Sam Mouzer is 38-year-old mental health support worker, and now Naked and Afraid extreme survivalist.
Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Sam Mouzer about being barefoot in extreme conditions on Naked and Afraid.
Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:
– How important protein consumption is and what goes into producing and retrieving it.
– Why people are becoming more disconnected from the wild and the procurement of protein.
– How humans can consume most insects.
– How going barefoot allows you to use your feet as another form of sensory analysis.
– How your brain will make micro adjustments to your feet in reaction to barefoot walking.
Connect with Sam:
Guest Contact Info
Facebook
facebook.com/sam.mouzer
Connect with Steven:
Website
Twitter
@XeroShoes
Instagram
@xeroshoes
Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes
Episode Transcript
Steven Sashen:
What would you do if you were in the middle of nowhere and needed to have some sort of protection for your little piggies and toesies and feetsies? Well, that’s not quite what we’re going to talk about, but we’re also going to talk about that on today’s episode of the MOVEMENT Movement podcast. This is the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting with your feet, because those things are your foundation. And we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the straight out lies you’ve been told about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body again. But more importantly, what it takes to run or walk or hike or play, or do yoga or CrossFit, or be out in the middle of nowhere, and to do that enjoyably and efficiently and effectively. And we call it the MOVEMENT Movement because we’re creating a movement that involves you. It’s really easy. I’ll tell you how in a sec.
About natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do. I’m Steven Sashen from xeroshoes.com. Your host and the part that involves you is really easy. Just go, when you get a chance, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com. There’s nothing you need to do to join. There’s no fee, there’s no secret handshake, there’s no song you need to sing. That’s just where you can find all the previous episodes of the podcast and you can find all the ways you can engage with us on social media. Find us on YouTube and Instagram, et cetera, et cetera. And again, if you want to help, just give us a thumbs up or a like or subscribe. Hit the bell icon on YouTube. You know what the drill is, simple. If you want to be part of the tribe, just subscribe. So Sam, tell people who you are, why they might know you and what you’re doing here.
Sam Mouzer:
So my name’s Sam Mouzer. I was recently a participant of the Naked and Afraid 21 Day Survival Challenge. And in my day-to-day life, I’m a Mental Health Support Worker. And right now I’m here to talk about what I did to prepare and train my feet and prepare them for the onslaught that was the Naked and Afraid Challenge.
Steven Sashen:
Well, for people who haven’t seen the show at all, tell them about what Naked and Afraid is. It’s one of those titles that kind of says it all, but not quite. So hit people with what that’s all about.
Sam Mouzer:
So Naked and Afraid is essentially two individuals. They’re dropped up in a totally unfamiliar environment, absolutely naked, totally stripped bare, with only the most essential of survival tools. And these two strangers have to endure this 21 day ordeal. They can only eat what they can capture or kill or forage. They can only drink the water that they find. And at the end of the 21 days, they have to still have the strength remaining to extract from the survival location and get to rescue.
Steven Sashen:
So let’s start with Naked, but with a few survival tools. What was the list of tools that you had at your hand?
Sam Mouzer:
Well, it just so happens I have them right here. So I took my knife, which is I’ve left nice and grubby.
Steven Sashen:
Hold on, hold on. That is very much a Crocodile Dundee, this is a knife. That’s a hell of a knife.
Sam Mouzer:
Oh yeah. Oh, Crocodile Dundee would, if that kid had pulled this one out back on him, he’d have run.
Steven Sashen:
All right, so you had a knife. What else? So wait, wait, wait, wait. Did they give you some parameters about what you could bring with you or did they supply things? I don’t remember how it works.
Sam Mouzer:
It’s actually very interesting that you asked me that question, Steven. So if you turn up without anything, they will supply you with something which might not be the most optimal tool. He’ll probably give you a knife and a fire starter, but it won’t be one of your selection. And obviously the quality might not be guaranteed. So obviously it’s best that you bring your items from home. Usually each team will have a part a knife, a fire starter, and in our case, a bow as well that my partner had as her personal item. And I know you bow yourself, I believe, if I’m not mistaken? Have you been a hunter before?
Steven Sashen:
No, I actually, I haven’t.
Sam Mouzer:
Are you into archery? Did you do archery then? I’m sure I’ve heard it somewhere.
Steven Sashen:
I do archery, yeah. But I’ve never been a hunter as an archer. I’ve been a target shooter. And so something I adore, but it’s something that I think about often that if I had to be somewhere, archery would be my best choice for being able to get food.
Sam Mouzer:
Well, it just so happens that I’m in exactly the same boat. There’s no legal bow hunting in the UK, so it’s only target true for myself. And it was for my partner Lily, up until we ended up on our wild adventure. And she managed to bag us a jackrabbit, which was fantastic, and was definitely the big score, the big protein win that got us through to the end of the challenge. And I was so grateful to her and the rabbit for their efforts and their life.
