennifer Hicks:

Sure, absolutely. So do you want me to step away because I can.

Steven Sashen:

Whatever you need to do.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

And of course, since some people are only listening to this, you’ll have to describe what I’m seeing, what you are doing.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. Let me move my screen here a little bit. So a duck walk. So feet are about hip distance apart. We call it open stance. And the toes are just lifting and lowering up towards the shins. And I’m spring loading my joints, meaning my knees and my hips. I have imaginary springs in them. So I’m letting the energy move from the feet up. And then I can swing my arms, picturing my head, moving up like a helium balloon towards the sky.

Steven Sashen:

This is really actually beautiful to watch. So for people who are… First of all, I encourage you to go to our website so you can watch this video. But to describe that again, you were doing just… I don’t even… Spring is just a great example. Bending your knees and hips slightly. And just kind of getting this feeling of just kind of lightly bouncing almost. Being kind of supported by the air, kind of coming down. And then as your knee, as you’re coming up, as you’re straightening your legs, taking one foot at a time and lifting the toes towards the knee with one foot, then you come back down flat footed.

 

Next time you come up, lift the other foot. And then it does have this rhythm where I can see, and you started doing it. You do want to kind of get your arms involved and your back involved and your neck involved. And it is, it’s a movement that starts from the ground up and then takes you over.

Jennifer Hicks:

It’s your spine is sort of flowing forward and back. Your knees and hips are really soft. You can picture like when you see in the water, something bobbing in the water. It’s kind of that idea too. That you’re springing up and down. And it is just… Yeah, it feels so good.

Steven Sashen:

And that’s a great analogy, because we’ve all done that where we’ve been in a swimming pool and just slightly kind of bounced just a little bit and having that feeling in the air without the water, that’s a really great… Boy, it’s a beautiful image, but it’s also more importantly, the feeling that goes along with that is really sweet.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. And what’s beautiful is it’s asking me to be aware of my entire body. So what are my feet doing? What are my knees doing? My hips, my spine is kind of, it got that bobbing motion. And then my head. My head is reaching up to the sky. So I’ve got this bungee cord effect where my feet are grounding me and my head is elevating towards the sky. And I’ll tell you… Can I tell you? This is so exciting. When I started teaching, I’ll say two to three years in, I went to go for my annual physical. Height, weight… Well, they don’t weigh me anymore. They took my height. I had grown two centimeters.

Steven Sashen:

Wow.

Jennifer Hicks:

Which is… I don’t know that what that is in inches.

Steven Sashen:

Slightly less than an inch. Barely less than an inch.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. Okay. But I had grown. I had grown. Most of us are shrinking with gravity. This attention to moving up and out had… I’m resisting gravity.

Steven Sashen:

Do you have any idea what actually physically changed? And before you answer, I’ll tell you I had a weird experience. I won’t get into all the details. Where I was growing and shrinking every 10 minutes. I walked up to my refrigerator and I could see over it. It’s a small refrigerator, but I could see over it, which I couldn’t ever do before. And I thought that was weird. And then a few minutes later I looked at the refrigerator and I couldn’t see the top.

 

And I realized only years later when I had a spinal x-ray that I had a scoliotic curve. Not a big one, but enough that basically the muscles around my spine were releasing and contracting, making me taller and shorter. I have no idea why. But that’s the what of, what happened. Do you have any idea what might have happened for you?

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, one of the movement forms that I didn’t mention is called the Alexander technique. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it. But essentially it’s about creating more space and volume in the body. And I have gone to Alexander technique sessions and there’s some mysterious handling of the head and I don’t know exactly what they’re doing. But what I believe with Nia and this is just me, is that the intention to take up more space, to really resist gravity and to let almost like picture being a puppet and having more space just in my neck. Not letting my…

 

I love my mother, but she’s got the kyphotic shoulders and the head leaning forward. It’s attention. I think it’s attention. That it’s possible that when I went to have my height taken, I was… And now I’m… I was hunched over and now I’m a little more aware. I don’t know.

Steven Sashen:

I’m wondering the psychological component to that… And what you were making me think of is someone who, a friend of mine, someone who I’d known at that point for about 20 years called me and said, “We need to have lunch.” And in the conversation he was going to describe what was a major change in his life. But before he could tell me about that, I said, “I don’t know what’s going on for you, but I’m kind of freaking out.”