Steven Sashen:
That’s a very Buddhist thing to be thankful for the rabbit, or to the-
Sam Mouzer:
Well, I think one of the lessons that the challenge has taught me or reaffirmed to me is how precious every morsel of protein we consume is and what goes into producing it and retrieving it. And I think a lot of people cringe at the mention of hunting. But if they knew what a lot of the creatures that end up in those little plastic cellophane packets of the supermarket went through to get there, and I think they would probably change their tune. And it’s made me actually think a lot more about that. Is a moment of suffering at the tip of the hunter’s arrow worse than living one’s entire existence in the cage? And I know which way I’ll rather go.
Steven Sashen:
Or even just your existence as, especially a prey animal, where your entire life is basically running away from things that could eat you. So it is a shame that we are so disconnected from the production of the food that we eat. It definitely would change people’s opinion. And many people think they would instantly become vegetarians. I don’t know that that’s true. I think they would instantly have a different understanding of what food is, what it means, what it does, and to have an active role in providing your own food. That’s a very rare thing for people these days.
Sam Mouzer:
And I think it’s something that we’re becoming more and more disconnected from as our civilization progresses and advances, which arguably is a good thing for the most part. But it still makes me think that maybe every individual should experience that or be given the opportunity to experience that. And as you say, I think there would be many people that, “I can’t do this. I would rather be vegan.” And fair play, I would totally understand that. I think there would be a lot of people that would respect their meat more and their protein and where it comes from going forward in their lives as a result of doing this challenge. And I think there would be those that would be very much interested in the quality, not just the quality of the meat itself, but the actual life that the animal has. And actually do believe those two things are very closely intertwined.
I must say that that jackrabbit we consumed was, if it was served up in a restaurant, it was the most beautiful and delicate because it was grass fed. It lived its life in the open air. Maybe it tasted a little bit more delicious because I’d starved for 10 days previous.
Steven Sashen:
There is that. There’s so many questions I have from just the very beginning of what you said, but I want to stick on this one. So how, if at all, has your diet changed since the challenge?
Sam Mouzer:
Well, I think in my house we’ve cut down, in our household, we’ve cut down a lot more on our food waste. And we now use a set meal delivery service, which allows us to select a much wider variety of food. But at the same time, it’s all proportioned. So there’s far less waste, if at all, any, except what might be left on one of my son’s plates, for example. But that’s been one of the main switches we’ve done in my household. And it’s actually working out to save us money as well, which is fantastic.
Steven Sashen:
After capturing and eating a rabbit, do you find that you even have, just whether you do it or not, have a willingness to experiment with other kinds of food that you hadn’t had before?
Sam Mouzer:
Yeah, definitely. When we were out there, the first thing we ate was a western diamond back rattlesnake. You could see on the episode, I had my trepidation about tucking into it. But again, and it was only the first night, so I wasn’t particularly hungry, but I knew I needed that fuel because I was going to be very hungry in the next 72 hours. And I was actually surprised and delighted with how delicious it was. It was very good. Again, we had 25 crawdads crawfish. And again, although they’re a tiny morsel again, delicious. And I do think that a lot of the foods to summarize heavily that people eat are making the frame do actually tend to be a delicacy somewhere. So yes, it’s definitely given me the mindset to be more open-minded about trying new foods and never saying no to anything.
Steven Sashen:
And if not a delicacy somewhere to the exact opposite. It’s something that people eat regularly, that we don’t eat, that we think that there’s something wrong with that. But it’s something very, very common. I think about larva and ants and insects of various kinds that in many places, especially Southeast Asia, very, very common. Around here, people just can’t wrap their brain around it.
Sam Mouzer:
And again, it’s part of my research. There is actually very few insects that we as humans can’t consume. Because during our evolutionary process, we ate a lot of insects. It was probably one of our staples. And on that note, I would like to say that grasshoppers are actually delicious, like little frazzled up chicken nuggets when they’re cooked.
Steven Sashen:
The world’s tiniest chicken drumstick. So, backing up a giant step to where we started. So you had your knife. What else did you have with you or what else were you given?
Sam Mouzer:
So knife, fire starter, and bow. And that’s it. You get a little satchel bag that has a mic pack in it, and your microphone is embedded inside your necklace. You’re given a very simple map and off you go.
Steven Sashen:
And where did they drop you?
Sam Mouzer:
So we were in the Sabinoso Region of New Mexico in the high desert. It was actually one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been in my life, actually. But it was very arid and it was a very brutal dry place. But the main thing that surprised me about it is how cold it got, especially as soon as the sun goes down-
Steven Sashen:
That’s where I was going to go.
Sam Mouzer:
Unimaginably. Yeah. I even alluded it to on the episode on the challenge, and I can’t believe I’m in the high desert, and I was dithering wetting this horrible rainstorm, freezing to death in the middle of the desert. I was just thinking, “How am I going to explain this to my family if they pulled me out with hypothermia from the desert?”