 

He said, “Why?” I said, “Well, in the 20 years I’ve known you, A, this is the first time you’ve ever looked happy. You’re normally sort of a misanthropic guy. But more, I thought you were 5’8”, maybe 5’9”.” He said, “I’m six feet tall.” I said, “I see that now. But in my brain, you were like 5’8”, 5’9” because you were just kind of depressive. So whatever’s going on about this happiness thing has made it so that you look your height.” Which, the whole thing was fascinating to me.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, there could be a component to that as well.

Steven Sashen:

I wonder.

Jennifer Hicks:

I don’t know. Either way. I have an identical twin sister and I’m taller than her now. She doesn’t practice Nia.

Steven Sashen:

That’s a hoot. How is she with that? Is she…

Jennifer Hicks:

Yes.

Steven Sashen:

That’s a whole interesting thing about twins and whether they’re competitive or not. Some of my oldest friends are twins who, one of them became a lawyer and the other just refused for 15 years till he went, “Oh, I got to be a lawyer.” Because it really was the right thing for him to do, but he just was competitive and couldn’t do something else. So it was pretty entertaining.

 

So, I got to tell you, I’m still, even though I’ve just been, and I would say sitting, but that’s not quite the right term because I’m sitting on a thing that isn’t a chair. Just kind of moves around. It’s not a ball. It’s a chair called QOR360, Q-O-R 360. So I’m always kind of moving a little, but nonetheless, I find myself feeling that sense of that kind of bobbing in the water thing just from the little motion I was doing while sitting, watching you do it. And I’m really having a good time with that.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. It’s very liberating I’d say. All that sensation that was asleep, all that information that was asleep for me, just letting my body move in these ways. And that’s the other thing too is Nia is, although it’s a technique, everybody looks, moves, feels different and we never want to censor anyone or have anyone look identical to anyone else. So when you see a Nia class, people take that movement into their body. It looks different from one to the next.

Steven Sashen:

That’s really interesting. Are there times though, where either you as a practitioner or you as a teacher, see some, I’ll say a movement pattern or something that looks like it’s restricted or something that looks like it’s kind of habitual or something where there’s just the sense that something could change. Something could open up. Something could be more free, more fun, whatever. And either as a practitioner or as a teacher, what do you do then?

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, it’s not corrective. It’s not a corrective movement practice. We actually are encouraging people. We say we want people to be their own personal… Excuse me. Conscious personal trainer. So that they’re turning on their sensory hat, their intuition. And they’re saying, “What’s right for me? And I’ll do was right for me.”

 

Now the issue, in some cases we don’t know necessarily that we could be doing something different, which is why I have furthered my education as personal trainer. And in those cases, yes, I love to show people, “Here’s how you can have more freedom. Here’s how you can stop your neck pain. Move your eyes.” We do that in Nia. We do eye movement. And people sometimes restrict their own… They get in their own way I think. As we do sometimes.

 

But just moving our eyes independent of our head or moving our head and then our eyes. There’s so much power in what that can do. Not only for muscle tension, but neuroplasticity and neuro development.

Steven Sashen:

Well, like we said before, we get into these grooves and don’t know it. Because I mean the one thing human beings are great at is habituating. Even to things that are not beneficial. But after a while we get used to it and then we stop paying attention to it. And then it’s quote, “normal.” And to do something where you can bring awareness to that thing that suddenly becomes some like, semi clear that it may not be the only way or it may not be the way that’s the most enjoyable or whatever it might be. However we become aware of it. I mean that’s a very profound moment.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it does take people… I work with a lot of people who have lived many years in their body and haven’t turned on sensation and are not aware. And sometimes it’s extremely difficult even for them to hear the words that I’m saying. You can do it this way. And the joke is that I’ll have a substitute teacher come in and after I’ll come back and the students will say, “She said this.” And I’ll be like, “I’ve been saying this for 10 years.” But they just heard it differently.

Steven Sashen:

Yes. It’s one of those things where you hear the story of some parent who is… I don’t know. Let’s say massively overweight in some situation. And then they one day have that realization, “Oh, my God. If I don’t do something, I won’t see my kid graduate from high school.” It’s like, why’d you have that thought that day and not the day before or the day after?