Steven Sashen:
Well, and PS, having watched the episode, I’m asking a bunch of these questions for the people who haven’t. So once you realized something that those of us who were living at altitude, we’re in Colorado experience on a daily basis, that exact thing is the sun goes down and suddenly the temperature drops 20, 30 degrees. Although sometimes, frankly, it’ll just do that in the middle of the day. One year, this is, oh, I don’t know, 10 years ago, I was living in an apartment right on Boulder Creek, and I would swim in the creek almost every day in the summer. And I get out of the creek, it’s like 85 degrees, and I bump into a friend of mine who I hadn’t talked to in a little while in a parking lot of our apartment complex. And by the time we were done talking, which is maybe two hours later, it was snowing. So temperature changes are very common for those of us at altitude. So what did you figure out about how to handle both temperatures, both extremes?
Sam Mouzer:
Well, the main thing was there’s very little time once arriving in the region that you’re going to undertake the challenge to actually being deployed onto it. So there’s no time for any real genuine acclimatization or anything of such. So the best you can do is keep on top of your hydration as best as you can. If it’s hot, try and get the water as cold as possible. When it goes cold at night, get the warm drinks down your throat and stay close to the fire. Lily, my partner, she constructed a beautiful long fire, which is actually normally used in subarctic regions. It’s quite popular in Alaska to build a long fire, the length of your body. But we actually found that was very, very good at night. And we also buried the fire pit about a foot down. So it heated the soil around us as well that we were lying on. And it took the edge off the cold is what I would say, enough for us to be able to endure it. But still, it was quite uncomfortable. But we’d have been in real trouble had we not had the long fire for the evenings and our hot drinks.
Steven Sashen:
I’m sure. And so obviously one of the things that people, how do I say this? In my world, in the natural movement world, I find it very entertaining, and by entertaining, I mean annoying, where I’ll say something about being barefoot or being in shoes that don’t have a whole bunch of cushioning, and people will jump to these ideas about what would happen if you were in bare feet or if you weren’t using arch support or motion control or whatever. That are situations that never happen. Here’s the simplest one. My favorite one is I talk about going barefoot. And they go, “What if you step in dog shit?” I go, “When’s the last time you did that?” And they go, “I don’t know, like 20 years ago.” It’s like, “Well then why are you going to start doing it now if you take off your shoes?” And so the idea of being in the desert, being dropped off without footwear is one of those things where people have a lot of ideas about how you won’t be able to survive from that alone. So talk about your feet and footwear.
Sam Mouzer:
So in the run up to the challenge I knew a couple of months before I was going, so I had time to prepare. And the first thing, and I’m not just saying this because I’m on your podcast, but I’ve worn Xero’s for some time actually. I remember seeing a video about Matt Graham who talked about the Xero Genesis. So obviously he does a lot of barefoot and sandal running in huarache, and talking about the tactility and being able to use your feet as an extra sensory apparatus, that kind of thing. And my first pair with Hannah, because I was a little bit anxious about having all my toes exposed and everything, so I liked the Hannah because they had that nice kind of suede cover and that kind of trainer look. And I wore those to destruction. But obviously because I knew I was going on the challenge, I went for the Genesis and purchased a pair of these simply because they’re the simplest design, literally just enough to cover my feet. And also I could study them in case I needed to make some.
Steven Sashen:
Well, so Matt Graham-
Sam Mouzer:
I hope that doesn’t get me in trouble with copyright or anything.
Steven Sashen:
No, no, no. It’s my favorite thing. I love it when I meet people who say, “I followed your instructions online, but I’ve never bought anything from you.” It’s like, “Perfect. That’s why I put everything online. I want people to have the experience.” And Matt Graham, for people who don’t know, Matt was on a show called Dual Survivor, and Matt replaced a guy named Cody Lundine. And Cody on one episode made a pair of huarache sandals. Now he didn’t do the lacing quite right, but they still worked for him. And this shouldn’t be surprising because this is basically what humans have done since the beginning of humans. So the Genesis sandal, it’s something to protect your foot, something to hold on your foot, that’s really all you need except for when you’re in a place where a little bit of insulation could come in handy.
Sam Mouzer:
Well, to be honest, they were the perfect shoe, if we’re going to call them that, to train my feet, because obviously they’re still very comfortable, but they have that slightly abrasive surface. And if I’m not mistaken, it’s kind of meant to be like an all terrain tire rubber. So obviously it’s very hard wearing. And just enough friction on the skin at the bottom of my feet to help generate that Naked and Afraid gold, those callouses, and just harden my feet ready for what was coming. But there’s a lot more to it than that. I think it’s not just the fact that it was preparing the surface, the epidermis on my feet. I think it’s also the nerve endings as well. As you allude to, because they’re so incredibly thin, you can feel every single pebble or stone you step on. Not in necessarily with any discomfort, but you know it’s there and it’s giving all those nerves a little snippet of what they’re going to experience.