Jennifer Hicks:

It’s fascinating. Yeah.

Steven Sashen:

These things show up when they show up. But what was the thing you just said about, someone else said it, someone else came in. Oh, I had another question I was going to ask you just about that experience of something new and what goes along with that. But I lost it. So that means you’re going to have to fill in for here.

Jennifer Hicks:

That’s all right. Well, one other thing I really love about Nia is the creativity. Is that we can blend, we have all these movement forms. We have 52 different moves that we use in different combinations. So really the possibilities are endless. And as you just said about us being good at getting into habits, we’re constantly talking about, how can we break a habit? What’s a new to me move? How can I do it differently so that I stimulate, so that I give my whole body, my whole nervous system, a new experience?

Steven Sashen:

And how has that translated or takin… How do I want to say this? How has that… God, I know I can do this. How has what you’ve done while doing Nia translated into things that you’re doing when you’re out of that, when you’re just in the rest of your daily whatever?

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, my practice as a speech language pathologist is… I want to choose my words carefully here. More creative than it has been. So I’m able to see things a bit more holistically and be a bit more present and focused and customize treatment for individuals. But I’m constantly in movement throughout life, I’m constantly thinking about how I can do something different. How can I get out the car differently? How can I push my shopping cart differently? How can I cross my… Well, that’s a bad example.

Steven Sashen:

No, no, cross your legs is a good one. I mean, cross your legs. I do cross my arms. So when I realized one day how I crossed my arms, this was years ago, I thought, “Can I do it the other way?” And now I can’t remember which way I started with. I actually, I’ve been talking about this on the last few podcast episodes. A couple months ago, I realized that I always put my pants on left leg first. So I spent a couple months really paying attention to right leg first.

 

I didn’t get it perfectly every time. Because the habit of left leg first was very strong. Now I’m realizing that I have to get back into remembering that I can do left leg first.

Jennifer Hicks:

Right. Which leg do you lead with going up the stairs?

Steven Sashen:

Oh, crap. I have no idea. Wait, hold on. I’m going to have to pay attention to that one.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s just about, that’s a way to stay present and aware and to give… I truly believe that our bodies love new information. Otherwise, we just get stuck in a rut and nothing changes. And bad movement… Not bad, poor movement habits become worse. Yeah. I just love giving myself those little challenges.

Steven Sashen:

It’s a fun one because it is of course tricky to become aware of something to which we’ve become unaware. But when you start to look for these things, I found that you bump into more and more. There’s a funny one that’s been going on lately I think because of what people are watching on television. And this is my favorite one. If you watch British television shows and how they use a knife and fork compared to how they use a knife and fork in America. It’s very different thing.

 

So, the fork is pointed down, left hand, and stays in the left hand. It never becomes a scoop. It never becomes a spoon. And if they’re going to scoop something, they scoop it onto the back of the fork. Which seems a little out of whack. But I go to… Not that I go to a lot of restaurants, but now I started watching more American TV shows. And I see people who are not British people with an American accent, but actual Americans, they’re starting to do that same thing on these shows.

 

And I see it out in public as well. People are changing the way they’re using a knife in fork influenced by British television it seems.

Jennifer Hicks:

That, it’s interesting. And what I would say to that is it’s great to do things differently. And does it feel better when you do it that way?

Steven Sashen:

No. For me, the whole thing of like… So when the fork is pointing down, it’s at a about a 45 degree angle, the way it hits the plate and to kind of scoop things onto the back of that seems completely wrong to me. And so I mess around with trying to do it that way. And I have a couple friends who are British and I watch them do it. It’s like, “How do you do that?” They go, “What do you mean, how do you do that? This is how you use a fork?” It’s like, “No, it’s not how you use a fork.”

 

And so, I find that all very, very interesting. Similarly, back to your comment about me and feet. When I got into this business, I did not think I would discover that there are about 100 different ways to tie your shoes. I assumed everyone did it the way I did it. Because why wouldn’t you? And I’ve seen literally at least 30 different ways. And I won’t do any of them. They’re completely wrong. In fact I have my shoes set up so I tie them once and I pretty much never need to do it again. But nonetheless, that was shocking to me. Oh, I know what I was going to say before, about paying attention to sensations.

 

Have you ever had one of these where in fact, and I’m very curious for you given your history. I remember the first time I was teaching a workshop and I was asking people to pay attention to sensations. And someone said, “I just don’t understand what you mean.” And it was about noon or getting close to one o’clock or something.

 

I said, “Well, it’s time for, about a lunch break. Are you hungry?” And he said, “Yeah.” I said, “How do you know?” Expecting he was going to describe some sensations around his abdomen, hollowness or emptiness or something. And he goes, “What do you mean?” I said, “Well, I mean, are you feeling anything that lets you know you’re hungry?” He goes, “No. I’m just hungry.” And I’m going, “But how do you know?” He goes, “Because I’m hungry.” And he didn’t have some connection to some sensations. Now I’m not making that wrong. I just went, “Oh, there maybe are people who can tell if they’re hungry or not through a completely different mechanism.”

 

And maybe he needs to… Or I don’t know, needs to. Maybe he’d find some benefit for discovering there were some sensations that he was not noticing, maybe not. But I mean that one, especially given your history, I’m curious if you had any experience with that one.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, when I came into Nia and even as recently as last year, I remember speaking to one of the senior trainers and saying, “I still struggle a little with sensation. I still, whether it’s my busy brain or whether it’s this numbness due to trauma or I don’t know. I don’t know.” But interestingly, I was co-facilitating a workshop last week with a colleague of mine. And we said, “Show of hands, who has difficulty with this idea of being in relationship with sensation.” And nine out of nine people put their hands up.

 

So, I think part of it could be, we just don’t learn about it. We don’t talk about it. And sometimes we get shut down when we talk about it. As a kid, I remember having pains in my joints. “Oh, that’s nothing. You don’t have pain.” Or, “Yeah. That’s not a real headache. Just get on with life.” This idea that you should ignore your body was a message I got a lot as a kid, right?

Steven Sashen:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m going to do one that’s this sort of counter argument to this in a way. Which is that in some circles, there’s a way of dealing with sensations that gets a little mythologized. And what I mean is, I was in a thing. I can’t give the name of this. It was a thing for a bunch of CEOs to get together. And first of all, it was all dudes, which I thought was really ridiculous. And all middle aged, white dudes. I think maybe one or two black guys. And there was a woman who was a therapist who was leading this event and she said, “Let’s go around and just talk about… Just one word, what are you feeling?” And I happened to be the second to last person to go around in the circle.

 

And by the time she got to me, I was going, “I don’t know how to answer this question.” She goes, “What do you mean?” I said, “Well, because by the time I pay attention to it, it’s turning into something else. So I don’t have a label for anything.” She goes, “Well, are you feeling sensations in your body?” I said, “Well, yeah. Anywhere you ask me to put my attention, I will feel sensations. What do you think those mean? Because I’m not linking them to something.” And she thought I was just being difficult. But I was really just being as precise as I could.

 

I can literally, I can find a sensation anywhere, but now you’re attaching meaning to it that I don’t necessarily attach. And so that’s a whole other play or way of playing with this whole idea. Because for her, it was like, oh, that sensation, if you’re feeling that, then that definitely means this. And the fact that that meant something means something else. And it’s like, yeah, I just can’t go there.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. It takes away the personal experience of it. The ownership of it. If it is given a label by someone else.

Steven Sashen:

Well, even if it was given a label by me. If I’m paying attention and I feel something, if I call it a particular name, it kind of solidifies and ossifies and makes it a noun instead of a verb. It makes it a thing rather than something that really if I pay attention is actually changing or at the very least doesn’t necessarily mean what I think. If I have something, let’s call it a headache, for lack of a better term. It doesn’t mean that I’m going to have this forever.

 

It doesn’t mean that I’m going to have it a minute from now. It means right now I’ve got this thing going on and I can either choose to do nothing. And then maybe notice a little while later that it’s gone or I can choose to pop a Tylenol. I mean, I don’t have a thing either way.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. And I see what you’re getting at with the whole idea of attachment. And then there is a possibility that I might misread a signal that might bother me. Right? And then do something that’s harmful or unnecessary in the end.