Now, again, I’m not a doctor, but what I will say is I am convinced that had I undertaken the challenge without wearing these in the run up, I think it would’ve been a much more brutal experience for my feet. It would’ve been quite a shock for them to go into that environment. Because there was a lot of cacti, there was a lot of sharp stones, there was a lot of nasty pebbles, there was a lot of thorns. Now I won’t lie, I think within the first five days of being totally barefoot in the challenge, my feet hardened more than in a month of wearing the Genesis. That being said, every minute wearing this pair of shoes, definitely prepared my feet for that challenge. Got the patina on them that they needed to be able to stride out there. So I’m very grateful for you Steven.
Steven Sashen:
Oh my gosh, thank you. Well, people have a mistaken idea about the purpose of footwear or being barefoot. So callouses are not necessary, but what does happen is when you’re using your feet, especially on surfaces that are challenging, the skin thickens a little bit. But to your point, you become very sensitive to what you’re stepping on and your reflex arc and your brain get very good at making these micro adjustments to allow you to walk on things better or respond to things and step off of things more quickly if it’s something unpleasant. I remember when I first started going barefoot, there were things in my driveway that I couldn’t step on, and a year later I’m walking on them without a problem. And it’s not because I got numb, quite the opposite, it’s because my feet became more flexible. I was stepping in a way where I wasn’t just putting on my weight on one foot before I knew what I was stepping on. And I would argue that, but I have no proof for this, but it feels like my reflex arc improved as well. That I was just reflexively stepping off of things that were unpleasant more quickly than just kind of committing to that step and crossing my fingers. So there’s definitely that component.
What else did you discover though, once you were barefoot barefoot? Which is, it’s definitely a different experience. And in your situation, even more so.
Sam Mouzer:
At first, it is quite an experience. There’s walking around barefoot at home, there’s going barefoot on the beach, there’s maybe slipping your shoes off for a barefoot walk here and there. But again, psychologically you’re going to prepare, you’re going to think about the place where you’re going to slip your shoes off, even if you’re on your hike and it’s normally going to be on the grass, obviously that’s not an option out there. Obviously, it’s the whole thing’s a lot to get used to. I’m not really a walking round naked kind of guy.
Steven Sashen:
Well, let me interject. I am a walking around naked kind of guy, but only in the confines of my house. After that-
Sam Mouzer:
Yes, in your home. But yeah, being where it was pretty much flat from horizon to horizon, being totally butt naked was quite a thing. And then obviously stepping off. You’re thinking about the cameras, you’re thinking about everything. And then all of a sudden, one of my peers is, another survivor has said this, the moment that first cactus needle pierces your flesh, the first thorn, the first sharp rock, everything’s suddenly very real. And that was a space, what my feet told me about the challenge very quickly, how much trouble I was in. I was concerned about the heat on the ground as well, and am I going to blister up and what have you? And actually again, I think my feet performed very well. Now whether that’s the preparation I did in these beforehand, I don’t know. Perhaps the circulation being improved was removing the heat from the pad of my foot more efficiently. I don’t know. But yeah, very quickly my feet became acclimatized.
And I would say there was maybe five or six occasions throughout the challenge where, as you say, I wasn’t probing correctly with my feet. I was distracted on other things and I trod on a cactus or stubbed a toe or something like that. That being said, nothing significant out there, no thorns I couldn’t pull out. And to be honest, out of all my body, my feet performed fantastically. I was very impressed with them out there actually. Aside from a few bumps, scrapes and stubs, all went well with them. And I also think as well with the Xero elevation footwear is adjust the musculature, the muscle structure in your legs. So obviously if you’re in normal trainers, your heels are quite high up and your muscles are sat differently. So I actually think I got into that kind of, there was no serious discomfort or anything as my body adjusted its gate to being barefoot. So again, it definitely reduced the shock to my system. And it was one less thing for me to worry about so I could focus on more important things like the food, the shelter.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, the little things. You mentioned the circulation possibly being a part of it. This is something that I hope someday somebody studies because I’m also convinced that your circulation does change. You develop more capillaries in the soul feet when you start spending more time barefoot. When we started the company, it was in November, and I was just kind of curious how long would it be that I’d be okay wearing sandals or going barefoot. And the next thing I knew it was spring. And over time it seems like the capillarization in my feet has changed because when I’m out and it’s cold, my hands and my face can be really cold, but my feet typically feel fine. And someday I hope someone actually does a study on how you do acclimatize. Clearly humans do that because we live in all different environments. But to see that happening in real time, that almost evolutionary process would be really, really cool to study, I think.