Steven Sashen:

As we wrap this up, a weird question just occurred to me. Is there anything that you find yourself food wise, enjoying now that was off limits before?

Jennifer Hicks:

Bread.

Steven Sashen:

I love you.

Jennifer Hicks:

I mean it is so ridiculous how… I mean, I’m so anti diet culture now, because I just see through it. But just how we demonize foods and how that just… It’s ridiculous. It’s just so harmful. And so yeah, I stay away from any, “You should eat this.” Or, “You shouldn’t eat that.” That is not part of my life.

Steven Sashen:

There’s a science researcher, mostly about food named Denise Minger have you bumped into her?

Jennifer Hicks:

No.

Steven Sashen:

She wrote a book called Death by Food Pyramid that’s very interesting. She’s also written a couple of very long, 10,000 word blog posts about what she discovered after that book. But I’ll cut to the chase. She has in the not too recent past said that she’s no longer planning on writing about food and health. And knowing what a meticulous researcher she is. I can only conclude that she has found that there’s no direct correlation between what you eat and something like longevity.

 

And I may be wrong, but just the way she talks about it seems highly… It’s a really good bet that that’s what she found. Which is why I was hanging out with a bunch of healers of various kinds. Therapists, physical therapists, psychotherapists, et cetera. They were all talking about the different diets they were on. And I said, after a break in the conversation I said, “Yeah, I’m on the, I don’t know when I’m going to get hit by a bus diet.”

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. I’m on the, I don’t want to pay people to make me feel bad about myself diet.

Steven Sashen:

I like that one too. Yeah, that’s a good one too. This weekend we had a friend, it was her birthday. And so my wife and I and she and her boyfriend got together and we went to a restaurant that is famous for their desserts. So we had a couple of appetizers to not feel completely hedonistic. And then we just ordered all the desserts we wanted and just ate them all. And it couldn’t have been more enjoyable. And that was the most important part. We just had a blast.

Jennifer Hicks:

That’s it. Enjoyment, pleasure. That’s what life is all about.

Steven Sashen:

And the next day, none of us wanted to eat for like 24 hours. Because we had just eaten God knows how many calories. Did not care. But for all of us, our body was like, “All right. That was good. Now we’re going to take a little bit of a break and then do it again.” So it was fascinating.

Jennifer Hicks:

Yeah. Again, it’s about listening. Right? Listening, tuning in, for sure.

Steven Sashen:

Anything we left out?

Jennifer Hicks:

I don’t think so. Other than I would love to have people join me for a Nia class to learn more.

Steven Sashen:

This is where I was going next. So how can people find you?

Jennifer Hicks:

You can find me at my website, JennHicks.ca

Steven Sashen:

Beautiful. CA people. She’s Canadian. So Jenn, this was a total, total pleasure. And I really do hope people take you up on that offer and actually say a little more when they go there… You said, join you for a Nia class. Say more about what they’ll be able to do when they go to your website.

Jennifer Hicks:

Well, fortunately I kind of forgot. How did I forget the last two years of COVID that have changed my Nia practice dramatically. So I teach virtually. Right here. And that means my classes are accessible to anyone, anywhere. I’m in the Eastern Time Zone, but also have recordings of classes if that time zone isn’t working for you.

Steven Sashen:

I love the number of ways and people… The way things have changed for people, thanks to the magic of COVID. Not obviously the people who suffered dramatically in various ways, but it has opened up possibilities that we just didn’t think would ever happen. And so I applaud you for taking advantage of that or discovering that.

 

So, for everybody else, once again, thank you very much Jenn. And for everyone else, like I said, I do hope you take advantage of that opportunity to go play and feel and sense and move and have a good time and discover what Nia is all about. And again, a reminder. Go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. Previous episodes, all the places you can interact with us, including the email.

 

If you have a request, a suggestion, someone you think should be on the show, because they’d offer something valuable or someone who you think should be on the show because they think they’d tell me I have a case of cranial, rectal reorientation syndrome, whatever it is I’m open. So you can drop me an email. Just send it to move, [email protected]

 

And of course, if you’re looking for amazing footwear that lets you move and have a natural experience, well that’s what Xero shoes are all about. I’m not going to do a bigger plug than that. You know how to find us at xeroshoes.com. And until then, go out, have fun and live life feet first.

 

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