Sam Mouzer:
Yes, I’d be inclined to agree, that would be quite fascinating to find out what is it that the cold didn’t seem to bite my toes as much until I’d lost quite a significant amount of weight. There’s definitely something going on. I’d also be intrigued to know how quickly does the process reverse, if at all. If you stop and go back to-
Steven Sashen:
That’s interesting. I wonder if it’s sort of building muscle. It takes quite a bit of effort to build it, but once you have it, maintaining it is very simple. So you have to lift, let’s call it three or four times a week to generate enough stimulus to build muscle. But once you have it, you can lift once a week and that’s enough of a signal to your body to hold onto it. So I wonder if there’s a similar effect to that. I would think that there would be, because the idea that when you’ve made any sort of adaptation that it would revert quickly, seems a little it non-optimal. If you’re going to make that change, part of your body might be going, “This could stay this way or it could get worse.”
Sam Mouzer:
I think my theory on it would be we just see the sofa effect in microcosm. A fancy pair of trainers with all the squidgy pads in it is just a really comfy couch for our trotters, for our feet. And that’s nice, but at some stage you have to get off the couch and actually, I don’t know what you’d call workout mats for your feet, maybe, to give them that exercise, to give them that experience. And I hope no one watching is thinking, “I don’t want to give my feet a workout.” It’s the best thing you can possibly do. There’s no going back for me now, that’s for sure.
Steven Sashen:
Your feet are your foundation. This is screamingly obvious. And people don’t realize that their feet have become weak except for the fact that they somehow think that they need all this support and all this cushioning, all this padding, which just makes no sense. But part of it is also the industry convincing people that your feet are fundamentally flawed and therefore you need something. But anyway, be that as it may. Now, let me jump onto a totally different thing. Speaking as one reality person to another, although our experience was like 45 minutes in Shark Tank, versus 21 days in the high desert of New Mexico, what can you, and I say this knowing there’s some things where you may be legally bound to not answer this question. What can you tell us about the difference between reality TV and reality? In other words, what happened that we didn’t see on camera?
Sam Mouzer:
Well, the main thing to remember is actually what happens is genuinely, I can only speak for our experience as opposed to the experiences others because I wasn’t there. But is how everything becomes condensed and it creates a narrative, which you might not have perceived so much when we were out there. I knew that certain things I got as we were cleaning the snake, it erupted its bowels all over me. The moment it happened, you can see me look at the cameras just to go, “Well, that’s going to be on tellie.” There’s those moments.
But then there’s other things that you would never even contemplate that they would be able to get in. But the main thing to remember is every hour we’re out there on a mean average basis that the audience is going to see five minutes between two and five minutes of each hour. So obviously everything becomes much more compressed, much more caricatured, dare I say. That being said, what you see on the screen is a fair representation of what happened in the order that it happened. And so I can’t speak for any other reality show, but all I can say about Naked and Afraid is that it is the realest thing I’ve ever experienced. It’s almost like there’s a disconnect between doing the challenge, which my mind kind of prepared for it and approached it like, I’m going to participate in my favorite sport.
It’s not an endurance sport that’s over distance. It’s an endurance sport. That’s over time, which is an interesting take on an athletic feat if you want to call it that. Because it’s a test of your mind and your metabolism and how you’re going to expend that currency of body fat and muscle or energy, whatever you have, to best effect. But I really do think that what happened out there is the episode is a fair reflection of that. Which to be honest, when I got there, at first you’re thinking, “Oh, is there going to be hotels or what’s this going to be like?” You get there and they say, “You’re here, we’ll see you here in 21 days.” And it all gets very, very real, very, very quickly. Tell me about this experience you’ve had. What was the Shark Tank business?
Steven Sashen:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sam Mouzer:
You’ve been on Shark Tank?
Steven Sashen:
Well, ours was much easier because we’re in the tank for about 40, 45 minutes. But what you see on camera is actually very different than what actually happened for real. So because we have 45 minutes gets cut down to about basically seven or eight minutes, really. And we were very clear about what we did or didn’t want, the kind of deal we were willing to make. So whenever one of the sharks said, “I’m out,” and they cut to us going, “What?” We pretty much didn’t do that because we didn’t care. We were just going to go on to the next one. And so what you see is not the order in which things happened. The show makes it look like it’s a normal conversation about your business, but it is far from a normal conversation.
The Sharks are always trying to say something where they gotcha. And they’re often not paying very much attention to you. They’re in their own private Idaho just trying to figure out how they can make good television about them. And so they’re coming up with one-liners that they think are going to make it on the preview. And one of the sharks will ask you five questions. And then a minute later, another one will ask you 10 questions. And if you switch, the first one gets mad. And if you don’t switch, the second one gets mad. And of course Barbara’s line, her opening line was, “I hated you from the moment you walked out here.” And I just laughed-
Sam Mouzer:
Oh my goodness.
Steven Sashen:
What are you are you going to say? But what I can tell you about Shark Tank, and this is a behind the scenes thing, is when we walked out of there, I just turned to Lena and I said, “Boy, that’s not what we expected.” And I could think of, I mean, I have a master’s degree in film. I could think of a million different ways of editing that to make us look like complete idiots if they cut it the way they could. And so we talked to our producers and mentioned that and they said, “No, no, no, we don’t want anyone to look bad. We’re a Disney owned network. We want people to want to be on the show.” If someone looks bad, it was way worse in real life. And I had two stories that echoed that.
One is someone that we know who was on the show. She was so upset about how badly it went that she almost divorced her husband over it because he decided not to be on the show with her. So she felt that he threw her out to the lions. When the show aired, it looked pretty good because she’s a smart, funny, attractive woman. And there were a couple things that she answered a question badly, but mostly look good. I have another friend who likes to claim that they gave him a really bad edit and made him look like a complete ass. And I have said to him, “I know you pretty well. You got a really good edit.”
I like the guy, but he’s not fit for human consumption. And by the way, the people who might be listening, there’s like four people who might think I’m talking about them, you’re probably all wrong. But anyway, so that’s the difference. So for us-
Sam Mouzer:
And some of those people are the best people.
Steven Sashen:
Oh yeah, absolutely everyone. Great television, great television. But backing up, for us, people said to us, “Hey, you should be on Shark Tank,” after we’d started our business. And we looked into it and went, “Wow, we should.” What was it that made you want to be on the show on Naked and Afraid? And what was the process of auditioning, et cetera, until you got on the show?
Sam Mouzer:
That’s a very good question actually. So I’ve actually been a fan of the show since the beginning. I’ve always liked survival shows. We got to talking about Matt Graham earlier on. I obviously watched Jewel and followed him quite closely on Facebook, which is how I first got introduced to Xero’s. But yeah, I remember watching EJ Snyder stride out into the Savannah doing the pilot, and I was just, “What is this? This is the wildest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. This is absolutely crazy. Who’d watch this? Oh yeah, me.” And I remember and I was just hooked from as soon as it started.
And I was posting casually on Facebook because not many people watch it in the UK. “Does anyone watch this show? Does anyone else watch Naked and Afraid?” And I got invited to join a private fan group. We’ve only got about 14,000 members, but most of the cast are in there as well, folks that have been on the show. And I got to interacting with all the cast and all the legends that have done a dozen challenges each. And it was amazing, and a great community full of rich characters and what have you. And I started applying for the show to do a challenge, several times with various levels of effort. And it just so happened that my love and interest for the show, I’m a moderator for this fan group now. I share things there, interview Cas, we arrange lives.
So my love of the show, and I suppose the things that have happened, my life in the run-up to it, everything from childhood interest or scales and army cadets and I had a brief career in the military as well, all kind of culminated in, I suppose if anyone can be qualified to give me a chance at maybe getting to the end. And it all came together. And last February I was contacted. I thought it was a wind up at first, I thought it was some kind of scam because obviously I do stuff with the moderators. And I ended up searching for the person that emailed me and I was like, “Oh my goodness, they’re in the fan group, it’s real.”
And it went from four years of absolutely nothing happening to everything happening inside of a week. You get EJ Snyder, who’s one of the best, greatest survivalists in the world brings you up. And I’d met him before and obviously I got my background, he knows my background. He’s like, “Yeah, I’m just ringing you up to do your survival rating. This is just a formality at this stage.” And I was like, “Oh my God. Terrifying.” And lo and behold, by the autumn, there I was out in New Mexico up to my waist in snake poop and crawdads, running around with my Austrian survival goddess and away we went.
Steven Sashen:
So you’re up to your butt in snake poop. What were you doing about human poop?
Sam Mouzer:
That’s actually a good question. Now I’ve been listening to the podcasts and as I said, I’ve been a fan of the show for a very long time. Apparently there’s two camps in the old, the Poo Crew. So there’s some folks that apparently will just barely dig a cat scrape and just right next to the shelter. No, I’m sorry, but I would be moving house if my partner had done that or myself. Thankfully we were both, stuff how many calories it takes, half a mile, nice peaceful spot, birds tweeting, lots of deep zen breathing. And day 17, all the magic happened. Covered it with some rocks and had a lovely bath in one of the little pools and went about my day.
Steven Sashen:
Oh my God, I love it. I love it. I can’t even think of how to wrap this up because we can keep doing this all day long. Oh, here’s one last question because you kind of referenced it. What changed with your body from day one to day 21, and then what changed after you got home?
Sam Mouzer:
That’s actually a very good question, and the answer is a lot. Some things quite significant, some things more subtle. So obviously my weight, my body mass changed. And again, while we’re on the subject feet and gate and walking. I actually think that, you’ve seen the episode, I did put on as much weight as I safely could to participate. And by day 10, it’s just gone. And so obviously as the challenge progresses, the difference in the mechanics of your body, imagine being a bipedal robot that’s mass changes throughout the process. So it actually helps in a sense because as you alluded to earlier on, you putting less pressure because there’s less mass in your knee, but your gate has to change and your weight shifts. And again, when your body’s switched to full ketosis, and it really is, it’s not just your thought, it’s also the function of your body.
If you and I were out there, Stephen, we’d be having this conversation, but it would take three times longer, but we wouldn’t know that because subjectively, our brains clock speed will have slowed down, that our time is subjectively still feeling the same. But after day five, the days just fly by. And it’s because your subjective time, again, I’m not a neuroscientist, but I think that because of the ketosis, your thoughts slow down, still the same, if anything, a little bit clearer, much more slow, much more measured. And I think even once you’re back to the land of carbs and processed sugar, you can still actually maintain a degree of that. I want to call it like a zen state. I found it actually quite euphoric. But my body physically, I felt the lack of protein around day 15, 16. And I felt my joints beginning to become quite cliquey because obviously we store a lot of our protein in liquid in our joints. Once that’s gone, my body felt like it was 80 years old.
But just to wrap up what you asked me, when I got back after three or four meals, after about a week of being home, some good food, a good variety of food, and loads of protein, my wife told me, she said, I looked like I was 21 again. Effectively it’d been an impressive fast and cleanse. And I got back, and to be honest, obviously I looked extremely emaciated when I got out. But once hydrated and a couple of good meals down my neck, I looked in the best shape I’ve looked at for years. So it’s not all negative.
Steven Sashen:
So you need to combine Naked and Afraid and The Biggest Loser, and you’ve got something. It’s funny you mentioned your thoughts slowing down and time changing. I just read about the woman who as an experiment, they had her underground for 600 days. And when they said, “All right, time to come out,” she was stunned. She thought like 150, maybe 160 days had passed. She had no idea that it was that long. She also said she would’ve happily stayed and never left because it was just so pleasant for her. She had no contact with the outside world other than they would give her food, they would take out her waste and trash. And I don’t know how she got books and things to knit and whatnot. She had very few activities, but just the idea that you would be that disconnected from time, and again, now she’s underground, so there’s no sun, there’s no night. But to be one quarter of the way offered or whatever that is, 75% off about how much time has passed is almost inconceivable. So your story is fascinating because you still had days and nights, but still the feeling of time moving differently is really intriguing.
Sam Mouzer:
Yeah, I think our brains can do a lot of things and our bodies, whether for me, I’m not a duty, it’s all one thing for me. I think our brains and bodies can do a lot of things. And to summarize heavily, once your ass knows your brain’s not quitting, it will adapt. It will figure something out. It will build a house inside its head, or subjectively slow time or whatever it needs to do to get by. I didn’t experience it, but I know when I was in the forces actually, get to do a horrible exercise where you have to dig trenches like it’s World War I and all manually. And I remember some of my colleagues, some of my comrades, hallucinating just from the sheer exhaustion of it. But of the two or three people that did, they weren’t unpleasant. They were all very amusing things that they described experiencing. And I think, again, it’s a case of once your body knows your brain’s not quitting, it’ll do whatever it has to get you by. And if that’s manifesting a giant beaver helping you dig your trench, which is what my colleague reported, you’ll get there.
Steven Sashen:
I just like the idea that it wouldn’t occur to you that it’s unusual that not only is it a beaver, but it’s a giant beaver. I think that’s like, yeah, it seems-
Sam Mouzer:
Yeah. When we discussed it afterwards, he said what horrified him the most after the experience and after we’d all had a good feed and a good sleep was he found it was like when you’re in a dream and the most wild thing can happen, but it seems perfectly normal-
Steven Sashen:
Totally normal.
Sam Mouzer:
“All right, mate. Yeah, cheers.”
Steven Sashen:
Oh my God, that’s great.
Sam Mouzer:
Oh, goodness. But yeah, I’ve had a great time chatting to you. And have you got anything else you want to talk about Steven?
Steven Sashen:
There’s one last question that occurs to me. So now that you’ve had that experience, does it inspire you to do anything next? Whether it’s doing something more, something different, or never again? Because I got to tell you, this is a weird version for us, in Shark Tank at we are in season four. I think maybe by season five, beginning of season six, someone in our private Facebook group for Shark Tank alumni asked, “How many of you still watched the show?” And the answer was nobody. Because we know how the sausage is made and we know the backstory, et cetera. So for you, after being into survivalist things and then having this experience, what if anything, is next?
Sam Mouzer:
Again, that is a great question. So now we’re into the territory where I can’t talk too much, but I’m definitely well up for another challenge. I’d go tomorrow if I was called upon. And I’ve decided to adopt an always and never policy, which I think is what they actually do with nuclear weapons. But I think it works with Naked and Afraid challenges as well, which is to always, always be ready to go at a moment’s notice, but to never assume that I will be. And that way it can keep my humility, I can maintain humility, and not let hubris take over. But at the same time have the sense to make sure that my body’s tuned and whatever item I might take is prepared. And I think that’s just a sensible way to move forward. And obviously that my feet are hard and well-equipped and trained, ready for whatever they may face next in the future.
Steven Sashen:
A, I love that. And B, when you said that, I kind of got chills because I’ve barely mentioned, I think on the podcast, I had what we affectionately refer to as a medical situation, where it actually is still kind of going on. But for a period of time, for about four weeks, there was definite concern that I would’ve a very short amount of time to live. And-
Sam Mouzer:
Oh my goodness, Steven.
Steven Sashen:
Oh no, it was the greatest because it was sort of always a never. So, it’s a similar thing of I’m not expecting I’m going to die at any moment, but I’m simultaneously expecting that I could die at any moment. And it is the greatest way to live that I’ve ever experienced. Now I’m not there 24/7. There’s times where someone’s doing 10 miles an hour under the speed limit in front of me. Not happy about that. When I’m walking the dog and it’s pouring rain, I’m not so happy about that. I don’t like it when people get in front of me, in my way. Going to airports, I want to go quickly. People in my way bothers me still.
But even through that, there’s an undercurrent that has changed that it’s kind of ironic. My dad, two weeks before he died, made a comment to me. He said, “I don’t feel like I could died any moment.” And I said, “Oh, I do every day.” But that was more conceptual, and now it’s having had this experience, it’s more real. And I imagine there’s a similar thing for you, it’s like for always a never that’s a fine concept. But now you’ve lived it and that it’s probably more visceral, more tangible.
Sam Mouzer:
Well, the ultimate truth of our existence is that it’s going to end at some point, unfortunately, and it’s probably going to sting a bit. And the only question is what are you’re going to do in the meantime? But one thing I will say is a guarantee that every meal you have from now on, since your scare, every breakfast, every bowl of cereal you eat in the morning will taste better than the one that was the day before.
Steven Sashen:
It is the biggest thing that’s changed for me. Exactly that. Every meal, I’m so appreciative of it. Even if it’s mediocre, it just makes me crazily happy and more than it ever did. I’ve always been sort of a sucker for good food, but every meal is totally, totally delightful. As is, and this is going to sound like the opposite, as is every evening when I’m sitting on the couch with my wife and our dog watching television. It’s like, I think if I knew that I was going to die tomorrow, what would I want to do tonight? Sit on the couch with Lena and Paolo and watch a good movie. That’s all I need.
Sam Mouzer:
And do you know what? That’s wonderful. And would it be so bad? It’s going to happen at some point. And on the sofa with my wife and my dog watching a movie, sounds good to me.
Steven Sashen:
It’s a good one. It’s a good one.
Sam Mouzer:
Yeah, like, “Oh, bloody yellow bus,” that one’s pretty good.
Steven Sashen:
Well, Sam, if people want to find out more about what you’re up to or they want to see the show or anything else about getting in touch with you or whatever you can think of, what can you tell people about how to do any of those things to find out more, get in touch, et cetera, et cetera?
Sam Mouzer:
So you can check out Naked and Afraid, it’s always available. The whole catalog is on the Discovery Plus app. I believe you get a small free trial, and it’s a very minimal subscription charge, and there’s tons of great content on there. Obviously I will, season nine slash 15, episode one, Welcome To America. It also airs on Discovery Channel regularly now, I’m assuming with reruns. I’m best found on Facebook. Sam Mouzer, you can’t miss me. And the fan group that I moderate for is Fans of Naked and Afraid and Excel. You search that on Facebook, you’ll find us. Tell them you want to join, answer the questions, tell them your favorite survivalist is Sam, they’ll let you in.
Steven Sashen:
And just when people are looking up on Facebook, it’s Sam, S-A-M, Mouzer, M-O-U-Z-E-R. So-
Sam Mouzer:
That’s correct, yes.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. So this has been-
Sam Mouzer:
Wonderful.
Steven Sashen:
This has been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, I don’t know what to say beyond that. It’s wonderful to hear what you went through, what you learned, what you discovered. I hope people get inspired in some ways. At the very least, try a grasshopper. You never know.
Sam Mouzer:
Steven, honestly, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. And in regards to that last thing that you said, don’t worry about things that you can’t control buddy. And you seem like that kind of guy who’s really good at that.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, except again, when there’s people in my way in front of me, that one, I don’t worry about it. But I did have the fantasy that wouldn’t bother me any longer. And it’s still there. That one’s stuck. But you know what, but I’m not second guessing it. I’m not making it a problem that it’s still something that annoys me. It’s just the way it is. And maybe it’ll go away, maybe not, but I don’t really care. And that’s the difference. So it’s unpleasant, but it’s not suffering is the best way I can say it.
Anyway, on that weird note, for everyone else, thank you so much for being on this episode or listening to this episode. A reminder, go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com, find all the previous episodes, all the ways you’re going to interact with us. And if you have any recommendations, anybody you think should be on the show, any comments, any questions, any criticism, any wonderful things, whatever it is, that doesn’t matter, you can drop me an email, move, M-O-V-E @jointhemovementmovement.com. But most importantly, until next time, go out, have fun and live life feet first.